Alarms about Russian meddling that hasn't happened

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Democratic politicians and other grifters have looked into the future (by means of a technology yet unrevealed) and discovered that Trump isn't protecting our democracy.

Intelligence warnings are growing that Russia will probably meddle in the 2020 elections, but Donald Trump and a powerful Senate ally are downplaying these concerns and not doing enough to thwart interfering, say Russia and cyber experts and key congressional Democrats.

Despite fears that Moscow may seek to influence the 2020 elections by launching cyber attacks, social media disinformation, covert agent operations and other “active measures” as it did in the 2016 election, adequate funding and White House focus to counter any new Russian meddling are lagging, experts and officials say.
...“Russia would be remiss not to try again, given how successful they were in 2016,” said Steven Hall, a retired chief of the CIA’s Russian operations.

"Intelligence warnings are growing", not Intelligence evidence is growing.
"that Russia will probably meddle". That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.

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Russia, just like a James Bond villain, is active elsewhere too, including Europe.
Once again, there is all sorts of evidence to back up these claims.

There were worries that the bloc's May 23-26 vote for the EU parliament would be a ripe target for foreign meddling, given Russian interference in the 2016 ballot that brought U.S. President Donald Trump to power and allegations of disinformation — plus a lack of solid facts — surrounding Britain's Brexit referendum that same year.
So far, no spike has appeared on the 28-nation bloc's disinformation radars and tech companies say they haven't found signs of a coordinated operation by foreign actors. There is, though, a constant buzz of false information that mainly seeks to erode the EU's image and that has ground on since the last Europe-wide elections in 2014.

So essentially Russia is "meddling" (whatever the Hell that is), but there isn't any actual evidence of it. Not that evidence is required.
Yet even without Russia doing anything, the voters turned against the globalists.

Germany's governing parties were dealt their worst results for 70 years, with Chancellor Angela Merkel's centre-right Union bloc taking just 28.9 percent of the vote (down from 35.4 percent five years ago) and their Social Democrat allies receiving just 15.8 percent (down from 27.3 pecent in 2014).

In France, President Emmanuel Macron has faced calls to dissolve parliament after the far right stormed to victory in the European Parliament elections. The results did not trigger "a national crisis", a government spokesperson told BFM TV, and Prime Minister Edouard Philippe "has all the confidence of the president".

Macron's Republic on the Move party is a defining voice among pro-business liberals, but received just 5.1 million votes, compared with 5.3 million for Marine Le Pen's National Rally.

The good news is that the biggest surprise gains weren't by the right-wing, but by the Greens.

It was, however, a good night for Europe's Green movement. France's Greens will have 13 seats after placing a surprisingly strong third, followed by eight seats for the conservative Republicans and six seats each for the far-left Defiant France and the Socialist group.

In Germany, the Greens took second place with 20.5 percent, whereas its far-right AfD movement only managed a fourth-place showing with 11 percent of the vote. Provisional results across the continent show the Greens coming in as the fourth-largest bloc with 70 seats, an increase of 18 from European elections five years ago.

The "Green wave" continued in Britain, where the Green party outperformed the governing Conservative party, pushing the crisis-hit Tories into fifth place.

Greens also had strong showings in Finland, France, and Ireland on higher-than-usual voter turnout.

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how many comments will be about the singing contest.
I did that intentionally.

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Azazello's picture

That's how G.W. Bush explained the 9/11 bombing.
I didn't quite get it then and I don't quite get it now.
We're told that arch-villian Putin wants to destroy our Democracy.
Why ? Why does he care whether or not we have a Democracy ?

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We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

@Azazello
Like, for example, they hate gay people for their freedom. So they understand hating people for their freedom. Or something. Okay, I admit it, I'm only pretending that it ever made any sense at all. I was just bitching about it in a PM to someone else, then came here and saw your comment.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@Azazello

democracy." The right to vote for representatives who don't represent anyone but the uber wealthy and big business is plutocracy posing as a republic, if not fascism. Well, whatever it is, Putin meddled with it and hacked it. So there.

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edg's picture

But it was right in the first quote. I'm shocked, shocked that you missed it:

given Russian interference in the 2016 ballot that brought U.S. President Donald Trump to power

It's a given. What more evidence do you Putin-lovers need?!?!

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Shahryar's picture

@edg

this whole thing reminds me of the "probably" argument.

it's a little off topic but I was reading about the rise in autism in the last 20-30 years and I found out, from scientists (!) that it's not that there's more of it, it's that probably they can spot more of it now due to better health care facilities.

Yes, the word "probably" was used. No need to really investigate it.

"the difference probably reflects varying levels of autism awareness and of services offered"

and, on why the rate changed from 1 in 2,500 to 1 in 50:

"In 1966, researchers estimated that about 1 in 2,500 children had autism, according to criteria derived from Kanner’s description. This and other early estimates of prevalence probably focused on children at the severe end of the spectrum and missed those with subtler features."

Probably.

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@Shahryar
they haven't investigated and/or aren't investigating. in fact, i know for certain that some studies have been done on the extent to which awareness and new diagnostics account for the higher diagnosis rates. there's absolutely no doubt at all that some of the difference reflect nothing but a changing diagnosis culture. lots of people are being diagnosed as autistic today who simply wouldn't have been in 1966 -- back then, it was an extreme diagnosis for an extreme condition. now, with the latest classification system, in which all asperger diagnoses are rolled into the autism diagnosis, well ... think back to when you were in high school. what fraction of the student body would you estimate exhibited a significant asperger profile? certainly in my school it was 1 - 2 %. back then, we just called them "geeks". and no, i don't mean anybody who played D&D -- i'm talking about the guys that were called geeks by the guys who played D&D.

generally, a scientist who doesn't qualify most his statements with "probably" is lying to himself and to you.

none of which has anything to do with the inane russophobia we're being fed.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd not really plausible that so much is due to refined diagnosis and definition.

And in science, 'probably' is a synonym for 'don't really know,' while saving the appearance of 'expert.'

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

@jim p

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd It's different than "best guess" or "Optimus coniecto."

As to the idea that in earlier times 49 of 50 autism sufferers where simply classed as something else or simply not noticed and that accounts for the difference... Absurd.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

@jim p
i'm too burned out to give a lesson on scientific epistemology, beyond the observation that 99%+ (arbitrary made-up statistic for rhetorical purposes) of all conclusions published in scientific journals are expressed in terms of the probability that they represent truth, rather than random experimental variation.

i also looked up and read the 1966 paper from which the 4/10000 fraction is drawn -- i know how to do these things, you see, because these things are the things that i do -- and i am happy to reassure you that there is no great difficulty presented by the two-orders-of-magnitude differential between those numbers and our current numbers. which is not to say that the true incidence of autism-spectrum behavior hasn't increased. it quite likely has, for at least two or three reasons -- but not by a hundred-fold, or even ten-fold. i wouldn't be surprised if it had doubled, though there is no way we'll ever know.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@jim p you have no reason-based refutation, still. The line between knowledge and opinion (however well informed) is Certainty. Waving certificates and wearing humble white robes does not erase that line.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

@jim p @jim p @jim p
do not know what you're talking about. that isn't a gratuitous insult, it's an inference of a fact drawn by me from the evidence of your statements. but of course, it's only probably true. maybe you really do know what you're talking about, and your responses to me are just some elaborate goof, a la Andy Kaufman.

refute? refute what? you're the one who has made bold assertions, devoid of rhetorical support; given which, perhaps the burden is upon you to justify your certainty. Look at this strange remark:

The line between knowledge and opinion (however well informed) is Certainty

What a thing to say. It is wholly divorced from the reality of scientific inquiry. The line between knowledge and opinion is evidence; and in the scientific endeavor, the line between Doubt and Certainty is wisdom -- with Certainty falling upon the less virtuous side of that demarcation. With respect to science, Certainty is the generally the domain of the Young Earth Creationists, Climate Change Denialists, and Flat Earthers: Their certainty is what fixes their minds immutable in defiance of torrents of contrary evidence. (Scientists do make use of a rather gauzy sort of Certainty: It is functional and pragmatic, merely a mindset that allows them to proceed with their experiments undaunted by the actual doubt that stalks the endeavor from the shadows.)
"no reason based refutation"? I pointed out the obvious, which is that a scientific conclusion is drawn, not from certainty, but from an accumulation of evidence that renders doubt increasingly, but never entirely, untenable; [EDIT: to fix a "sign" error] and renders the conclusion ever more statistically improbable. The remaining improbability is almost invariably expressed explicitly in the scientific paper reporting the results. There's your damned "reason based refutation," right in front of your eyes. If you have any actual argument to offer then feel free to do so, but spare me the empty pseudo-philosophy.

Mind you, we are considering here certainty in the context of science. Consider, alternatively, the "sig" that, at the time of this writing, follows each of my comments: It is a series of three assertions (by me) of facts, facts I have labeled "indisputable". My certainty there is not a matter of scientific inquiry, of repeated experiments, each a collection of measurements subject to all manner of variability that creates around them a cloud of UNcertainty. But even my three certainties are, my labeling notwithstanding, doubted by others. Yes, to entertain such doubts requires a rather astonishing cognitive need for the truth to be other than what it is; nonetheless, there is doubt. Indeed, it's almost incorrect to call them "doubts" -- those who would gainsay my assertions tend to be rather certain that I am wrong. I think they are ... funny. And wrong. Who is to say, which of us suffers from delusional hubris?

Oh, but how weary I am, weary, weary, weary, of being asked to defend arguments I have never made, of being ordered to refute arguments others have never made, of having a straightforward argument rejected by those who decline to read, properly read, what is written, but having cursorily "decoded" the text, as those who study the phenomenon of reading would label its most elementary process, close their eyes, put their fingers in their ears, and refuse to acknowledge that they have been told. Well, sir, I say that you have been told, a claim whose truth value can never be finally adjudicated, but is nonetheless independent of any acknowledgment from you. You're free to presume as you like, but your certain presumption of yourself as qualified to lecture me on the epistemology of science -- or for that matter, any epistemology at all -- is not something you've rooted in careful analysis of the available evidence; it's just something you've claimed for yourself by virtue of "dibs".

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@UntimelyRippd for your superlatively well thought out words. No, that’s not sarcasm, I mean it.

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@tle
for better or for worse, but for precious little profit, it is what i do.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@jim p
makes serious research about the root cause of the increase unnecessary because in a manner of speaking it's just our imagination.

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@entrepreneur
true that almost all of the difference between the 1/2500 number reported in 1966 and the 1/50 reported today is due to changes in the classification criteria.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Sima's picture

@UntimelyRippd I am very late to this but just wanted to say, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I have personal experience in this. My sister, born in 1965, is severely autistic - non-verbal, non-functioning, needs lifetime care, autistic. She's wonderful, lovely, and autistic. When she was very young in order to get help for her in school, the authorities classified her as retarded. This is because there was no funding for autistic education or help, only for retarded. That classification changed as the funding became available, mostly due to very hard work by people like my parents. Then we got the movies about autistic people, and learned about 'idiot savants' and so on and autism became, I dunno, popular. It's recognized, the spectrum is recognized, and many are diagnosed as on that spectrum.

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If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

@Sima
the original commenter seems to think aren't actually happening, that rising diagnosis rates include factors such as you observe: The emergence of funding for autism therapy and education accommodation has made autism a more "acceptable" diagnosis to parents and practitioners. Also important is just that the diagnosis is less stigmatized than back in the day when the fraud Bettelheim accused "refrigerator mothers" of being responsible for autistic onsets.

Interestingly, though, the 1966 UK study that is the source of the 1/2500 figure probably would have counted your sister. It was based, not on diagnosis rates, but on a comprehensive survey of all the 8-10 year-olds in one UK county. It applied a very stringent screen: Of the 35 children identified as autistic, 30 had IQs below 80 (lowest 30%), but most had IQs much lower than that (lowest 1%).

The 1/50 numbers being bandied about are also estimates of prevalence in the US population, not actual diagnosis rates, and they are for Autism Spectrum Disorder, which includes two broad and diagnoses (Asperger Syndrome and Pervasive Development Disorders) that are much more common than autism itself (even with the more relaxed diagnostic criteria versus 50 years ago). These by themselves account for at least 80 or 90% of actual diagnoses. BTW, 2013's DSM-5 actually tightened the criteria somewhat. Anyway, prior to that, diagnosis rates had probably risen by 40 or 50% over the previous 10 years. Significantly, rates amongst blacks and latinx children increased relative to whites -- though they still lagged well behind. It's not hard to intuit what's going on there, but what it isn't is an actual rise in the occurrence of ASD amongst those populations.

There are known phenomena that may be boosting actual ASD rates, including our success at keeping preemie babies alive -- preemie birth being correlated with higher rates of ASD. And there could be important dietary factors -- there are some wacky results coming from researchers looking at the gut microbiome. My main takeaway would be this:

A. Prevalence rates of ASD in the US may be overstated, possibly by a factor of 2, at least with respect to the diagnostic criteria. Rates almost certainly are at least 1/100 though.
B. Most of the difference between the rates estimated today versus those in the 60s and early 70s are due to changes in the definition itself, which rolled far more common diagnoses than classic autism into the umbrella of ASD.
C. Rises in diagnostic rates of different forms of ASD, including classic autism as well as Asperger's etc., are due primarily to heightened awareness by both parents and practitioners, as well as heightened acceptability of the diagnosis.
D. Nonetheless, ASD likely is increasing somewhat within the US, for several reasons, none of which are well understood.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

@edg
In a $3 Billion election Putin spent $100k in Facebook ads to install Trump as president.
It's perfectly logical.

In unrelated news:

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Shahryar's picture

@gjohnsit

maybe they spent 0. Whatever, to accept $100k is to accept that the Russians are that many times smarter than US political consultants.

One obvious solution is to find those "Russians" and hire them to run the 2020 campaign. That, however, would bring up the curious problem that there aren't any of those geniuses.

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@Shahryar
that multibillion dollar cash injection?

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

SnappleBC's picture

@gjohnsit

The moment I heard that 5k on twitter was enough to do the job I thought, "That seems doable."

Honestly, even 155k seems pretty doable. Sell my house. Become President. Move into the Whitehouse. Get wealthy on the payroll of the oligarchs.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@gjohnsit a lot of those Russian ad views were about problems with too much masterbation. Just seeing that ad once would discredit democracy, neh?
Seriously, if you told me Putin engineered Trump and Clinton as the major candidates, then the undermining of democracy would at least make some sense. The two most despised and distrusted people in public life -- how's that happen Ina democracy?

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

edg's picture

@jim p

If I weren't an atheist, I'd have thought God was punishing us in 2016 by sticking us with the 2 worst candidates since Pharaoh and Pontius Pilate.

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@gjohnsit Voter database change which effected 110,000 voters. Democrat party officials changed the voter party affiliation of newly registered democrats who were going for Bernie in large numbers. Not a Russian in site. Even in the conspiratorial world of the TOPs, I have never read people claiming that the Russians "interference" affected so many people in such an illicit method. The main argument of the conspirators is that micro-targeted legal zombie inducing Tweets and FB ads caused people to vote for Trump.

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snoopydawg's picture

Isn't it funny though how Russia was supposed to be interfering in the 2018 midterms and yet the closer we got to it the less people were talking about it?

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Obama told the country that during his WH press conference just before the election because Trump was saying that he wouldn't accept the results of he lost. This was one of the reasons why Russia Gate was made up. If he went through with that then Obama would've hit him with the evidence of Russia trying to help him. But no one remembers him saying that now nor does the media remind people that he did. I wonder what Rachel would do if I sent her a copy of the video? Heh..

"that Russia will probably meddle". That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee.

But that is pretty much what Brennan, Coates and Clapper said in the 1/6/2017 intelligence briefing that people misquote and say that all 17 intelligence agencies agree that Russia interfered with the election. It was those 3 people.

Edg...

given Russian interference in the 2016 ballot that brought U.S. President Donald Trump to power

This. After Mueller released his report and left in the intelligence briefing people accept that Russia did indeed do the deed.

gjohnsit...

LEAKED INFO from California Democratic clubs shows that establishment Dems are using their data to unregister voters who recently switched to democrat to vote for Sanders in 2016. This is how they rig it. Independents are voting for Tulsi or Bernie. Check your registration now.

Funny how no one talks about how people being kicked out of the DP voting rolls and had their party affiliation changed. Or that the republicans have gerrymandered the hell out of the country and is making it as difficult as possible for people to vote.

Shar...

and how do we know 100k is right?

Bingo. How do they know that the Russian Internet agency spent that amount of money? When this farce first started Facebook said that they saw no evidence of election interference, but then Obama had a talk with Zuck and told him how important the issue was and to look again and lo and behold he did find something. But if he can be trusted most of the ads were placed after the election was over.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

believes there's a Russian electoral hack in the offing is that there has been no major push to get rid of provenly hackable machines and instead have paper ballots. Ballots counted one by one in front of dozens of witnesses, and if you want to go whole hog, each ballot shown on YouTube, if you want complete integrity.

Most of the officials promoting Russiagate know they are lying.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

SnappleBC's picture

@jim p

Given that we know how incredibly vulnerable our election system is... so vulnerable that I often think it must be vulnerable by design... then why has nobody done a few obvious things to tighten it up. If I believed our elections were under severe and long-term attack I'd have been taking steps to harden them. Instead, TPTB try to shut down WSWS.

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A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard

@SnappleBC Having worked elections back in day, I don't see how an malevolent foreign actor can come in from the outside to change election results. However, the system is deliberately made vulnerable to people inside the election systems. Witness democrats messing with voter databases in NY and gop probably everywhere (the use of caging, duplicate entries, voter ID requirements, etc.). A revealing question to ask in this regard is: "in current and past elections, who has cheated African Americans out of their vote-- Russians or other Americans?"

Georgia’s strict laws lead to large purge of voters

By dawn, more than 500,000 people were registered no more.
...
This purge, according to election-law experts, may represent the largest mass disenfranchisement in U.S. history.
...
These efforts went relatively unnoticed before this year’s campaign for governor.

What was somewhat disappointing was that Stacey Abrams has now fully gone Russiagate.

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We've got freakin' Fox news and a comatose establishment news media. To para quote Clinton "What difference does it make?". It's like arguing what's healthier? Coke or Pepsi? It's not like we have a pristine informative source of facts.

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that there is a

constant buzz of false information that mainly seeks to erode the EU's image and that has ground on since the last Europe-wide elections in 2014.

This is the "tell," as far as I can see. Any, meaning, ANY, information that erodes the EU's image, ANY information that disagrees with the premise that the EU is unassailable, must be coming from an enemy of civilization, and therefore it must be Russia because Russia doesn't want the EU to take over Russia. It's a simple equivalence. If you don't like the spiraling debt and the forced austerity, you're not voicing a legitimate criticism, you're Russia.

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So the deep state actors crafting the Russiagate narrative have evolved the conspiracy from Russia hacked the voting machines, altered voter choices, colluded with Trump, to finally deliberately causing strife and division. The narrative has gone from physically attacking the system, to now a totally psychological attack by creating strife and division of the liberal democracies.

The problem is that strife and division are inherent traits of democracies. I read a claim that even as the Athenians were abandoning the city to the Persians, they were bickering and fighting with each other. What vision of a democratic society do these people see where division and strife do not exist? Or maybe in one which its citizens engage in disagreement with the appropriate amounts of strife and division? Civility as preached by some is just censorship.

Who gets to decide on the appropriate levels of protest and dissent? In effect these people want a society of uniformity or heavy censorship to prevent division. I would like for these people to tell the BLM the appropriate levels of dissent so that Russians can't spread strife. If a people cannot handle strife and division, then they do not deserve democracy.

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@MrWebster
is obviously a Russian agent.

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