Tuesday Night Rumble: Bernin' Bernie Sanders vs Toronto Ted Cruz

2017 is turning out to be be continuing on the path set by 2016 by becoming wierderer and wierderer. Imagine if you will, the Clinton News Network broadcasting a full, unedited political debate in an really non-partisan way (really! I mean it). The format was straightforward. The speakers were self-controlled, by and large sticking to the questions proffered by the audience. The audience questioners presented represented a fair balance of differing opinions.. And most incredible of all, the moderators were reasonable and unbiased. All this from a network notorious for Fake News and which both ignored Bernie during the primary and maligned Cruz as well.

For those who may have missed this: full debate is here. Excellent sound and video quality. A concurrent straw poll was conducted by the rebroadcaster, not CNN, with amazing results. No spoiler here. You'll have to watch this debate to get the results of over 40,000 online voters.

Unsurprisingly, each debater played to his ideological/programmatic strengths and criticized the opponent's weaknesses. However, unlike Hillary's debates, no talking over occurred. Debaters kept to their time allotted and, most important of all, despited their substantial disagreements, were quite civil and polite to each other. This greatly enhanced the substantive qualities developed.

Now, as should be obvious, a 1 hour 40 minute debate can only scratch the surface of an enormously complex issue such as healthcare. Other important issues directly impinge upon the health care debate. To a limited extent such digressions were permitted--but kept well-in-check by the moderators. Issues peripherally, but importantly mentioned, were obscene salaries to CEOs of Insurance and Big Pharma companies, wealth inequality of our society, and tax policy.

Major issues, not unexpectedly included:

1. Single payer--which was primarily discussed as expanding Medicaid, not as expanding Medicare (one point off for Bernie for not pushing that issue).

2. The very real flaws of Obamacare (which apparently 1/3rd of the population doesn't know that the ACA is Obamacare!) Bernie did not criticize the failings, very real ones of the ACA, with the degree of ardor to which he should have attacked those flaws, probably in deference to the departing President (TDHG = Thank dog he's gone).

3. Bernie did defend positive benefits of the ACA, which all should know as no lifetime limitations on coverage, no exclusion of pre-existing illnesses, and prohibition of cancellation for new, serious health problems.

4. Surprising, and indeed hopeful unanimity between Cruz and Sanders was displayed on the issue of importation of drugs from Canada. This is only a start and could be expanded to other countries which subject their drugs to rigorous testing and provided those drugs to their populations with evidence of safety. There was a hint from Cruz that in fact he might go along with such an expanded plan.

5. Cruz also proposed a program that would mandate a streamlined approval process by the FDA to approve drugs already in use in certain countries (e.g., EU, UK, Canada, etc.)

6. On the negative side, Cruz continually conflates the idea of affordability of healthcare to access TO healthcare (1 point off for Cruz).

7. Although Cruz talked about interstate competition between insurance companies, he brushed off the the concept of single payer.

8. Cruz out-of-hand criticized government interference in the health marketplace as "bad" (another point off for Cruz who does not acknowledge the horrendous interference by alleged insurers who allegedly provide health insurance to their clients).

9. Correctly, Cruz pointed out the enormous amount of governmental regulations which do not obtain a positive outcome: 7000 pages of regulations which still result in a horrible system. Bernie did not argue with that but kept silent.

10. No definitive outline of a plan was presented by Cruz other than retention of: no exclusion of pre-existent conditions (but he did not rule out cancellations for newly acquired diseases); no discrimination between gender for premiums.

11. Things allowed to go by the wayside, as pointed out by Bernie included coverage of people under age 26 by their parents' policies.

12. Cruz waffled on governmental ability to negotiate prices with Big Pharma (another point off for Cruz). Of course, Bernie was all-in for that one.

In the computer industry, programs that do not actually exist are called "vaporware". In Trumptopia, the health plan certainly fits in that category.

Ted Cruz talks a good game--but he doesn't make the rules. There is no "ready-for-prime-time" healthcare program. My dog, haven't the Republican geniuses had enough time to prepare their own plan 6 years into the ACA?

On the other hand, Trump is planning a truly harmful intervention, if the article cited is to believed.

In sum, the debate highlighted main differences between Sanders and Republicans. In fact many DINOs still are not aboard the single-payer train. Valid information on both sides of the debate were presented; it was not all smoke and mirrors.

A more forceful, non-apologetic showing must be made on behalf of single payer advocates before it can successfully impact the majority of Americans. Until an overwhelming majority of citizens loudly demand it, no health care changes (at least positive ones) will be presented by our bought-and-paid-for Congress.

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joe shikspack's picture

i haven't had time to watch it yet, but hope to this weekend. or maybe if i get a snow day tomorrow...

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Pricknick's picture

Bernie as a role figure anymore. Maybe I'm too old.
His ideas are new to many, yet they have around for a long time. Could be he's just a spark?
We need a controlled explosion to follow.
Cruz is a megalomaniac. Besting him is an easy journey.

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Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.

@Pricknick
Political courage is inspiring, but if there is no movement, then the news feeds quickly displace it with the latest tweet of a self-delusional, narcisist, or the latest sensational, viral video. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy by design. Movements on the left are given no air.

It is time to make demands too.

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Fighting for democratic principles,... well, since forever

Alligator Ed's picture

@Pricknick needs one. The message is not getting across. Politicians are excellent at smoke and mirrors. They are succeeding in obfuscating the essentials of the healthcare dilemma, which although complex, simply boils down to "WHO PAYS?"

This falderal about giving patients choice through insurance company competition will not withstand the profit-maximizing "fiduciary" rule. Fiduciary not to you and me but to owners and officers of these scams known as "Insurance Companies". Without Federal regulations banning practices such as pre-existing conditions, etc. those practices will again rise from the ashes, competition or not. Profit über alles.

One topic I have not read about in this messy debate is having tiers of coverage within a Medicare for all system. Such as, should there be extra co-pay for dental care?

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Cassiodorus's picture

@Alligator Ed http://www.flowersforsenate.org/

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"there's something so especially sadistic about waving the flag of a country that you're actively destroying" -- Aaron Mate

Wink's picture

@Pricknick Dem publicly professed Bernie's views maybe it could be said that Bernie's ideas are old. That there isn't... Besides, his "old" ideas still ring true.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

I actually know a millenial losing healthcare that goes away at age 26: Infuriating and cruel.

They shifted the curve of cruelty to another population that cannot afford it either. Believe it or not, if no stand is marked somewhere, then there is no valid and good reason for laws or civilation other than to serve the corporate body. Just what reason is there for so many to believe that the oligarchy deserves champagne and caviar, while a single-parent must stare down an empty plate at dinner and consider the financial impacts of other hardships, like an illness, loss, or a family crissis. Is human life so insignificant? Is that the new normal?

Most awfully, if corporations pay less tax then you, then why is the "givernment" working for them, when you are the paying their share of the taxes along with your own? They might as well outsource the IRS too. Either we are Socialists, or not. Austerity for all, but tax cuts for the oligarchy and the multi-nationals? Are you Fing kidding me?

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Fighting for democratic principles,... well, since forever

@fight2bfree
cut out the middle-man and give your wages directly to the multinationals and the oligarchy.

If it doesn't make a person sick, then it is just a matter of time.

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Fighting for democratic principles,... well, since forever

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Sounds like the 'debate' is still confined to finding some way to make a for-profit healthcare system work.

And so they'll go round and round about all the different unsolvable problems caused by a for-profit healthcare system, without ever acknowledging that the only way to not have those problems is to not have a for-profit healthcare system in the first place.

Been watching this same stupid dance for thirty years now. Same stupid questions. Same stupid answers.

So bored with it.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Alligator Ed's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger but there really is no sane alternative to single payer. But I would be the last to call congress critters sane.

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PriceRip's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger
          I was thinking this sort of stupidity has been extant for more than thirty years.

          As long as the discussion is about how to configure a For Profit Healthcare System there is nothing of real value being considered. As long as Healthcare is privatized the most vulnerable of our society are at risk.

          But hey! I've got mine now so why should I care, right?

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NorthOfU's picture

Shok
Journalist Andrew Cohen:
Yet here she is, as enduring and empty as a tin can in a landfill. Her name – believe it or not – is in the chatter coming out of the Prime Minister’s Office and the State Department.
In Canada, Palin would have to learn to speak one of our official languages. ROFL
http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/cohen-sarah-palin-could-brin...

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Alligator Ed's picture

But I agree with it. From the venerated (recently used to be degenerated) Huff Post

GOP HEROES GEAR UP TO LIBERATE AMERICANS FROM HEALTH INSURANCE - Jeffrey Young: “President Donald Trump and the Republicans who control Congress have a major problem to solve: The uninsured rate has never been lower…. Trump and congressional GOP stalwarts like House Speaker Paul Ryan (Wis.) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.) are hard at work devising a solution to the Affordable Care Act’s depressive effect on the uninsured rate. They also possibly will replace the law with a new health care reform plan that would ensure the United States once again stands as a bastion of individual liberty from having your medical bills covered.”

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boriscleto's picture

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

has three sides...Pre-ACA (100% market rationing with hyper inflation), ACA and Medicare for all. There should never have been ACA and now we are paying dearly for its existence. This was one of many reasons why I was so pissed at Obama. Now for those of us that want universal coverage, we have to fight Republicans and Democrats.

We all knew ACA would fail. There is no room for insurance company bloat in healthcare and now that cancer continues to spread.

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@Blueslide Matt Taibbi at Rolling Stone, that was a big part of his point on bashing ACA, besides the for profit motive that he pointed out so well would indeed blow itself up. His opinion on that was it could very well sour any discussion of single payer for decades when people finally got a good look at just what it is, nothing more than subsidizing the profit margin of "private" enterprise while driving up US debt. That was my first real look at Obama's sell out, before then I was all good with it and argued fiercely for it. Once that cat was out of the bag with Obama I started really realizing just what Democrats really stand for and it's been all downhill since!

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

orlbucfan's picture

Farts have supported for decades? I'm 64 and the Bernster is 75. You guys need to get on the stick here. You don't have the time luxury anymore. Rec'd!!

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

Alligator Ed's picture

@lizzyh7 @orlbucfan Age makes no difference. As the now senile Nancy Pelosi is in her mid-seventies and Shillary is 69 and holding (and believe me, she is holding on tightly) are Conservdems, DINOs or whatever (but NOT progressive), we do have a younger generation coming up with the likes of sell-out Cory Booker and HRC junior Gillibrand. But we also have Tulsi and Nina, Tim Canova, etc. But expect them to get completely fucked over by the establishment as they have so eminently did to Bernie.

Of course none of the former cash suckers will even mention single-payer. If we're lucky and they have had too much to drink they might even mention public option. Maybe. Don't hold your breath.

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@Alligator Ed

Well, since it's being rigged so that votes can't count, period, even by accident, voting seems somewhat moot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN-cYCjAAXI

Bipartisan Destruction of Election System Continues; Now Removing Public Financing
Sane Progressive

Published on 8 Feb 2017

Sources and Links Below: (This is repost of last nights FB LIVE)
If voting worked....they'd make it illegal. From the Unconstitutional declaration of Election Systems as Critical Infrastructure to the latest act of undermining public financing to Presidential elections, the corporate state is working to ensure there NEVER is any real choice.

Personally, I rather suspect that they just don't want to bother continue wasting public money (which they could use themselves) or have any public input on predetermined (privately owned) (s)elections or have to make up itty-bitty vote numbers for any non-corporate parties running... but you can't ever again see any top-secret voting information in or from any voting place or anywhere else to prove that any cheating occurred without hacking Homeland (In)Security. And with everything corrupt, where would you take any proof anyway?

This was another invalid election following an invalid Dem Primary, and it was all left to stand as 'a done deal to be fixed next time', same as always, at least one too many times.

So an invalid government is making absolutely certain that electoral change is impossible.

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.

Regarding the format, overall tone, and ability to dig a bit more deeply (aka issue-oriented content). I think the reason Bernie stuck to the ACA is it seemed the primary intent of the debate, to discuss the current policy and the real impact repeal will have (good or bad).

I would agree that Cruz was civil, although he in my view simply fell back on debunked talking points, in addition to 'congratulating' a person on her illness a couple times.

Ted liked to conflate the term 'socialized medicine' as any sort of 'government' involvement in the health care industry, vs. single payer which primarily focuses on the 'insurance' side and the bartering with industry pricing side. He seemed to acknowledge the issues with drug pricing, but then lamented the idea of 'cost controls'. Well Ted, they're only "cost controls" if there isn't enough competition for an open-bid process to work.

People seem to ignore the fact that premiums were rising out of control at the same time wages have been stagnating. Of course I do not believe the ACA went near far enough, but I also do not believe it has anything to do with current problems in the health insurance industry.

As for ACA's implementation, more people signed up than they originally anticipated, but it was also some of the more sick/needy people who signed up, and not enough young/healthy people. This triggered a 'death spiral' for many plans and sunk many of the co-ops (in addition to risk payments being withheld). Insurance companies also underpriced insurance initially to get people to sign up. These cost spikes were all anticipated, although they were made much worse by the ratio of sick/needy to healthy signups.

Ted was also dishonest in saying medicaid people had worse health outcomes. This is common sense when one realizes that the sickest/neediest people are often on medicaid, nothing to do with their service quality.

Portability and detaching insurance from companies is a great idea personally, but as I am guessing most people here acknowledge, single-payer is the only realistic way forward. Ted's interstate competition is a race to the bottom, and 'high risk pools' simply do not work either.

I wish education had come up more since they discussed the 'waiting lists'. Access to cheap/tuition-free education should help considerably. Cuba exports doctors because people are not priced out of getting the needed education.

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Alligator Ed's picture

@pyradius of health care. Your point is well taken:

Ted was also dishonest in saying medicaid people had worse health outcomes.

The point of my essay was only to summarize the debate, not to judge on a point by point basis. That has been done and will again be done on this website. Single-payer is necessary but not sufficient to fix our broken healthcare system. Education and attitudinal adjustment are some of the other necessities to get this healthcare train wreck back on track.

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@pyradius

Wasn't Ted Cruz born in Canada, benefiting from far more cost-effective system covering everyone? Guess universal Medicare can't fix everything...

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Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.

A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.