The Libertarians Are Coming To Get Me! WTF
I could not be bothered to answer it there but since it is being wrecked I thought I would comment upon it here
The premise so you don't have to go there:
The libertarians are coming for the frustrated and angry that the GOP can’t get. And they’re going to come after the Bernie Or Bust movement. With two ex Republican governors on the ticket they’re going to try and draw from both the Republican and Democratic party. Since the Republican party is as close to Libertarian as you can get, and some would argue that the Republican party was actually hijacked by Libertarians, how could they possibly appeal to the Bernie or Bust movement?
One the Republican Party is in no way libertarian, it is corporation hugging authoritarian.
Libertarians just want to throw people to the wolves and hope they are the ones that benefit in life's lottery.
The left wing versions of Libertarians are the Anarchists which come in a few different types, I have some interest in the prewar Italian Anarchist movement which was more Utopian in nature.
Social Democrats and socialists have absolutely zero in common with either.
What we want is good government by the people and for the people and that includes a system that picks people up when they fall and gives everyone an equal opportunity to succeed.
- The reason we are angry is that the Democratic Party has followed the Republican Party down the same bloody path.
- The reason that we are angry is that the Democratic Party elite decided the election was over even before it started.
- The reason we are angry is that this same elite is in the pocket of the wealthy and their Corporations.
- The reason we are angry is that the Party has paid lip service to our support for decades.
- The reason we are angry is that they do not represent us.
Some really are incapable of seeing the difference between a social democrat/socialist and a right wing group of authoritarians playing the liberty card?
We are not that fucking stupid.
The only thing the Democratic Party has going for it at this time is that they are probably not as bad as the Republican Party, however try telling that to those:
- who died in the Kunduz bombing,
- we hold without trial,
- we kill on a daily basis
- whose governments we overthrow based upon a whim.
- We also fought against the three strikes and you are out laws that created the Prison Industrial Complex
- We fought against DOMA and DADT
- We fought against the "Free Trade" fiascos that wrecked workers rights.
- We fought against Bush's wars in Afghanistan abd Iraq when many other Democrats jumped on the bandwagon.
Not because we wanted our fucking flag hugging liberties but wanted a better society.
This is why we are still fighting against a money corrupted system whilst they support one of its byproducts.
Hillary Clinton is of the elite and for the Status Quo.
We want a revolution whereby all have:
- Equal rights
- Equal opportunity
- Where money is not the be all and end all in our society
- Where success is determined by different metrics than the size of you offshore account
- Where the wealth of the nation is used for the common good and not for the exclusive benefit of the oh so few.
If the cannot see why we are angry, fuck em and their money grubbing party
Vote Libertarian?
Are you fucking kidding me?
Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Comments
No. Bernie wouldn't support libertarianism.
Libertarians preach "Every man for himself [and woman too, I suppose]. The natural result of their philosophy is a world made up of competing warlords. Not good for children and other growing things.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Totally agree.
My top objection to the Libertarian platform
is that they want to eliminate both personal income and corporate taxes, and replace them with a national sales tax. That would likely screw the poor and middle class the most while leaving the wealthy untouched except when they decide to go buy a new yacht or something.
I could probably be considered a small "l" libertarian -- I'm a Christian who subscribes to the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what thou will." But the big "L" Libertarians go way too extreme in most areas for me.
I'm also leaning Green should Hillary (or her chosen successor if she has to leave the race after the convention) is the nominee; fortunately in California I have that option. If more people did have that option they could be a viable 3rd party. But the average American voter is too lazy to go for something other than Column D or Column R.
My objection to the Libertarians is that they ain't libertarians
Pardon the ain't, ran out of characters for aren't
Simply speaking, the Libertarian party going back quite some time has never actually been "Libertarian" at least not in the original philosophical sense that was understood during "The Age of Reason"
Now true, they are more Libertarian than they were under Lyndon Larouche, and I actually sort of like Gary Johnson but..
Modern libertarians have all split from the Republican part and are all small/no government anarchists. This is not actual libertarianism, as it was understood by the philosophers the founding fathers read.
It's like they stopped with Libertarianism 101 or maybe 201 in college. Locke knows they never got to the graduate classes.
The modern Libertarians all think, for various reasons that the greatest threat to their Liberty is the government.
However, in a true democracy (and I would argue we exist in a rigged democracy, but still for a little while, technically a democracy that can be saved) the enemy of Liberty is not the government, but rather one's fellow citizens who seek to exercise their "Liberties" at the expense of "Ones own Liberties"
And true Libertarianism recognizes that a fairly elected democratic government is the best armor against the threat of your fellow citizens seeking to expand their 'Liberty' at 'the expense of others, e.g. you and me'
The perfect example are those self-identified "Christians" who seek to have the 'Liberty' to exclude others from the same rights and privileges they enjoy. "Bathrooms, Water Fountains,Marriage, Lunch-Counters, you name it"
The believe they have the "right" to not have to "tolerate" those who disagree with them. The problem is, that in exercising their "right" or "Liberty" they are infringing on the "rights" a "liberties" of other equal citizens.
Thus, it is the government, that must be the referee to ensure that the rights and liberties of one group do not unfairly diminish or restrict the "rights and liberties" of another, unfairly.
The same is true when a large company decides it wants all the water under your town and uses their Chocolate-Powered money and clout to force you to give them your water. This "corporate individual" is seeking to diminish the rights of those in the town to drink the water that resides below their feet.
Thus, once again, you must have a strong government to arbitrate and ensure a level playing field for all who have agreed to participate and live within the nation's "Social Contract"
It is the government, of, by and for, the people that must ensure the guarantee of Liberty for all and not just for some, the few and the wealthy.
The modern "libertarians" are by and large, ignorant of these simple facts. No serious Libertarian Philosopher would ever agree with their half-assed view of reality.
And quite frankly the situation we have arrived at now is because all 3 parties in question, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians have forgotten or purposefully misunderstood the nature of the Social Contract enshrined in the constitution. They have been so blinded by their short sighted greed, that they have allowed the Liberties of the Wealthy and Powerful, to diminish and restrict the rights of the many.
The 1% have, in exercising their Liberty, have stolen the Liberty of the 99%; and they were allowed to do this because our government forgot its purpose. Interestingly, there was a time after Franklin Roosevelt and before Reagan when members of both parties understood this to some level. At least for white people. However, I do believe Kennedy and Johnson understood it more broadly, but were constrained by the apartheid like establishment (segregation) within which they worked.
So my point being, these government hating people who claim to be Libertarians are simply not Libertarians, they are in fact Anti-Libertarians, they seek to weaken the only enforcer of Liberty that we have, the government, so that they and their friends may profit at the expense of others.
____________________________________________________________________________
"I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it. "
-Niccolo Machiavelli
"Sorry Hillary"
-TheJerry
The best description I've read
for a true libertarian philosophy went something like this:
"Your freedom to swing your arms about wildly ends about an inch from my nose."
That's why I like Cali Scribe's Wiccan Rede.
This is a quote from one of the very few diaries I wrote at ToP many years ago.
"Freedom is about granting to others what we wish for ourselves. By withholding freedom from others, our own freedoms are lost to us. By refusing to recognize the rights of others our own rights are diminished.
I've heard it said that love is a gift which, when given freely to others, is increased for those who do the giving. Freedom is like that, too."
The first thing anyone who wants to talk about Liberty
needs to do, is admit that private property is the single most egregious affront to individual liberty that has ever been created by the mind of man.
I'm not the least interested in hearing some dumbass go on about liberty if he doesn't realize that the most basic, fundamental liberty is the liberty to walk across the land where thou wilt.
I'm not saying, BTW, that I'm opposed to any form of private property.
I'm just opposed to dumbass "libertarians" whose philosophy is actually all about protecting, not the liberty of the mass of the population, but the privileges of the propertied class.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
(Some) Dems support VATs--Al From wants one to 'replace' Social
Security (FICA) tax, etc. He said this on C-Span's Washington Journal.
Not to pick on you, CS. I detest libertarian economics, as well. Of course, the problem remains that the Dem Party Establishment's fiscal policies are basically libertarian.
For years (until this year), Bill Clinton has been the 'key note speaker' at Pete Peterson's annual fiscal summit.
Voted for Stein in 2012, but, so far, Greens haven't gained access (here). What a mess!
Mollie
"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
SOSD Rescues Available For Adoption Or Sponsorship
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
your use of "libertarian"
In other words, the pre-hijack use of the term.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
as Chill Wills once said: PEOPLE, People people!
(In McLintock, as the Rodeo on July 4, collapsed, he said that)
SHIT ON what passes for Libertarians, etc. in the US.
Do y'all realize that THE BIGGEST PROPERTY OWNERS in the US, the rich ones, THE BILLIONNAIRES, have mostly crept quietly out in the past 4 years, abandoned their US citizenships, BUT ARE STILL, LIKE THE KOCHS, throwing SHITLOADS of money into US politics? Yup... they have...
And I'll guarantee you the Obama watched it and has said nothing. SANDERS NOTED IT and even mentioned it in a speech either the end of last year or early this year, don't remember which... could have been earlier.
So let's BRING EVERY KIND of pressure to bear on the Clintons, who IMO are NOT going to get rid of Wasserman Schultz... she isn't going to resign and no one is going to vote her out before the convention... the rumor is an issue-confuser, IMO --- TO KEEP BERNIE AS AN OPTION AND THEN FORCE HIM THROUGH AT CONVENTION.
And then, when HE is in and when the Teabaggits are cut down a great deal in congress and Senate, let's GO AFTER THE WEALTH OF THOSE WHO FLED THIS COUNTRY AND MANIPULATE IT FROM BEYOND OUR BORDERS.
Let's pull an Iceland and take their property and all their money away from them.
******************************
Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
JayRaye, is it true that for the first time in modern history
…that Workers/Labor in the US are not represented by either Party?
That's a theme I'm picking up from the Great Buzz out there. Wouldn't that be rather shocking?
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Pluto neither party has supported the working class
except for that brief period of time when FDR pushed thru the New Deal. And Truman immediately started chipping away at it. Yes I know, as I've been told so often when I bring this up..."but but Truman vetoed Taft-Hartley." Yes he did but then T-H was passed with the help of Democrats and once passed, Truman used T-H against workers 12 times according to this source, and I've seen higher than that in some of my books:
https://www.boundless.com/business/textbooks/boundless-business-textbook...
The Ludlow Massacre happened with a Democrat in charge of the state militia (Gov. Ammons)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/4/20/1083217/-WE-NEVER-FORGET-April-2...
President Cleveland, Democrat, helped to crush the Debs Rebellion.
http://darrow.law.umn.edu/documents/Altgeld_protest_to_Cleveland.pdf
The governor in charge of the militia during the Michigan Copper Strike, Governor Ferris, was a Democrat. Militia routinely ran down the strikers and threatened and abused them. Deputies shot a young girl in the back of the head as she tried to flee. Whether or not that deputy was also a mine guard and a member of the militia, I do not know, in this case, but that was a common practice both in the Michigan and the Colorado strikes. The Governor gave the strikers no protection, none, and we all know how that one ended.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/9/7/1236992/-Hellraisers-Journal-In-M...
http://caucus99percent.com/content/we-never-forget-christmas-eve-1913-it...
I could go on and on like this, but my dogs are waiting for a walk. The Democrats have rarely been on the side of workers. Perhaps I will do a long diary someday about the massacres committed upon strikers under Democrats: Presidents, Governors and Mayors. Why unions continue to support Democrats, I do not know.
All that money spent on Democratic candidates should be spent on building up a war chest and preparing for strikes. Everything we ever won was won thru strikes. Even FDR was mostly motivated by the desire to end industrial unrest and, anyway, FDR was a long time ago. We should forget the idea that the Democrats are our friends, because, for the most part, they haven't been and they definitely are not our friends at this point in time.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Write in
Several months ago, sometime in the fall, I decided that if his name was not printed on the ballot I would write in Bernard Sanders. Of course, what else? I am a Vermonter and have been voting for him for years. I had a very nice meeting with one of our top neurologists at our biggest medical complex last week. He's a couple of years older than me, that is 72 or so. He said, and I think he is right, that if somebody actually organized the effort that Bernie could win our state with a write in vote.
I'm in.
Will be writing in Bernie come the fall.
Given that Bernie got 85% (!) in the primary here, I'd say he might have a chance to carry Vermont.
The 99 percent are searching for answers.
There is much in common that we need to recognize. Number one is democracy, we all deserve to have our voice heard and counted. At least libertarians are against war and imperialism, something that can't be said for the democratic party and its supporters and many Sanders supporters. The revolution first and foremost must be about wrestling the power from the ruling elite that hold it, dismantling their institutions, and forming a real democratic government and society. Without everyone having an equal voice it will never work.
Thats called socialism, the self labelled libertarians are
anything but egalitarian they just want a vulture capitalist based system
You are painting with way too broad a brush here:
My Libertarian-leaning friends don't even know what "vulture capitalist based system" is, much less want it.
Some Libertarian voters just want to smoke pot and not be hassled about it.
Telling folks what "they just want" does not in any way help us to understand what they really do want or why they are voting as they do.
Only open non-judgmental dialog can do that.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Libertarianism has nothing to do with smoking pot
and everything to do with a free for all and that has absolutely nothing to do with Bernie Sanders policies and past works.
Call themselves libertarians, fine by me, I'll fight them all the way.
Actually the Libertarian Party does support the
legalization of marijuana.
Why do you insist on fighting people who could probably be won over to socialism?
Isn't a full discussion of the policies of the Libertarian Party better than declaring battle against the Libertarian Party. Why alienate when we could educate?
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
The Libetarian Pary is the target, pot is just one of
their little issues they like to pretend they actually care about
"one of their little issue..."
You really can't see how disrespectful that is to someone who leans Libertarian. Why are you so opposed to calmly discussing the platform of the Libertarian Party?
That is the only way that those voters can be won over.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
In a more concilliatory tone
There is a distinct difference between Libertarianism and those actually running the "Libertarian" Party and their intentions.
Not so much to the people who vote Libertarian
..when you mock their political choice, then they see it as you mocking them. When you say you are going to fight them anyway you can, they see it as you declaring a fight against them personally and collectively.
Why is so hard for you to just acknowledge that some of their reasons for supporting that party are valid and not just some "little" issue-it isn't so little if you've ever been locked up for smoking pot and didn't have the money to make bail. And then after showing them the respect of acknowledging an issue that is important to them, you take it from there, by pointing out areas where they might want to reconsider their choice.
That is, you could try that approach if your real goal is actually to win them over rather than to just prove how superior you are to them.
You do realize that Libertarians are welcomed here at c99, right? And if and when they show up, they should be treated with respect, and the platform of their party discussed with respect.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Thank you for these comments.
There is no revolution without common ground. I think many libertarians would have voted for Bernie. The revolution will not happen without votes, and as HRC will see, enemies are not helpful.
Many progressive ideas are libertarian ideals too. There is no reason that Libertarianism can't coexist with with a left leaning coalition. Sure, the anarchists that want no government would rather vote Trump, but most of the folks I know with libertarian leanings do not want anarchy. They are more interested in getting our government out of other governments business. They don't want people put in jail for smoking pot they don't want the prison complex or the MIC. I think many want health care, social security, fire fighters, teachers etc.
In any case, lumping them all together is invariably wrong as it is wrong when the actions of one Bernie supporter are used to vilify all supporters. Libertarians and Republians are people too, except Dick Cheney.
Peace out, tmp.
thx for your comments, tmp
I really think many of these folks can be reached esp the ones who go to the LP that were Bernie supporters. I don't think a lot of the Bernie supporters will go Libertarian if Hillary gets the nom, that was overblown in the DK article (typical of DK), but some will. And logic has little to do with it.
But thru calm discussion rather than mocking or declaring them our enemies, I think they can be reached.
But it certainly doesn't help when my fellow socialists mock and belittle them or make light of issues that are important to them.
Living under the threat of going to jail in the state of Texas just because you smoke a little bit of pot is not a small issue to certain of my family members, esp since nobody had the money to make bail at the time.
And if there are kids in the house, then the next thing that happens is that CPS comes knocking at your door. Now you might be the biggest drunk in the world, no problem, but smoke a little pot and get arrested for it and CPS will come knocking at your door. It is a big issue, CPS can pretty much take your kids whenever they want if you get arrested and you are poor and you can't afford a lawyer.
Now when I heard Johnson on the radio, pot is one of the first things he mentioned, so he is aware of what a big issue it is for some folks.
Some Socialist are just completely tone-deaf when it comes to discussing the issues that actually affect poor and working class people and what is important to them. Before we can win people over, we have to know what is important to them. And that happens by listening, not by mocking or judging.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
if the dems had made legalization a cornerstone
of the 2010 campaign, many things would be much better now.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Okay, I may be wrong.
I have never really investigated the Libertarian platform. Perhaps they aren't as extreme as I view them to be.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
"they" are extremely extreme, if you're talking
about the platform and the people running the show.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I think they're pretty extreme.
I feel completely, 100% comfortable saying that I don't like Libertarian values and I don't espouse them. In fact, I barely understand them, given that they basically just want no government at all.
I heard this on TOP a long time ago, and I still think it's somewhat true: Libertarians are just Republicans who smoke pot and have sex.
All that being said, at least 1/4 of my friends in Colorado are/were Libertarian. There's a huge streak of Libertarianism in the Wild, Wild West, that's for sure.
I miss Colorado.
They are somewhat moderate on social issues and extreme on
economic issues. The way I usually discuss Libertarian economic policies with the Libertarian-leaning people that I know is to tell them that the LP wants absolute economic freedom for the Corporations and that they (being poor) can kiss their food stamps and medicaid and section-8 housing and social security goodbye. I handed my sister-in-law a knife and told her she should just go on ahead and cut her own throat if she was gonna vote Libertarian. We were fixing thanksgiving dinner at the time and the conversation got a bit heated, I will admit.
But the conversation switched to where we have common ground and things cooled down.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
I would never support democracy
…in any country that has no Fairness Doctrine, or that allows advertising on public-owned airwaves during news broadcasts, or where it is legal for media news programs to spread disinformation intended to distort voting outcomes.
I am also against the sham of democracy used by any country that allows private campaign funding of any kind.
Until those conditions are corrected, I only support a sitting panel of willing experts and citizens chosen by lottery to act as President.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Well sure.
The conditions certainly have to be right, if that can possibly be done. I have my doubts on that. I wouldn't be against looking at a fairly human proof representative system. Devil's in the details always.
The libertarians is the new NADAR
All these people who are convinced HRC will win the GE are also prepared to blame someone else for why she loses.... Since Bernie has not run an INDEPENDANT 3rd party campaign it won't really work to label him a new NADAR so we now have the trope that BernieBros will all vote for the libertarian ticket.
It's kind of funny is makes for every entertaining tweets
It also goes in hand with a diary on top proclaiming that All Bernie supporters now live in a closed BERNIE bubble... I was going to make a comment in that one but then I remembered Bernie supporter comments don't make it into the DK HRC bubble... They are flagged on site (wink)
my comment was going to be.... Someone needs to poke a few holes in the HRC bubble on DK before you all suffocate from lack of clean air
Orwell was an optimist
It's amazing how narrow minded they have become - or maybe
I missed it that they have always been that way
Some were already. Others followed the crowd.
Either way, insipid content.
To tell ya the truth I never paid that close attention before
This whole Bernie Sanders campaign caught fire... I used to read the diaries of people I find interesting and or entertaining and ignore everything else... And many of the people I like to read now post here
Was it,you who said this is the pumas returned? Whoever said it, it made me laugh because that's how I see DK these days.. A nasty bunch of puma people who will KILL rather then let anyone steal this from HER a second time!!
I think they have to much of their own. Self Identities wrapped up in HER... It's almost like being in a grade B movie about the early 70s...on so many levels.
But I digress (smile)
Orwell was an optimist
LOL!
Man, stop going to that place. It's bad for your mental health!
/says the chick who just went on the Masochism Tour (thanks, AlphaLoop, I'm using that from now on! :P) a few hours ago. Heh.
I miss Colorado.
Sorry, I'm voting Green...
Now, I have friends who are libertarians... And we agree on exactly one thing.
OPEN DEBATES.
Now, if the Democrats and Rethugs would be so kind as to oblige us, we'd never agree on anything else ever again.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
What's the point?
You're all going to vote for Hillary in the end to "stop trump". We've lost. We've lost for decades and we will always lose unless we cleanse the Democratic Party. I held my nose and voted for Kerry to "stop Bush". Bush won and the world didn't stop. If we didn't vote for the lesser evil, if neoliberals failed at the polls by a massive amount, maybe it would be different. But as long as dissenters can be persuaded to hold their nose and vote for the lesser evil, Evil will always win. Because they DO own your votes. They just wave the boogeyman and you panic like sheep and fall into line.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Who, those at TOP?
Long as you're not talking directly at anyone here. This place came to be in part because of that mindset:
No. And we haven't "lost" yet, so please, get a hold of yerself
Oh stop being such a pessimist and go PHONEBANK for Bernie :)
Nobody has won or lost anything... Yet.
Orwell was an optimist
I question the value of phone banking
I've done it. Most people resent a stranger calling on their home phone to tell them how to vote. It may even be counterproductive. Going door to door seems much more effective, especially in one's own neighborhood or precinct.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
of course, now we know Bush wasn't evil at all
or so we're told. Happened in the Bush years? ok to do it now!
The illogic is stunning. We have to vote against those evil Republicans!! This is the most important election ever!! But we'll hide behind the excuse that Colin Powell did something (which he didn't, by the way) so it's fine if we do the same thing (even though it's actually worse). But, weren't they an evil administration? How can we use them as models? And if they weren't evil but "you" (that's the Dems and their spokespeople) said they were then how can we believe you now?
So you are going to vote for Hillary, after all.
You KNOW Jill Stein won't make it.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Uh . . . is this snark?
Or are you serious?
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
I can't tell either, because it really did
seem like a comment meant specifically for TOP. Huh.
I miss Colorado.
Very serious
Haven't you read all the comments that say vote Green if you live in a red or purple state (where it won't mean anything) but vote (D) (i.e. Hillary) if you are in a purple state? All the comparisons of Trump to Hitler?
Well, either Trump or Hillary is going to be President, unless God really exists and strikes them both dead. (I'm tempted to pray)
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
goodness me, you have not been paying attn, here or, e.g.,
at the kossacks for reddit subthread. The DNC bias, election "discrepancies" and fraud, the Clinton campaign's slimy tactics (Brockbots et alia), and the candidate herself have been turning off D and D-inclined voters throughout this election. People are changing their registration to unaffiliated in state after state after voting for Bernie; more swear to do that after the convention or GE. AZ did it for some. NY did it for many.
If Sanders isn't the nominee, some Bernie or Bust voters plan to vote for Trump in part to hasten the demise of the corrupt Democratic Party. Though I could not vote for Trump--or Clinton--I understand the sentiment. I've been a registered D > 40 years. And I no longer consider myself a Democrat.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
If it's not Bernie, I'm going Green
It's been over 40 years for me as a Democrat, but if Hillary is our candidate, I am not following her down the ethical and political drain.
I will not vote for Hillary. The Green Party candidate is Dr. Jill Stein, and she is great. As I understand it, she has offered a place for Bernie on their ticket if he wants. If Hillary is the Democratic nominee, it would be great to see Bernie on the Green Party Primary ticket (if I recall correctly, I think their Primary is after the Democratic Party Primary).
Please understand that I am typing based on recollections of how things fit together, so let my general point be understood, even if the details are a bit frayed.
Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.
EXCUSE ME, Mr./Ms. Voice in the Wilderness....
You SURE AS SH!T CAN NOT READ MY MIND, dammit.
Nor, I suspect, can you read anyone else's mind here. Or maybe you were just misreading the folks here, who discuss a lot and consider a lot of things, UNLIKE "that other place" where people are forced into KLINTOON lockstep by the poor deluded wealthy fool who thinks there is a such a thing as a "libertarian democrat", though the only reason he does that is to include himself in the Democratic party IMNSHO.
And getting back to what you wrote about "sheep" (or the "sheeple" you referred to, even though I don't think you used that term)), the logical conclusion is that they're not stupid, just herbivorously pragmatic when they're in a hurry.
Have you ever been slammed or knocked clear off your feet onto your surprised can by even a few running sheep? Those are very sharp hooves and they can't and sometimes won't attempt to avoid you if you're near a bottleneck they're heading through. You'll be black and blue from your face clear down to your ankles. And having seen them outwit even an experienced human shepherd (though never a good working dog
IOW, don't disparage sheep while you are crapping on some humans as you write. The sheep might just run the fvck right over ya. Hey, "just sayin'."
There is a reason that I PREFER just about ANY animal other than humans, when compared to them. Human beings are the only species I've seen where individual humans repeatedly and often consistently exhibit pride in their repairable stupidities.
Oh, wel....
Back to my drawing board, my knitting and my search for the perfect salad.
Be well..
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Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
I hope I can come back in November
And abjectly apologize. But I don't think so. I've seen too many elections including three way elections. Wallace did stop Humphrey, but that just got Nixon elected. Anderson had no effect at all. Neither did Ross Perot. If Nader had any effect, it was to deny Gore. A third candidate isn't going to win. When the convention nominates Shillary, Goldman-Sachs wins and the people lose. If those idiots in the South hadn't given a massive lead to Hillary, we would have had a chance. ironically, all those states will be going to Trump.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Well, crittur whoever you are,
I WILL NOT VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON.
it's really odd. I went to sleep later after I wrote what i wrote to you, and for the first time in years i dreamed about the love of my life, though I am not the love of HIS life, he was the love of mine. Oh, I married, later, much later, but the lifelong effect that first chap, the one who took me to meet Bill and Shillary, really was THE love of my life.
I came damned near to suicide when we broke up, and no I didn't break us up.
If nothing else, writing about that picnic this time -- that fundraiser in Conway... finally let my sleeping mind lay to rest the last of the ache. I don't hurt any more..
AND I STILL WON'T VOTE FOR THAT LYING GOD DAMNED BITCH.
If I have to WRITE IN SANDERS IN CRAYON, I'LL GODDAMNED DO IT.
Feel free to apologize to ME now....
As for the others HERE whom you referred to as sheep, I hope each one of them pokes you in the ass, the ribs, the knees, the arms, the elbows.. OR STOMPS ON FINGERS AND TOES WITH THEIR POINTY LITTLE HOOVES...
They can speak for themselves.
BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... humbug
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Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
The comments on this HuffPo piece say otherwise
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/-sanders-candidacy-has-ev_...
Many many pledges of Bernie write-in or nothing and disgust with Clinton and her establishment brand of party and politics.
A mild example:
A less mild e.g.:
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
I don't know who "you're all" is referring to
But it sure as shit isn't me.
I'm not voting for Hillary, and a whole lot of us here ARE NOT VOTING FOR HILLARY.
So... I'm not sure who this comment is directed to.
All the people who say they will vote for her to stop Trump.
I've read many here. Personally, I hope he wins. Then maybe the fraud of the two party system with one corporate master will be exposed. But, either way, their is no hope until 2024 and some other corporate toadie will be elected. But the fix is in for 2016 and 2020.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Oh?
You've read many here who "say tey will vote for her to stop Trump", have you?
NAMES PLEASE.... I don't buy it. I just don't buy it.
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Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
Good post. They live in an unreal world there.
Their biggest threat is apathy among Bernie voters in November or The Green Party. The rec list there is controlled by rather unsmart Clinton supporters.
One problem is the definition of "Libertarian" in the US
is wildly different from the historical, European Libertarianism. The label was hijacked by a business cabal, and sold to the public with Randian fiction as the new Bible.
The self identified Libertarians I have talked with
vary in their beliefs rather widely.
The purists seem to come from the Austrian school of economics, Hayek, Von Mises, Rothbard et al. They are steeped in the belief that we if we protect property rights and civil rights - most importantly the former - everything else will magically work itself out. Their theories are gibberish that have no real world realities. I always chuckle at the irony when they criticize Marxism as authoritarian/utopian. Meanwhile, their heroes are blatant racists that believe people are economic failures because the choose to be.
The other Libertarians I talk to are usually much more reasonable and recognize that if we had less government in some areas, we'd waste a lot less money governing. But then, they get wishy washy with details on specific issues.
Libertarians are 50% good, and 50% full of shit...pro-civil rights but economically ultra conservative.
Hello Blueslide! I wonder how a theory of natural
phenomena would look if it were "50%" good.
I think it would be akin to the phlogiston theory of heat.
In any event, economic theory, which is all that the Vienna Economic school is, is not a theory of human society or its interactions. There are too many presuppositions and unquestioned assumptions.
I never trust a theory of any natural phenomenon which cherry picks at the outset which observable phenomena are relevant.
In mathematics, this is necessary to generate proofs. However, these proofs are absolute truths, assuming the premeses are correct.
Mathematics and logic are the only places where the premeses can be construed as always obtaining, because they are always there. They stay right where our imaginations put them.
Not so the worlds of humans, hadrons, and the hadrons' squamous, mighty forparticles - the hadrosaurs.
"If we just worry about sticking with [fill in your creation epic here], then we can dispense with all of this evolution stuff and save a lot of money otherwise wasted on research and on building Noah's-Ark theme parks."
That is an allegory of the heuristic method of the Vienna Economic School in a nutshell.
Another is, "If we would just worry about walling up behind hydraulic cement everyone who espouses the nonsense of the Vienna Economic School, we would no longer have to worry about the Vienna Economic School."
No members of the Vienna Economic School were harmed in the crafting of this comment.
Peace and love be with you, reader.
One Person should equal One Vote.
Parties don't really matter when we the voter don't even fucking COUNT.
Literally.
And I'm not the only one. Fraud. A crime in at least my state where at least tens of thousands were not able to vote due to registration fraud.
Exactly who are going to "vote" for any fucking party. It's rigged. So first, we need to take apart the damn machine and build it correctly.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
Our RW neighbors swore they'd vote Libertarian if Trump were
the nominee.
Would more than a meaningless statistical blip (if that) of Bernie supporters go Libertarian? omg no. More would vote for Trump, if online discussions are a guide. But hell, Clinton & Co. are going after the critically endangered--and perhaps extinct--moderate Republican. A creature now akin to a... unicorn.
As noted by others, the big bloc of Bernie or Bust voters would write in Sanders, vote Green, or vote Working Families Party. That's what the blogosphere suggests, anyway. Libertarian? What a colossally stupid idea.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
Yer damn right.
So, the Greens want Bernie. Jill will move over and let hiim take the high spot if he dumps the Dems before the July Dem convention and before the Green convention in August.
Why not go to a sure thing there?
Yeah, I know, not all 50 states.. etc...
Okay, before all the variety even in GMO veg disappears off the face of the earth, I'm going looking for components to a perfect salad.
Be well, all
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Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
(No subject)
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Muerte al fascismo. Muerte a la tiranía. colapso total de los que promueven tampoco. A la pared con el unico porciento%
Welcoming libertarians to our website would be a mistake
They will sound reasonable, but they're brainwashed and we will have difficulty weeding out the propagandists. Because lets face it, most of the Libertarians who would come here would be propagandists, trying to steal our support, rather than join us.
This article details the propaganda methods they employ that they wrote up back in the 70's. Don't dismiss it because it might seem dated, it's very sophisticated and has slowly worked on many former progressive, now libertarian people. Learn about Cross Platforming and Left Drawer/Right Drawer. Its about as Orwellian as it gets. The LP was founded by the elites and Oil.
https://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/lying-to-liberals/
Honestly, I couldn't be more opposed to JayeRay on this issue. Fuck the Libertarians. Don't let them come anywhere near this place and do not welcome them at all. We do NOT want to get into the false belief that we can ally with those people.
It would be more disastrous than allying with Shillary.
I agree, Scott....
I hate to say it, but I have no tolerance for Libertarians. It is a philosophy which is simply not practical or practicable.
I actually think we'd have far more luck working with evangelicals than Libertarians. At least evangelicals believe in helping others in theory!
There is a video floating around here about the NV Dem
Convention and a beautiful young woman who identified as both a Bernie supporter and a Libertarian. I would love to have her on this site. Of course I don't agree with her political identification as a libertarian but as a Bernie supporter she was enthusiastic and on point.
We should put people above parties. Start at the point where we agree and then discuss our difference without calling young people like her illogical or several of the other insults I've seen thrown around on this thread.
I think if we went point by point down Bernie's platform and then step by step down the Libertarian Party Platform without making ridiculous statements like "they (libertarians) will leave you bleeding on the side of road," then we might be able to show LP-leaning Bernie supporters how different the two platforms are.
I really hope we at c99 don't become the old-timers who are always bemoaning "what's the matter with kids today." Most of the LP-leaning folks that I know are young and I'm not about to write them off.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
The Great Orange Satan
Has become nearly unreadable with insane babblings like that one. There aren't many Bernie people who still comment, apparently.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
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