Rant: So many say you must join teh DP to vote in their primary
OK, that fucking does it.
I will apply the same logic to the general election.
I refuse to join the Democratic Party, and since many want to close their primary off, I wont vote for them in the general either.
See how that works?
DP supporters are becoming as shitty as GOP ones, we don't want your vote in our primary, but we want it in the general.
It doesn't fucking work like that.
You want my vote? You have to earn it, and telling me to go to hell ain't a good start.
Good grief, both parties and their supporters want a closed shop, yet the largest section of the population is now independent. The popularity of their congress-critters is approaching zero rapidly. It's no bloody wonder that they want to reduce this to a battle of the party brainwashed.
I say make voting none of the above countable in the election and if "none of the above" wins new candidates must be chosen. That would make them pay a little bit more attention to the democratic process. I don't like either of your candidates, try again why don't you.
Now if their was campaign finance reform and publicly funded elections then closed primary elections would be acceptable, because there would be more choice than just one of the two miserable parties. In Vermont there is a wider choice and it might just be that this time around if I see a D or an R after their name it will automatically exclude them from my thoughts.
Don't want my vote at any given time, you will never have it every time.
Comments
THANK YOU!
Thank you. I've been saying that for a long time. If you don't want Independents, and all those not registered in the Democratic party voting in your primaries, then why the hell would you expect those same people who had no voice in selecting the nominee of the Democratic party to vote for your nominee in the general election.
The hell with "party unity" - that has nothing to do with it. If you expect me to vote for a candidate I had no voice in selecting, you are dumber Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Hillary Clinton and all your friends then I thought you were - and I've always thought you were very dumb.
Still laughing at the person Obama named Annie Oakley for her pro gun stance in 2008, now suddenly all holier than thou and anti gun in 2016. Beyond convenient. Beyond pandering. Beyond hypocritical. Every word out of her mouth is a lie, compared to what she said about the same subject before.
Will never vote to put a Clinton back in the White House. We speak against dynasty in other countries as being not democratic, what does it say to push a dynasty in the USA.
Which Hillary will they get once their primary is done
My bet is the one that pretty much everyone but the party elite dislikes the most
Well, it should be good times for anyone and everyone
standing near the Money Funnel. The Military Industrial Complex, National Security, International Commerce and Banking -- there will be a lot of people ready to stand under the green rain.
Less good for the rest of use, I should think.
Which one?
There is only one. The one that is a fraud and a panderer who will say and do anything to get what she feels entitled to.
lies
No "compared" about it, as what she said before was all lies too.
"Which Hillary" will we get if she actually gets elected to the Presidency? Not even Cat Herself knows!
(Does HRC herself even know? I'm beginning to have my doubts!)
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
That's the problem with Pathological Liars...
They start believing their own lies...
Look at the evolution of the Bosnia Snipery Tale...
I'll bet that if someone in her presence started talking about riding in an aircraft taking evasive maneuvers to avoid being shot down it would be enough to launch her into her story...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx3wrfhQaqk]
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
Yep,
Yep,
Anti gun in the United States only
But sold billions and billions in weapon sales to countries that have horrible human rights violations.
And then took millions from them by way of her foundation that only helps their rich friends get nice juicy contracts and get richer.
The charity navigator doesn't think very highly of it.
In Haiti, any person who wanted in on the reconstruction had to go through both her foundation and the state department first.
The thought of them being back in the White House is nauseating.
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Killin furriners don't count
I really don't get this. I
I really don't get this. I always registered Dem JUST so I could vote in Dem primaries. Otherwise, why would I give a fuck? If independents could vote in every primary, then the only people who would ever register for a party would be party functionaries.
Don't get me wrong, I am pissed that independents can't vote in the primaries. But that's really only because I know Bernie would win if they could. Also, in a year like this when parties and the establishment are unpopular, many potential voters aren't in the party, and to me that is unfortunate because Bernie could have used their votes, but they were not registered.
Now, a situation like New York where you would have had to know that you wanted to vote in the Dem primary by last October is ridiculous. It's clear that DWS/DNC and HRC have tried to make it so all the rules and primary calendar benefit Hillary. THAT is what to be pissed about.
I am not saying I like closed primaries, I am just saying that it's not a new thing. That's why I always thought to register Dem so I that could vote for one.
The other idea that we need a new party is ridiculous. With a good plan and follow through we can be like a Tea Party for justice. We can purify the party of corporate Dems and chase them into the GOP or some new astroturf party they start with John McCain and other "moderate" GOPers.
WE the people should own this fucking Dem party. We can build a shadow DNC that supports our candidates in primaries and we will win. Don't run FROM the party. RUN the party for the people.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
As a member of the Dem Party
...do you believe Bernie Sanders was treated the same as HRC ? If not, why not ?
I know my answer. The Dem Party is a clique of richie-riches. It makes themselves feel good to say they are for labor, a clean environment, etc etc, as they discuss issues over wine and hors douvres. But at the end of the show they lean towards the folks with the dough. They are a club - a sorority/fraternity designed for self enrichment and status.
Never have they felt more threatened than when Bernie decided to primary her grace. At first they snickered, then they had their oh shit moment and battened down the hatches and called in all their chits. I don't see how becoming a member of that party will do anything for the issues I value. They are impervious to change - and its a feature not a bug.
I Was A Dem When HRC Was A Goldwater Girl
and I despise what the Clintons, with lots of help, have done to the Democratic Party. I won't let them steal it away from FDR and my grandmother. Enough IS Enough. Hopefully we've given the Clintons enough rope to hang themselves with their lies and deceit.
If someone had told me in 1972 that a Democrat would be trotting out praise from that old war criminal, Henry Fucking Kissinger, I never would have believed them. A Democrat?! Infuriating! Where are their values that they would choose to holiday with HFK? Don't they have real friends?
The Clintons don't have the decency to retire from politics but they need to spend some careful time cleaning up their filthy Clinton Foundation instead of using their colossal machine to take down an ethical dedicated public servant who is more of a Democrat than the two of them put together.
So Follow The Formula For A Divided Party Then...
We can then have our own version of the Tea Party vs Establishment Republicans...
Not exactly the formula for a working government... IMHO
I see that there probably is little chance of progressives becoming a Unified Democratic Party even though the liberal ideology is the dominant ideology in the Democratic Party. The Conservative Establishment rules in an "Apartheid" manner keeping us from power in the party. They are pulling out all the stops to do so...
I believe it is impossible to reform the party, but we are and should try. That failing the establishment of a 3rd major party is the thing to do...
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
One answer may be
Getting your state to get rid of state recorded party affiliation. Makes it far more diffacult to run a closed election
Yes. Why declare affiliation before you know who the
candidate is, it makes no sense.
Our rethug governor vetoed
that very measure in the last legislative session. Of course, because it's a Presidential election year. You'd think she'd want indies to vote for rethugs, but she probably knew they'd skew to dems. I don't feel anything about changing my registration from indie to dem because voting for Bernie in the primary is extremely important to me. My vote is my voice and I intend to be heard.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Great idea -- won't happen.
spelling corrected
A great idea, but it'll never happen. The party elites and the whole class of Party regulars who are likely to run, as well as those who already have run and won, stiffly oppose the idea. So much so that mere voters aren't going to be able to change it.
Example: In Colorado, closed primaries and caucuses are not just a bad idea; they're the law.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Caucuses maybe.
Closed primaries not so much (a bad idea). Everywhere I have seen open jungle primaries, I have seen extremists advantaged. It ain't right. And you can vote in either party's primary in Colorado, regardless how you are registered - there are procedures but they aren't complicated - you just can't vote in both party's primaries, and you shouldn't. I have voted in one Republican primary, though a Democrat. I could have done it more times but I only considered it necessary once. And I have worked the polling places many times, so I do know. When I am not sure - for instance, I am not sure exactly how going to all-mail balloting has affected, among other things, the deadline dates - I will tell you I don't know. As I just did.
Not true... Colorado is a caucus
state for dems, and you have to be registered as a dem some time in advance, or you cannot participate in the caucus process.
dfarrah
That's the way it's done in MN
There is no question asking a voter for political party affiliation on the voter registration card. One gets every piece of dead-tree political postcard solicitation from every candidate in every party (lots of recyclable material), but no political affiliation is asked or listed. Super-easy voting registration, too, up to and including election day (proof of residency to make sure one is in the correct precinct, the different categories to prove residency are listed on the MN SoS web site). Thereafter, if one does not move and votes in the same precinct, one is on the computer printout year after year after year. If one moves, they need to re-register in the new precinct.
We do need to get rid of the caucus system, though. Too confusing and convoluted. Straight primary would be better.
We have a history of close elections, however, so laws are in place on how to deal with the recounts (earliest one I remember was the gubernatorial race in '62; the most famous one was the Franken-Coleman recount in '08, but there was a recount for the Dayton gubernatorial race after that). Toward that end, we have paper ballots and optical scanners; if a recount is necessary, paper ballots make things easier for the hand-count (the counting is done in public, anyone can watch). Everyone is patient about it because we all know the hand count is done with all due and deliberate haste to make sure everything is accurate. By that point, who won does not matter as much as getting an accurate count.
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute ..., where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference. — President John F. Kennedy, Houston, TX, 12 September 1960
Independent
It's not just a designation of party affiliation. It signifies the ability to think critically...or at all.
The parties are making themselves
irrelevant. And they can't do it quick enough!
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
None of the above
Joel Hirschhorn wrote a book back in 06 called "Delusional Democracy", in which he spends some time examining the NOTA idea.
There was a movement in 1976 in Nevada to force a NOTA line on ballots, opposed by both parties, and another in 2000 in California as a ballot measure that would have been non binding, yet still failed.
Activists at the state level need to push for referendums to force the issue. Today's environment seems ripe for this battle.
seems to be an opportune moment
NOTA at least lets you vote rather than sit out
If NOTA wins, you still give the office to the person with the highest total, but they know damn well they don't have a mandate!
Dig within. There lies the wellspring of all good. Ever dig and it will ever flow
Marcus Aurelius
I think of it similarly but a bit less emotionally
Those who favor a closed primary do so because they want Democrats to decide who the Democratic nominee is. Fine. I get that logic. But there is a flip-side to that logic. In an era where the Democratic party is much smaller than Independents, if you select a nominee without consulting Independents then you get whatever you get come election day. If Independents choose not to vote for the candidate the party nominated then the entire fault lies with the party.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Oh noes, its the independents fault, wait and see if Hillary
loses the easiest election to win of all time against Trump it will be our fault not theirs.
If the GOP select someone else it will be too close to call
On that note (from commentary at Naked Capitalism today)
" Notice, also, that the Democrat Establishment never takes responsibility for failure. The Democrat Party can never fail. It can only be failed. Specifically by voters."
Great discussion there today, BTW
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/04/200pm-water-cooler-4222016.html
If they started it would go on for a long time and probably
require a second season
Sure, that's what they will say
I'll just add that to the incomprehensibly huge list of lies and deceptions that they have already said.
Who cares?
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
a cautious strategic maneuver for me
i'm a CA voter. i'm also a NPP (no party preference) permanent absentee voter. the CA Democratic primary is semi-closed. NPP voters can choose a Democratic ballot on election day at the polling station but, for NPP permanent absentee voters, it is a three step process. NPP absentee voters are mailed a postcard to select which party ballot you want for the primary. you send that card back to the voter registrar and they might send you the proper ballot, if they send it at all. with the registration deadline looming in CA i was getting increasingly concerned that i was seeing nothing arriving in my mail to select a party ballot. with all of the registration shenanigans going on i didn't want some county voter registrar lackey to screw up my chance to vote for Sanders in the primary.
i decided to eliminate the last couple of steps in the process by registering with the Democratic party just for this election. that way i get the Democratic ballot directly when i get my absentee ballot. funny, though, after i re-registered with the Democratic party that little postcard to choose the party ballot arrived in my mail the next day. oh well, there was still the issues of my postcard getting back to them and they sending me back the proper ballot. now, i'm just waiting for my new registration card to arrive in the mail.
I vote yes!
As I am not registered to this party maybe my vote shouldn't count.
Open elections?, how silly can you get! We should actually participate, and deny our betters the power to tell us what is good for us?
If I am not careful, I may just be overcome by the vapors!
/snark
The snark tag shouldn't be needed, but just to be on the safe side . . .
Being tech savvy, I am amazed that we haven't gone full-on direct democracy in this country. I have yet to speak with anyone that is happy with the current method to "elect" our representatives.
Back to the Carlin rant:
It's just not that big a club now.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
some still believe they are a part of the party, more fool them
They are a part of the party.
They are the rubes that the DNC Power Machine manipulates to vote for their corrupt candidate.
That is, while not the most noble of roles to play, is the role the party gave them.
And so many seem to find that perfectly acceptable.
This may be the election that the Democratic Party loses me and the greens get my registration not just my vote.
It will be interesting to see the Green party numbers now vs a couple weeks after the Convention.
I bet they may see a bigger spike then they can imagine if we can get a "Self Purging" organized.
They obviously don't want progressives in THEIR party based on all the Anti-Democratic Party Platform positions the rank and file are endorsing by supporting Hillary.
If they cannot even be true to themselves and their supposed agenda why stay? It's obvious now to me that the party leadership (and a significant portion of their remaining base) has zero interest in pursuing a progressive agenda.
The only attention Progressive issues will get will consist of the minimal amount of mostly lip service necessary to obtain our votes.
It always worked before, however there was also never such a clear choice in the Party Primary between a corporatism supporting candidate and one that supports the people.
And they didn't just put their thumb on the scale to tip things to favor the corporate candidate, they used bags of money.
Fuck that shit. If they go and pick a Center Right candidate the party can kiss me goodbye.
They won't see me on their rolls unless there is a progressive candidate in my district or state in a primary that I need to support, and then once my primary vote is cast, back to Green...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
The mind boggles at the Dem party trying desperately
to further dwindle their ranks. Opportune time to form the Peoples Progressive Party (PPP) open to all and swipe as many from the Progressive caucus of Dems as possible to hasten the establishments demise. Trump being elected over Hillary will go a long way in doing just that. Bern it to the ground. It is the only way to rid the body of its acute case of parasitic corruption.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
Of course they want to dwindle their ranks
While holding on tight to the worthless two-party system.
It means fewer and few people deciding who will be serving the liberal shit sandwich that year. It is absolutely in their interest to disgust as many people as possible while then using the mainstream media to engineer a victory by convincing enough people that their oligarch is less bad than the other party's oligarch.
It's much safer and more profitable than democracy.
The Democratic party proves itself more damaging to this country every day. They have one more (fading) chance to put a pro-people candidate in the saddle. Failing that, it's time to kick that shit to the curb.
“If there is no justice for the people, may there be no peace for the government.”
My Oligarch is less odious than yours!
Read this:
The (un)Democratic Primary: Why We Need a New Party of the 99% KSHAMA SAWANT
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
I am definitely not in agreement with this part
"If there are concerns about helping elect a Republican, there is no reason Bernie could not at least run in the 40+ states where it’s absolutely clear the Democratic or Republican candidate will win, while not putting his name on the 5-10 closely contested “swing states.” "
^^This kind of kowtowing to the Ds will absolutely sink any such movement.
You have to sometimes ignore the system to change it
Hillary closing in on nomination with 9% of the vote
I've outlined this before. When you get down to it, by limiting it to Democrats, reducing that number by the ones who actually come out to vote and by reducing it further by eliminating the Bernie voters, you end up with something like 8 or 9% of eligible voters will be nominating Hillary. Great, eh?
Effing wonderful
It's inexcusable thinking.
There are places in this country (more than ever, now) that are so biased towards one party or the other, that the only way for a person to have any say in their local governments is to vote in the primaries of the favored party. It's bad enough that (in most states with open primaries, maybe all) you can't vote separately in different levels of primary. For example, if you're a Dem living in a gerrymandered GOP safe congressional district in a purple state, you can't use your primary vote to simultaneously support moderate GOPer for representative and your preferred Dem for Senate.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I understand your feeling.
We don't like you now but we sure as hell want you to vote for us in November. And throw some cash our way, okay?
As Bernie supporters, we feel that the party structure is treating us that way. But our anger might not be as deep as yours. If that's the case, I don't blame you.
BTW, there was a diary on dkos that said don't throw your money away on Bernie. Save it and give it to the party when Hillary gets the nomination.
I never saw so many versions of "Hell no!" in one place in my life.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Don't throw your monet away on Hillary, she doesn't need petty
cash
Don't throw your money away on Hillary, she doesn't need petty
cash
i will never understand why any person who, for example,
has grandchildren with unpaid college loans would contribute money to help a multi-gazillionaire like Clinton run for office.
Even if:
A. I considered her a decent human being
B. I believed my money weren't going to be wasted on TV ads long after the saturation point of extremely marginal returns.
I wouldn't give her a nickel until she had ponied up 145 million of her own cash -- and not as a "loan", either.
It really is the ultimate grift.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Seeing it as Pepsi and Coke
may help. Two big businesses.
Glad you are posting here.
Yea...
Sugar and Carbonic Acid with natural and artificial flavors and coloring..
I'm sold!
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
More Cowpat and Manure
At Least Cowpatties & Manure...
Have redeeming value as fertilizer...
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon and the White House."
~John F. Kennedy~
Economic: -9.13, Social: -7.28,
For one hot minute...
I considered becoming a Democrat so that I could vote for Bernie here in Oklahoma. But turns out the OK Dems opened their primary to Independents this year. Yay to that.
There's now zero chance I would register as a Democrat for any reason. That stench don't wash off easy.
Edit: OK, not zero chance...should Bernie win, I still could. But more likely even then I'll remain an Independent who cuacuses with the Dems.
I'm Listening
..edited to remove html triggers that ruined the post..
The reason I probably will vote in the General is that the statement I am making is I wont play this brinkmanship game, because the nation's honor and frankly, functionality (such as it is), hang in the balance.
The National Election is really the only time the nation comes together. Together we speak our truth to each other. It is, however, reduced to a near-binary message, almost literally. When the choice is between two candidates, it is literally a binary message.
Actually, though it isn't binary, as you demonstrate. At this point, you can do a number of things in the General this year:
1. You can vote for Bernie Sanders best if he is the candidate
2. You can vote for Hillary Clinton if she wins the nomination, this is the safe message
3. You can write-in favorite name here this is where the PTB present the illusion that you have a choice
4. You can vote for a third-party candidate as a protest vote probably the most sane alternative, unless that candidate is Trump
I suppose this makes me a pragmatist. I agree with crashing the gates. For real. That's why I'm here.
Prince was cool.
My decision
Bernie is a win-win.
DP wants our votes
Unless you can find leaders who want to create a third party entirely of independents, you are powerless to effect change. But even if you do, voters frown upon third parties in the United States and they don't get any traction here. So how about joining the Democratic party and changing it from the inside? Get the D passport, vote YOUR choice in the primaries and caucuses. A good amount of states are closed to independents and that's hurt Bernie, especially in New York. Join, vote for and contribute only to real progressives, and get rid of the corrupt Clintonistas once and for all.
We've already been trying
to change it from the inside for years, and that has obviously not worked.
The dems were rolling for the repubs since Reagan; they were not an opposition party and have not been an opposition party since.
The takeover of the dem party by dinos was planned years ago by the likes of Al From and Bill Clinton. The current leadership kicks progressives to the curb at every electoral level.
The repubs dominate electoral offices across the board because of this group's complete failure. This group needs to be expunged from the dem party. Otherwise, the dem party will keep losing supporters, as it has over these years.
dfarrah
I haven't met a single person who agrees with our
election process
From how the entire thing is about money to how we here on the West Coast are told who the "winner" is before we can cast a vote. From how the electoral college to dangling chads. From closed primaries to changing locations.
None of it makes sense. A united collection of states doing it all differently and as complicated as they can.
There is no voting in America. You think my vote actually counts?? Ha!
Mail in - Drop box - Paper receipts: Count each vote when the election is over - it's as simple as that.
As for the Democrats... fuck them. They are worse than Rapepublicans. They've betrayed us too damn many times to take it again.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
Yep, they want a small number of people choosing who runs,
and for everybody else to shut up and take it. Closed primaries are terribly undemocratic.