A Clash of Titans - Marx vs Paine

Marx's Oversight of Thomas Paine's Moral Virtue and the Impossibility of a Stateless, Classless Society.

What Marx Overlooked

Karl Marx's vision of a stateless, classless society, as articulated in his works on communism, stands as a revolutionary blueprint for an idealized form of human organization. Marx’s theories advocate for the eventual dissolution of the state and the class structure, based on his critique of capitalism and his belief in historical materialism.

However, a critical examination of Thomas Paine’s arguments in "Common Sense" reveals a significant aspect that Marx overlooked: Paine's identification of a fundamental defect in moral virtue that necessitates the establishment of government in the first place.

This oversight reveals a potential flaw in Marx’s ideal of a stateless society, suggesting that such a society might be inherently unachievable due to the nature of human morality and social organization.

Thomas Paine’s Moral Virtue and the Need for Government

In "Common Sense," Thomas Paine argues that government arises out of the need to address inherent defects in human moral virtue.

Paine identifies a fundamental issue: human beings, while capable of reason and moral judgments, are also subject to passions and personal interests that can lead to conflict and injustice. Paine posits that government is a necessary institution to mediate these conflicts and to maintain social order. He argues that, without government, the failings of human nature would lead to anarchy and disorder.

Paine's perspective is rooted in the belief that human beings are not inherently virtuous and that moral failings are a part of human nature. Thus, government is not merely a product of historical contingencies or economic conditions but a structural necessity to manage the inherent flaws in human behavior and morality.

This view suggests that government functions as a mechanism to curb and channel human passions, providing a framework within which justice and social order can be maintained.

Marx’s Vision of a Stateless, Classless Society

Karl Marx, on the other hand, envisions a future where the state and class structures are abolished. According to Marx, the state is an instrument of class oppression that perpetuates inequality and exploitation under capitalism.

His theory proposes that with the establishment of a classless society, where the means of production are communally owned and controlled, the state will become obsolete.

Marx argues that the end of class struggle will lead to the dissolution of the state, resulting in a harmonious, stateless society where individuals freely cooperate and contribute according to their abilities and needs.

Marx’s ideal society is predicated on the assumption that once class antagonisms are resolved, human relationships will transform, eliminating the need for coercive institutions like the state.

This vision presupposes a fundamental change in human nature or at least a significant transformation in social relations that would render traditional forms of governance unnecessary.

The Clash Between Paine’s and Marx’s Theories

The key point of contention between Paine and Marx lies in their assumptions about human nature and the role of government.

Paine’s identification of a moral defect in human nature suggests that government is an essential institution to manage the inherent imperfections of human behavior.

In contrast, Marx’s theory of a stateless society assumes that eliminating class conflict will resolve the need for governmental structures.

Paine’s argument implies that government is a response to a perennial aspect of human nature—namely, the tendency toward moral failings and the resulting conflicts.

Marx’s vision, however, assumes that societal transformation will result in the eradication of these conflicts.

If Paine’s view is correct, then Marx’s ideal of a stateless society might be fundamentally flawed.

The persistence of human moral imperfections could mean that some form of governance or institutional structure will always be necessary to manage and mediate conflicts.

Moreover, Marx’s theory might underestimate the complexity of human social interactions and the role of institutions in maintaining social cohesion.

Even in a classless society, issues of moral virtue, social order, and conflict resolution would likely persist, necessitating some form of organized structure, whether or not it resembles traditional state forms.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Karl Marx’s vision of a stateless, classless society overlooks the crucial insight provided by Thomas Paine regarding the defect in moral virtue that necessitates government. Paine’s argument highlights a fundamental aspect of human nature that Marx’s theory does not fully address.

While Marx’s critique of capitalism and his vision of a classless society offer valuable insights into the potential for human liberation, the assumption that such a society can exist without some form of governance may be overly optimistic.

The inherent flaws in human nature, as identified by Paine, suggest that some level of institutional structure might always be necessary to manage conflicts and maintain social order, challenging the feasibility of Marx’s idealized vision of a completely stateless society.

(Cross posted from my substack, clintonalden.substack.com)

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QMS's picture

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Thank you for sharing it here Clint. I have no problem with the contrasts between
Marx and Paine ideologies as promoted. One issue mucking up the conclusions
is governments are populated by people with these 'inherent flaws'. Laws written
to protect the people from government overreach are written by these same flawed
individuals and enforced by other flawed individuals. So government is not
necessarily a moral monolith in and of itself. Corruption and special interest exists
at all levels of authority.

I do not have an all encompassing solution to this dilemma. Living a moral and just
existence is good, but what is selectively defined as crime in the US makes almost
every common man suspect.

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truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

Cassiodorus's picture

The ideal of a stateless, classless society -- as it stood under various incarnations of capitalist rule -- is borrowed from actual human societies existing before states and classes were a thing as well as from those societies operating at such a low level of technology that neither states nor classes formed. Thus you have the Marx/ Engels notion of "primitive communism."

Marx was an examples of Victorian (mid-19th-century) hubris, Paine an example of the 18th century British Enlightenment. Both of those authors wrote as participants in specific societies.

Therefore, you might have narrowed your argument quite a bit and specified the society or type of society in which states and classes might or might not exist. You might have also discussed which social classes you're interested in. It isn't just owners and workers: may I recommend a review of the literature around James Burnham's The Managerial Revolution or Milovan Djilas' The New Class?

Classes as we know them today are a product of a specific society -- Roman society. The Marx notion of the "proletariat" is borrowed from the Latin word proletarii, meaning landless workers. So what were social classes in ancient Rome? You may want to know.

States are also a product of a specific society: please look at Kees van der Pijl's history of foreign relations in Nomads, Empires, States.

Since both classes and states are products of specific societies existing in historical time, to say that "a stateless, classless society is impossible" is basically to say "gee, I couldn't possibly imagine how we could do without states or social classes." The problem, then, is with our ability to imagine how it would work. Well, that's just silly. Perhaps we could have a stateless, classless society if we tried harder. Morality has no necessary connection to the existence of states or classes, so it doesn't have to be a problem.

As regards your thesis, you might also try for less of a sweeping generalization, and so, for instance, you have Craig Calhoun, who argues in his book The Question of Class Struggle that people were not likely to create a stateless, classless society in that past era in which Marx was a big thing because doing so was too much of a bother and because all they really wanted was social democracy.

I can see that you've got your reading in front of you. Good luck!

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"If genocide is not a deal-breaker for you, there is something wrong with you." - Nick Cruse

Clinton Alden's picture

@Cassiodorus You sound like a Democrat "Perhaps we could have a stateless, classless society if we tried harder." (Apologies)

But you sound like a typical socalist too, "you didn't read the book, bro." Lol.

First and foremost, I do not disagree with Marx's analysis and criticisms of Capitalism. However, his "idea" of a future state of humanity, as a stateless and classless society, is just that, an idea. And that's just the truth, is it not?

Yet, I have to acknowledge that some people are just down right evil. No virtues, nor morals. (There is a distinction between morals & virtues)

That defect, if you will, as Paine pointed out, is what gives rise to the need of some form of government in the first place.

I would also argure, it is that same defect that gave rise to class distinctions (I'm better than you, I'm the tribal chief) and controlling the means of production, from some individual's desire of wanting more than their fair share, combined with the threat/use of force to get it.

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Formerly, RantingRooster

Cassiodorus's picture

@Clinton Alden

You sound like a Democrat "Perhaps we could have a stateless, classless society if we tried harder."

Except Democrats don't sound like this. Democrats are all about Trump Derangement Syndrome now. I sound like a writing instructor.

First and foremost, I do not disagree with Marx's analysis and criticisms of Capitalism. However, his "idea" of a future state of humanity, as a stateless and classless society, is just that, an idea. And that's just the truth, is it not?

We might benefit from being motivated to adorn Marx's thought, borrowed as it was from Christian communism, with some semblance of present-day reality. Currently the states are about to escalate to nuclear war Meanwhile, the apex of our social classes, the (Zionist) billionaires who sit on the boards of trustees of our universities, promise to make them into police states in the coming term. So, yes, we would benefit from thinking of states and social classes as something other than as eternal entities. What would you rather do?

That defect, if you will, as Paine pointed out, is what gives rise to the need of some form of government in the first place.

Government comes out of foreign relations, out of the various groups having to decide what to do about "people who are not part of our group." Otherwise daily affairs would be about relations between the social classes. That's why I recommended the van der Pijl book.

Did you think that government came out of the "problem of evil"? Are people born evil? I suppose we could watch them as they popped out of their mommies' wombs: "Yep, this one came out twirling his mustache and laughing like Vincent Price. Must be evil."

I would also argure, it is that same defect that gave rise to class distinctions

Ultimately class distinctions, in the Roman sense I mentioned, come out of family distinctions. The elites were like a class of paterfamilias, daddies at the heads of their households. Only in this case the household was the entire country. The slaves on the bottom of the hierarchy were descended from members of conquered tribes, and if and when they became freedmen, they started out at the bottom of the hierarchy.

Do you reject this thinking? And, if so, then why?

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"If genocide is not a deal-breaker for you, there is something wrong with you." - Nick Cruse

today, just before I read your piece, I received an email saying Rabbi Michael Lerner, a wonderful advocate of peace on earth, had died this week, and that before his death he had left a hopeful article, which I read, describing a world of love, sharing, and equity that could emerge from the current catastrophe.

When I read your essay then, I was open to the possibility of good government, or no need for government, or government instituted among men in order to secure the rights we're born with, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

But then, it's almost impossible to have that kind of hope when yesterday I read that our government has put us on notice that they may decide to end all life on earth because Putin hasn't decided to give our government the keys to his country. How does a person like Jake Sullivan get that way?

I get it that we've created a military industrial system that promotes people who have no humanity, and that the moral imbeciles who decide to escalate war to the point of no return have no concern about what they are doing, other than increasing their monetary gain and securing power. But how did we lose control of these people? How did it go from the so-called government of the people supposedly securing our rights, to a government telling us they may decide to end all life on earth? And we just sit there. And Congress, like 535 deer in the headlights, does nothing. Just stands there and lets this war machine run over them.

Anyway, I'm an old fuddy-duddy who is pro-labor and who believes the conflicts in Ukraine and elsewhere are about who owns the means of production, and I believe there has been progress in parts of the world where natural resources are nationalized, for the benefit of the people, and where workers own companies, as in parts of Italy, and where peace and prosperity have become a thing. But we have to pull the plug on the war machine. It's like having a pet cobra who is sick with rabies.

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QMS's picture

@Linda Wood
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It's like having a pet cobra who is sick with rabies.

as a show and tell in a kindergarten classroom ..

thanks for your work supporting the workers!

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truth is considered foreign influence, world peace is a threat to national security

We tend to focus upon the historical class conflicts of the West, but forget class division also got entrenched in Central and South America as well. Somehow, all of the structure and movement and great divides between rich, powerful, and poor, powerless, follow the same playbook, and there was no coordination between those hemispheres.
Humans just aren't particularly generous, and they tend to gravitate toward power over the lesser.
The last time a leader could be picked to help everyone was the hunter/gatherer period.
I will check out your substack!
Glad you have reliable internet connection in your neck of the woods!

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981