If Markos is a typical supporter, then the Democratic Party is f---ed
Part of his latest whine [I'm not going to link]
The system is rigged—the first states were lily white, giving Sanders an early boost. He’s gotten 46 percent of the delegates while garnering only 43 percent of the popular vote. He’s benefited from low-turnout, undemocratic caucuses when subsequent higher-participation primaries delivered strikingly different results in Washington and Nebraska. And now, even with all those structural advantages, he still wants the supers to steal the election for him.
God, the half truths are staggering and if you replaced "lily white" with another race the objections would have broken the bloody site.
Note:
Indeed there was a Lily white movement [1870-1920s] in the South within the Republican Party that was largely accredited to driving out the African Americans from their party, don't forget this was also the Dixiecrats in the 1940s. So saying Lilly white implies that those voting are racists, funny that in party with an all white primary. Am I the only one that remembers the Clintons more than borderline racism the last time around the block when contesting President Obama
Back in March of 2007, Hillary Clinton’s chief strategist Mark Penn wrote a campaign memo that proposed painting Barack Obama as un-American or “other”:
“His roots to basic American values and culture are at best limited. I cannot imagine America electing a president during a time of war who is not at his center fundamentally American in his thinking and in his values ... Every speech should contain the line you were born in the middle of America to the middle class in the middle of the last century ... Let’s explicitly own ‘American’ in our programs, the speeches and the values. He doesn’t.“
Last time around the block he viciously attacked Hillary Clinton without remorse, now he is doing the same with Bernie Sanders, the credibility gap is growing to the point where anything he writes can be considered as bullshit.
The reason that this primary is and was rigged right from the get go is bloody simple
The DNC immediately took sides with one candidate alone and did everything in their power to prevent a free and open election, notwithstanding their already in place electoral system.
They deliberately failed to give all the candidates equal opportunities to make their case, we were bombarded with inevitability.
The calls that the election is over started even before it started and continue even though nobody has officially won.
Even partisans must concede that this type of rhetoric is designed to distort the results.
So don't give all this whinging about undemocratic tendencies when the whole primary system is anything but democratic.
You should be fighting that democratic principles are being upheld no matter who you support rather than just writing them off as a byline. He should also refrain from using such derogatory racial slurs.
Oh and by the way the criticism of Hillary Clinton is the very much the same as Markos used last time around the block with some added criticism from her term as SoS; which many around the world have regretted, had their lives ruined and even died from.
PS
Standing up for principles is a sign of a growing Party, sticking your head in the sand is a sure sign of a flailing one.
Comments
I'm not an expert but Hitler was helped by Versailles
that's what I hear, anyway. Lots of Germans felt it was bad enough to lose WWI and then being humiliated by the treaty made them easy converts for someone who was going to restore their honor.
As for the Italians....dunno.
they
lost a war. That hurt their fee-fees. So they made up some shit about how they "would have won," except they were "stabbed in the back"—by bankers, bureaucrats, black-marketeers, people who just wanted to get naked; all of whom, they decided, were mostly Jews—and they whined they were dying beneath the crushing burden of reparations, when in truth they barely paid a dime. And yeah. They thought they needed to retrieve "honor." (A great explication of the stone-craziness of "honor" is the film The Duellists.)
The Italians, they were going to go through some sort of time warp, and re-emerge as the Roman Empire.
There was a lot of madness about, there on the planet, there at that time.
World needs more empathy for everyone in all times and places
More empathy, more compassion, more forgiveness, more reconciliation.
Well, except with Germans, apparently.
Every attempt to express any empathy for post World War I Germans’ situation always ends the same way, with airing of the Holocaust B-roll.
nobody
lacks empathy for inter-war Germans. But they shouldn't be permitted to get away with shit just made up. Like how they "would have won" WWI, except they were "stabbed in the back." Any more than the Americans should be allowed to get away with the same in re Vietnam. Or that they were "crushed" by reparations that they in fact didn't pay. Or that Jews were "poisoning" German culture, and therefore needed to be Stopped.
uh-uh
I don't have to actually go out and talk to them. I AM THEM. You are not in my head. Obama received the votes of a higher portion of working class white voters than any white Democratic presidential candidate between Clinton and Obama. There are white working class people who put their hopes in Obama and are now voting for Trump. The second choice of a large number of George Wallace voters in 1968 was Robert Kennedy.
If you'd care to learn something about the multiple realities inside all of us and how they are triggered and can be manipulated, you might take a look at The Political Brain by Drew Westen.
If I wanted to read myself described as all about anger, born of fear, that my whiteness is no longer uber alles I'd have stayed at Daily Kos.
regardless
of where you read, whiteness is no longer uber alles. That's just a fact. The people of The Hairball, they can't handle that fact. Which is why they are people of The Hairball. "A substantial minority of Americans hold authoritarian, intolerant ideologies driven by fear, hate and prejudice that are fundamentally incompatible with Democratic (and democratic) principles." Just like Westen says.
Pay attention.
I never claimed whiteness was uber alles. I believe the idea is disgusting. I object strenuously to your claiming that I believe whiteness is uber alles.
So a white working class voter who voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012; saw his life continue to get worse; and is now supporting Trump believes whiteness is uber alles?
Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, and Malcolm X near the end of his life came to realize that true change had to come from a coalition of PoC and the white working class.
Anyone who balkanizes people into islands of identity and sets them against each other is part of the problem. It doesn't matter whether the perpetrator makes the plea for fragmentation from the right or the left.
the
Hairball is a racist. He is out and proud about being a racist. Like no one in national politics since George Wallace. He is the quintessential establishment candidate of the post-1964 Republican Party, in that, to his core, and out and proud, he represents the two poles of that party: (1) great wealth; and (2) great hate.
Because of the vomit that continuously flows out of his mouth, no one can vote for him without either being a racist, or immorally overlooking racism.
Do you understand that there are more working-class people of color, than white working-class people?
I am white working-class myself. I have worked as a dishwasher, a telemarketer, a forklift-driver, a wallbanger.
No one in the entire history of my family has ever completed college.
But people like me, we will never fit into your "coalition of PoC and the white working class," until we absolutely unmoor ourselves from any and all expressions of whiteness uber alles.
And The Hairball, he is whiteness uber alles. With bells on. Five-star. Glowing in the dark.
The ultimate balkanizer, setting people against one another, that is The Hairball. Whose campaign is anchored solely, and only, in white identity politics.
Not accurate
The assumption that all Trump voters are racists is false Clinton messaging, reinforced by the corporate media. There are lots of Obama voters backing him. There are lots of people of color backing him -- some of those people are racist (you don't have to be white to be a racist), but lots are not. Many people in this country never got a chance to even hear Bernie existed, so they backed the only change agent available to them.
Trump's clearly a racist. Some of his supporters are racists. Some of Hillary's supporters are racists. Heck, the most recent research indicates some of Bernie's supporters are racists. It's a toxic belief created and promulgated by the economic elite to maintain their power. It's a big problem in our society. Go ahead and call it out whenever and whereever you find it. But it's ALSO true that stigmatizing all Trump supporters as racist based on corporate media reporting is both inaccurate and unuseful. If you actually care about progressive reform in America -- and I assume you do, unless i completely misunderstand the mission of this site -- it would be more just, more kind, and more effective to recognize that people who have been victimized and are blaming their fellow victims are, you know, ALSO victims, and we need to create a class-based coalition that will include people you apparently deem beneath you. Not all Trump voters are racist. Not all people who express racist sentiments are irredeemable. The neoliberal scam includes as a foundational part of the grift the idea that blaming the voters is valid and useful. But it isn't and it isn't. Bernie is outpolling Clinton and Trump in GEORGIA. What does that tell you? Lots of people you are prepared to discard deserve better from this country, and from you.
Much of what you assert here is disproved by both anecdote and data. If you believe that the only way we'd end up with a pseudo-strongman outsider charismatic is racism by whites, who are dying out, you are sadly mistaken. Many of Trump's voters are potential allies in a better progressive future. And the toxic weapon of tribal otherness, whether defined as skin color, or religion, or anything else, isn't going away, and it isn't defeated by hatred and scorn; it's defeated by respect, understanding and mutual self-interest. Please don't fall into the trap the Clintons and their ilk have laid for you.
completely accurate
The Hairball is a racist. Those who vote for him are racists, or are immorally willing to overlook racism. Sanders calls him a racist. His entire campaign is anchored in racism, and those of whiteness uber alles have thus flowed to him, to grasp at his pants-cuffs. That this is but "false Clinton messaging," or "corporate media reporting," is complete balderdash. The man who has followed him longest, and best, Wayne Barrett, whose reporting in the Village Voice on this creature I was reading more than 30 years ago, says:
Just forget it.
I would get banned for telling you what I think of you. But you're omniscient, so you already know. Isn't that great!
kool!
"I would get banned for telling you what I think of you."
Spoken like a true Hairballian. Maybe next you'll want, as Hairballians are always wont to do, to take a swing at me.
Hairball uber alles! White light! White heat! We will march on a road of bones!
Not cool
Read the exchange. You're the only one bringing up violence. Project much?
They are all feeding
from the same trough.
What puzzles me is that the Democratic party needs a win. They have lost the House and the Senate with little hope of regaining either, so the White House is all they got a chance for. And they continue to push the most unpopular, corrupt, and otherwise flawed candidate in recent history. They have a choice and they refuse to make it because it will hurt their own income streams. So they push her upon the people.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
But not as bad as...um...um...wait I have got something
....wait...dammit
But Hill is Their Motherlode
Hill & Bill started the long downward trajectory of the Dem party with their Third Way - Chicago economics school austerity, corporate tax-cutting, free-trade, states' rights block grants, government-corporate partnerships, anti-public/pro-privatizing, anti-regulation crap.
Obama is one of them - as evidenced by his support of the Catfood commission, pro-charter schools (Arne Duncan), tepid recovery for Main Street, hands across the aisle in Congress, deportations of political refugees, pro-Wall Street, capitulating to Repugs, failure to prosecute banksters, and installations of the entire Clinton slate of economic advisors into his administration.
Obama is the leader of the Dem party. He installed Debbie W. Schultz and continues to support her. He got Hill's support in 2008 in exchange for giving her the SOS job. He's all in for Hill; he must have known about her damn email coverup. No way is he going to let Justice indict her, and no way is he going to let Bernie get the nom. Hillary Clinton is the founding mother, as far as Obama's concerned, despite probably despising her. I don't think that squeaky-clean Obama is above putting his foot on the scale for Hill, his philosophical inspiration, in order to prevent a New Deal Dem from running the country.
Why didn't it dawn on them a year ago?
Not like that leopard has changed her spots. Was she compliant enough?
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I don't think they thought anyone would contest her god given
right.
Everything since then has come as one hell of a surprise, hence the nastiness.
It IS truly shocking and depressing to those of us
who have seen this melodrama play out. So much wasted effort, so much wasted money (pah!) and perhaps a little talent. For a pile of sand. No termite spit to hold it together.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Over the years
Markos has made it clear that the only older white men that he has any time for are the ones who line his pockets.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Top Comment!!! nt
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
AKA Flaily Ko$
N/t
The Democratic party is fucked.
They are as corrupted (maybe more) than the GOP. The 'good cop bad cop' act is wearing thin and I have finally realized that neither cop is 'good'.
There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams
Indeed, it's now, "Bad Cop, Worse cop."
And that is sad.
Ecuador is looking more and more attractive every year....
Or maybe Portugal?
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I'm looking at Panama, should
we trade ideas, as I hadn't thought about Ecuador lol!
LoL Panama was my initial plan actually for a variety of reasons
I researched the heck out of where I could retire on my modest pension and still maintain at least the same quality of life that I currently (semi) enjoy.
Both places are on my short list. I am still leaning towards Panama, but that is mostly because I love the Caribbean and also have easy access to the south pacific if I decide to sell my house and live on a Cat full time.
If you ever have any questions about it feel free to PM me, I would be happy to be of whatever help I may.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Too rich.
Hillary rounds up supers and gets them to commit to her before she announces she's running and before these supers even knew who else was running and now the little maggot racist fuck owner at the orange shithole is crying his little eyes out about the mean old Bernie trying to get the "supers to steal the election for him."
Good God, next he'll be saying Bernie made hillary use a "home brew" server and put it in a bathroom closet in Denver.
BernieOrBust...
I've been trying to tell people that the supers have always
been there to disenfranchise the vote. Or they would be redundant. They're only whining because it might bite their candidate. If they were so concerned about democracy, they never would have put the supers in place. Don't like the possibility of disenfranchisement? Tell it to the Dem party establishment. They're the ones who made it.
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The irony!
And the irony is that the whole point of Super-delegates was to override the primary results if a weak candidate was chosen over one with a higher probability of winning.
"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me
Re: Supers to steal the election for Bernie
Oh that is rich.
I know that a lot of you have sworn off MSNBC, but last night on The Rachel Maddow Show (subbed by Steve Kornacki) he had an excellent piece titled “Sanders' struggle has echoes of Clinton in 2008”
This is a bootleg copy, so watch it while you can. Everything Bernie is doing and saying right now was done by Clinton in the 2008 primary. Duration 12:00
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRUAjBYAU6w width:450]
Highlights (In case it gets taken down from Youtube):
Re: Bernie Sanders insisting the Democratic Primary will not be over next week after California votes and saying not to listen if the media declares Clinton the presumptive nominee. This posture is a sore spot with Clinton supporters. They want Sanders to step aside and send his supporters to her immediately.
What’s easy to forget though is that the posture Sanders is taking right now isn’t all that different from the posture Clinton took at this same time in the 2008 primary season.
All through the spring of 2008, Obama supporters kept saying the numbers couldn’t work for her and by pressing on she was damaging Obama’s chances of uniting the party and winning in the fall.
Similarities include:
1. Bernie Sanders has essentially zero chance of taking the lead in pledged delegates, but the same was true of Clinton in 2008.
2. Bernie is openly appealing to Super delegates to flip their votes for him, saying he is more electable, but Clinton did the same thing in a letter to Superdelegates in late May of 2008.
3. Bernie and his supporters have raised questions about the fairness of the Democratic Primary process, but Clinton went before the DNC rules committee on May 31, 2008 and after not getting her way, one of her stalwarts, Harold Ickes said a motion to restore all of the states pledged delegates but only give each half a vote would “hijack” the Democratic process, and threatened to fight the issue all the way to the convention. (Not sure if he was talking about MI & FL delegates)
4. Clinton supporters are saying by telling his supporters he still has a chance to win, he is setting unrealistic expectations, but on June 3, 2008, after the last primary (South Dakota and Montana) and after the media had declared Obama the presumptive nominee, here’s was how Clinton was introduced at her campaign event that night.
“Are you ready for the next President of the United States of America?”
(I’m not sure who the man was who introduced her, but that was the introduction he gave, according to the video that Kornacki played in this segment.)
5. Then there’s the polls. Clinton’s supporters are saying the longer Bernie stays in, the harder it will be to unify the party. But a recent poll showed that 72% of Sanders supporters would vote for Clinton if she were the nominee. But in 2008, only 60% of Clinton supporters said they would vote for Obama.
Shortly after that, Clinton’s posture changed and she endorsed Obama and the two started campaigning together. Kornacki says the lesson in all this is don’t concentrate on what Sanders is doing and saying now. Watch for what he does after the last primaries are over.
The last part of the segment features an interview with Geoff Garin who was part of Clinton’s 2008 campaign and who is now president of Hart Research Associates and he is a pollster for Priorities USA — one of Sec. Clinton’s Super PACS. He talks about the “courageous decision" Clinton made to endorse Obama.
Garin said that after Clinton lost North Carolina, they continued to campaign but tried not to do it in a way that hurt Obama’s chances in the fall if he were indeed the nominee.
But then again, Obama didn’t have questions about donations made to the Clinton Foundation, wasn’t involved in any sort of FBI Investigation, and wasn’t carrying around 20 years of drama, controversies and scandals (both real and “made-up.”)
Also, I think one of the reasons that then Sen. Clinton “didn’t try to take it all the way to the convention” (like Bernie says he is planning to do) is because by then, her campaign was already $25 million in debt. I don’t think Bernie has that problem.
And you have to remember that all the caucuses and primaries and the convention took place before the financial crash of 2008 and the Wall Street Bailout — a crash that was caused in large part by the repeal of Glass Steagall, as well as by the actions of some of Sec. Clinton’s largest donors like JP Morgan, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, Morgan Stanley, etc.
Things are very different now than they were in 2008.
In his segment, Kornacki referenced an article from The Atlantic
Clinton's Closing Argument To Superdelegates
It's got the full text of the letter she sent to all the super delegates saying they should support her because she was more electable.
Have trouble believing the NY Times poll quoted by MSNBC
in this segment (thanks for printing the transcript!):
3 out of 4 Bernie supporters say they'll vote for Clinton? That doesn't seem remotely accurate to me. Especially if in 2008 they came up with 60% of Hillary's supporters saying after the primaries ended they didn't intend to vote for Obama? I think it's way lower. Bernie has galvanized a way more passionate and committed wave of voters that Hillary ever has or could. I frankly don't see them being convinced to get in line.
This election season is for us, primarily, about exposing the charade of establishment insider politics and pulling the mask of the Dem Party to reveal that they are essentially one and the same with the Repugs, a corporate party beholden to Wall St and Money In Politics, which calcifies the chronic dysfunction in DC and greases the Revolving Door to keep the status quo of making heaps of money for insiders on the backs of the middle class. We're out in throngs at massive rallies to support Bernie because he's the rare candidate speaking unflinching truth to this power. There's no way in hell we're going to tow the company line. Not when the company has been crushing, defrauding and abandoning us for decades.
It is getting interesting, however, that the heat keeps coming at HRC and could make all the difference in how the superdelegates vote. But that wold rest on the assumption that they are not beholden to the same donors at work in DC. The Clinton Foundation appears to be another Vampire Squid like Goldman Sachs. And caught in the tentacles are all the big Party players who invariably find themselves aligned, associated or intertwined with that money laundering operation and its huge influence-peddling apparatus. I doubt very much there are even a few who aren't tainted by it.
The question then becomes, have Bernie's people been looking into securing enough state ballots to appear on the Green Party ticket? Frankly I just don't see how we can put all of our hope on appealing to a group of craven insiders. The irony is that he has the best case to make that he would unquestionably crush Trump in a landslide of epic proportions as the Democratic Candidate. Of course as the GP candidate against a Libertarian, Trump and Clinton he wins that too. But the best part about that latter scenario is that it is a clarion call that the two-party system and the decrepit slaves-to-money Dems and Repugs who have had a stranglehold on the process are finished.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
I agree that the number seems way off...
I wonder if they were only tallying Democratic supporters? I would really like to see the source data and how it was complied that they based this declaration on.
Because while my evidence is anecdotal, only about 1/3 or so of the Sanders supporters that I know personally will do so and many of them report the same ratios in their circles. (I know, it's odd relying on data from real world interactions, lol!) Almost universally with a disclaimer along the lines of the "Holding my Nose while doing it." theme
Many of these Sanders supporters that I am speaking with are not Big D democrats, they are a broad mix of Libertarian, Independent and even a smattering or Republicans. Think Hillary is going to pick up ANY of those?
I sure don't.
As far as enthusiastically supporting Clinton? I know exactly 1 registered Democrat Sanders supporter who has said they would support, donate, phone-bank etc. for Clinton. (Side note, this person also proudly proclaims to be a straight ticket Dem for 40 years, so there is that.)
Like it or not, Trump's supporters ARE enthusiastic. Scarily so, and in what is going to be at best a tight race enthusiasm is gonna kick tepid supports ass every time.
I am doubtful that she will even pick up the "First Female President" block completely. I know LOTS of people that would love to vote for the first female President, just not this one. (Warren used to be the go to from them, but I am hearing a wider variety of names over the last year or 2 during non-wonk conversations and I think that is an AWESOME indicator that we will indeed have a our first female president soon.)
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Addendum. That number has dropped, it used to be about half.
of his supporters in my circle that were pushing for Sanders said they would support Clinton.
I don't think the decline is even for causes such as the email hurting her in the General, it's more out of disgust over the number and weight of the thumbs on the scale from both the DNC and the MSM.
I think the DNC is really underestimating the amount of "Fuck You!" votes they are gonna have going against them and that is gonna hurt us on the down ballot too.
This was all so avoidable.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I suspect they were only tallying
the registered Dems, figuring the independent/no party affiliation folks would just sit out the election. They won't vote for Hillary, but they won't vote for Trump either.
Might be believable if it's
Might be believable if it's just Dem supporters.
"Likely Voter Models"
Most likely it was "likely" Dem voters, meaning a poll of people who voted Dem in the previous election. I can think of two large groups excluded from those numbers that would impact it downward. Way downward.
"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me
If you only ask registered democrats probably about right
if she swings rightwards later on I expect that to drop
hmmm, sad to see this essay, I thought
that Markos' shenanigans are not worth to be further discussed here. At least that's how I understood the last day's meta and other discussions.
But the site owners will not issue edicts, and good for them!
We can discuss the issues raised more than he who raised them.
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I had no idea it was forbidden
Not forbidden, LaFeminista.
Joe posted an essay and attempted to discourage it. Of course there is no edict or restrictions here.
I have not read it I admit
It has been pushed way down the page
by now and I don't see it linked anywhere. Anyone who wasn't around yesterday morning will miss it.
The comments got a bit heated!
But I think the gist was, we are encouraged to write about issues more than personalities.
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I'm always
vocal about how we should ignore TOP but this was too rich to pass up. I'm glad you posted it.
BernieOrBust...
Not a mandate...
more a suggestion.
I'm fine with that [iread your post] I do feel that it is
not just one individual saying this [he is not very original] but a whole section of the self labeling progressive blogosphere
Agree. That's the larger point.
The wanna-be elementary school principal's dumb, misleading and inflammatory authoritarian rants over at his corporate blog are emblematic of the kind of RW Neoliberal drivel that passes for Democratic Party messaging.
I think we should be vigilant of it all, expose it by sharing it and then pushing back against it.
"If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC"
- Kurt Vonnegut
Yes...
agreed LaFem, it goes much deeper than Kos.
As Joe and I both stated, twas not an edict, more a gentle nudging. No probs.
Dammit and he is the perfect example
I'll make it less personal and more general in the future, but his attitude is infectious and not in a good way
yep this is an important conversation to have even if it did
come from Markos. Insulting Bernie's supporters as too white and too male as been the strange strategy of the Hillary campaign from the start. To me, that strategy always had the appearance of having been orchestrated from the top down.
It's a mystery to me why the Democrats seem bent on alienating a huge chunk of the very voters that they need to maintain their voting coalition.
"Lilly White" ??!! What does he hope to accomplish by mocking the skin color of a huge number of voters. As Cenk reminded the Hillary campaign the other day: the majority of people in the US are white and if they don't vote for you, you lose.
And furthermore, I fail to see how mocking the skin color of white people builds solidarity between the working people of all races. I think it's clear that that building unity is not the goal of today's Democratic Elite.
The Democratic Party has jumped the shark, and methinks Markos might just be the shark. Who knows what it is in the thick sculls of Hillary's supporters that keeps them desperately repeating nonsense about the lily white skin of some Bernie supporters. So...if you vote for Hillary and your skin is white, is it a better shade of white? Perhaps creamy white? Perhaps a nice tan color? Ye gods, do these people even listen to themselves?
It almost looks like they have decided to throw the election to Trump.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Very few things are forbidden here.
Which is one of the things I really love about this place.
Personally, I don't have a big problem with it but I am from the "Know your Enemy" school of thought.
I think the fact that your title made it abundantly clear that it was an essay about TOP is more than enough to allow those that have zero interest in such things to avoid it.
I actually get a personal bonus out of such posts to some degree, it cuts down on the number of sites I have to go to on my Masochism Tour® (Tee hee hee). It also helps me have my counter arguments already ready in my head for if/when the topic comes up in other discussion.
But this is Caucus99, you could probably write in depth diaries about each level of the Bristol scale and they wouldn't get prohibited, lol!
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
But then again, if you talked about that scale you would still
be talking about Markos in a round-a-bout sort of way.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Type 7 n/t
The problem is he is not even original its like a photocopier
gone out of control and printing the same shit in a different order each time
Not forbidden, just discouraged
I think it's important to discuss it though, as a sign how the power brokers (and wannabes) are trying to spin matters so we can figure out how to counter the misinformation.
I'm happy to read this essay.
A lot of great discussion ensued.
It is a good way to keep up
with the latest official talking points from David Brock and the Clinton internet communications operation.
Hillary has a lot of supporters
from a broad range. It will be neat to see the demographics of her supporters once the campaign is over.
I saw a list of the best potential VP picks for HRC
And it finally struck me that I am not a democrat any more. Not one of the people on that list was picked for their potential to step up to the Job of president should so ething happen.. Which it has, more than once. Each was picked based on a specific ethnic need to help HRC be more acceptible to an electorate that doesn't want wither of the two top party picks.
I am feeling like There is no one who actually represents me or the things I deeply feel are important today and going forward.
I could happily vote for Senator Sanders in the GE but, for the first time in my life I feel I could also easily not vote... Because it really doesn't matter what I do.
Orwell was an optimist
"even with all those structural advantages"
Sure Kos.
Just imagine how badly Bernie would be crushing Hillary right now if the entire Dem establishment from day one hadn't been doing everything in its corrupt power to tip the scales in her favor.
The only structural advantage Bernie has is that this creaking old party machinery is so fragile that it can't even properly rig an election anymore.
That's the true reason for all the squealing by little pigs like kos: the sense that they are losing their ability to dictate the outcome, and that if the Big Bad Bernie Wolf keeps on huffing and puffing, their whole termite ridden house of corruption will come tumbling down around their stone deaf ears.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Or *thermite* ridden, as the case may be.
Sounds good to me! Who's got a match? That stuff burns through
Concrete, steel, stone, you name it.
It's time to Bern it down and build a new one anyway
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Free fall speed into its own footprint, baby !! n/t
Funny how just a little rust
Funny how just a little rust and aluminum can really ruin your day.
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore
To Markos
being white is an original sin, like biting the apple.
It's part of a greater effort to divide and conquer.
Or maintain the status quo.
The Republicans rally poor angry white people by telling them that Black "welfare queens" and Mexican "illegals" are the source of all their problems. The reason their jobs have been shipped over seas, their infrastructure sucks, and their kids have no future. Many have eaten this up, mostly because there has been no alternative narrative presented to them.
The Democratic party rallies people of color by suggesting that poor white people, especially the Republicans, but now also progressives, are the source of all their problems. That is their strategy for moving forward in light of demographic changes--to rally a group of people by hating on another group of people. In this way, the establishment successfully defined the primary narrative, not through substantive differences on issues, but by constantly pushing the meme that Bernie Sanders and his supporters are evil.
The Trump vs. Clinton campaign is going to be hateful and ugly, and it appears that things will only get worse moving forward.
In the meantime, you can rest assured that the corporate and bank executives will remain in control.
Yep
both parties are doing it in a slightly different way.
It's how the ruling class has always stayed in power, going all the ways back to feudal days.
Indeed any wedge issue that works
I remember DADT and DOMA during my teenage years and how much they affected me and my choices of career since I was seriously wanting to be a part of the The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and ended up taking a different path
Kos is a made man, at this point.
The DNC ran a money-laundering operation with Clinton. That looks rigged to me.
According to polls, 80% of democrats approve of
Obama's job performance. Hard to believe it's true but it has been a consistent 78-80% for the entire time he's been in office. Simply put they are supporting every bit a war criminal as George W. Bush. I also saw a poll that said 70% of Sanders' supporters will vote for Clinton if Sanders is not the nominee.
The little CIA dude is far from alone, the democratic party is a war party, there is no redeeming it.
My post the other day
about how Obama set all sorts of records for warmongering was met with outrage and denial on TOP.
No one could argue with the facts I presented so they simply dismissed them as facts and therefore concluded that it was a personal attack.
And they're doing the same thing with Clinton.
All we can do is bring the facts to as many people's attention as possible. Some will get it, some won't, many will simply refuse to listen.
Oh, that was for certain.
I had a quick read predictable and sad
Recent experience presenting just the facts got a don't lecture
me response.
Something I learnt during the Bush years, propose a war
and most will jump on the jingoistic bandwagon, some of the worst arguments I had during that time were with Democrats since I expected Republicans to be brain dead anyway
The episode of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History I am listening to
now is talking about our Jingoistic period in the latter 19th and early part of the 20th Century.
It is amazing how different people viewed the world back then.
If you are into history and like listening to podcasts and whatnot I can't recommend Dan Carlin highly enough. His Blueprint for Armageddon series on WW I is incredibly gripping and detailed. (And at 6 episodes that are several hours each quite the learning experience.) I especially enjoy how he interjects letters from those involved at the time and place that he is talking about adds more "Humanity" to the history.
I think I got more out of that podcast then I would have from any history class.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Thanks for the link, I'll have a listen later
I have read quite a few of the WW I poets
http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/biogs99.htm#ROBERT%20VON%20RANKE%20GRAVES
Cool! I hope you enjoy it!
I listen to it in the shower (Yea for waterproof phones!), while driving, mowing the lawn or sometimes when I am out in the boat and just floating around.
I like to keep my mind occupied when doing mindless tasks and Podcasts have been awesome for that.
My favorite app is BeyondPod, one of the few that my cheap ass actually ponied up some cash for. (It conglomerates podcasts from a variety of sources into one easily used interface, you can even save them for offline listening.)
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
I haven't listened to him for a while
I'll have to check that one out. He's done some excellent history podcasts over the years.
Beware the bullshit factories.
I like most of what Obama's done
I'm not sure there's been a president who isn't a war criminal except for maybe Jimmy Carter.
While he's better than what could have been
McCain/Palin or RMoney/Ryan, I've been disappointed in many of his actions and non-actions. I'm not the only one in my family either; my mother-in-law, who was campaigning for him when I was still on the fence (after supporting John Edwards -- not the first time I was taken by a handsome dude with good hair) has expressed her disappointment several times. I know he had a tenuous hold on the Senate at best -- only 59 because of the Minnesota recount situation, and having to count Lieberman in that total as well as other centrist/center-right Democrats. But I wish he could have gotten more done to help ordinary Americans.
Those approval ratings are
Those approval ratings are misleading because approve/disapprove is 50.01%/49.99% question, so I would approve of Obama even if I disapproved of 49% of what hes done.
Hi, La Feminista, my comment above proved itself
superfluous and negated itself, as your essay resulted in comment threads that went way beyond just the discussion of one person on TOP.
Unlike you I had just quite intensely read over the weekend the meta discussions going on, which probably resulted out of of my short, less detailed rant diary about "what Markos said" a day or so before. That one blew over with lots of emotional comments all relating to TOP and his "leader". Which then, I believe, triggered some reactions in the meta discussions.
Those discussions were good for me to think through. With that in mind I woke up and saw your essay first thing in the morning and just scanning the headline, I poured out my comment, because you know, I was tired and have had it with that subject for a while. Sorry for that. I didn't mean to "silence" your voice. I was just "sick and tired" to go through similar thoughts again.
I am a little doubtful about those, who discovered issues involving the TOP's leadership tactics only during the last couple of months. It was there to observe before, imo.
The comments are quite insightful. Please proceed as you see fit. Peace.
Not a problem, I think this type of attack needs to be
discussed on a wider scale and I will do my best not to personalize this tactic into one all too easy target.
The attack is one designed to divide not unify.
I just took a look at TOP
The diaries on the Rec'd list have tonnes of comments, but almost all of the recent diaries have few if any comments.
That's not a healthy trend.
i'd like to see all the other Democratic candidates...
...endorse Sanders. after all, they were bold enough to go up against Clinton. I was for O'Malley before Sanders got in the race. I just wanted a candidate, practically any candidate other than Clinton. Sanders made the leap and I made it with him.
The thing that frosted my nipples colder than a witch's tit...
... in January, was that Markos & a whole bunch of other lemming writers & bloggers in the bag for $Hillary was the fact that they were saying she was the 'inevitable' candidate for the Dems, and they adamantly refused to acknowledge there might even BE another candidate for the Dem party other than her, no matter what. It was Hillary all the time, 24/7, just as it was every Sunday years ago when Georgie Sephanopolous used propaganda to promote the idea that someday she would be prez, and, of course, now little Georgie has two shows from which he can spew his propaganda: GMA & This Week. Well, okay. I turned off my TV a couple of years ago so I don't watch them (and I quit watching This Week many years ago because of Georgie's weekly propaganda speech about $Hillary, but I see news blurbs in nooz feeds once in a while where he and his cohorts yap about HRC like good propagandists.
To all those propagandists: Fuck Off! Really, most of us can think for ourselves...!!! As a nation, the most incredibly stupid thing we could do is "elect" $Hillary (or Drumpf). Doubly incredibly stupid would be to make $Hillary the Dem candidate to run against Drumpf.
It suggests to me that the DINOS (many of whom are also superdelagates) would love nothing better than to elect Drumpf so he can distract everyone from what the DINOs & Rethugs are doing in that "shadow government" they've created.
Bastages.
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960
Still have TV
but it's mainly tuned to sports, HGTV (for me; I'm a Property Brothers addict) and Food Network (Mr. S. loves Cutthroat Kitchen). We'll catch the local news at 10 to keep up with what's going on around the Bay, then if we stay up late enough maybe Colbert or one of the other late night comics. Rarely watch any of the national news shows; maybe CNN if nothing good on radio.
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