Thursday Open Thread 3-8-2018


Over the years I have become more disillusioned about accepting science as the primary reason to adopt a solution to a problem. Instead of a discipline of discovery and method to identify best practices, products or solutions it has become a tool of marketing to push one product over another or to discredit historical practices.

In November of 2011 I traveled to China, with other pharmacists on a cultural exchange of medical practices. In Xian (location of the terracota warriors) we explored some of the work being done to compare Western treatment methods with TCM (traditional chinese medicine). One of the obstacles to direct comparisons was how medical conditions were defined differently. For example diabetes was not considered a singular condition and monitoring blood sugars was not part of any treatment protocol or diagnostic process.

Interesting new overview of diabetics
in Sweden and Finland will be changing the way diabetes is managed in the future.

The researchers analysed certain characteristics – such as body weight, blood sugar control and presence of antibodies – against the likelihood of disease complications and need for insulin.
.....
In the ANDIS study, blood samples were taken from people at registration, allowing the researchers to analyse their DNA and blood chemistry.

They also looked at various patient characteristics, complication rates – such as kidney and diabetic eye problems – and use of medications. People were clustered according to 6 main characteristics:

  • age at diagnosis
  • body mass index (BMI)
  • glycated haemoglobin (HbA1c) – a long-term indication of blood sugar control
  • function of the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas
  • level of insulin resistance – a measurement of how effectively, if at all, cells respond to insulin
  • presence of glutamate decarboxylase antibodies (GADA)

The complete study and methodology is behind a pay wall.

We identified five replicable clusters of patients with diabetes, which had significantly different patient characteristics and risk of diabetic complications. In particular, individuals in cluster 3 (most resistant to insulin) had significantly higher risk of diabetic kidney disease than individuals in clusters 4 and 5, but had been prescribed similar diabetes treatment. Cluster 2 (insulin deficient) had the highest risk of retinopathy. In support of the clustering, genetic associations in the clusters differed from those seen in traditional type 2 diabetes.

Five primary groupings were identified. The current groupings of Type I and Type II diabetes is only part of the picture.

Cluster 1 - severe autoimmune diabetes is broadly the same as the classical type 1 - it hit people when they were young, seemingly healthy and an immune disease left them unable to produce insulin
Cluster 2 - severe insulin-deficient diabetes patients initially looked very similar to those in cluster 1 - they were young, had a healthy weight and struggled to make insulin, but the immune system was not at fault
Cluster 3 - severe insulin-resistant diabetes patients were generally overweight and making insulin but their body was no longer responding to it
Cluster 4 - mild obesity-related diabetes was mainly seen in people who were very overweight but metabolically much closer to normal than those in cluster 3
Cluster 5 - mild age-related diabetes patients developed symptoms when they were significantly older than in other groups and their disease tended to be milder

Almost all of us know someone with diabetes (9.4% of the population) or prediabetes (33.4%) how to manage the condition is not the same for everyone.

Farm Report
A pair of honking, Canadian geese flew directly overhead as I stepped out of the house this morning. Spring search for nesting sites has begun. Marmots are cleaning out their burrows.
soe morning sheep.JPG

There is very little vegetation to compete with the colorful mosses and lichens.
soe moss.jpg

soe lichen.jpg

soe maple trunk.jpg

Only 5 weeks until irrigation season. Signs of the neighbors working on the ditches and fields.
soe backhoe.jpg

soe tractor.jpg

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fascinating. It is probably the difference between pure science and science for profit. The capitalists pollute everything they touch.

We had lichen on several trees in our woods. Didn't know what it was. Glad to find out it is harmless to the host.

Interesting OT. Good morning and thanks for the post.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

studentofearth's picture

@dkmich process of using scientific methodology to find best practices. Most of the individuals I met overseeing the studies were western trained physicians. They found themselves using a wider range of TCM methods than expected. The understanding of how the world and body works has been hard to comprehend from my western, Judaeo/Christian perspective. Most English translations and explanations include a western bias with either contempt or adulation for TCM. Being able to move between a western outlook of the universe and an oriental increases the number of approaches that can be used to solve individual and societal problems.

Hong Kong practitioners in the hospitals and care facilities were very Western in their outlook. Any concept using TCM was considered superstition and not worth evaluating.

edited grammar

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth
there are no anatomical "lines of energy" -- a phrase that doesn't even have meaning in English, whatever it might have meant in the original Chinese.

etc.

TCM might have accidentally stumbled upon various effective therapies through trial and error, just as Western herbalism discovered many effective treatments, but much of the body of "theory" upon which TCM rests is random superstition, indistinguishable from various western flavors of quackery (e.g. "imbalance of humours") that we might classify as "Traditional Western Medicine".

None of which commentary necessarily represents a defense of western medicine and the scientific enterprise that buzzes behind it (search "Ioannidis findings false" for a real eye opener, one of the most important scientific papers of that last 50 years), but anyone with Type I diabetes is going to die, and die soon, if not treated with insulin -- a therapy that would have been utterly impossible to derive under the epistemological framework underpinning TCM, and that is pretty damned hard to apply with maximum effectiveness in the absence of regular blood glucose monitoring. (Long before western science developed accurate glucose tests, TWM practitioners had developed the straightforward assay for confirming a diabetes diagnosis: They tasted the urine. If TCM practitioners never got that far, I'm unimpressed.) Even in the modern western treatment context, Type I diabetes slices 10 to 15 years off the lifespan of the typical sufferer, to say nothing of quality-of-life compromises -- but that's a big improvement over 100 years ago, when it sliced 50 to 90 years off the lifespan of the typical sufferer.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

studentofearth's picture

@UntimelyRippd Thoughtful article on the waxing and waning of the practice of Acupuncture in Chinese culture and current use.

The 'nine needles' comprised the arrowhead needle for superficial pricking, the round needle for massaging, the blunt needle for knocking or pressing, the three edged needle for puncturing a vein, the sword-like needle for draining abscesses, the sharp round needle for rapid pricking, the filliform needle, the long needle for thick muscles and the large needle for puncturing painful joints.

The main needle now used for acupuncture is the filliform as most of the others have been replaced by more sophisticated surgical instruments, for instance, the sword-like needle has been replaced by the scalpel.

Diabetes is an interesting example for the foundational argument of western medical philosophy being superior to eastern philosophy. Chinese herbology is closer to western term pharmacology the use of plant, animal and mineral as treatments to achieve or maintain health. The discovery of using an animal product as a treatment for diabetes by a western scientist was less than 100 years ago. Trial and error with systematic observation led to the the discovery of injecting a dog pancreas extract to effect "sweet urine" and increase the length of life. The hubris of classifying all types of diabetes within the treatment methodology for type I diabetes (insulin dependent) and blood sugar control as the primary medical goal for diabetic treatment may be contributing to the high incidence of certain fatal complications due to high level of systemic insulin. Time and further studies will fill in the bigger picture to improve medical outcomes and prevention for all classifications of diabetes.

TCM medical conditions were not based on ICD-9 or 10 (international classification of disease) terminology. Straight forward comparisons are not always easy. Description in Chinese texts of Xiao-ke (wasting and thirsting) and Tang-niao-bing (sugar urine illness) were probably referring to of types of diabetes. A few of the monitoring methods for effectiveness of treatment was observing the changes in attractiveness of urine to ants (level of sugar) and odor changes in urine and breath (ketones).

The lack of a current tool to measure and quantify something is not the same as lack of existence. Qi is more likely to be defined in western terms by physics than health sciences.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth
of physics, because there is no evidence of any kind that any such thing exists, anymore than there is any evidence that the location of the plumbing of a house affects the overall physical or emotional health of the occupants, per the superstition of feng shui.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

enhydra lutris's picture

this weekend. If you arise at a set time, by the clock, you will again be facing winter sunrise times and patterns as they roll the calendar back a month or three. Then, months from now, you will again start to see the spring sun creeping up.

The results of the diabetes study were an interesting read but, seemed to me, to miss a group. My sis, late onset, long ago said that her diagnosis was other', not classic type 1 or type 2. I suspect maybe 3. Our mom, however was a 'pregnancy induced' diabetic. Late onset resulting from middle age pregnancy. Skinny as a rail, but nonetheless brittle. However, xtra data point, her family is riddles with what we now recognize as autoimmune conditions, and her kids too.

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@enhydra lutris report on the study.

The study was only on Scandinavians and the risk of diabetes varies considerably around the world, such as the increased risk in South Asians.

Dr Salem said: "There is still a massively unknown quantity - it may well be that worldwide there are 500 subgroups depending on genetic and local environment effects.

"Their analysis has five clusters, but that may grow."

My maternal family tree has a history of "brittle" diabetes caused by pancreas damage due to hemochromatosis (iron overload). Response to diabetic treatment was not typical and individuals were often accused of not complying with doctors orders.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Granma's picture

Western medicine when you have time, perhaps in another OT? I suppose if things are defined differently, it would be difficult to even attempt to compare outcomes for patients. It sounds like traditional Chinese medicine considers the whole person and body rather than a bunch of parts to be treated separately.

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studentofearth's picture

@Granma length of life, functionality of daily activities, satisfaction in life and ability to live independently. I will work on weaving in some of my thoughts in other diaries.
Thanks for the interest.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Anja Geitz's picture

I also believe we should be doing more to include a holistic approach to our wellbeing by integrating the mind, body & spirit as an ally in our healing efforts.

Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic and initiating a much needed dialogue about advocating for ourselves with our pharmaceutically driven healthcare providers.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

studentofearth's picture

@Anja Geitz A car accident I want western emergency medicine to repair the body. Autoimmune or conditions associated with aging TCM methods to assist the body to use its capacity to heal is an approach worth exploring.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Anja Geitz's picture

@studentofearth

Acute care may require surgery or other necessary invasive procedures. But there are also circumstances where surgery does not have to be the only option, and many times treatment is not presented that way.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@Anja Geitz if you use their "services". Occidental accidents occur regularly in care plans restricted by profit motives.

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