Open Thread - 04-14-23 - Gender Memories from the Courtroom
Not talking about gender identities, but born to a gender at a time when Women's Lib was trying to accomplish something like societal and work place equity and parity for women, who still make something like 65 cents to a man's $1.00. Specifically, I will address the female gender practicing law back in the 1980s, and wearing dresses and skirts. This is my experience in Southeast Texas courtrooms.
I had court each day this week. As you read this, I will be in court, representing a defendant accused of deadly conduct, namely: pulling a gun on someone at the wrong time, and in the wrong way. I made it a point to wear dresses and skirts every day, sort of in memory of those days when only male attorneys here could wear slacks. It is still rare to dress like I did this week, and judges, bailiffs, court reporters, and lawyers raved about it.
So, a client was being held for contempt in the Harris County Jail for getting behind on child support. I showed up for court in Houston. Attorneys go to the 2 tables (for plaintiffs and defendants) in all courtrooms, to sit, wait their turn for their case to be called. If the tables are full, they fill up the empty 12 seats a jury would use. On that day, I went in to join lawyers in the jury seats. All at once, the judge screamed at me to leave, sit in the general public seats. I asked why I wasn't allowed to sit with fellow attorneys? He said, "I do not allow women to sit with attorneys."
Well, I got my hearing, he made a ruling. Typically, the judge excuses you to leave, go to your office, have your staff prepare and submit the order later. Not this judge. He made me sit in the courtroom through lunch recess, ordered me to hand write the Order after he ate lunch and returned to the courtroom. Now, I had no templates, this was pre-lap top, so I had to write that puppy from scratch. When he returned, he went over that order thoroughly, hoping for a mistake. He signed it. Bastard.
I later learned he had 2 legal interns on his staff who were in law school. Women. He would not allow them to do any legal research or to attend court. They spent their internship shopping for his groceries, his lunches, his wife's birthday gifts. Anything concerning law was forbidden by them to be discussed. This was in the late 80s.
My first case was a possible life sentence case, and it went to trial before I had been in practice a year. Greener than green, mean as a honey badger. 1986.
I went to Hemphill, Texas, a lovely, historic town, and tried that armed robbery case. In anticipation of visiting my client in jail early morning or evening after court, and also, rightly anticipating the trial would go on 3 days, I rented a motel room. Now, in a couple of pre-trial hearings, I was referred to as "skirt". The judge told me I should be a court reporter because I look like one. He also took a pre-trial motion of multiple pages from my hand, told the court reporter to stop typing, go off the record, and he threw the document at me, hit me right squarely in my boobs, screamed at me, called me "skirt". As I walked out of the courtroom, a couple of cops giggled at me, called me "skirt".
Each night at the motel, I would be asleep, and be awakened by sirens, and would see red flashing lights through the window. All through the night. It was the cops. The same "skirt" cops. They would come in and watch the trial, catch me on a break,ask me if I was sleepy. Chuckle.
Well, I can say the judge in Houston is dead and gone.
I can say one of the "skirt" cops was sent to prison for running drugs. Let me chuckle.
I can say about 5 years ago, I was walking into chambers here in my county courthouse, a visiting judge was walking out of chambers, and he looked at me, leapt backwards, smacked his back against the wall, shouted "You!" I didn't immediately recognize him after 30 years, but he recognized me.
The "skirt" judge.
It was extremely difficult to be accepted into my profession. I think any female who made it, especially in rural areas, is to be commended.
While we still say, "Ladies and Gentleman, start your engines!" And we say, "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury", if you call a female lawyer a lady, you just might get screamed at for being something or other, bad, bad. (This happened to me recently.)
What I want, have always wanted, was to be treated like an equal, and to be called a lady was above mere acceptance, and recognition of my job. It was a compliment.
Comments
This is an open thread
and specifically meant to be your opportunity to drop any comment about anything, my friends!
Hey, if you figured out how to cure toenail fungus, or how to put in a call to a live person at Amazon, how to make tax prep easier, or avoid poison ivy when fence clearing, we all want to know!
Share your thoughts, we are that rare community that wants to hear, wants to add to all things positive. None of us are alone.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good luck in the courtroom today
Funny, but I attempted to post another OT today, but it got swallowed. Just as well,
I saved it so can use it on Wednesday.
Thanks for posting!
You are welcome!
I look forward to your Wednesday ot!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
OMG, OTC, that is a totally horrible summary of
your experiences. I am speechless.
I wished I would have a word for those who called you skirt. I would not hesitate to ask for you to defend me.
Wow, another thing that knocks me down.
Lady OTC. you are a courageous lawyer, for sure. stay that way.
I appear before this one judge
that is sort of strange. He has a thing about women's breasts.
When he was a lawyer, we were about to start our hearing, and he said, "I see your nipples."
Now that he is judge, he is facing a judicial conduct complain because an investigator for the prosecutor's office asked to take a break, allow her to be excused to pump milk. The judge said to this new mother, "You would have more credibility if you pumped your breast while on the witness stand."
I am glad I wasn't in the room when he did that.
If you are ever arrested in Texas, I will accept your collect call from jail, come bail you out!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
i hope I will never get arrested in Texas
and if that should ever happen I remember your generous offer. And I will pay with my china. Me and my son need so much and so often legal advice. What is a public defender in your legal system?
I need to stop being a cry-baby.
Thank you for kind conversation and comments.
Public defenders in the US
are for those that are indigent. If it is a criminal case, the court appoints a defense attorney. If it is a civil case (involving money, seeking a court order to mandate something to occur, or prohibit something from occurring), the Federal government funds law firms throughout the country and staffs them with attorneys to work for the poor. As examples, the one in my district or zone is called Lone Star Legal Services; the one in the Houston area is called Gulf Coast Legal Services. While in law school, I did some research for them for part of one of my classes.
If your son wants to know if he qualifies, he can contact a law school in his state, ask them to give him information on where the nearest indigent legal service establishment is located.
I hope that helps him.
What you have available in Germany is something you should check in to. Call a law school there.
Take care!
Have a great weekend, and fine China just sounds like a great retainer fee to me!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
thank you, so far we both didn't need one, but on the lot
my son lives on, a public defender rented a little house/cabin on that lot and I would have loved to rent it, because it was cheaper as what my son had. For the public defender it was more or less a little retreat cabin.
I need to sleep now.
Thank you for all your comments, advice and explanations.
Be well.
Sweet dreams,
Fraulein.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Just to clarify, a Fräulein is a young woman, I am old and
never got wiser or smarter through all these years that passed by and that will not change anymore in the future either.
Good Night or whatever it is right now at your woods, lady.
Be well and have a good one as many people say around here would say.
Thank you so much for sharing this experience
If I might add a comment about what it was like in those days being the husband of someone who was experiencing this. The love of my life was head and shoulders above so many others of her gender. Ok, I'll admit it... that's why I fell for her.
Anyway, there was a big gap in her sib's ages and the males in the family came along later in life. At that time and place, 50's in the southeast, the stage was set. Women knew their place. If they didn't take on that persona, they suffered the barbs of being a social outcast. Not literally -- figuratively. We had much in common... that's why I fell for her.
At this time and place there is no one left in her or my family who has any clue the personal efforts we had to make to get where we are today. Her night school, her facing the male hierarchy in her job, then rising in spite of it in that same hierarchy. Also in the 80s.
Her younger sister quipped not long ago.... you guys are so lucky.
Be well everyone.
Yep.
It has taken way too long for women to receive equal pay, and get promotions.
It is better, but we have yet to shake off all the chains.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good morning...
How things have changed with gender identity. I remember when girls and women were finally allowed to wear pants...provided it was a pant suit. Whatta world.
Sorry about all the shit women were (and still are) dealing with. The antiwar movement was closely linked to the women's movement back in the 60's. Sadly both have been cooped and largely dismissed today.
The only wardrobe issue I've encountered is requiring a necktie. I won't wear one. They are stupid, uncomfortable, and useless except as a phallic ornament (originally designed to cover the buttons going through the button hole).
Hope your case goes well today, and thanks for the OT!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
The bastards calling me "skirt"
new I would not be allowed to go into the attorney area o the courtroom unless I was in a dress or skirt.
I think we were allowed to wear slacks on Fridays when I was in high school. It was in the 90s when women attorneys could appear in court in slacks. Seems to this day, we wear jackets with them virtually all the time.
But then, men are required to wear jackets and ties. We are the only profession left with a dress code!
Well, and waitresses at Hooters.
Court dragged on all morning. We negotiated a great plea bargain, but the new clerical staff with the newly sworn in district attorney are incompetent. Rather than giving them a third change to correct one word entry on their form, I wrote it in by hand and the attorneys initialed it.
I was getting hungry!
Take care, have a nice neck tieless weekend!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I can imagine
...what you went through OTC. I think the difficulties trial lawyers face under "ordinary" circumstances are challenging enough. I truly admire your perseverance and dedication.
Wishing the best in all your future litigation and trials. More power to you!
語必忠信 行必正直
It has never been an easy career,
or safe one. But, I decided to be a lawyer when I was 12. Absolutely no regrets.
Have a wonderful weekend! I hope your home is edging close to being fully refurbished.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
The worst thing done to women
was to insist that they weren’t pretty enough on their own looks without having to apply gobs of makeup. I played that game for a year and then said screw it. My eyes are expressive enough without mascara and my tanned skin looks fine to me. Even worse though was thinking that women should have to wear ungawdly heels to draw attention to their legs and how many feet are now ruined because of the fck me heels? Nylons? Pffft! Don’t even get me started on bras! Nasty things that I have proudly refused to wear for decades? Kudos to any woman who has put up with that crap, but it should never have been required. IMHO of course.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
You left out girdles!
I admit to wearing high heels, but not for comfort or leg appearance enhancement. I want a more even eye level with the men. I don't want them standing too close and over me.
Since the beginning, cultures demanded women cover this or that body part. They are shamed if not pretty, called whores if they are pretty.
Men who are miserable in a neck tie, which I entirely understand, would lose their minds if they had to wear a bra!
I ditch mine as soon as I get home from work.
My Mom hated them, only donned one if she had to go out in public. My brother and I discussed the Texas law which demands women be buried in a bra. We felt so damn sorry for her!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Girdles are bad,
corsets worse, but heels are the worst. I can speak from personal experience, having had a very nice musical theater gig as the drummer in the all-girl stage band for a production of Cabaret ("Even the orchestra is beautiful!"). I was able to tolerate the absurd amount of elastic and countless hooks, busk, and laces required to convert my somewhat potatoesque male carcass into something resembling femaleness, but I gotta tellya that playing kick drum and hi-hat in heels is *right out*. Not to mention the beating that my fake boobs took when I forgot they were there while crossing over hands for drum fills. Good thing that there were no nerve endings in there. No bueno, baybee, no bueno at all. And don't even get me started on the garters...
And yes, they really do make character shoes with 3" kitten heels in women's size 14. They were Death. I burned 'em.
We just saw a performance of Kinky Boots on tour last season. I have *mad respect* for those folks. And like any other American male born in the previous century, I have a completely involuntary heel fetish bred into me that I just can't stop. But there's nothing like the old saw to really bring you back to reality: "Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Then, at the very least, you are a mile away, and he doesn't have any shoes...."
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Lordy!
Well, at least you drummed right through the pain!
What an experience!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Wouldn't have
missed it for the world. I learned a lot about life during that gig. An ingenue I definitely wasn't, but the Kit Kat Club was *supposed* to inhabited by, shall we say, somewhat less-than-innocent women. And in perfect keeping with the character, my dress and corset (worn on the outside, in proper whorehouse style) *were* black. Used to be, when you went to a house of ill repute, if you actually wanted a man you'd just ask for the girl in the black dress...
I just didn't know that I'd get blisters both on my toes (expected) and on the crests of my hipbones (what???). *That* was a revelation. They callused up quickly enough...
On edit: I just realized that my willingness to do drag has actually made me an enemy of the modern state, at least in many not-particularly-modern states. Oh well, yet more thoughtcrime goes onto my permanent record. Such is life.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
Did you file for worker's comp?
Lol!
I think plays get a pass on drag stuff that mere drag shows do not nowadays. "Some Like it Hot" played well, even in those states very resistant to joining today's world.
Hope those hip callouses went away!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
That would have been
"working girl's comp", thank you very much. And no, I didn't, even though I was getting paid scale (regional theater, not an equity show).
Besides, my girlfriend at the time (well before my current Dear One) thought that scars were sexy. Nothing like going home after a matinee and evening show with boning marks around your waist... There's more than a little BDSMLMNOP in the design of women's clothing, youbetcha.
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
A good gf will accept those
working-at-being-a-woman scars like a real champ! Gfs have their blood circulation compromised 24/7, love that a man gets a little taste of it.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Good morning otc. Thanks for the OT.
Quite a tale and I'm sure that you left out tons more. Women have made some progress, but not nearly enough, we're still not anywhere close to equal pay for equal work and there is still that problem with ownership of their own bodies being denied them. But hey, you've got your very own cigarette, so that's special. Every time sleepy joe or some other clown blathers about democracy somebody should ask why these pious bullshitters haven't passed the ERA yet.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Well, I am sure our government is too busy
to get ERA passed, just like codifying Roe v. Wade.
We must be satisfied we got to vote. Expecting the people we voted for to help us...well, we must be patient.
Hope you have something fun planned for the weekend. We are headed to a bar and restaurant near Beaumont that features good food, good drinks, and great live music. And last but not least, lots of gators.
Thanks for dropping in!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I'm replying very late but...
This was a great OT. Thanks!
A comment on bras. I wear them still and I love them, underwires and all. I finally, finally, figured out how to get them in the proper size about 20 years ago, and since then, love them. I've got huge boobs though, and a bra is necessary or I will knock myself out with a boob slap on the chin as soon as I take a step!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I have to wear them,
can't bear the ones with wires.
I would also have chin bruises if I trotted.
You and I have particularly strong backs. That's what it takes for us to stand upright!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Strong backs indeed!!!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so