Thursday Open Thread 6-7-2018


Good Morning - I plan on continuing to write on Chinese culture for a few threads. The culture has lasted for several thousand years and has been extensively documented by its citizens. Looking back can teach us, life can be rich and complex without modern conveniences. We just need to have the knowledge of the methods and tools to live a different life style. Suspending judgement on if China is/was a better society than Western provides multiple case studies on development of human civilizations, agriculture and politics.

A modern animation of Along the River During the Qingming Festival painting from the Song Dynasty originally created by Zhang Zeduan (1085-1145 AD) shows a rich urban culture based on trade and small businesses. Multiple versions have been painted in the following centuries showing everyday people and activities,
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxff-4GktOI]

Christianity has spent a longer period of time in China than I realized. It has also been kicked out several times.

Historical Legacy of Jesuits in China - Linked to a PDF

The attempt by members of the Society of Jesus to convert Chinese to Christianity from the late-16thto early-18th centuries was part of the Catholic Reformation’s missionary expansion a round the world.

Christians perhaps as early as the 4 th century AD. Then, in 635 Alopen, leader of the Church of the East (the Syro-Oriental Church, also known incorrectly as Nestorianism), arrived in China from the West. Within a few years Alopen had written the first Christian book in Chinese, Xuting mishi suojing, which stressed the universality of Christianity.

Christianity briefly re-entered China during the Yüan (Mongol) Dynasty (1271-1368), in a Franciscan mission authorized by the Pope, the time of the first Archbishop of Peking, John of Monte Corvino.

The main Jesuit presence began with the Portuguese settlement of Macao in 1579 and ended with the faltering of the mission in the 1720s due to a combination of pressures from Rome and Peking.

8th century began......The controversy started when Mendicant missionaries (Franciscan and Dominican) objected to certain rituals in China, particularly how Jesuit missionaries seemingly participated in Chinese Confucian ceremonies and Chinese converts continued to worship at ancestral altars. .....Mendicant friars, arriving in China from Mexico, and especially the Philippines, were not inclined to make any concessions to local culture. Disputes between French and Portuguese Jesuits back in Europe was another important part of the Controversy.

The challenges the Jesuits faced from their own Church in the early 18th century were now joined by domestic crisis, as the new emperor Yongzheng decided in 1724 that the best solution to the squabbles among Christian missionaries was to expel them all, excepting those in service to the court.

The methods of the Jesuits remained dubious until Pope Pius XII reversed the Church’s stance with a statement in 1939 that Chinese customs were not superstitious but an honorable way to respect one’s relatives, and permitted to Chinese Christians.

Catholicism and the teachings of Confucius.

In 1582, a Jesuit named Ricci landed in Macau. He and his fellow Jesuits highly appreciated the philosophy and the culture of the Ming people and they studied the teachings of Confucianism and Daoism deeply.

By 1615, there were 10,000 converts. Some Jesuits were welcomed as court officials after 1601.

The value of Confucius to the Catholics

Matteo Ricci pioneered this approach in his True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven, first published in 1603. In this work, Ricci quoted the Confucian Classics to argue that a true Confucian ought to be a Catholic. He did so by focusing on morality and playing down the more supernatural aspects of Catholicism. Thus, while Ricci sought to prove from reason that God and an eternal soul existed, he scarcely mentioned the doctrine of the Trinity, the Crucifixion and Resurrection, or the nature and importance of the sacraments. This was because The True Meaning was intended as an introductory text only.12 Ricci wanted to show that the foundations of Catholicism accorded with human reason and Confucian ethics before discussing those supernatural elements of the faith based on Christian revelation that would have been more difficult for Confucian scholars to accept.13 This book was widely read, though most Confucian scholars criticized its arguments and rejected Catholicism out of hand.

History of Christianity in China.

When the Papal bull reached the emperor, Kangxi (who sided with the Jesuits on the issue) in 1715, it spelled disaster. Not accustomed to taking orders, Kangxi was infuriated. The goodwill built up by the Jesuits for more than one hundred years was replaced by vexation. Kangxi contemplated banning Christianity within China. His successor, Yongzheng, finally put it into law, issuing an edict of expulsion and confiscation in 1724.
.....
As the nineteenth century dawned, protestant missionaries arrived in China for the first time. Despite its unpromising beginning, their missionary effort would shake the whole country with a number of prominent individual Christians. The first one is a Protestant convert Hong Xiuquan, who started the Taiping Rebellion from 1850 to 1864 that nearly toppled the Qing government.
.....
Another individual is an English Protestant missionary, Hudson Taylor, who revolutionized Christian missions in China. As noted above, previous Christian missionaries sought to work among the ruling literal class. But Taylor had an audacious idea. He founded the China Inland Mission (CIM) with the aim to take the Gospel into the hearts of Mainland China. It was the first massive grassroots missionary effort ever taken place of this type in China. Taylor decided that CIM would be interdenominational and accepted single women as missionaries. It turned out to be a huge success. By 1895, there were 641 missionaries in every Chinese province except Tibet, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang.
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As Chinese society struggled in turmoil at the turn of the twentieth century, Sun Yat-sen, an overseas Chinese Christian, rose to lead a revolution that gave birth to the Republic of China. The once unthinkable — that a Chinese leader would be a Christian — became a reality. Moreover, China’s next leader, Chiang Kai-shek, turned to Christianity in order to marry the future Madame Chiang Kai-shek (whose father was a Methodist) and Chiang was publicly baptized in 1930.? Despite facing a deadly blow during the anti-foreign outbreak of the Boxer Rebellion in 1900s, Christianity’s presence in China is irreversible as its monarch rule came to an end.
......
The expulsion of foreign missionaries after 1949 opened a new chapter of Christianity in China as the Chinese government tried to gain full control of all religions. Over a thousand years since the Nestorian monks’ arrival in Xi’an, and against a culture (namely, Confucianism) that has no place for God, Christianity was playing critical roles in education, medicine, science and society. In 1949, Chinese Christians numbered approximately three million Catholics and around 800,000 Protestants. Today, China’s Christian population has grown to over one hundred million, combined, according to various unofficial estimates

The legacy of James Legge.

Legge was a representative of the second generation of missionaries to the Chinese, Robert Morrison having arrived thirty-two years earlier and William Milne twenty-six years earlier.
....
Following the First Opium War (1839-42), treaty conditions eased these restrictions and made the role of professional missionaries simultaneously possible and problematic. Precisely because missionaries were regularly perceived by Chinese officials as part of the militarily imposed vanguard of Western intrusions, an uneasy tension continued to govern the relationships between foreign missionaries and the Chinese bureaucracy representing the Manchurian imperial authority. Especially after further concessions were granted in treaties following the Second Opium War (1856-1860), cross-cultural contacts made by resident missionaries, whether Catholic or Protestant, were often susceptible to xenophobic reactions. Any aggressive missionary methods produced heated responses from the already threatened Confucian/Ruist civil officials. Some officials indirectly or overtly supported riotous mob action intent on destroying the missionaries, their newly formed and minuscule Chinese Christian communities, and their attached institutions.(4)
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During these years he returned three times to England and Scotland for furloughs (1846-48, 1857-58, and 1867-70) and once to Japan (1865), most often because of sickness or fatigue.
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Ultimately it was the Chinese Classics that earned Legge international acclaim and later justified the creation of a professorship for him in Oxford. He taught there in association with F. Max MUller at Corpus Christi College from 1876 until his death in 1897,
....
Believing in his later publications (beginning in the 1870s) that the Ruist traditions were not inherently antagonistic to Christianity (as were Buddhism and Daoism, in his understanding of them), Legge later promoted through his missionary scholarship an accommodating attitude toward Ruist classical traditions.

Discussion on Confusionism and changing the terminology to Ruism. The constant changing of terminology and spelling creates significant confusion in reading documents from varies publication dates.

Yes, “Confucianism” is a Western coinage, but you have to be careful about that criterion, because if you decide that it’s enough to disqualify a term, then you also have to eliminate “philosophy,” “religion,” “ethics,” and any number of words that philosophers use every day. I’m not being facetious, because if you were to travel back in time and ask Confucius whether he thought his teachings constituted a philosophy or a religion (after explaining those concepts), I think his answer would be “neither.” (Of all the English words I can think of, “tradition” probably fits best. ????.)

My biggest concern with “Confucianism” is one that I’m sure you share: it’s not just a Western coinage, but a Western coinage with a distinct discursive purpose. It was a Jesuit invention designed to convince a skeptical European Christian readership that Chinese sources contained teachings comparable to those of the New Testament. And THAT is a serious falsification, even if a well-intended one.

Bill Haines says:
May 10, 2016 at 6:29 pm

I’ve been wondering about the relation between e.g. Confucius’ “????” and the claim that “the central commitment of Ruism is ‘sheng sheng’ (??, birth birth), which means continuous creativity.”
Reply

Bin Song says:
May 10, 2016 at 9:30 pm

Continuous creativity is an organic type of creativity, maintaining a subtle balance between inheritance of the old and breaking-through of the novelty. In this regard, the humble word, ????, said by Confucius is a perfect example of how ‘continuous creativity’ was conceived and executed in his case. Actually, Confucius ? a lot. He inherits a rich legacy of Zhou rituals, modifies it according to its practicability in his time, and most importantly, grounds it upon his moral philosophy centering upon the concept of ‘humaneness’ (?). If this is not creativity, I don’t know who is the decisive founder of the Ruist tradition.

Farm Report
Already preparing for winter. spent most of yesterday in the barn prepping it for hay delivery today.

A surprise afternoon visitor
soe pinks_0.JPG

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Lookout's picture

...butterflies are becoming less and less common.

I find the relationship of Chinese philosophy and rivers quite interesting.

The Daoists observed Nature and the elements which constitute Nature, defining their characteristics in proto-scientific ways. Fascinated by the nature of water and rivers, they applied these observations to a code of life guiding their own conduct and advocating it to others. 'Going with the flow (of Nature)' could be said to define the essence of their philosophy.

http://www.sacu.org/waterways.html

The article goes on...

According to the Huai Nan Tzu, again quoted by Needham (SCC. Vol. 2, p. 51):

He who conforms to the course of the Tao (Dao), following the natural processes of Heaven and Earth, finds it easy to manage the whole world. Thus it was that Yu the Great was able to engineer the canals following the nature of water and using it as his guide.

Applied to the force of flowing water, the Dao De Jing explains:

Nothing under Heaven is softer or more yielding than water, but when it attacks things hard and resistant, there is not one of them that can prevail. (Waley, The Way and its Power, p. 238).

Daoist thinking actually influenced the way hydraulic engineers dealt with problems concerning water control and construction works. In ancient China there were two rival schools of thought relating to hydraulic engineering: one believed in building high dykes to control rivers and the other in digging deep channels. The Daoists believed that to build high dykes was to confine Nature instead of letting rivers take their natural course. Instead, they argued, digging deep channels accorded with the principles of Nature, the 'Valley Spirit' and the 'Feminine' characteristic of concavity and receptivity.

Thus the legendary water control engineer Li Ping (Li Bing - 3rd century BC,) is recorded to have instructed:

Dig the channels deep and keep dykes low. Where the channel runs straight, dredge it in the middle.

Another Daoist-inclined hydraulic engineer in the Han Dynasty, Chia Jang, produced a wonderful analogy, advocating the free-flow of rivers in a memorial to the Emperor in 6 BC:

Rivers are like the mouths of infants - if one tries to stop them up they only yell the louder or else are suffocated.

In another analogy based on wu wei (in action), Chia Jang stated:

Those who are good at controlling water give it the best opportunities to flow away;
Those who are good at controlling the people give them plenty of chance to talk.
(Needham, SCC, Vol. 4, Part 3, pp. 234-51)

Li Bing's river engineering project, Dujiangyan, is still in use over 2000 years since it's construction. It is still celebrated...
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/destinations/asia/china/water-...

Predating Li Bing is Yu the Great a figure wrapped in myth and legend as are most 4000 year old stories.

Collaborating with Houji, a semi-mythical agricultural master about whom little is concretely known, Yu successfully devised a system of flood controls that were crucial in establishing the prosperity of the Chinese heartland. Instead of directly damming the rivers' flow, Yu made a system of irrigation canals which relieved floodwater into fields, as well as spending great effort dredging the riverbeds.[9] Yu is said to have eaten and slept with the common workers and spent most of his time personally assisting the work of dredging the silty beds of the rivers for the thirteen years the projects took to complete

There's a world of difference in the Yellow River (China's sorrow) and the Yangtze as a result.

Well I hope everyone's day unfolds like water flowing downhill and that all is well with all of you. Thanks for the thought provoking OT SoE, and I hope I did not jump the gun on you with this info.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

studentofearth's picture

@Lookout The civilization timeline comparing China and World is very complete.

I hope I did not jump the gun on you with this info

The info will unfold itself in its own time. The plan to write multiple OT on the subject appeared in my head only last night.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

studentofearth's picture

discussed in current Keiser Report
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWNQbweeRME]

Link to the blog posting discussed in the first segment regarding the Medici Cycle

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

enhydra lutris's picture

and especially that fascinating video. I found myself wondering where that one guy was running to and why and noting that with all the activity, it wasn't frenetic. Wonder if that depicted the reality of the day. Maybe so given some of the cultural traditions.

Not remotely preparing for winter here, still awaiting summer. We've had a few hot days, but not so much, and are actually still planting odds and ends here and there. We keep getting infested by aphids and white flies, and I'm contemplating re-purposing my hand pump sprayer from its prior use as a sprayer for a homebrew vinegar based broad leaf weed herbicide sprayer into just a pressurized water sprayer for dealing with those two types of pests.

Have a good one.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Raggedy Ann's picture

@enhydra lutris
Thanks for the OT, SOE. Always interesting to know more about Chinese culture. I believe we have a lot to learn from them.

I'm responding to el and his aphid and whitefly problem. Make up a mixture of water and capsaicin from cayenne pepper. We do that at home. There are products on the market, but we like to make our own and keep it natural.

We are enjoying beautiful weather here. Of course, we need rain, but I do have to say the days are wonderful. I'm a summer person, anyway, so this is my time of year!

Have a beautiful day, folks! Pleasantry

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

enhydra lutris's picture

@Raggedy Ann

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@Raggedy Ann N/T

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Raggedy Ann's picture

@studentofearth
I'll ask my husband, as he is the one that whips up the concoction for all our inside plants. I'll post the recipe later today or tomorrow!

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

detroitmechworks's picture

Mainly because my focus on history is a little farther east. In Japan, the Christians ran guns to various warlords, as long as they gave lip service to Christianity and were willing to allow them to set up churches in their territory.

Of course, the Christians liked to explain that it was all done for the good of unifying Japan... And that the suggestions that the missionaries were just precursors for conquest were TOTALLY ridiculous.

So, IMHO, the Tokugawa Shogun decision to kick them out was pretty justified.

Sorry, just rereading my Japanese history recently, because if you're going to be studying something, it helps to understand the culture and history what you're studying.

But one thing you do learn is that the west, and the US in particular, has a bad track record of imposing our will on other people and THINKING that once we've done it that no further effort is required to maintain our dominance. Admiral Perry sailed in and figured that one quick show of force would get us a new colony. Instead, Japan took one freaking look at us, and saw what was coming.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

enhydra lutris's picture

@detroitmechworks
the Christians' coffers from the spread of Christianity. There is sometimes an incidental spread of technology, but that is incidental and could be spread by ordinary cultural diffusion. And, sometimes it is the reverse with Christians working to suppress and destroy technology and knowledge that doesn't agree with their primitive dogma of the time.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@detroitmechworks centuries. Christianity is one of the tools of Imperial expansion. It was and is used to conquer the indigenous cultures and sovereign nations. The successful list is long and includes Germanic tribes, North America, South America and Africa. The resistance of China allows us to see the patterns that are used to creep into a community and take over control. Japan able to look at how resistance in China was progressing in the 1800's and chose a different method. They became a modern imperial power and joined the expansion into other parts of Asia and surrounding islands.

The patterns are similar in modern America to initiate major changes with differing philosophies Christian Right and Poor People's Campaign. Both Republican and Democratic parties use churches and religious positions to justify policy and an individual loyalty.

Christianity is still a tool for dominance of Chinese Citizens
Can Christianity save China?

The growth of Christianity in China has been astonishing. At this point, it's no longer a question of if China will become a Christian nation, but when. The ramifications of this religious shift are massive, and will shake China's culture and economy to their cores.

Vatican: China deal stalled due to China being, well … China

The months-long diplomatic effort by the Vatican to reach an accommodation with China over the appointment of bishops and freedom to practice the Catholic faith has apparently run aground. Pope Francis had hoped to find an agreement that would at least give the Holy See some influence over its leaders in China,

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

An author who goes by the name of Haruki Murakami. It's called Hafka on the Shore written around 2002. Fiction, a metaphysical mindbender. Somewhat sci-fi. Have always absorbed Asean culture with ease. Zen, Judo, even the writing stye fascinates. Domo

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earthling1's picture

Most of the early technology was possibly given ( per Gavin Mensies )to the west in the Zang He voyages to facilitate tribute to the Emperor, including a world map.
Truly the first "exceptional" civilization.
Looking forward to your future chapters, SOE.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

studentofearth's picture

@earthling1 the teaser you just provided

Most of the early technology was possibly given ( per Gavin Mensies )to the west

is an idea I have been exploring.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

earthling1's picture

@studentofearth @studentofearth
of a China far more technologically advanced than the west including Europe. They referred to Europeans as intellectually stunted and backward barbarians.
Interestingly, the native North American indians thought the same, ( per Charles C. Mann "1491" ) Europeans were stupid, lazy, short, stinky people prone to violence.
Convincingly, Mensies asserts the map of the world was given to the west so they could find their way to the Emperor to provide tribute.
It was this map that Columbus used to "find" America and Magellan to circumnavigate the globe.

Small edit.

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Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

mhagle's picture

@earthling1

They embraced Linux from the beginning. IMO there is no doubt they are far far ahead of us. They just don't brag about it.

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

mhagle's picture

And the video was fabulous. Wow. All of this going on in China and it was the Dark Ages in Europe?

There is much going on in China that I find impressive. High speed rail. The high speed rail connecting China with Europe. I think that is significant because IMO, the climate is going to fuck with sea travel and air travel. I love flying. It is only 2 hours from DFW to MSP. However, at what point is erratic weather going to create giant lightening bolts that hit airplanes? When is the gulf stream current going to stop so that super storms are throwing boulders onshore? (Jim Hansen prediction) Seems to me that high speed rail might be much safer.

The restoration of the Loess Plateau. That is impressive.

I think this was in a recent Richard D. Wolff video. The last ten years wages in China have quadrupled while ours have laid stagnant. [video:https://youtu.be/nhxWNOtUn90]
I enjoyed this speech, but it is over two hours long.

My farm report is that I harvested/am still harvesting a 100(?) huge onions. Still fighting squash bugs every day. Shade cloths and am pruning tomatoes. The past two years I would have harvested all of my tomatoes by now. However, it was still getting into the upper 30s in April and then shot to the 100s in May. I started beautiful varieties of tomatoes in my greenhouse and probably planted out 150 plants. First group went in on March 1. No ripe tomatoes yet, and very few green tomatoes on the vine.

So this brings me back to thinking about an underground greenhouse again. Heard rumor of a dude about 50 miles west building one this year. Hmm . . .

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Marilyn

"Make dirt, not war." eyo

studentofearth's picture

@mhagle very efficient summer and winter. Had a small fan at the roof line on one end to expel excess heat in the summer. Never got too hot for the plants.
The design was similar to example 12.

Thanks for including a farm report.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.