If this doesn't scare the
Submitted by stevej on Tue, 05/10/2016 - 5:14pm
Clinton campaign rigid I don't know what will.
Nearly half of the voters in the West Virginia Democratic primary who voted for Bernie Sanders say they would vote for Donald Trump in a general election, according to exit polls reported by CBS News.
According to the poll, 44 percent of Sanders supporters would back the presumptive GOP nominee in November, and 23 percent would support Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton, in that matchup.
Still, 31 percent of those who voted for Sanders say they wouldn't support either candidate in the November election.
If nothing else I think that this shows that the tactic of alienating Sanders supporters was terminally stupid. Wonder if the front page at the great orange ugly will give this one a mention 
Comments
But as we know
Exit polls have no bearing on Clinton's vote totals.
heh
It's good to be queen (of the machine)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
"Welcome
my friend, to the machine." _PF
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck
That was
exactly the tune that was going through my mind when I typed that
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
They have no idea who Sanders supporters even are imo.
They were so busy stealing the election for Hillary, it is all they thought about.
What they don't realize is how different Bernie voters are. They are not partisan Democrats in an ideological fight with the party. They are Independents, first time voters, and disaffected Republicans. Which of these groups feel any loyalty to Democrats, let alone Hillary?
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Exactly
they are stuck in 2008 where there were 2 establishment candidates and a beauty competition - 2016 is not like that at all.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
They have an explanation for everything.
On the GOS, they're saying this is proof R voters are voting in the D primary against Hillary, and this is why we need closed primaries!
I don't often bother answering any of this bullshit, they live in their bubble and nothing gets through. They refuse to admit the '16 election is about anti-establishment feeling by people who have been left behind in the Obama economy, because that goes against everything Hillary is and stands for. So they have to make up explanations that involve traditional campaigning and identity politics.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians. The danger already exists that mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell. -- St. Augustine of Hippo
I saw that
and my head just about exploded. I really couldn't follow that line of logic at all.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Closed primaries would drop voter participation to 20% or less
As the growing ranks of independents who rightfully distrust both major parties find no one worth bothering to vote for at the top of the ticket and at all. Plutocracy in action....
We so need a popular vote and elimination of the Electoral College and that's not gonna happen barring a collapse and a new country (or two or three) and new constitution(s).
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
Yup
presidential election should be a straight individual vote count - no reason at all to make it state based.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
That's exactly
what the Republidems WANT! Both parties want decreased participation by "we the people," pesky proles that we are.
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck
They heard that last night from Chuck Todd and just repeated it
Chuck said they weren't voting for Bernie but against Hillary and cracked the TYT guys up.
There is no GOS logic to follow--only party-sponsored propaganda
if anyone genuinely believes that, well I am sorry, but those who do are fucking delusional. There is no other word.
Don't forget us old-timers!
Hea... There are a ton of us Boomers (on both ends of the timeline) who have admired and stood with Bernie a LONG time - even before he decided to run for Prez. IMNSHO, all this "youth" talk regarding Bernie are attempts to denegrate and discredit his run for Prez because they can push the meme that his backers "don't know any better, being caught up in youthful idealism"... blah, blah, blah.
Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT discounting the youth vote - it elates me to my core to see it! But there were also tons of families crowding those arenas, as well as POC, young and old. And don't forget about us -- we hippies and flower children of a time long passed still heeding the call of the world we envisioned back then. We aren't even NEAR ready to give up that hope!
But if the media were to recognize all those who back Bernie who -aren't- young, well, it would just ruin Hillary's day...!
Absolutely! 68 and a proud
Absolutely! 68 and a proud Bernie or Bust-er. The millennials are a great bunch, for sure, and I don't envy them the world they are inheriting. I'm glad I was young when I was, and not now.
I'm one...
I'm also a Bern or Bust'er...
Right now it is a toss up of whether I vote for Jill Stein or use the force multiplier of voting for Trump...
Yes he's an asshole, but, an unknown asshole vs a known war monger asshole that has Henry Fuckin Kissinger as a close associate...
The decision of whether to use the force multiplier is contingent on the way the rest of the primaries are run, and the attitudes of clintonista's getting under my skin...
It's not looking favorable for Clinton at this point!
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
Speaking for myself . . .
I would definitely say I'm in the group of "partisan Dems" for Sanders. Independents and younger voters are putting him over the top in a lot of races, but he has has a core base of support within the party that accounts for more than half of his vote.
I'm not a life-long Democrat, but I've given time and money to the party going back to 2004. This election I'll probably still vote Dem downballot, but if Sanders isn't at the top of the ticket, I have no idea how I'm voting at the top of the ticket. A lot of us were drawn to the party, as a reaction against the Iraq War. The idea of nominating a candidate who not only voted for the war, but who defended that vote for years and who looks at Kissinger as a mentor, undermines the reason for aligning with the party on national security policy. Clinton's economic policies and her lack of ethics also weigh in the balance.
Polls only count if you like the results
That is the problem, people only look at what they like or think is of value. More work is done to discredit polls then actually to look at them and understand the results. I have done this in the past as well. The goal is to review and look at all the evidence to understand the potential outcome.
Unskewing polls
is now an industry in its own right
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Well, I'm a West Virginian who voted for Bernie today.
Put me down with the 31% of West Virginians who said they wouldn't support either candidate. (Put if it was a life or death choice and I had to vote for one of the two, it would be for Trump.)
"Just call me Hillbilly Dem(exit)."
-H/T to Wavey Davey
That is about where I stand
still deciding between Trump or none of the above. Apart from anything else I don't think the Democratic party can be repaired - to be useful it has to be destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Thanks for doing your bit.
Felt great to vote for Bernie here in Minnesota, way back when (March?).
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
My county went strong for
My county went strong for Bernie!
So long, and thanks for all the fish
I can imagine Hillary's face at this news.
If only we had a photo.
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
heh I wonder who
got the job of telling her. Would not have liked to be in their shoes.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Do they bury people
with their shoes on?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass
(No subject)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Here is an interview with the #BernieOrBust campaign
#BernieorBust Throws Down Gauntlet, Declaring, “Trump is No Worse Than Clinton”
In today’s podcast, we will discuss how the #BernieorBust campaign will shift tactics after Bernie Sanders endorses Hillary Clinton and attempts to circle the wagons by bringing his voters under one big happy Democratic tent.
I haven't listened to it yet. Hopfully tonight. This fellow is associated with TYT network. His interviews are pretty good. He did Jill Stein a few weeks ago. I think Stein, Kshama Sawant, and a few others are cooking something up. I was surprised to learn that Sawant started the #BernieOrBust campaign.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Am really looking
forward to listening to the podcast and am really pleased that post primary planning is happening.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
I can't see Bernie pushing his supporters hard to vote for HRC
I can see him making a tepid endorsement based on keeping Trump out of the White House, but also stating that she has to make her own case to the voters.
So let's save the guy the discomfort of that situation and win this thing. And if not, force the DNC to alienate more than half its current D-trending voters by sitting on the HRC side of the scale en masse and daring us to walk out of the convention. Daring us to "let" Trump win and thinking we would accept any blame for their pre-chosen weak candidate and their fraudulent and undemocratic tactics throughout this primary season.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
I think you're right, 2andfro. I've heard that Warren
will probably give the nomination and so-called 'unity' speech, and that Bernie will speak earlier in the week. (for his sake, or as a courtesy)
Also, one of the CPC leaders, Rep Mike Pocan, will be doing a lot of 'unity' cheer leading.
BTW, Politico reporter Glenn Thrush reported about a month ago, that Clinton campaign staff wants Bernie to campaign for FSC on college campuses (yes, they were that presumptuous, that she would win).
The reality is, IMO, that the Dem Party Leadership could probably make Bernie's life miserable (if not insufferable), if he doesn't do his part to elect FSC.
So, if it does turn out that way, I think that it means that folks will have to continue the movement--sorta like OWS (or similar), for a while.
Of course, all the talking heads could be wrong.
Hopefully, he will win the nomination.
Oh, I did hear Rance Priebus (RNC Chair) talking yesterday with Tim Farley (on XM Radio) about 'how well' he and DWS get along.
If that's true, talk about Kabuki Theatre.
Have a good one!
Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
"The Morning Glory which blooms for a day (sic, an hour) differs not at heart from the Giant Pine, which lives for a thousand years."--Zen Poem
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
The Hill (Capitol, not Clinton) is a strange place
I don't think the powers that be could or would make Bernie's life miserable in any way that's meaningful to him. If he's not the nominee and not the prez, he might see the best use of his talents at this point as working with various groups to coalesce into a viable movement and perhaps new party. Though I'm also doubtful that he would resign before his Senate term is up. He won with an overwhelming vote of confidence from VT voters, who can be an ornery bunch (I lived in VT). He takes commitments seriously.
Hope Warren wouldn't accept a role as peacemaker speechmaker. That would knock her down a few rungs in my estimation. As to the CPC, which Bernie co-founded, many of its members endorsed Hillary. The Clintons are powerful and vengeful.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
I wish he would finish his term,
and then lead his movement (full-time).
I say this, because DFA--I was a member of two chapters--seemed to get off course, and I always thought it was because Jim Dean (not Howard) headed it. Of course, now that I've seen Governor Dean all over the financial channels pooh-poohing Medicare-For-All, I've had to wonder how I was fooled by him.
The one thing that they could conceivably hold over Bernie's head, is the (Senate) Budget Committee appointment. He's ranking member, and would be Chairperson of the Committee, if the Senate were to turn over.
Of course, it might be a blessing (if FSC wins)--imagine having to push through funding for her toxic neoliberal policies!
Mollie
elinkarlsson@WordPress
Visit Us At Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
"I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive."
--Gilda Radner, Comedienne
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
I wish he would launch an independent run...
And if that didn't win start a 2020 campaign the day after the election...
While staying in the senate...
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
I believe that Bernie
will never stop fighting one way or another unless his health prevents him from doing so. Fighting for what is right is in his DNA. I do not see him retiring to a comfortable life. He may leave the Senate after his term is up, but he will just re-direct his life in a different way to fight for the issues he has always fought for.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
great stuff, listened to about half of it so far will finish
it tomorrow. thx for posting!
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
I just finished listening to this
Very interesting and it gives me hope for the future. Both interviewees made similar points from different perspectives, One a black woman who also affiliates with BLM and the other a white straight male. I hope everyone will find time to listen to this.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Excellent (Reply to DKM)
will listen to this later - good to know that post primary plans are happening. I think that the scenario laid out is pretty accurate - Sander's history and all round integrity point in the direction of an attempt at unity. Our job is to make sure it doesn't happen imo.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
It is probably common
I my home town Bernie is wildly popular. Hillary won't score a single vote. The second choice has always been Trump. I will be interested to see what happens in November.
Similar here
my offline lefty friends/acquaintances are split between abstaining and Trump - none are currently planning to vote for Clinton under any circumstances.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
HRC haters are here ? ? ? ?
So the GOD has become a toxic place for those who want to see Senator Sanders as POTUS. OK I get it. But as a back marker here, it appears to me that this place is becoming somewhat toxic for anyone who would prefer a Democrat in office, even if it isn't Bernie, and this gives me pause.
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/05/10/american-idiots-poll-proves-trump...
" " " Trump is leading a revolution of stupid within the Republican Party. The presumptive 2016 nominee represents all of the fear, bigotry, and bias that has been pumped into the Republican Party by conservative media. The Trump supporters are out of touch reality on every level. And "Trump’s supporters are some of the dumbest people in America, and they are one election away from winning the White House" " "
" " "-65% think President Obama is a Muslim, only 13% think he’s a Christian.
-59% think President Obama was not born in the United States, only 23% think that he was.
-24% think Antonin Scalia was murdered, just 42% think he died naturally, another 34% are unsure. " " "
If anyone here thinks Trump is fit to be POTUS and has any qualities that exceed those of Hillary Cinton, you have that right - - and that is the right to join the "Stupidest people in America".
Trump sucks too. Stein is my Number 2 choice.
I refuse to Lesser of evils this election. You have your own opinion on what the right thing to do is, and that's fine.
However, the problem is corporate money and influence in politics, hence why we have 2 morons running for the highest office that shouldn't be within artillery range of the white house.
We spent to many lives last century eradicating Fascists to put any flavor of fascism into office.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
This is the sort of comment I don't expect to see here, where
courtesy prevails:
If anyone here thinks Trump is fit to be POTUS and has any qualities that exceed those of Hillary Clinton, you have that right - - and that is the right to join the "Stupidest people in America". [ital added]
Please keep in mind that this isn't specifically a political or Democratic (party) site. It IS a welcoming and open site, open to a variety of views if they're expressed in a reasonable fashion.
I'm a Boomer woman who's been a registered Democrat for more than 40 years and I would not, under any circumstances, vote for Hillary Clinton. Neither would I vote for Trump. But I can understand why some Sanders supporters--independents or longtime Democrats--might lean toward Trump over Clinton.
If you want to engage those c99ers with civility on why they hold those views, that could be an informative exchange. If your preference is to sling insults, I'm probably not the only member of this site who would suggest it might not be a good fit for that style of expression.
Pax.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." --Jiddu Krishnamurti
Wait a minute...
did you just call members here that disagree with you about the Democratic Party the "Stupidest people in America"? If so you certainly don't understand what this site is about.
It's not Democrats that we have a problem with, it's Dino's like
Hillary and DWS that are bought part and parcel by the Oligarchy that we have a disdain for for the most part I would say.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Voting isn't a zero sum game.
-1 for Hillary isn't the same as +1 for Trump.
prog - weirdo | dog - woof
Ah, and it starts.
You guys ran out of people to kick out over there, so your invasion force is coming here? Bless your heart.
Sanders =\= his supporters.
Sanders =\= his supporters.
Clinton =\= her supporters.
Trump =\= his supporters.
Every candidate has stupid supporters. Every candidate has smart ones. Supporters come in all the flavors of humanity. In no way do I think that Donald Trump is stupid. He may not be a nice person, but then, neither is Hillary Clinton. In many ways, he IS left of Clinton, and it is enough to make a lot of people do a lot of thinking. Vote for whom you wish, but do not condemn those who disagree with you as stupid. This is the mistake the DNC is making, and it may prove fatal.
This is a progressive site
which is not the same thing at all as a Democratic party site. Other than that - what everyone else said.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Well, hell ...
You sure convinced me, Ms./Mr. "boing boing". You should do this for a living (and I have the sneaking suspicion that you just may ...)
evening steve...
here in maryland we have closed primaries and hillary did very well. on the other hand, party affiliation has been going down for years. the number of independents is up close to 60% over the last decade. based on my anecdotal experience of independents in maryland (who make up a bloc large enough to swing an election) hillary is not going to win the independent vote here. when you add a bernieorbust faction, it could be a very tight race here in very blue maryland.
Hi Joe
I am in Indiana which is actually a lot more complex a state than many think. One thing that we as a state seem to be united on is a strong dislike of Clinton. Trump has the edge over Sanders but that gap is much smaller than the one between Clinton and Sanders. I can't speak for the whole rustbelt obviously but the impression I get is that this is not even about policy but rather integrity and Clinton has none. It is not a purity thing at all - we accept that there is nothing wrong with an honest difference of opinion. Clinton though will say one thing to the crowd or person in front of her and something entirely different behind closed doors. This is why she is such a bad candidate.
Short version: She will definitely not win independents here, Sanders may give Trump a run for his money but Clinton will be annihilated.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
I do not even know how to predict Florida
Honestly, I would not be surprised if Trump took Florida. Afterall, Floridiots elected a known crook, Rick Scott to governor, twice. Hillary won the Florida primary big, but it was a closed primary, and early in the primary season. I am not sure that will carry over into the general. The Democratic party in Florida sucks big time. I think that if this race is Clinton versus Trump, Florida could very well go to Trump.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
(No subject)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Hillarites on Twitter are saying it doesn't matter...
Because Bernie won't support "Bernie Or Bust" therefore, I guess, even if he wins, he gives the nomination to Hillary?
Some people can't buy a fifty cent clue with five bucks.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
They probably
struggle to get their partisan little heads around the idea that Bernie or Bust is not actually about Bernie.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
BINGO!
This is because Clinton voters tend to be more wedded to identity politics. Very few over at TOP have been able to cogently articulate her policy positions. Maybe that is because she does not really have solid policy positions. As Jon Stewart said, he does not know what Hillary Clinton really believes. Clinton supporters simply do not understand why Bernie is so popular with his supporters and why we cannot be sheep herded back into the tent. They cannot fathom how the Bernie people are really about his policies and issues because that idea is so foreign to their support of Clinton.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
So here we are
well down the road to a Republican President.
No one who is part of the Democratic Party establishment cares much.
They are millionaires, and will be wealthier at the end of the Trump administration.
In fact, if Secretary Clinton loses the election, it may weaken the Clinton family's hold on the Democratic Party, which would allow many others to try to gain influence. If I am in the party, losing a strongman means I can do and say what I want, and make a play for advancement without having to check with the boss first.
What do you think of this hypothesis? Is it well-founded?
We have to dismantle the way wealth brainwashes us into accepting the values of those who make money off of how we think and behave. Then there will be enough real freedom to act.
Peace and love be with you, reader.
Agree 100%
easy to forget that parties/organizations etc are made up of individuals all looking after their own self interest. Also Dems at the top actually like finishing second - that way they get to keep their donor's happy and tell their voters that they tried their best.
Dems avoid power - the ACA giveaway was evidence of that in action by both the executive and the legislature. Harry Reid's nightmare was not a GOP senate but one where the Dems had a working 60% majority.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Ding! Bing! Zing!
Exactly so. The Democratic party is a scam, and liberals are the ever-ready marks.
“If there is no justice for the people, may there be no peace for the government.”
The Democratic Party is 100%
one of the guardians of neo-liberalism. This is exactly why Clinton will not adopt Bernie's policy stances and also why the party establishment would rather lose with a very flawed neo-liberal than win with Bernie. Bernie is a real threat to neo-liberalism because his election would shift a lot of power back to the people.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
with the WSJ support
Clinton now has a lock on the neos - cons were already in the bag and the libs are now fully behind her (officially as opposed to on a nod and a wink)
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
It's flawless strategic thinking
…if the underlying assumptions accurately describe the political structure you're dismantling. Looking at the political system and the players involved, from the bottom up, your strategy would be a game changer — if indeed both Hillary and Trump emerge from their Party's contested conventions as the nominees. It's simple to explain and simple to execute effectively.
There of course will be consequences, some known and deemed worth the risk, given the empowering benefits. There will also be unintended consequences. There always are.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Trump is a brand
and that brand is white nationalism. A Trump presidency will set back civil rights agendas across the board. He will also get to select Scotus judges that align with the 4 fascists already seated.
I totally get it, Hillary is reprehensible and I am not voting for her either. But voting for Trump is something I could never bring myself to do.
Damage was mostly self-inflicted.
When Clinton said she wanted to shut down the coal industry and "put coal miner out of jobs" at an Ohio town hall a couple months ago, she did a tremendous amount of damage to her prospects in West Virginia. One third of voters in the Dem primary exits indicated that they either worked in the industry or had family who were miners.
Sanders has talked about ending the use of coal, but he doesn't celebrate the destruction of livelihoods attached to the industry. He puts the focus on creating jobs in new industries.
The remark was classic Clinton. Equal parts tone deaf and pandering in a way that wasn't constructive. Her ties to Wall Street are also a problem.
It looks like Sanders could make a race competitive in the state. However, it's been 20 years since Democrats have won the state in a presidential election.
Then she
waltzed into Appalachia and said something to the effect of Yay - coal is great
And the voters saw right through her.
I think the pandering did her more damage than her actual stance on coal.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire