OMG! The RUSSIANS are a THREAT to us with all their hacking stuff!


Note: following DallasDoc's example, I thought I'd publish this here before doing so at Dailykos, which was my original intention. Yes, I published an earlier version of this argument here back in October.


Are we talking about acts of war?

Should America launch retaliatory measures?

(Head shaking…)

Enough of all this hysterical arm-waving, warmongers. In what may be a completely futile effort (given the current makeup of the Dailykos community), I want to offer a voice of Sanity and Reason to counter all of the jingoistic rhetoric we’ve been hearing lately.

For the sake of argument, let’s just go ahead and assume the worst-case-scenario that the warmongers are advancing---that Russian government employees did the hacking at Putin’s direction.

Just how big of a deal would this be, if we knew with absolute certainty that it was true? Well, from an historical perspective, there is actually nothing in this possibility that should give any normal American actual cause for alarm, given certain facts that most educated members of the political class really ought to be aware of.

The single most important morsel of truth that MSM sources are willfully ignoring is the fact that all governments around the world that are major players in international affairs have for quite some time been doing their utmost to perfect their abilities to both 1) hack into the secure sites of other countries and 2) protect themselves from the same.

It would indeed be utterly insane for them to not do so.

We know this. We’ve always known this. Contrary to the alarmist language and affected emotion the warmongers are currently using to stoke this ‘crises’---created out of whole cloth---there are no surprises here that our national security people have uncovered in a shocking moment of discovery.

Now you would think, from the accusations the warmongers are pushing forward, that the United States government would never do such a thing to another country, i.e., try to influence the outcome of their democratic elections.

After all, if we were guilty, wouldn’t we have to condemn ourselves in the same breath we are using to condemn others?

The actual historical truth of the matter is that the United States has a long history of using the CIA to do just that if/when our ‘decision-makers’ perceived it would be in America's interests to do so:

In the late 1940s, the newly established CIA cut its teeth in Western Europe, pushing back against some of the continent's most influential leftist parties and labor unions. In 1948, the United States propped up Italy's centrist Christian Democrats and helped ensure their electoral victory against a leftist coalition, anchored by one of the most powerful communist parties in Europe. CIA operatives gave millions of dollars to their Italian allies and helped orchestrate what was then an unprecedented, clandestine propaganda campaign: This included forging documents to besmirch communist leaders via fabricated sex scandals, starting a mass letter-writing campaign from Italian Americans to their compatriots, and spreading hysteria about a Russian takeover and the undermining of the Catholic Church.

Our political leaders have consistently shown that they are not above doing such things. Our leadership class has a long history of not only fomenting political revolutions/insurrections in other nations, but also of attempting to arrange the assassination of the leaders of other countries when we thought it would be in our interests to do so.

Given these indisputable facts re: our political history, it is indeed profoundly hypocritical for American politicians to now declare that efforts by other countries to do the same thing to us are both outrageous and alarming.

The ultimate truth is that since forever all nations have always tried to influence the outcome of elections in other countries if 1) they believe their vital interests are at stake, and 2) they have the means to do so.

The only thing that has changed over the past 40 years is that the "means to interfere" available to technologically advanced nations has changed. Back in the day, it usually involved getting spies/agents in the target country and then finding ways to get money to the political opposition in ways that are not obvious.

Now---with the institutionalization of The Internet---the methods of 'influencing' are different. Hacking foreign websites is more cost-efficient than the methods used in the old days to gather intelligence and 'influence' political developments in other countries.

So in light of these historical facts, the great momentous issue that is supposedly generating a great deal of alarm in Washington---the possibility that Russia might have tried to influence the outcome of our elections---is not any kind of news that can be rationally considered shocking or even scary.

It is not unexpected. It does not present a threat to the American people. And it is certainly not even remotely serious enough of a matter to actually risk going to war over.

Sure, if the Russians (or the Israelis, or any other country for that matter) had sent a team of assassins to kill one of our candidates, that would be quite a different matter entirely, but this 'revealing of political secrets' accusation doesn’t rise to anywhere near that level of seriousness.

No, my friends, we Americans do not have any right to insist that other countries forswear methods of interference that we ourselves have been guilty of with respect to other countries.

And thus, there is no rational basis for any of these expressions of outrage that America’s legion of warmongers are currently voicing at the type of 'interference' that the Russians are being accused of.

. . .

In light of this broader understanding of the ‘Fear Russia’ messaging you’ve been hearing lately, I would suggest to you that there really are some people we need to fear when we start to hear the MSM repeating the demonization of Russia rhetoric that we now hear almost every day.

I’m referring to the warmongers in both political parties who are using this ‘issue’ to stir up anti-Russian sentiment, to prepare the American public for war against Russia, or at least for the high-stakes brinkmanship games that the warmonger class loves to play on the international stage.

You know, like when they start talking tough about our willingness to risk nuclear war over insanely stupid things, like who has sovereignty rights over the eastern Ukraine, or Taiwan.

It is indeed the warmongers who threaten us. The ‘patriots’ within our political class who are always pointing a finger at some country on the other side of the world that we are supposed to believe is a great threat to the American people.

In order for them to play their games with America’s military assets, they know they need to gin up broad public support. They know that this objective is rather easy to accomplish if/when they are able to persuade MSM voices to regularly depict the leaders of the countries they want to muscle around as malevolent ‘dictators’ that America must save innocent people from by either wielding its awesome military might, or simply threatening to do so.

It seemingly never occurs to most luminaries within the MSM that it might be a good idea for them to question with a bit of fearful suspicion the great patriots of our political class when they are solemnly seeking to convince us that we all need to support another noble cause in which we use our weapons of war to defeat the Bad Guys on the other side of the ocean who either threaten us or 'our friends.'

The reason we should fear these people is something that becomes apparent when we reflect on the frightful lesson the German people learned when they trusted the most patriotic voices in their culture back in the 1930's, those who were oh-so-impressed with the military capabilities of the German people, which were indeed quite awesome at the time.

What the German people learned through the horrors of war was that the greatest threat they faced back then was not the Communists or the Jewish 'back-stabbers' they had been warned about, but was rather the extraordinarily proud and boastful legion of patriots in their country who presented themselves as the only collective within Germany who could save the German people from [various named threats] with the military muscle that was available to them.

They were the people who were ultimately responsible for getting nearly six million German citizens killed, for the utter destruction of their country’s economy, for the unpleasant reality that their nation’s reputation around the world was destroyed for several generations.

The lesson their suffering teaches us, my friends, is that quite often the greatest threat that a people will ever face is not some Other out there that they’ve heard rumors about, but is actually the manipulative other-bashing that spews from their own political/military leaders.

Think about that the next time you are listening to the pious bleatings of the 'noble purpose' crowd, who are oh-so-certain that America's military/political leaders would never make the kind of fatal miscalculations of that ultimately doomed so many other nations in history that had invested total faith in, and reverence for, their country’s military accomplishments/leadership.

Why should we believe our political leaders are different? Well, it's because we are so special, aren’t we?

(Head shaking) That oh-so-scary article of faith in American exceptionalism.

God (Reason, Sanity) Help Us!

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I might also observe that the only facts we’ve been provided with from CIA/FBI/warmonger sources is that there is evidence that the DNC and other political entities were hacked. Yes, it’s true that at least some within the CIA suspect that ‘The Russians’ did the hacking and for nefarious purposes, but no proof of such has been provided by any source.

It has merely been an accusation, a ‘hunch’ if you will, that is based primarily on a recognition that The Russians definitely appeared to have sufficient motive + the capability to execute the ‘interference’ actions that have been alleged.

For reasons they are keeping to themselves, the warmongers are intentionally neglecting to mention the other parties who also had both the capability and sufficient motive to A) hack the DNC, and B) disseminate the contents of Podesta’s emails to WikiLeaks.

A short list would include: the Republicans, anti-Hillary Democrats, anti-Hillary Independents, and lone actor expert hackers like Anonymous.

But even if some as-yet-unrevealed evidence showed that the Russians did do the hacking, there is still no basis for assuming that they did it for any reason other than to simply ‘collect intelligence’ in the same innocent manner that the CIA and MI6 and Mossad do such things for their chief executives.

Of course, these big gaps in our knowledge are not a problem for the warmongers who are quite happy to fill in the blanks and use what looks like an ideal opportunity to further demonize The Russian Foe before a national audience.

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James Kroeger

Bisbonian's picture

So. The MSM is screaming at the top of their lungs that Russian intelligence, be it the FSR or the GRU or both, on the direct orders of Vladimir Putin, hacked DNC emails and gave them to Wikileaks in order to hurt Hillary Clinton’s election chances.

So I, and you, and the American people, and the whole goddamn world, should channel the old social democrat from Minnesota and scream “WHERE’S THE BEEF???!!!”

Not the fucking tofu, where is the gods-damned beef? Where is the evidence? I’m from Missouri! SHOW ME! Actually I’m not from Missouri, though my ancestors helped settle St. Genevieve, but never mind, you know what I mean.

Show me one single thread of hard evidence that the Russians hacked the DNC email servers and gave the information to Wikileaks. Show me exactly HOW they did this. Fuck your confidential sources; you are alleging that the Russians did something that justifies a response that may well result in a nuclear war, or if not, justifies questioning the legitimacy of the presidential election. Show me the IP’s of the hackers. Prove to me that Russian intelligence agents were the actual hackers. Prove to me that Vladimir Putin ordered the hacking. Prove to me that Putin acted to prevent Hillary Clinton from Her Turn in the White House.

I’m not even asking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Prove it to me by the preponderance of the evidence. That basically means, prove to me that there is a greater than a 50/50 chance, by hard evidence, by fucking facts, that the Russians hacked the DNC email server for the purpose of helping to defeat Hillary Clinton in November. Satisfy Jack Webb in Dragnet or Peter Falk in Colombo.

“Unnamed sources close to (name the intelligence agency)” are not evidence. Hysterical bloviations from the New York Times are not evidence. Talking heads quoting “reliable sources” on any broadcast or cable network are not evidence.

In legal terms, all of the aforementioned sources are HEARSAY. In a court of law, hearsay evidence is not allowed. It is inadmissible. A jury cannot even consider it, for good reason. Yet that is exactly what our corporate media is reporting as indisputable fact.

These accusations don’t only violate the English common law rules of evidence, they violate common sense, rationality, and the traditions of my particular ancestors going at least as far back as the Magna Carta. And I like what the Magna Carta started. I’m defending and applying English common law, so don’t you dare accuse me of being a Russian propagandist!

So put up or shut up. Every American, no matter who they voted for, no matter their ideology, should be demanding the same.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

In related news, did anyone catch this report from the local CBS affiliate in Atlanta?

Reality Check: 5 Problems with CIA Claim That Russia Hacked DNC/Podesta emails

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNIrPLHVfdI width:400]

I liked the very last part of his report:

So what you need to know is that on top of all these questions is one fundamental issue that everyone is missing. The claim is that Russia decided to hack the election not by altering voting results, but by making public actual emails from the Clinton campaign and the DNC.

"Look - I've said this before and I will say it again. How bizarre is it that the argument is not that the Russians were trying to influence the election through lies or electronic voting, but rather the claim - if you really boil it down - is that the Russians swayed the election for Donald Trump by revealing the truth about the Clinton campaign and the truth about the DNC."

So in other words . . .

In order to sway the election the "Russians" needed a weapon. The emails were the weapon. But everyone knows that a weapon is ineffective without ammunition.

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Alligator Ed's picture

combined intellect of residual kossacks. Of course the Russians wanted Trump to win rather than crazed war-monger Killary. Based on paper-thin accusations without proof, Medusa threatens military retaliation against one of her favorite targets, one which she hates anyway. A bit much. If w2e were to declare war on every nation-state that has cyberattacker us, the we would declare war on 75% of the planet, including the Vatican. And, if those nations we've hacked declare war on us for doing the same thing, things get pretty ugly really fast.

Medusa could do not wrong. True she was the second most disliked presidential candidate in American history before the election, at which time she obtained the dubious honor of being the least likable presidential candidate ever. True Bernie smeared her by telling the truth. True she didn't turn over all her emails when subpoenaed. True she lied about Benghazi. True Bernie was not in favor of dismantling ACA. True massive election fraud occurred in NY and CA during the primaries. True she used pay for play extensively during SOS tenure. True she and Sick Willie had the most brazen money laundering scheme in the modern world. True she admits to public positions and private positions on all things political. Sure she wants to return financial supervision to the criminals who wrecked the economy in 2008. Plus lots more inconvenient truths, any of which should have torpedoed her campaign.

But no, Vladimir sent secret agents to all US precincts to stuff the ballot boxes. Why even some Democratic poll watchers became suspicious when some ballots were filled out in Cyrillic text. As you know this ballot tampering went unreported by the Main Stream Fraudcasters until all the ballots were counter. Then, led by Don Lemon and Rachel Shadow, this massive fraud upon the public was first reported after Her lost. All these Russian agents got into the US despite Obama's careful screening of the Syrian refugees, who flew in direct from Moscow.

I could go on but I need some more antacid.

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bong hits. That's what you need, bong hits.
This shit is too trippy otherwise.

peace

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

MarilynW's picture

Of course revealing the undeniable truth is more dangerous to the people involved than telling falsehoods. So they fall on their own petard.

I believe that there was a hack by the Russians. I think the case has been made by the [not enough] proof that has been offered in NYTimes. Yes, yes I know Judith Miller and WMD but that was in 2002-3. It may have turned voters away from Clinton and thereby effected the US election.

I am not afraid of a world war, I am afraid of the war on our environment. Some scientists tell us we now have 10 years before epic atmospheric damage changes everything. In the meantime with Trump in the WH we are in more grave climate danger than ever. I intend to keep my eyes on the prize: our survival and not get bogged down with political feuds. There's only one fight I am interested in - how to keep the dangerous Bumbler-in-chief from hastening our destruction.

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To thine own self be true.

I've not seen a shred of proof.

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MarilynW's picture

Obama is supposed to order an in depth investigation.

Here's the New York Times investigation
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/us/politics/russia-hack-election-dnc.html
by David E. Sanger, Scott Shane, Eric Lipton, professional writers who are taking the word of the CIA/FBI. According to majority opinion on this blog, they are all liars because in 2002-3 in the lead up to the illegal invasion of Iraq, NYT published lies about Iraq's WMD by Judith Miller and the CIA/FBI also lied to support Bush's position on the invasion .

Also according to majority opinion on this blog, Obama is willing to lie about Russian hacking of DNC emails etc. and end his term in office without giving a thought to his legacy when "the truth" comes out.

Even Bill Moyers believes the above report, is he lying too? or is he just gullible like me?

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To thine own self be true.

detroitmechworks's picture

Of course they have evidence, which they can't show us. C'mon, even Bush got some folks to fake some evidence...

Oh, I get it, they haven't finished manufacturing it yet. We need to wait till the ink dries on the post-dated data.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

MarilynW's picture

part. You are calling a whole lot of professional people liars, where's your proof?

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To thine own self be true.

detroitmechworks's picture

Everybody else is doing a bang up job of stenography.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Can't believe anybody believes the CIA. I mean, they've always been professional liars, to some extent, but after the yellow cake uranium thing...how much less credible can you get?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Big lies. Horrific consequences for believing false intelligence reports presented as slam dunk realities, anonymous conclusions presented by unaccountable, untouchable CIA analysts.

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Bisbonian's picture

Russiansdidit.jpeg

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Bisbonian's picture

The Podesta emails were "hacked" (leaked) in March of 2016. Trump was still in competition with Carson, Rubio, Cruz, and Kasich at the time, and Bernie still had a shot at being the nominee. Making Hillary look bad to make Trump win the race would have taken an awful lot of prescience, for those pesky Russians.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

MarilynW's picture

"When Special Agent Adrian Hawkins of the Federal Bureau of Investigation called the Democratic National Committee in September 2015 to pass along some troubling news about its computer network, he was transferred, naturally, to the help desk."

Looks like you are debating an article that you haven't read yet.:)

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To thine own self be true.

terriertribe's picture

Simply that the emails were leaked at a time when no one knew with certainty who the nominees would be.

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Now interviewing signature candidates. Apply within.

Pluto's Republic's picture

Some of the papers were leaked then. The rest were on their way to Wikileaks.

After May 2016, the DNC computers were secured.

So all this kabuki to make people think something happened during the election is just your government lying into your face, spittle and all.

Many, many people are well aware of this. They read about it in the non-US newspapers.

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
gulfgal98's picture

I believe that the DNC leaks were not the result of a hack, but the result of insider leaks. Assange has said multiple times that the information that Wikileaks received on the DNC came directly from an insider.

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Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

OLinda's picture

I don't think Assange actually said that about "an insider," did he? It would not be like him to say or even give clues as to his sources.

He did finally volunteer that the Russian govt. was not a source. It became such an issue that he felt he needed to put it to rest so he went against his long held policy on that one. And it was denying a source, not giving a clue to a source. If he starts giving clues to his sources it will chill/kill future leaks to WikiLeaks.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…with that narrative, gulfgal.

I downloaded a few of the DNC documents from Guccifer 2.0s site before Wikileaks began releasing them. He is the romanian hacker, whom I believe finessed the DNC password from Podesta:

https://guccifer2.wordpress.com/2016/06/15/dnc/

I put this bookmark into my c99 folder, where i keep stories I plan to write about. Had NYT/CIA not concocted the wacky business about Putin interfering in the elections, I would not have seen it again.

[EDITED Faulty timeline]

When I first saw the documents, Guccifer 2.0 wrote that he planned to send them to Wikileaks. Who knows if he did. He also said that there were many intruders coming and going and downloading docs at the insecure DNC site.

I did not follow this story. The docs I saw were not interesting to me. I was following a different angle. Looking back, I certainly believe that Assange over the CIA. At the same time, I have no reason to dispute that Russian agents were also feasting on the DNC server, which the CIA asserts. Everybody else in the world was there, according to Guccifer 2.0. Why not Russian government spooks?

It seems unlikely to me that that DNC leaks had an effect on the election outcome, one way or the other. But from my point of view, Hillary had been on a losing streak since before the convention. No yard signs, no bumper stickers, people lying to the pollsters. The analysts I follow signaled on September 23rd that Hillary had lost the election. I mentioned that here a few times. They blame Hillary's loss entirely on the Democratic Party — its policies, platforms, and performance — and the punishment it consistently delivered to the American worker class and their children.

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Bisbonian's picture

I was wrong...it was the DNC emails in 2016.

I should have said there were 17 Republican candidates at the time...and the Russians knew that by leaking the truth about the Hillary campaign, they could make their buddy Trump win the election. Now that's REALLY prescient.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Pluto's Republic's picture

I didn't think of that. I was lost in preposterous world.

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"

You call all that baseless crap proof?

You really think the FBI would have that much trouble contacting Hillary with alarming news?

Assange has stated clearly that the DNC and Podesta documents he published were not from the Russians, not from hacks, but from LEAKS. This was further corroborated by UK Diplomat/Ambassador Craig Murray who said he actually met the leaker and discussed the matter with him. Which is the better source - anonymous sources or the one who goes on the record?

Just what is the importance of blaming Russia? Is it because Hillary can't stand to think she lost in a fair fight? Is it because the MIC wants to go to war with Russia? Is ISIS losing its bogeyman appeal and we need to supplement the bad guy side for some reason?

Hillary came just short of saying she would attack Russian jets in Syria, but her idiotic no-fly zone made it clear that was her intent.

There is dissent in the ranks of security personnel and agencies regarding this finger pointing at Russia. Why isn't the NYT talking about these differences rather than this puffy cotton cloudlike "proof" that has nothing for back up?

I'm really sorry to say this Marilyn, but I think you are being used as a stooge. You are being taken for a wild, surreal ride. I hope the cynicism the rest of America is experiencing arrives at your door soon.

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MarilynW's picture

I provided credible links and names but I doubt that you read the report of the investigation. Anyway there is going to be another investigation of the whole affair. You probably won't believe that either. So be it.

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To thine own self be true.

asterisk's picture

After I checked on the facts I realized that it is probable that Wikileaks got the information from an internal DNC leak, just as people associated with Wikileaks have told us. Russia and a lot of other governments probably did hack the DNC given their pathetic cyber-security, but that does not mean they caused the actual results of our election. Unless the Trump campaign was involved in some way with the foreign hacking that will not give us grounds to overturn the election; and then it would be contentious and depend on the extent of the Trump gang's involvement.

Your are absolutely correct that global warming is a really serious issue and we need to start addressing it a soon as possible. We need to focus our energy of finding ways to deal with environmental problems.

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MarilynW's picture

really worthwhile. Knowing that there are people here who are deeply concerned about climate change is a BIG thing.

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To thine own self be true.

I read the NYT's article and called it "baseless" because there are so few facts and none to support the notion that Russians interfered with our election. There are no names provided to bring proof to the notion.

If, as the MSM seems to be reporting, it is a fact that Russians hacked to influence the election; then why are so many other investigations being launched? They should not need further investigations if they have all the facts.

I'm sorry to say it but what a stupid statement. You sound like the clueless spinster aunt. I can say what I want and be sorry that I'm pegging you as as stupid, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't call you out for being stupid.

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please lighten up on the insults. There was no need for that last paragraph.

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mimi's picture

Where do you live? on Mars? Have you been bombed before? Tortured? Starved?

I am as afraid of environmental destruction as you are, but I do trust in nature's ability to regenerate itself, I don't trust humans to regenerate their broken minds in their own lifetime.

I guess I am not in the best mood this Sunday morning. So, forget about my comment.

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MarilynW's picture

I think that the threat of climate change is greater right now than the threat of a world war.

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To thine own self be true.

mimi's picture

have not the same opinion in the short term.

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So they fall on their own petard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoist_with_his_own_petard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forlorn_hope

In the old days explosive bombs were unreliable.
Army laying siege to fortified city. Lucky souls are sent to place an explosive charge (petard) at base of wall. so as to blow hole in it.

Often the bomb explodes early and the guy who had brought it was blown "high up in the sky".

Delighted towners, seeing it rise abve the ramparts would say-

That *****was "hoist by his own petard."

That is how I heard it.

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bits of Ham

let.

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MarilynW's picture

knowing full well the original quote but thanks for the pedantry.

No one here has provided me with an answer to why they don't believe there was a Russian hack except to say the CIA are liars or that I am a "stooge." Great debating tactics.

There were 5 independent non-government researchers involved in the investigation of the hack who all came to the same conclusion. They are all liars too? And Bill Moyers, no one commented on the fact that he believes there was a Russian hack.

Sorry to interfere in your group think club here. Carry on.

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To thine own self be true.

be more persuasive to you than the previous commenters here have been:

In short, we are told that the CIA claims are based on “inference”: which is to say that the CIA officials are “confident,” based on their psychological profile of President Putin, that the latter would prefer Mr. Trump as President; that since it was the Democrats who experienced leaks – and not the Republicans – it may be inferred that a hostile power was behind the leaks; and since Putin lies at the apex of Russian power, it may “confidently” be inferred that he personally would have authorized and directed such leaks.

Of course, this is not intelligence. This is simply a given conceptual framework (or group think), which may be right or may be wrong, being played out. It is blatantly political – unless sustained by hard intelligence.

His entire essay on the matter is well worth a read.

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native

There is a difference between "up" and "down".

My guess is that you meant to say "fall on his own sword", and will not admit your mistake.

That seems the problem to me, rather than my "pedantry".

But as the fly on the mirror said, "That's just another way of looking at it."

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MarilynW's picture

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To thine own self be true.

thank you.

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lotlizard's picture

the Internet oligarchs' self-appointed "fact checker" nannies, protecting the public against non-establishment-approved narratives, a.k.a. Conspiracy Theories™ Fake News™.

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Deja's picture

Maddening from the side of seeing it, but being unable to get the pod people to see it, though. Guess we just have to write them off as goners, and accept our stronger doses of Big Brother censorship and thought police medicine.

Speaking of BB, a forced Google Android update has added a Google icon to my text suggestions bar, just this morning. Maybe I can tap it and determine whether what I'm typing is fake or real. Thanks Ministry of Truth!

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can barely wait to see the post-fake news flap version of fact-checking. Actually, I can wait. Forever. However, I suspect I won't have that luxury.

As she speaks out against fake news, I get the the sinking feeling that our Hills may run again in 2020. After all, she'll only just barely have turned 73 by election day, 2020 and, given Trump and Sanders, America is apparently into septuagenarians. Presidentially speaking, 70 seems to be the new 50.

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dervish's picture

Trump will win a second term.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

Pluto's Republic's picture

But what if she is running against Pence?

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"

mess up royally. Even if he doesn't, media will say he did. Look what they've been doing since he clinched the Republican nomination. Since he won the electoral vote, it's reached a fever pitch. I expect them to keep this up every day until the next silly season and someone else is sitting in the Oval Office, however many years that takes.

Media has made it abundantly clear that neither Sanders nor Trump was the establishment candidate, the difference being Sanders was not, during the primary, manifestly unworthy to be President. Trump and Hillary, however, do meet that description. For just one thing--as few wish to admit--her husband's policies, which she endorsed over and over, brought economic collapse or near economic collapse to the US and several European nations. And she was going to put him in charge of money matters!

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as a dozen or so established corporate news aggregators. But these long-time and soi-disant arbiters of popular opinion have been losing a lot of credibility lately. They are no longer universally seen to be nearly as "authoritative" as they once were. The decline of msm's reputation has been precipitous, to the extent that social media and internet-based sources of information might very well become equally, if not more influential in the near future. The surprising successes of both Sanders' and Trump's campaigns, in the face of msm's opposition, might be evidence of this, and predictive of US politics to come.

YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, and the like are having a truly revolutionary impact on public discourse -- to the great detriment of centralized, corporate-controlled information brokers.

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native

impact on the zeitgeist. Speaking of loss of credibility, I think government and media combining to discredit and demonize "fake news" on the internet (formerly known as claims, assertions, allegations, rumors, speculation, etc.) may just have an impact on the perception of credibility of non-mainstream sources. (And. many of them ARE off the wall, sloppy at best and off the wall or hateful at worst, etc.)

Forgetting political posters on message boards and other political junkies, ask someone IRL if they know that Assange has had a 100% reliability record. Very likely, the response will be "What's Assange?"

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Lisa Lockwood's picture

wikileaks and assange have both categorically denied that their source was anything other than an insider, someone within the DNC, if you take 'insider' to mean what i think it means.
Unfortunately, the person whom many believe was the actual leaker was murdered and can tell no tales.
Fuckers.

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"When the powerless are shut out of the media, we will make the media irrelevant" ~Anonymous~

edg's picture

"the capability and sufficient motive to A) hack the DNC"

Any 10 year old kid with an Internet connection could have hacked the DNC because their lack of security on their server was outright negligent. Someone was able to login at root level (highest possible) and stay logged in for a year doing whatever they wanted. It's laughable to accuse Russians of some nefarious plot when the DNC itself left the barn door open, the lights on, and a big "Welcome!" sign hanging from the roof.

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announcement that the leaks were from an insider:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4034038/Ex-British-ambassador-Wi...

By Alana Goodman In Washington, Dc For Dailymail.com
PUBLISHED: 14 December 2016 | UPDATED: 14 December 2016

Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan and associate of Julian Assange, told the Dailymail.com he flew to Washington, D.C. for emails...

The leakers' motivation was 'disgust at the corruption of the Clinton Foundation and the 'tilting of the primary election playing field against Bernie Sanders

Murray says: 'The source had legal access to the information. The documents came from inside leaks, not hacks'

'Regardless of whether the Russians hacked into the DNC, the documents Wikileaks published did not come from that,' Murray insists...

A Wikileaks envoy today claims he personally received Clinton campaign emails in Washington D.C. after they were leaked by 'disgusted' whisteblowers - and not hacked by Russia...

'Neither of [the leaks] came from the Russians,' said Murray in an interview with Dailymail.com on Tuesday. 'The source had legal access to the information. The documents came from inside leaks, not hacks.'

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Bisbonian's picture

would be someone inside the DNC, with access to their computer systems. An IT staffer. And someone that picked out mostly evidence of unfair actions toward the Bernie campaign, to be exposed to the public...likely a Bernie supporter. And someone who has been remarkably silent since the release of those emails. But I have no idea who that could be.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Lookout's picture

to solve the case of Seth Rich, murdered DNC staffer. He might be the leaker.
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Man-Shot-Killed-in-Northwest-DC-...

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Bisbonian's picture

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

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by the day, as long as as they continue this wild goose chase. And it's not as if they have all that much credibility left to spare.

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native

Pluto's Republic's picture

The man behaved and looked like a very tall turd behind the podium.

I had never seen him like that before. I liked him better than anyone here, I believe. And in one day, that changed forever.

The President insists on calling it a "hack" while trying to assure Americans that the voting system was not hacked. (It wasn't.) He is speaking only of the leaked emails of the DNC and John Podesta. Guccifer II obtained the official passwords through social engineering and used those passwords just like everyone else who worked on the campaign. There's no hacking trail of Russian code.

"The hack," he calls it. The man is a fool. The President even told the press he would release no proof of the hack because he didn't want the Russians to see how the CIA had cracked their "hack." He chided the Press for not taking the word of the true patriots in America, the CIA.

I remember in June when an obscure Romanian hacker calling himself Guccifer II announced he had hacked the DNC servers and had been sitting on those servers for more than a year. He released a few of the DNC documents that day. He was planning to send the rest to Wikileaks, once he made contact with them.

WRITTEN BY GUCCIFER2
JUNE 15, 2016

GUCCIFER 2.0 DNC’S SERVERS HACKED BY A LONE HACKER

Worldwide known cyber security company CrowdStrike announced that the Democratic National Committee (DNC) servers had been hacked by “sophisticated” hacker groups.

I’m very pleased the company appreciated my skills so highly))) But in fact, it was easy, very easy.

Guccifer may have been the first one who penetrated Hillary Clinton’s and other Democrats’ mail servers. But he certainly wasn’t the last. No wonder any other hacker could easily get access to the DNC’s servers.

Shame on CrowdStrike: Do you think I’ve been in the DNC’s networks for almost a year and saved only 2 documents? Do you really believe it?

Here are just a few docs from many thousands I extracted when hacking into DNC’s network.

Where was President Hack then?

I remember when Obama referred to Ed Snowden as a hacker. He still does.

This is not about warmongers.

This is about the American people being completely manipulated and misinformed, once more, about realities that recently occurred. Anyone who bothers to scratch 'n sniff the Internet can find the truth and the timeline.

I've never seen all the way to the bottom of the abyss before. At least I hope this is the bottom.

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"

...and given your account, I'm glad I didn't waste my time.

The warmongers are the ones who manipulate and misinform the American public through their influence over the MSM.

This could all end up going very badly, but I've got to hang on to the hope that maybe the Voices for Peace in American can recognize what's happening early and start providing significant push-back before it's too late.

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James Kroeger

Pluto's Republic's picture

The entire conspiracy is preposterous from every angle.

It's just as well you didn't see the "final" press conference. I could have done without. I think you're right to be hopeful. There are a number of academic papers that discuss what life is like inside a dying Empire. Naturally, Empire is weakened and impoverished at the center to pay for the constant wars of Empire aggression. The debts incurred are placed on the next unborn generation. The common areas are blighted and state services withdrawn. The roads and infrastructures fall into decay. The people are stressed and suffer. Many withdraw into the countryside. Information is gossip-based and paranoid. There is ever-present insecurity and fear.

If an empire winds down quickly, however, it can be rejuvenating and freeing. Society can become entertaining and happier. The people don't want war, they are manipulated by fear. No nation aspires to attack and conquer the US and no nation has the structural means to do so. It's militarily impossible to invade the US. It is geographically isolated by vast oceans that must be crossed, and its area is much too large and lacking modern infrastructure. It would be pointless. The very idea of vulnerability is a monumental American delusion that springs from the un-redressed American genocide — the largest by far in human history — that was used to seize the land and resources. The inbred fear in America that someone might do to them what they did to the native cultures that evolved here, is the expression of that delusion. Out of that, Americans are punishing themselves in every terrible way that a society can. The last election that forced a choice between the nation's two most loathed elite candidates was the latest self-harm.

One can readily see that the Russian kabuki of the Neocon-operated Democrats, is simply a vindictive pile of sabotage meant to harm the next administration. And to punish you, of course, because they lost.

Americans are a haunted people but I think they've caught on that they cannot win a war, and every time they try, it harms them severely.

I believe they are even catching on that every time they vote, the country becomes nastier and more soulless.

It seems to me that awareness has increased tremendously. It's a much large presence now. When it finds its center, the US will regain its moral compass and its vision. It will stop the self-harm.

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IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"

One can readily see that the Russian kabuki of the Neocon-operated Democrats, is simply a vindictive pile of sabotage meant to harm the next administration. And to punish you, of course, because they lost.

I believe they are even catching on that every time they vote, the country becomes nastier and more soulless.

I'm not sure how long the U.S. is for this road, but it can't be much further.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

you find you can always go lower. We, in no way, have hit bottom as a country, but we're giving it the old college try to damn well find it.

I'm disgusted with what is supposed to be the American government. This is truly the face of oligarchy.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Whenever you think things can't possibly get worse, you're not surprised to find you were wrong.

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Please help support caucus99percent!

Raggedy Ann's picture

Scratch one-s head

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

riverlover's picture

(near-death experience) where I proved to be stronger-willed, as it were. Now I can find the silver lining in most things. So I reclassified myself as an optimist. Now I just describe myself as a cynical realist. But pessimism looms.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

PriceRip's picture

          There is a depth from which it is not possible for a submarine¹ to rise.




¹ Given sufficient structural strength so that the submarine does not implode. Barring that, the analogy may still be good.

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CB's picture

We've now gone down to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. The deepest point on earth. This stuff is fascinating.
http://www.deepseachallenge.com/the-sub/

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PriceRip's picture

Drinks Blow Ballast, Ha !, not on my watch ! Drinks

          Pearl divers use this same (cheating) trick.

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and even when I saw him selling us out, I did not understand the extent of his corruption.
I thought he was making it up as he went. Doing some kind of "best he could", while he screwed us.

He almost got away with it, but the Podesta emails put him in Citigroup's pocket as early as 2003.
Froman was the link between Citi and Obama. Froman delivered Citi cabinet picks to Podesta October 2008.

Mr. Obama knows he's been busted. And She is to blame!

lol * lol * lol
lol * lol
lol

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detroitmechworks's picture

Because, funny story, Hackers like finding out secrets.

They aren't all evil anarchists plotting the downfall of civilization.

Often they're smart people with a desire to test the bounds of what they can do.

What, after all, are the warmongers screaming about? They're screaming about the release of information, and demanding the right to control information.

Short Version: Politicians demand the right to lie without consequences.

It's a wonderful world-turned-upside-down take on the old authoritarian saw of "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of," while demanding the power to spy upon us. Shoe don't feel so good on the other foot, does it oh lords of the world?

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.


They're screaming about the release of information, and demanding the right to control information.

They really don't have a leg to stand on, were they ever to face real scrutiny. But they've found a way to point their fingers at an 'enemy' who can't respond without having its answer run through the warmongers' filter.

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James Kroeger

is a private, privileged form of communication -- evidently confusing it with its namesake and predecessor, the personal letter. Big mistake. There is nothing private about anything that's on the internet. Its essential nature being that of a social grapevine.

It takes many years for a new technology to mature, and be commonly understood and utilized. For example, automobiles were referred to, and looked very much like horseless carriages, for decades after the technology was introduced. Classic Marshall McLuhan of course, as relevant as ever.

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native

PriceRip's picture

          "hacker" became a universal pejorative only after we (as in: The older crowd that was here in the beginning.) got overrun by the clueless newbes.

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video Jimmy Dore put up today. We at least have a name of someone who claims to have given Wiki the emails. Whether true or not, this is far more than the CIA/FBI/obama has given us...

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As Julian Assange has made crystal clear, the leaks did not come from the Russians. As I have explained countless times, they are not hacks, they are insider leaks – there is a major difference between the two. And it should be said again and again, that if Hillary Clinton had not connived with the DNC to fix the primary schedule to disadvantage Bernie, if she had not received advance notice of live debate questions to use against Bernie, if she had not accepted massive donations to the Clinton foundation and family members in return for foreign policy influence, if she had not failed to distance herself from some very weird and troubling people, then none of this would have happened.

The continued ability of the mainstream media to claim the leaks lost Clinton the election because of “Russia”, while still never acknowledging the truths the leaks reveal, is Kafkaesque.

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So as LaFeminista noted in a very pointed comment. Our democracy is as fragile as a butterfly. A nation of over 300,000,000 is so weak, down trodden, and ignorant that a few Russian hackers can change the results of an entire presidential election? You know, the nation helped dfeat the Nazis and Imperial Japan, sent people to the moon, and invented the Reuben sandwich are so pathetic as to let a few hackers tell us how to vote??

And they did this how? No evidence of changing votes. No evidence inserting malware on voting machines. No evidence of changing voter registration data bases. No evidence of switching party affiliation in NYC during the primaries. No, these Russian hackers assuming it was them, posted emails which were unaltered and true. That Hillary was undone by the truthful emails. We are essentially saying that Hillary's corruption was acceptable and the greater and worse crime was its exposure.

And during the primaries, one of the big hits on Bernie was that he could not win the general election because he wasn't vetted like Clinton. That Clinton was immune as everything bad about her was already known, and it was all damn lies to begin with. That the powerful invincible republican smear machine would chew up Bernie and spit him out. But not Clinton.

The republican smear machine in fact did not undo Clinton. Like a character out of Sophocles and Shakespeare, her hubris, arrogance and corruption undid her.

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detroitmechworks's picture

And took responsibility for it.

I envision how Hillary would have responded in that place...

Probably by attacking the messenger for reporting the fact that the corpse had been looted.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

that this is what the supporters of Hillary Clinton and Russian hack threat are saying:

Hillary's corruption was acceptable and the greater and worse crime was its exposure.

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asterisk's picture

I have not read the emails. Are they now saying the stuff in the emails was so terrible that anyone who read them would not have voted for Her?

I doubt the hacking by itself would lead to war, but there was other BS before the fictitious WMDs led to the invasion of Iraq. The level of tolerance this country has been developing for brutality is worries me.

Over at TOP they are having a huge snit over this diary. When I rec'd it someone said to hurry up and HR it because there was another "bad" rec.
I will have to go back over there and see if I am in trouble. I always backed out of the pie fights so I do not know how this works. I just quit logging in there several years ago because people I liked were quitting or being banned for behavior popular kids got away with.

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Yeah, it's a really crazy place over there.

Thought I try an antiwar diary just to see how many lovers of peace remain over there. It's not encouraging.

Did you notice that I never mentioned Hillary's name, even though she was one of the principle warmongers I was thinking of when I wrote it?

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James Kroeger

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dervish's picture

A nation that touts "regime change" as an instrument of its foreign policy shouldn't be surprised if the tables are turned.

The above is actually not true though, no foreign power, the Russians or anyone else "hacked" the election. No voting machines were accessed nor any votes flipped (by Russians). What they did, at most, was draw attention to factual information about Clinton. Revealing facts about someone is hardly election fraud, much less a coup.

The idea that the Dems are promoting is that these revealed facts were so devastating, that people couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton. That sounds like persuasion to me, not hacking.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

snoopydawg's picture

He wrote a diary on DK about Russia/Putin attacking our democracy even though he admitted that The emails wer leaked from someone inside Hillary's campaign
Then after that he continued with the wording of Russia and Putin HACKING and then leaking the emails.
As many have stated, there's no proof that the voting machines were tampered with, just that someone released the Podesta emails.
Moyers has been a voice of reason for as long as I have followed him and to see him write this POS is very disturbing.
No one has ever talked about what those emails revealed about how Hillary and the DNC TAMPERED WITH THE PRIMARY
they keep deflecting the release of them on to Russia.
Good lord Bill what happened to you and Michael?

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There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?

when I could no longer trust him.
And Michael Moore is campaigning to get the electors to switch their votes to Hillary.
How damn sad and depressing this is.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

asterisk's picture

This also could be taken as something like a sit-in without the immanent prospect of arrest.

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Lily O Lady's picture

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"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

TheOtherMaven's picture

and there is a long list of people now with varying degrees of brain rot as a result.

It is as yet unknown whether the damage is reversible (once the Trumposaurus has gone away again) or permanent.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

I just might cry.

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-putin-white-house/#

Edit. Warning: If you have any respect for Moyers, prepare to be sickened.

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CB's picture

Has he gone senile? He is suffering from dementia? (He is now over 90.)
Maybe the "deep state" got even by giving him mind altering drugs for exposing them back in 2014?
Here's what he wrote in Anatomy of the Deep State

February 21, 2014
There is the visible government situated around the Mall in Washington, and then there is another, more shadowy, more indefinable government that is not explained in Civics 101 or observable to tourists at the White House or the Capitol. The former is traditional Washington partisan politics: the tip of the iceberg that a public watching C-SPAN sees daily and which is theoretically controllable via elections. The subsurface part of the iceberg I shall call the Deep State, which operates according to its own compass heading regardless of who is formally in power. [1]
...
[1] The term “Deep State” was coined in Turkey and is said to be a system composed of high-level elements within the intelligence services, military, security, judiciary and organized crime. In British author John le Carré’s latest novel, A Delicate Truth, a character describes the Deep State as “… the ever-expanding circle of non-governmental insiders from banking, industry and commerce who were cleared for highly classified information denied to large swathes of Whitehall and Westminster.” I use the term to mean a hybrid association of elements of government and parts of top-level finance and industry that is effectively able to govern the United States without reference to the consent of the governed as expressed through the formal political process.

After listing all the very valid reasons why Hillary and the DNC lost the election in his latest screed, he sticks this shiite in:
Trumped by Putin

There are lots of reasons why Hillary Clinton lost and Donald Trump won, but the hacking of our election by Russia's Vladimir Putin is the most frightening.
...
What happens now? How do we confront this crisis of a president-elect who may owe his victory partly to the stealth of his Russian doppelganger? How do we get to the bottom of this before it is too late and a very unstable, egomaniacal and vindictive Donald Trump is handed control of the CIA, the NSA, the FBI, the US Army and Navy and Air Force, the Departments of State and Homeland Security, the IRS and every regulatory agency of the US government? Who from within will challenge him then?

He is now negating everything he stood for just a few years ago. His head is definitely fucked.

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detroitmechworks's picture

Are under ENORMOUS pressure to conform to the narrative.

Moyers seems to be no longer willing to try to swim up a waterfall.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

CB's picture

Moyers is going to stink for a long time to come.

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It's pathetic and so transparent. Obama is a corporatist shill. No other way of looking at this.

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho

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