Solid Majority of Dems want Bernie to have a "Major Role"
Far from being a Pariah of the Party, the Skunk at the Picnic, an overwhelming 75% of Democrats want Bernie Sanders to have a "major role" in shaping the party's positions. Bernie must be saying the right stuff, even for those weighed down by their "pragmatism".
And this is a shocker, 2 out of 3 Dems think Sanders should be the V.P.
I doubt Hillary sees it that way, however -- given all the ways she's been less that truthful about Bernie's views and positions, over the last year. Afterall, how can she continue to be an apologist for the corporate status quo -- if she has an outspoken fire-brand for change, constantly reminding her to do the right thing, at her side?
In a word, she can't ... so she won't ... ever see Sanders the same way the Majorities of People do -- as a serious agent for real change. Her pragmatism of catering to the GOP, would never allow it. Not on her Watch.
Now onto that Sanders-favorable poll ...
Poll: U.S. Democrats want 'major role' for Sanders
Thomson Reuters, aol.com -- June 12, 2016
[...]
More than three-quarters of Democrats say Sanders should have a "major role" in shaping the party's positions, while nearly two thirds say Hillary Clinton - who beat him for the nomination -- should pick him as her vice-presidential running mate, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll.
[...]Sanders has said he will continue to push for a liberal agenda heading into the Democratic National Convention in July -- when Clinton's nomination is expected to become official -- though he has hinted he does not want his presence to hurt the Democrats' chances of keeping the White House.
[...]The poll, conducted June 7-10 -- right after Clinton sewed up the delegate majority to become the presumptive Democratic nominee -- showed that while most Democrats want Sanders to line up behind Clinton, about 44 percent would like him to make an independent run for the White House. Some 47 percent said he should not.
The poll included 455 respondents and has a credibility interval, a measure of accuracy, of 5.3 percentage points.
If only those same Dems that like Sanders, weren't as enamored with the status quo DNC-pick, on the basis of what's practical, what's pragmatic -- then maybe we (as a nation) could already be on the road to real People-driven change, led by an unabashed visionary; and not stuck on the tired old middle-of-the-road commute of decapitating compromises ... otherwise known as "More of the Same."
If only Dems voted their hearts, and not their fears ... Perhaps Sanders legacy will be, that he has sparked such wide-spread progressive awakening? Of demanding more ... of demanding better ... of doing the Right Thing.
This snapshot poll would seem to indicate so. Of course, with Senator Warren jump onto the Clinton Bandwagon, she is likely to co-opt those pro-Sanders numbers, by the time the next Dem temperature-taking Poll rolls around.
If only the Democratic Party had a Heart ... some Courage ... and a Brain ... that Progressive Platform could be more than just another unrealized Dream.
Comments
imo
this poll doesn't make Hillary and the Party-insiders more palatable.
But it does make throngs of Democratic Voters, seem a bit more human.
a bit more concerned about pursuing real progressive values.
Agree there
I think the constant horse-race coverage and ignoring of issues by the media is meant to obscure the views of average Democratic voters. Issues-based polls are clear, so they are ignored. A candidate who forthrightly advocates for a left-leaning agenda is marginalized and his agenda misrepresented or ignored. If the issues were featured, Sanders would likely have beating Clinton, voter suppression and hacking notwithstanding.
The Democratic party establishment is used to ignoring and manipulating its base. They've ignored poll findings like this before. The difference this year is that the electoral power of an old-fashioned FDR Democrat, unbeholden to billionaires, was glimpsed for the first time in decades. It is very significant that Bernie consistently won in rural counties, even in many states where he lost the contest. There is a New Deal constituency out there, and it is not currently captured well by the Democratic party, for all the reasons we all know so well. Bernie is showing the way to a new politics, one that looks back eight decades in many ways. How he maneuvers going forward will determine to a large extent how the movement moves forward from here. Bernie knows that, and I believe that continuing to build the movement is a far higher priority for him than getting Hillary Clinton elected. We know that, and so does she.
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If sheep could be polled
They'd be strongly in favor of getting some better quality grass (and maybe a big fence to keep wolves away). But they would still follow their shepherd onto a truck to be shipped off to become part of someone's dinner.
Just had a look over at HuffPost
And wow. It is wall to wall FEAR there.
Trump will start a nuclear war and we will all die in flames. He is the worstest ever in the history of worse.
Imagine this message nonstop for the next five months. This is how negative they need to be in order, they think, to make Hillary the acceptable alternative. Sigh
I suspect Jill Stein's numbers will start to climb. Or maybe the fear will work; it has before.
It's Hillary who's the Mad Bomber
who's apt to provoke a nuclear war, if Obama doesn't set that up as his October Surprise.
HRC not mad bomber - provide link please
Hillary is a hawk, yes, but please provide some back up for your assertion that she is a "mad bomber". She supports the Iran nuclear deal.
I'll piss you off even further. I'll probably vote for her. I may not know until my actual ballot is sitting on my kitchen table, but I think we need both a political strategy and an electoral strategy.
The political strategy is to keep on organizing, outside and inside the Democratic party. The electoral strategy is not to lose any ground - not to allow a demagogue to try to take us back 100 years in international relations and domestic policy.
Voting for Trump will make people suffer. Mostly brown and poor people all over the world. Not voting will do the same. A 3rd party run - the same. The young white men who say that they are anarchists and will vote for Trump to "Burn that mfer down" are so immersed in their own privilege that they can't fricking see straight.
IIRC Hecate started the "Mad Bomber" meme
and given that HRC has an actual track record of supporting and encouraging violence and bloodshed in the Middle East, in Central America, in South America, and elsewhere - there's a certain amount of truth and accuracy to it.
Trump has NO track record of anything other than shouting loudly and crudely, and brandishing a toothpick. (But he does have a lot of Jerkass followers who want to beat up on some'a "Them", however they define whoever they think is "unfairly" standing in their way.) Hecate started calling him the "Hairball" - as in what the cat yorks up.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
She supports it *now*. As of July 2015!!!
She dislikes the TPP now, too. A minute ago it was the gold standard of trade deals. Once she gets past Bernie, it'll be the gold standard again. #WhichHillary?
She has, in the past, said that she would "obliterate" Iran if they attacked Israel. Given what Israel can perceive as an attack, the boundaries of which seem pretty broad, I'm not sure exactly what she means. Could mean something a lot less than Iran sending its fighter planes to bomb the hell out of Jerusalem. In any event, telling Putin's main source of Middle Eastern oil that they'd better behave or she'll obliterate them, while pressuring Putin in the Ukraine (a source of natural gas) and stepping up the war in Syria (a territorial foothold in the ME), all at the same time, suggests a reckless willingness to risk a hot war with another superpower.
The very fact that Bob Kagan, Victoria Nuland, Bill Kristol and Dick Cheney like her foreign policy should be enough to make you take this very, very seriously.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The brass ring the bastards are trying to grab--
their victory--is when evil becomes normal.
That's what political leaders are supposed to do for the corrupt rich, if they can. That's the best possible service they can give. Make the people accept horrific evil, which would have outraged them in the past, as just the way things are.
Which candidate can best normalize evil? Which candidate is likely to move the Overton window further right? Which candidate can make horrific wars, tyranny, and economic destruction look like "just the way the world is?"
The electoral strategy is to "not lose any ground?" What have we been doing for the past 30 years? How many governorships have we lost supporting Clinton New Democrats? How many state legislatures? How did we lose the House in 1994? When we *did* get it back, through Dean, Obama, and a bunch of well-meaning progressives who worked their butts off (I was one)how did we lose it again, this time apparently for good? Why did we lose it again? Why does the Tea Party exist?
How long are you going to ignore the actual effects of endorsing a candidate that 56% of the country believes is untrustworthy and corrupt?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
...calling it like it is...
Your comments about normalizing evil are scary and thought provoking. You are calling it what it is. This whole concept could be a separate essay.
The "Christian" right has failed to stop the normalizing of evil, and as a believer this has greatly disappointed me. And by failed I imply not that they tried and fell short, but that they don't seem to care and in fact feed on the frenzy of evil in politics and power. Bigotry is a form of power; one group of people over another is but one small example.
IMO, the Clinton are evil personified. My faith in our country will only be restored when we stop giving them political power. I will sleep better at night once they have been held accountable for their dealings.
Bernie, with his concern for the little guy that can't stand up for himself, is completely alien to this evil mongering. Is it any wonder they call him "crazy" Bernie?
That would be a third essay in my head, not yet written :-)
The others being:
HILLARY: AN IMMENSE VORTEX DOWN WHICH PEOPLE THROW POLITICAL CAPITAL
and
ARE WE THIS LAME? WAYS IN WHICH WE ON THE LEFT GET SUCCESSFULLY PROPAGANDIZED
I'm trying to come up with a less shitty title for the second one!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Hillary
Actively tried to sabotage the Iran nuclear deal. Don't give us that flip-flopped bullshit that she's pointing at with a thousand neon signs, pretending that was her position all along.
And that last paragraph there is sounding awfully close to a "Berniebros" catcall. Not to mention it completely ignores the fact that Hillary has already proven herself to have a disastrous effect on brown and poor people globally.
Like it or not, voting for either Hillary or Trump is going to be "losing ground." Both of them are a disaster, but only one of them is already a proven disaster.
Jill's facebook likes
have gone from 190000 to 247000 in two weeks
Solidarity forever
Hopefully
that translates into real world votes.
Hillbots already using nightclub shooting to tweet...
#Imwithher
Some people are just freaking Sick.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Probable explanation
It's likely the Hillary partisans are not responding to his message so much as seeking a symbolic means of placating his supporters in the interests of party unity. What "major role" could Bernie possibly play at this point that would truly impact the policy initiatives of a Clinton administration? A prime time speaking slot at the convention? Being allowed meaningful input in the shaping of the party platform? Whatever role Bernie is given, it will represent empty symbolism devoid of actual content. At the end of the day, Hillary Clinton is the avowed enemy of all the reforms Sanders has spent all these months campaigning for, and no amount of grand gestures and happy talk is going to change that one iota.
inactive account
This.
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
Symbolism vs. substance
Rule #1 of political survival is: Know your enemy. Hill and the Dem party are the enemy of progressivism and we are their enemy. I hope
Bernie recognizes that while he's in D.C., getting bamboozled by the Big Dogs holding out carrots to him and appeals to be reasonable. I pray he remembers the revolution he started and doesn't forsake it for a few crumbs of transitory glory.
She can't make him vp....
In the world of clintonian politics, she has to be seen punishing those that don't get into line. Loyality to Clinton isn't just a matter of being paid, or believing in the quality of her policies(puck), no, the most important thing in loyality in the Clinton world, is fear.
Granted Sanders has her in a catch 22 atm, if she punishes him/progressives the party will split and she will lose, if she rewards him or does nothing, that which keeps her other lacky's in line will be diminished.
More likely she is going to try and trick him/us, give us something meaningless, they have already started, they give him a few seats on the party platform committee, and even their, they vetoed one of his picks.
#bernieorbust
Kinda like the Mafia way, if you can't earn respect legitmately
demand it through fear and intimidation.
Oh wait, Clintons, Mafia, 6 of one half dozen of the other. Both are organized crime syndicates.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
The fastest way to make someone irrelevant
is to give them the #2 spot.
Hope to hell that if it is offered, Bernie won't take VP (unless it looks like he'll have to step it as prez).
The CounterPunch article Cass posted really nails it.
Americans have their heads us their asses about our government and political process. They're still blaming Nader for what happened to Gore.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Didn't read the article, but most polls suggest
the majority of Americans agree with me. They dislike and distrust Hillary, they dislike and distrust Trump, they think both parties are a pile of shit, they really really wish that a third-party candidate would come out of just about anywhere and save them from this hell.
Oh, and they think this election is rigged.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
That is awesome! She is going to feel pushed by numbers like
that. Too bad the 75% didn't vote that way in the primaries, but that's done.
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Why would one ever feel pushed when the votes don't matter....
because you can just hack the machines and disenfranchise the voters that would get rid of you?
She has no need to move her positions because we have no leverage anymore.
At least not unless we demand it, and that is going to take some real action.
American's love to bag on the French for being, "Wussies" but right now the French people are showing that they have far more "Ballz" than we do.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Better to govern with consent than by hack. You never know
when you'll get caught. And as they say, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." (JFK, actually)
The more we discuss our discontent, the more TPTB will realize they are closer to the revolution. Sure, the chances she feels pushed are far from 100%. But better that 75% of the party supports Bern than some small number.
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The .001% are ignoring all storm warnings
like the fools who supposedly held a "Hurricane Party" in a hotel that was right in the path of Hurricane Camille. (The story has been, at best, greatly exaggerated, but it's the attitude that counts.)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I believe that Bernie is and astute-enough politician
to see all the ways in which he could be sidelined or co-opted, which would end up weakening the Movement he has awakened. He is (imo) picking his way through a minefield right now, and knows he has to play his cards close to his chest for a while.
The election-season is in another phase right now, in a slowdown of time (of timing) which, after the heads-down, full-speed-ahead primaries, feels like we're hit a wall and have slammed to a halt. Really, though is that the full-on mosh-pit period has ended, and Bernie is now having to feel his way through a period of the slow-paced byzantine minuet that is DC kabuki. Bernie knows how this game is played, and I have every faith that he will do his best to make the most empowering choices for his people and their Movement.
IMO, both VP and 3rd-party options will do nothing but weaken his position and imperil the future of our Movement. And, frankly, I think it would be wrong of us, his supporters, to try to force him into a position (like 3rd Party run), when much more useful paths may exist.
(meant as a reply to mouselander)
Fantasy Dream number 1333
Sanders knows more about the FBI investigation than we do which might make it imperative for him to accept a VP role. In an effort to win, HRC selects him as VP. Within a month after the November election, FBI finishes the investigation into the Clintons. The DOJ thinking that a Grand Jury will not convict a presumptive president guesses wrong. January 2017, Sanders is sworn in.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
No. She's going with Warren
If you were paying attention this past week, Warren and Shill are practically joined at the hip. And Warren's been going after Trump as if her life depends on it. Both share the same neocon foreign policy outlook and Warren just lost all her progressive credibility and endorsed Hill. Besides, get with the program: don't you know the meme for the election is "Breaking the Glass Ceiling", aka "Female Identity Politics"?
3rd party is necessary, whether with or without Sanders
Would be better with.
55% of the American public wants a 3rd-party run, according to one poll.
Both frontrunners intensely, historically, disliked and distrusted
Party numbers at a low. Going to get lower, if I'm right. 43% of electorate now indy. Will probably get higher.
Even establishment Democrats, including former elected officials, and just supporters of Hillary generally, moving into the #NeverHillary camp--*because* of her horrible campaign
This is called ruining your brand. Hillary is a vortex down which people throw political, moral, and social capital, like throwing tissue paper into a whirling centrifuge. and they just spent Warren on her, instead of saving Warren for Biden. Phew!
Both parties are dying. This is a political realignment. If democracy of any kind is to survive, new parties must step into the void left by these dying hulks.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Let's call it a "second party" --
given that even Obama admits now that there isn't much of a choice between Dem and Rep. Or we could call it a "realignment" (see e.g. my 1856 diary)...
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
unfortunately...
The people who think she's the "pragmatic" choice think that because they've been told to think that without being supplied with any context or facts... The same people still think voting dem is a way to change things for the better and triumph over the repubs...
Goddamn it
She did not "sew up the delegate majority to become the presumptive Democratic party nominee" WTF is a "presumptive Democratic party nominee" anyway! We never had one before. Isn't everybody the "presumptive" nominee until somebody clinches--or it's decided at the Convention?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Exactly!
Exactly! She has not made it to convention yet. She has not been voted on there yet.
As Bernie says, a lot can happen before then. If there is a looming DOJ indictment, do we really think the unpledged (super) delegates will still vote for her?
Good for them.
I'm a Green now.
"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama
Depending on what happens at the convention I might be right
there next to you.
From what I am hearing in my circle in the real world the Florida Democratic Party may be seeing a mass exodus on it's hands.
Even those that were ambivalent about the candidates and don't follow politics much and just vote party ticket are disgusted by the obvious voter disenfranchisement and theft that has been going on.
Florida was one of the early states that suffered voter purgers, my wife being one of them, and I think the numbers for it were really high here too but because it happened so early in the process before all the other examples came out and started gaining traction it got little attention.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
44% of Democrats think Bernie should run as an indy?
That sounds like he would get a little less than half of the Dems, at least half of the Indies, and probably most of the assorted left wing activist party members. That is better than I ever thought it would be.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Plus a few Republicans.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Probably a LOT of Republicans! n/t
If all the people who said...
If all the people who said, "I'd vote for him if he had a chance of winning" voted for him, HE WOULD WIN.
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
Barring election fraud, yes.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver