Please Tell Me, Hillary: Do You Support Late-Term Abortion Exceptions for ALL Doomed Pregnancies?

Dear Hillary,

I recently published a diary, [Daily Kos] Hillary Clinton, the Feminist who is Open to Taking Choice out of "Pro-Choice." It tells the story of Taylor Mahaffey, a woman denied modern medical care by doctors who were in tears; their hands were tied by late-term abortion “pregnancy” regulations (as you now call them) in the state of Texas. The article also tells my own story: a woman who discovered after 20 weeks that my fetus would not survive due to severe fetal anomalies. If late-term “pregnancy” regulations had been in effect in my state, I too might have suffered like Taylor, [Daily Kos] a woman forced to continue a doomed pregnancy against her will and against the advice of her doctors. That possibility still haunts me today. I speak out now in an attempt to prevent future women from suffering. How can I live with myself if I do not?

While reading comments in the prior diary, I realized that many voters are not familiar with key aspects of Roe v. Wade. If one is not familiar with one’s rights, they can be taken away relatively easily. I provide some very basic information below.

Hillary, some of your statements at the Fox News Democratic Presidential Town Hall event held on March 7th disturbed me greatly. I have a deeply personal understanding of the impact of the words you said and also the important words you did not say. When pressed by Bret Baier about restrictions on abortion at any stage in a woman’s pregnancy, [Daily Kos] you replied:

I have been on record in favor of a late pregnancy regulation that would have exceptions for the life and health of the mother. — Hillary Clinton, March 7, 2016

These words make me enormously uneasy in two different ways:

  • First, your answer is very different from the classic pro-Choice view that feminists and Democrats have been fighting to defend for literally decades, which is:
    EACH pregnant woman should have the right to choose to have an abortion!

    Choice means choice! What else could it possibly mean? To say one is pro-Choice while being “in favor” of situations where women do not have it … what kind of a fucking choice is that?

    You are in favor of regulation, Hillary? Is this honestly correct? I cannot believe it to be true. The purpose of regulation is to APPROVE and DENY — the purpose of “late pregnancy” regulation is to DENY abortions that are not “approved” by “the state”. The very thought sends chills right down my spine. Republicans want such regulations because their goal is to outlaw as many abortions as they can; Democrats know this. Hillary, why would you help them? Have you been hearing from Democratic women that they too want to outlaw some abortions? Do Democratic women want their choices to be restricted in this way? Because honestly, Hillary, I have not been hearing that at all. I still cannot believe that you — a woman, a longtime Democrat, a feminist who is backed by Gloria Steinem and “[Daily Kos] Planned fucking Parenthood ” [in the words of one of your supporters] — actually hold this view. Yet the undeniable facts are: you made your statement to Bret Baier, you have made similar statements on prior occasions, and you have apparently not retracted any of them.

  • Second, you left out one of the two key players in any pregnancy. We all know that there are two, right? One is the mother, of course. The other one is … the fetus. You did not mention exceptions for the life and health of the fetus. I know that the birth of every healthy baby is a precious miracle, Hillary. Every woman who has ever miscarried learns this lesson in a personal and painful way. My fetus was one of the unlucky ones, who never get a certain sprinkle of magic fairie dust. Instead, something went horribly wrong inside my womb, and my tiny miracle died.

    I believe that thinking about such pregnancies is painful for many people, and so we cope by unconsciously trying to forget they exist. I empathize with this reaction, and even suffer from it myself to some degree. However ... to completely forget about these almost-a-mothers is almost criminal, Hillary. To pass and approve legislation that denies them the medical treatment that their doctors desperately want to proscribe — I think that is nothing less than a sin.

Can you see why your statement makes me uneasy? Leaving out one, tiny little word — the word fetus — makes an enormous difference to women who are already in much pain. It means the difference between humane medical care in their hour of need, and unthinkable, shocking cruelty.

Late term “pregnancy” regulations need to be eliminated, not expanded!

  • HAVE YOU HEARD THE STORY OF TAYLOR MAHAFFEY?
  • YOU KNOW ABOUT ROE V. WADE, RIGHT?
  • ROE V. WADE OPENED THE DOOR TO TRAGIC FORCED BIRTH SCENARIOS
  • PRO-CHOICE? OR PRO-ROE?
  • STEADFAST CHAMPION? EXPAND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS?

HAVE YOU HEARD THE STORY OF TAYLOR MAHAFFEY?

Taylor Mahaffey seems to be a nice woman whose only apparent “crime” was wanting to become a mother. When she learned that her 20 week old baby would not survive, her heart was broken. Can you imagine the emotional pain? She had been “expecting” for months, brimming with joy and hope and sweet dreams for the future, and then suddenly her world came crashing down. When the same thing happened to me, I went through the five stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I have an image seared into my brain of my doctor with a horrified look on her face; it refuses to go away. She advised that I have a D&C, and lucky for me, I lived in a state that allowed me to have one. Thank you so very much, Jesus, for allowing me to have that D&C. I was treated with nothing but kindness, but still cried the entire time. Taylor was not so lucky — she lives in a state where late-term “pregnancy” regulations have been enacted, Texas, and because of those regulations she was DENIED the medical treatment her doctors wanted to give to her:

The doctors and nurses at St. David’s Medical Center in Austin cried with them, but said because of Texas law HB2, they could not help speed Taylor’s labor. Technically, the baby was healthy and the mother was healthy, so to induce labor would be an abortion, and to do it at this stage in the pregnancy would be illegal.

Taylor and her husband were told to go home and wait for nature to take its course, as the saying goes. I go a little bit crazy when trying to imagine what I might have felt if the same instructions had been given to me. That poor woman … that poor, poor woman.

They prayed conflicting prayers: for a miracle that might save him and for an end to their baby’s suffering. Daniel worried his wife would hemorrhage while Taylor could feel the baby struggling inside of her, Daniel said. Taylor declined to speak for this article.

When Taylor started bleeding, they went back to the hospital, but with Fox’s heart still beating, doctors couldn’t legally interfere.

“Eventually she was just screaming at them to get the child out of her,” Daniel said.

Can you even imagine what she went through, Hillary? And can you tell me why? Why on earth was she forced by law … in America, in the twenty-first century … to be treated in this way? It could have been me, Hillary. It fucking could have been me.

The undeniable truth is that late-term “pregnancy” regulations enacted by politicians were responsible for the excruciating ordeal forced upon her.

Those regulations neglected to include sufficient exceptions for the life and health of the fetus, and the lack of those exceptions condemned Taylor.

Not for a moment do I think that anyone involved with these regulations hoped or intended for any woman to suffer as Taylor did. These people are merely flawed human beings, as we all are, who did not anticipate the results of their actions. Human beings make mistakes.

Nevertheless, these politicians are directly responsible for what happened to Taylor: she was denied humane medical care because of the late-term “pregnancy” regulations they enacted.

Late term “pregnancy” regulations need to be eliminated, not expanded!

YOU KNOW ABOUT ROE V. WADE, RIGHT?

I believe you must have studied Roe v. Wade very carefully, Hillary. I’m sure you know exactly what it says and what it doesn’t say. How could you not? How could you, and Planned Parenthood, and NARAL, not know the exact limits of Roe?

Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. It was decided simultaneously with a companion case, Doe v. Bolton. The Court ruled 7–2 that a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that this right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting women's health and protecting the potentiality of human life.[1] Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the third trimester of pregnancy.

Roe says there are two interests:

  1. the life and health of the mother and
  2. the life and health of the fetus (“the potentiality of human life.”)

Re the life and health of the mother — things seem pretty clear. Roe says that mothers have rights.

  • Roe says exceptions for the life and health of the mother must be provided.

Re the life and health of the fetus — things are not clear. Roe is silent.

  • Roe essentially says exceptions for the life and health of the fetus are not required (because of the simple fact that such exceptions are not even discussed).

Hillary, I have been looking at statements you have made over the years. In some ways your views have been extremely consistent:

  • Exceptions for the life and health of the mother are always provided
  • Exceptions for the life and health of the fetus are never mentioned
  • You believe that states should have the right to regulate and limit abortions

When I compare these parts of your statements to Roe, the similarity is uncanny. However, In some ways your views appear to have evolved over time:

  • You no longer support parental consent requirements, as you did in 1996.
  • Your language has softened and become more vague over time. For example, are both of the following statements equivalent? I’m not sure.
    • As late as 2000 you said:
      I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions ...
    • In March 2016, your words were:
      I have been on record in favor of a late pregnancy regulation ...

What does that last statement actually mean? In the past you have been on record for waiting periods, and also never mentioned exceptions for the life and health of the fetus. Should I assume that is your current view today? I don’t want to ASSUME, I want to KNOW ...

Hillary, Do You Support Exceptions for the Life and Health of the Fetus?
Apr 25, 1996 States should have the right to regulate and limit abortions. At the very least, parental consent or notification should be required before abortions are performed on minors; states should be allowed to impose waiting periods; and late-term abortions should be prohibited except to save the life of the mother.” — Hillary Clinton

- Source: Agenda For America, by Haley Barbour, p.16
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm

Oct 8, 2000 LAZIO: “I had a pro-choice record in the House, and I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I support a ban on partial-birth abortions. Senator Moynihan called it “infanticide.” Even former mayor Ed Koch agreed that this was too extreme a procedure. This is an area where I disagree with my opponent. My opponent opposes a ban on partial-birth abortions.

CLINTON: “My opponent is wrong. I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice.

- Source: Senate debate in Manhattan
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm

Mar 7, 2016 I have been on record in favor of a late pregnancy regulation that would have exceptions for the life and health of the mother. — Hillary Clinton
Mar 11, 2016 Politicians should not interfere with a woman's personal medical decisions, which should be left to a woman in consultation with her doctor.
“[Clinton] also recognizes that Roe v. Wade provides that restrictions are constitutional later in pregnancy so long as there are clear exceptions for the life and health of the woman.”

- Clinton campaign spokesperson when asked by Mother Jones to clarify remarks from March 7.

As I see it, by being open to late term “pregnancy” regulations, you may be trying to position yourself to conservative voters as a different, more “reasonable” kind of Democrat; one who is willing to compromise on matters that are important to both sides. However, by positioning yourself in this way, you also appear to be willing to sacrifice women like Taylor and me as some kind of disposable bargaining chips in order to win the presidency. As a woman yourself, how can you be willing to do this, Hillary? What if Chelsea was in need of a late-term abortion, and was denied one by the state as Taylor Mahaffey was? Would you still be in favor of “pregnancy” regulations, or would you condemn them as the vile political ploy they actually are?

ROE V. WADE OPENED THE DOOR TO TRAGIC FORCED BIRTH SCENARIOS

Roe says the state can pass late-term regulations to “protect” the fetus, which on its face seems reasonable. Forced birthers have been trying to exploit this provision by spreading false, horrible propaganda that is purposely designed to inflame the passions of those who hear it — worse yet, their lies seem to be leaving a mark. Visions of slut-women dance in our heads: irresponsible beings who would callously murder innocent babies rather than suffer any consequences for their loose-woman ways. For example, listen to what Marco Rubio said at the Republican debate on Feb. 6, 2016:

Here’s what I find outrageous. There has been five Democratic debates. The media has not asked them a single question on abortion and on abortion, the Democrats are extremists. Why doesn’t the media ask Hillary Clinton why she believes that all abortion should be legal, even on the due date of that unborn child.

Has anyone ever met a woman such as Rubio describes, someone who waddles up to the hospital on their due date and tells the doctors she is ready for her abortion now? Of course not, the idea is ludicrous. One reason why these false notions persist is that the real women who have had these medical procedures avoid talking about them because of the painful memories. The silence that comes directly out of our grief makes us perfect scapegoats. We are falsely painted as monsters by ruthless politicians who have discovered there are large political rewards to be reaped by demonizing us.

Perhaps many do not realize it, but Roe opened the door to scenarios that the justices who decided it may not have envisioned:

  • Women in (heavily forced birther) states can be forced to carry a doomed pregnancy, because state politicians have collectively agreed that such actions are smiled upon by God.

    Let’s call this the God Is Great Scenario.

    There are many in this country who believe abortion is wrong in all cases, even in the case of rape and incest, and even when a child has severe birth defects. Consider this story from the forced birther community: Baby Marley Born With Anencephaly Gives Hope to Others. Visit the wiki page for Anencephaly to see examples of other “imperfect” babies, who survive days at most after birth. But I warn you, the images are disturbing.

  • Women in some states can be forced to carry a doomed pregnancy because legislation is badly written in a couple of different ways:
    1. Perhaps politicians simply did not realize that the life and the health of the fetus was something that needed to be addressed in the bill, and thus exceptions have not been provided. Oops.

      Let’s call this the Dumb and Dumber Scenario.

    2. The life and the health of the fetus may have been considered, however certain medical situations were not anticipated and thus exceptions have not been provided for them.

      Let’s call this the Close But No Cigar Scenario.

      Or maybe the Taylor, Please Accept Our Humble Apologies Scenario.

What I have seen is that even “well-intentioned” late-term “pregnancy” regulations have the tendency to fall into the Close But No Cigar Scenario — politicians and voters simply do not understand the true consequences of the bills.

Which is not at all surprising because … Politicians are not trained doctors! They don’t have a license to practice medicine! The likelihood that they will pass “good” legislation that makes exceptions for all possible medical scenarios is extremely low.

On the other hand, doctors take the Hippocratic Oath to uphold ethical standards and provide appropriate medical care to all of their patients. No respectable doctor would be an accomplice to infanticide if a baby is viable; they would induce labor instead. Roe v. Wade does not require doctors to comply with murderous requests from their patients.

Late-term “pregnancy” regulations are actually a tremendous insult toward those in the medical profession:

  • Regulations take medical decisions out of the hands of trained doctors, and
  • Regulations force trained doctors to take actions other than ones they deem to be medically appropriate.

Politicians should not be allowed to “play doctor” with the LIVES of WOMEN in this way.

Why can’t we just let doctors be doctors, so they can give each and every patient the appropriate care that they need? Not only is that the BEST solution, it is also the EASIEST solution.

Being open to late-term “pregnancy” regulations is almost like lifting the lid of Pandora’s box: we cannot comprehend all the evils that will come rushing out once the box is opened.

Isn’t it better to simply keep the box closed, which has always been the official Democratic party position? If we never create “pregnancy” regulations, we can be 100% certain that we won’t create FLAWED “pregnancy” regulations that make innocent women suffer in the way that Taylor did.

PRO-CHOICE? OR PRO-ROE?

Hillary, you appear to be playing around with the definition of the word pro-Choice. Your stance is simply not the same as the one that has been used as a litmus test by feminists for — I don’t know, forever? — when giving their support to political candidates. Litmus test, as in: a feminist will not give a vote to any politician that does not believe that women have the right to make this choice for themselves.

Pro-Choice verbiage has been a plank in the Democratic National Platform for years, including the latest one from 2012:

Abortion is an intensely personal decision between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her clergy; there is no place for politicians or government to get in the way.

Merriam-Webster defines pro-Choice this way:

Simple Definition “believing that pregnant women should have the right to choose to have an abortion”
Full Definition “favoring the legalization of abortion”

In the past, the meaning of pro-Choice has always been very clear:

Pro-Choice means that the woman has the right to choose.

Hillary, based on your willingness to impose late term restrictions as allowed by Roe v. Wade, I think your position would more aptly be called pro-Roe — which is something very different:

Pro-Roe means that late-term abortions can be denied by the state, provided there are
exceptions for the life and health of the mother
( exceptions for the life and health of the fetus are left completely up to each state )

Roe is silent regarding doomed pregnancy, so your pro-Roe position terrifies me.

  1. Roe does not require States to provide exceptions for the life and health of the fetus.
  2. You are also silent on doomed pregnancy. Please tell me: where do you stand?
The regulations that damned Taylor to barbaric torture are actually pro-Roe
  • Taylor’s life and health was never at risk.
    • It was only the life of her fetus that was at risk
  • My life and health were also never at risk.
    • It was only the life and the health of my fetus that were at risk

The bottom line: pro-Roe is a STEP BACKWARD from pro-Choice.

Pro-Roe puts women like Taylor and me at the mercy of state politicians, who can accidentally or intentionally write laws that force us to carry doomed pregnancies against our will.

Pro-Choice protects women like Taylor and me: it protects our right to choose what is best for us.

Hillary Clinton: I Could Compromise on Abortion If It Included Exceptions For Mother's Health:

Again, I am where I have been, which is that if there's a way to structure some kind of constitutional restriction that take into account the life of the mother and her health, then I'm open to that. But I have yet to see the Republicans willing to actually do that, and that would be an area, where if they included health, you could see constitutional action. — Hillary Clinton, September 2015

Such a stance makes my blood run cold. You are considered to be a great and mighty feminist, Hillary, yet you are willing to compromise on abortion? WTF? Am I living in some kind of parallel universe? Consider this response, which speaks for me:

I’m totally cool with the idea of compromise … But you know what I’m not cool with? Politicians compromising on issues that have a) already been settled and b) offer no good trade off in return. So when I hear that Hillary Clinton is telling people she’d be willing to compromise on abortion as long as protections for the health of the mother are written into any new legislation, it about makes me want to eat my hat.

You are simply wrong on this issue, Hillary. Don’t compromise on issues that have already been settled! Don’t move the cause of feminism backward! Please don’t play around with what it means to be pro-Choice. Why on earth would you consider doing this? That is one hell of a concession — for what greater cause are you willing to make it?

Choice means choice! Please protect every woman’s right to choose, especially women like me whose only crime is that we want to be mothers. Please don’t sacrifice us in the name of “getting things done.”

STEADFAST CHAMPION? EXPAND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS?

Hillary, when Planned Parenthood Action Fund (PPAF) endorsed you in January, they said:

Let’s be clear — when it comes to issues like birth control, abortion, and access to services at Planned Parenthood, both leading Democratic candidates for president have great records, and would make a great president. In fact, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are both rated 100% on Planned Parenthood Action Fund’s congressional scorecard fortheir perfect voting records on women’s health and rights, and have been strong defenders of Planned Parenthood.

They also said

With so much at stake in this election, we need someone who will do more than just defend reproductive rights — we need a steadfast champion who will fight to expand them, and do so not just when it’s easy, but also when it’s hard.

Hillary, I submit that when you and Bernie Sanders agreed to speak before the Fox News audience in March, you were walking into a bit of a lion’s den. Preaching before the choir is easy. Preaching before lions is not. We all know this. So you and Bernie were both put to a bit of a test that day.

In that setting, Bernie proved himself to be a true and steadfast champion of women’s rights. He told the snarling lions that he firmly stands behind a woman’s right to choose. You on the other hand? Hillary, you wavered. Pema Levy at Mother Jones describes what happened this way:

On one issue in particular, the difference between Sanders' unmistakable stance and Clinton's qualified one is becoming increasingly apparent—and it's an issue that's as close to a litmus test for Democratic voters as any: abortion. [...]

But her stance leaves open the question of whether a woman's right to an abortion would be protected if a fetal abnormality is detected late in her pregnancy that does not threaten her life or health.

Hillary, you have not even become the official Democratic nominee, and already you have demonstrated your willingness to cede ground to forced birthers. And you have done this voluntarily, in other words, “when it’s easy.” WTF will you be willing to cede “when it’s hard”?

Very simply, you are not the “steadfast champion” that Planned Parenthood portrays you to be. Shame on you, and shame on Planned Parenthood for either not understanding your views on this issue, or choosing to overlook them for their own political reasons.

What happened to Taylor could have happened to me. It fucking could have happened to me. I sincerely hope that none of your loyal supporters, or any woman that they love, ever finds themselves in need of a late-term abortion. These procedures are not nearly as much fun as they apparently seem to be, and if they live in a state that denies their request … I pray that heaven helps them, especially when or if modern “feminists” and “Democrats” are unwilling to do so.

READING LIST
[Daily Kos] Hillary Clinton, the Feminist who is Open to Taking Choice out of "Pro-Choice" — Older and Wiser Now
[Daily Kos] All Democrats SHOULD be United - Late Term Abortion Restrictions Trap and Torture Innocent Women — Older and Wiser Now
[Daily Kos] What Bernie Actually Said About Abortion & how his position is significantly more pro-woman — MsGrin
Texas Stillbirth Account — Snopes.com
[Daily Kos] Woman forced to give birth to stillborn in Texas because of 'Women's Health Laws' — Walter Einenkel
[Daily Kos] Mercy Abortions: What Dr. Tiller Did — annrose
[Daily Kos] Mercy Abortions: Let me preach to the choir — annros
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Shrillary will say, do, lie, anything, to get what she wants: First Woman POTUS.

Nothing else matters. Nothing. We've known that for years. Everyone who has ever worked for or near her knows that. Vile person. Nothing is sacred. No values. Only concern is her own political viability.

Just look how she treated Obama in 2008, and what she's said and done to Bernie Sanders now.
She is so desperate, controlling, and with her money and power - now making sure we get President Trump, rather than accept how much better a candidate Bernie Sanders would be.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

FYI, the remark about "Achilles" heel down below was intended for you Caerus. Thank you so much for dropping by.

HRC just cannot become president. She just can't.

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~OaWN

Dhyerwolf's picture

They may have been an occasion or two where Hillary did mention the fetus, but it seems like she overwhelmingly ignores fetus health when talking about acceptable late term abortion scenarios. Not like it matters since pro-choice means no restrictions to me. Anything else is at some point just equivalent to forced birth.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

I'd love to know about them. I've looked, but I always keep seeing "life and health of the mother".

Thank you for your support. It feel really weird to keep talking about it, I don't really want to talk about it, and yet I just get so pissed off by what I see HRC doing, I feel commanded to do something about it.

Exactly. Pro-choice means CHOICE. To spin it into something else ... NO, we just cannot let her do that.

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~OaWN

Dhyerwolf's picture

I thought I saw some quotes posted on TOP recently, but I can't saw in what topic exactly (Hmm, actually, if you previously posted a topic like this on TOP, it probably was there!). I...took them at their word though (links were provided, I didn't click on them, I think I really just went in rec the diary and wanted to see how bad the comment section got). I didn't save the topic or the quotes, but my own (very limited) research into this topic certainly made it seem like any mentions regarding fetus health were very rare.

What's sad is that this is the topic where I think Clinton's natural views align the most with the progressive view and she's still to the right in a notable way (She's more progressive on guns, but like many of her more progressive views, she's been absolutely inconsistent there). There isn't a single topic where I think she has a legitimately good stance (I would be okay with her here if she at least made fetus health an exception).

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I thought I saw some quotes posted on TOP recently

The problem with that is that Hillary says EVERYTHING about one topic. It's never black and white, yes or no with her, it's always a lot of words that could mean anything to any person.

She's a proven liar, so anything she says can never be taken at face value -- unless it's a republican meme she says, and THEN we can believe her.

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unless it's a republican meme she says, and THEN we can believe her.

HRC uses those GOP memes for her own agenda. iow, using the mass distraction to get what she wants while no one is paying close attention to the details that she nuances to death. Just as this post relates, what about fetus viability, HRC?

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Yahoo

Zinman's picture

I prefer to call her a "dissembler", which is to say from my perspective, that she is a person who spins meanings into false statements while trying to avoid the appearance of doing so. If there is a better word to describe what she does far too much of the time, let's take a look at it.

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Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.

a dumb old country boy and in my world the best two words to describe clinton is "fucking liar". Sometimes when I'm really pissed I call her a "motherfucking liar". Technically I know that doesn't make much sense and I too am open for suggestions. My only stipulation is "liar" be used because that's what she is. To call her anything without "liar" in it lets her off the hook.

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Zinman's picture

She is a sorry, worthless, lying piece of shit.

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Be a Friend of the Earth, cherish it and protect it.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

She is actually throwing women under the bus on abortion - geez, if that won't get people to think twice, what will?

Also, let me mention here - my plan is to publish at TOP in an hour or two, after the folks who really matter have had a chance to look at it first Smile

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~OaWN

First of all: thank you for sharing your story.

Second: This is powerful, powerful stuff. Thank you for posting it here. (I will not go back to TOP.) You've framed this issue beautifully. It crystallized something that I've struggled with, the stealth appropriation of rights for the fetus.

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You keep using that word...

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Re "This is powerful, powerful stuff" ... I'm so glad you feel that way. I got a big response to my previous diary, but still, sometimes I feel like most people don't really know what I am talking about, and I worry that I'm not using the right words or arranging them quite the right way.

Can you elaborate more about what you mean by "the stealth appropriation of rights for the fetus." and your concerns?

What do you feel you learned from this diary that is valuable? I'm just trying to better understand what you connected with. Again, I'm so glad you liked it and that you dropped by!

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~OaWN

"unborn child" in her recent attempt at misinformation too.
Don't have the link - but someone sent me a ranting email with it -
I didn't keep it - cuz it made me TOOOOOOO angry....

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elenacarlena's picture

Todd asked her about her stance on the "unborn child," and she responded with "unborn person," but I doubt she would have used that phrase if he had not first. Google Hillary Clinton unborn child or see http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/04/03/chuck_todd_to_hillary_...

Some of what she says is right on, then she walks it back, then she moves forward again.

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

TheOtherMaven's picture

They have no active laws on abortion - and Canadians apparently like it that way.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

I can't seem to get this right. I wrote this comment for you: http://caucus99percent.com/comment/80224#comment-80224

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~OaWN

riverlover's picture

will say she's parsing to pick up maybe-not-so-pro-choice Republicans. Just confuse the pro-life folks a little. She is quite clever with that lawyer-speak. Totally opaque.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

And her fans don't seem to be able to see it. So frustrating ...

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~OaWN

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Laws on abortion are just the intrusive acts of busy-bodies. Seriously. The forced-birthers have looked at Roe, and are trying to exploit certain aspects. All because they want to score political points. It is really despicable.

I honeymooned in Victoria, B.C. It was beautiful. I think Canada is great.

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~OaWN

She and bill were for "safe, legal, and rare" back in the 90s. That is not "women have the right to control their own bodies".

And the NARAL & pp endorsements mean nothing. Not for example when Cecile Richards, the late gov Ann richard's daughter, heads planned parenthood & her daughter Lily somebody works on Hillary's campaign. Oh, and her husband heads up the service workers union.

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because they're friends. It has nothing to do with principles, because it's pretty clear neither of them has any. As Carlin said, it's a club, and you ain't in it. Bernie ain't in it, either. He's one of us. And every time one of the club members opens his mouth, the contempt for the non-members is palpable.

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Twain Disciple

elenacarlena's picture

we would receive sex education, use birth control, and know what we were doing. Rare because single mothers could work at good jobs and support themselves and their offspring. Rare because there had been a sexual revolution and the stigma of pregnancy would end. Not rare because they shut down most of the abortion clinics and made all the effing hospitals busybody Catholic.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

She is very talented at "saying" things she doesn't mean. But you have to catch on in order to see what she is doing.

If you haven't caught on, she seems to be saying all the right things, with all of the right emotions. She's very, very good at it.

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~OaWN

that makes her a professional silver tongue.

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She's got the entire party and a huge gang of millionaires and billionaires moving heaven and earth to get her into office, and she's having a really rough time beating a 74 year old who had zero name recognition this time last year. Not to mention there are masses of POOR PEOPLE willing to shell out what few dollars they have to beat her. I'd say that demonstrates a very bad politician who's an obvious liar.

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Twain Disciple

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Clearly one or two of us have figured out what she's all about.

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~OaWN

Since I'm still furious about stupid, unnecessary things she said in the early nineties ("I could have stayed home and baked cookies," "I'm not here to support undercapitalized entrepreneurs," among others). But her tone deaf boast that "we're going to put a lot of COAL MINERS and coal companies out of business" absolutely floored me. She sounded thrilled at the prospect; she made it personal. There are hard truths these poor people will need to face, but they surely will not vote for someone who's gloating over them. And why did she have to say she'll put "miners" out of business?? Jeez, they aren't even IN business. They're employees. Ugh.

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Twain Disciple

Shockwave's picture

The Clinton's perfected "triangulation". This is one more case.

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The political revolution continues

Older and Wiser Now's picture

She's got personal connections with Cecile Richards family. I'm sure that didn't affect the endorsement at all, eh?

http://caucus99percent.com/comment/80225#comment-80225
"And the NARAL & pp endorsements mean nothing. Not for example when Cecile Richards, the late gov Ann richard's daughter, heads planned parenthood & her daughter Lily somebody works on Hillary's campaign. Oh, and her husband heads up the service workers union."

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~OaWN

mjsmeme's picture

establishment endorsement without the members consent was to make him sound petty and petulant.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

They want to WIN. They really don't want to DISCUSS. They freely bully, mock, and humiliate as a way of silencing those who disagree with them.

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~OaWN

their tongues. Republicans, on the other hand, they can negotiate with because bipartisanship is such a fine thing.

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Twain Disciple

elenacarlena's picture

him. To claim that Ann Richard's daughter and Hill's longtime friend is not "establishment" is absurd. Every group that polled their members endorsed Bern, every group that did not endorsed Hill. That opened my eyes to a lot of these groups and how they have become part of the power structure they are supposed to fight against. I don't know if the groups wanted to be part of the establishment hoping to increase influence, or the government decided the easiest way was to infiltrate, or if a long time at the top just gives you a 1%er aura. But they're all pretty incestuous up there at the top. I will be much more cautious with donating my money from now on. PP won't get any of it, I can donate to local women's groups. And when I said that at TOP when the PP endorsement was announced, I was kicked out of the prochoice group over there. Que sera, sera. So who's really petty and petulant in their reactions?

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I've belonged and donated to PP for over two decades. They endorsed far too early, when they usually just endorse the final Dem nominee. It was an establishment fix and they were damned for it by their members.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

about their endorsement of HRC? I would be really interested to learn more about that.

I'm so incredibly pissed at them too.

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~OaWN

I always ceded the choice issue to Hillary. I didn't realize she is right wing on this issue as well. Thank you for spelling this out in clear detail and sharing your own story.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

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~OaWN

Hillary has some kind of "moral" issue with abortion. She thinks restrictions on late term abortions are fine, she thinks abortions should be "safe, legal and rare". Why rare? you see, she basically thinks there is something sketchy about abortion. This is really where the whole pro-choice movement fucked up. They let a personal, individual right be defined within the context of morality. The choice movement should have been arguing for free abortions. In fact you should get a tax credit if you have one. If you want to use them as birth control, that is totally fine, encouraged actually. Why not? Its an individual right, so exercise it.

They should have taken a hint from the NRA. They NRA gets it. A right is absolute. Fuck whether guns and gun usage is moral or not. Its how you defend a right . . . you don't give an inch.

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If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.

Older and Wiser Now's picture

Most people see a connection between an abortion and the end of life. It is troubling to think of "innocent" life being extinguished. The line between fetus and baby gets very blurry near the due date. I think many people view abortion at that time as infanticide, and they are troubled. Yes, it is a moral issue. The propaganda spread by the right whips this up to a frenzy.

My own view is that a fetus is potential life, there is something sacred about it. But in the end women must have the choice. And ironically, the visions of "slut-women" that the propaganda brings to mind - that image is very "masculine" to me - I'm trying to say that that image reminds me more of men than women. I've never known a woman who acted that way. There must be some, but I don't think their numbers are large. Ironically, I think that most women would want to bear all children in their womb, they end them regretfully because of life situations that prevent them from carrying. Often the guy is the one who insists on the abortion, over the desires of the woman, because the guy doesn't want to be burdened. I think many woman regretfully know that they need an abortion, for a variety of reasons but basically because they recognize that they cannot support a new child well in their current life situation.

I'm afraid that my distrust of HRC tends to see her moral issue as mostly an attempt to pander to christians on the right rather than a sincere belief on her part.

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~OaWN

I have no problem with infanticide. None of my business. I don't care. I am pro choice.

Recently Hillary declared a fetus an "unborn person". I'm sure this tickled a lot of moralistic sensibilities. You start splitting moralistic hairs, the right to abortion is gone. Choice is gone.

This is harsh. But it's also true.

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If you don't know what you want, you deserve what you get.

elenacarlena's picture

responsible for a woman's morality is that woman. Put Clarence Thomas or Ted Cruz or Mitt Romney or Bill Clinton in charge of my morality? Don't you dare.

Every woman is going to judge her spiritual and religious stances, her ability to bear and deliver and raise a child, her health and the health of the fetus in partnership with her doctor, and so on. Then she will make the right decision for her. To think that some strange guy in the legislature or on the bench will make better decisions for her is ABSURD.

In an ideal world where every person received adequate support and women's wishes were respected, abortion would be rare because women would only get pregnant if they wanted to, and the only abortions would be for health problems. Not by law, but because it's healthier and less trouble not to get pregnant until you are ready.

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Older and Wiser Now's picture

I don't know which is more shocking to me, that 1) HRC is in favor of late-term regulations or that 2) many/most people don't seem to connect the dots and realize that this means that she is not pro-choice.

It's all due to her use/abuse of language.
- Being in favor of a regulation, that doesn't sound so bad.
- Being willing to force a woman to continue a pregnancy against that woman's will - that sound's awful right?
They both mean the same thing.

Open to regulations MEANS open to denying some abortion MEANS forcing some women to continue pregnancy against their will.

I'm not blaming people for not connecting the dots, just expressing frustration that language is used deceptively so that many/most people don't realize what is actually being said. She says outrageous stuff, and gets away with it.

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~OaWN

Meteor Man's picture

so I don't have to. I appreciate your perseverance and tolerance for stupid.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

NonnyO's picture

I told my maternal grandmother's story in one of your posts at TOP, and several others before that. Her death because her body didn't naturally expel a dead six-month fetus, and she ended up carrying it for three months to term, was totally unnecessary. The causes of death listed on her death certificate are gruesome to read, and I know from people who were at her bedside before her death that she endured great emotional anguish.

I support a woman's personal autonomy over her reproductive organs without question, from birth control of her choosing to abortion on demand to emergency abortion to save a woman's life - and/or that of the fetus; I think modern technology can now sometimes catch preeclampsia early enough they can get a viable fetus out of the womb before it dies when a woman develops preeclampsia, if the preeclampsia occurs late enough in the pregnancy, at least. Otherwise, the condition always causes the death of the fetus and the dead fetus needs to be removed to save the life of the woman.

It would be my preference to have ALL laws that presume to control a woman's body like she's a barnyard animal be removed from the books and just leave it up to a woman; it is her body, it is her choice, in consultation with her doctor, what she wants to do. Other countries don't have laws that control female bodies, and they do just fine!

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I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960

Older and Wiser Now's picture

You honor her by telling her story, and we all benefit from knowing the truth of history. There is something especially compelling about having to carry a dead fetus. I do think that perhaps there is more knowledge now that the health of the woman will be compromised by doing so, but perhaps still not enough, I'm not sure.

Pregancy regulations disrespect both women and those in the medical profession. And all so well-intentioned busy-bodies can self-righteously believe they are "saving innocent babies". Sometimes I hate politicians so incredibly much.

Thank you for being part of this diary, NonnyO.

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~OaWN

Slightkc's picture

Once upon a time we had an old saying that we thought was a truism:

You Cannot Legislate Morality

It's too bad the Repubs gave the Evangelicals and the Charismatics the right and the chance to make policy on morality for the rest of us. It's never worked, and it won't work now. But damn, if only we didn't have to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again!

Freedom of Choice for me has warped into a Woman's Right to Receive Proper Medical Care, regardless of WHAT hospital she ends up in. I was one half of a fraternal twin situation. I lived, albeit I weighed only 4lbs when I was born, but my brother wasn't so lucky. Even then, BEFORE Roe v Wade, my mother was given a D&C due to the death of the fetus. It was standard care - not even recognized as an "abortion." This was back in 1956. Just look how far back the Republicans and New Democrats have pushed us women. My niece may grow up with less rights than my mother and grandmother. THIS cannot be allowed to stand! In the 21st century, women should own their own bodies -- including making correctly informed consents for treatment.

If we can manage an entire household and all the hundreds of big and little items that go along with a house, household, debt/credit, and raising kids -- while working one or more jobs or working as a high level executive at a Fortune 500 company...

If we will now be liable for signing up for a possible draft; if we can go overseas and fight in combat; if we can become Colonels and Generals and lead others into war, then we're damn sure gonna decide the course of our own bodies!

I think it's time for a Reprint and Marketing Campaign for a new "Our Bodies, Ourselves" and make it overtly feminist, as was the original!

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Some folks don't realize that her conservative religious beliefs have seriously inclined her against abortion rights (among other things).
Her time in the Senate had her regularly involved with The Family.

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chuck utzman

TULSI 2020