The worrying cross-tabs for Clinton against the GOP, and the landslide that might be.
am going to write more about this next week, but I think it is worth noting the national polling. Some will argue that it is irrelevant at this stage — but the leader at this point has won 9 of 11 elections since 1972.
This table compares the Obama 2008 and 2012 margins against averages from the three most recent polls: NBC/Marist, CBS and Fox.
Data from Exit polls, Fox, NBC Marist and CBS.
It will be argued that Clinton is better known, and once the GOP starts attacking Sanders they will take him down. That may be true. But I want to re-direct the discussion.
What the Sanders matchups point to is a possible Democratic landslide of historic proportions. What is important is to identify where these gaps are between Clinton and Sanders, and understand them not in the context of the Clinton and Sanders fight, though the implications of this data for that fight are obvious, but rather as an opportunity.
Sanders outperforms Clinton significantly in the following groups:
1. The young — this isn’t much of a surprise. About 3 points of the 12 point difference between Sanders and Clinton is attributable to their relative appeal. But this may understate the problem: young people just don’t like Clinton. She still wins them against Trump because Trump is incredibly unpopular among the young. But against Cruz she substantially under performs Obama’s 2012 number.
I haven’t much serious analysis from the Clinton campaign on how to fix this. But they need to.
2. Whites — Sanders performance among whites is pretty stunning, whether measured against either Clinton or Obama. in fact, he runs 13 points better than Obama did in 2008 among whites. Clintons numbers here are a little less troubling: against Cruz her margin is better than Obama’s was in 2012. But they still suggest opportunity. Sanders is connecting with downscale whites in a way Clinton is not.
3. Independents — Another factor seen in the primaries. Sanders runs substantially better than Clinton. Here again, though, Clinton’s numbers against Cruz are not greatly different than Obama’s.
4. Men/Women — Here the numbers are fascinating. Sanders actually runs better against both Trump and Cruz among women than men. Moreover Clinton’s numbers against Cruz are about the same as Obama’s were in 2008 and 2012.
Where Clinton under performs against the Obama numbers are among men. She loses by 12 among men while even in ‘12 Obama lost by only 7
But what is focusing on here is the opportunity. Bernie runs about 9 points better than Obama did among men.
The key for Democrats to understand is that the Sanders here point the way to a significant landslide. Understanding the reasons for this gap, and finding a way to close them will benefit everyone.
Comments
it's hard to argue against vaporware
the argument that Bernie will do badly "once the Republicans start in on him" is meaningless. There is no data to back the statement up, only the opinions held by Hillary supporters. "She's been through it" is true but her trust rating is 30%. Is it suddenly going to come up? Nope, it's stuck at 30%.
So we have the reality that she's not well liked versus the possibility, the opinion held by people who prefer the not well liked candidate, that maybe sometime in the future something will happen.
That's impossible to argue because the hypothetical can't be proved or disproved. And the people who believe it will insist it's true....even though it doesn't exist!
It's more than meaningless
Hillary's already gone down the fling shit path. That hasn't worked out very well for her. What on earth would leave anyone to believe that people inclined to support Sanders would accept flung feces from Republicans? My general belief is that if you were ever likely to vote Sanders then you still care about things like truth and honor. Those items are some of his major selling points.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
I love your avatar, SnappleBC.
I've been meaning to tell you for weeks, now.
edited to say love not live.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Aw thanks
It was actually a lot of fun creating it. It started out with an actual image of a finch. Then I pulled it into Adobe Illustrator and turned it into vector art (the original image was small so vectorizing it smoothed out the jaggies). Once I could resize it smoothly it was back into photoshop to map the blue and "swooshes" onto it.
My wife (who is a figurative oil painter -- shameless plug) suggested the stars. If you're into it, go send her some facebook love. (OK, I admit it. I hugely proud of her and plug her every chance I get)
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Your wife's work is beautiful, SnappleBC.
I love art. It's a long story, but suffice it to say I grew up with art in my home, I taught accounting and finance at an art school - so surrounded by art, and I remodeled my home to accommodate my art collection. I've collected all my life and I'm 63. I finally gave some to my son.
Indeed - your avatar truly is a work of art!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
It is difficult
to explain to people that their opinion is not a fact.
This eludes virtually everyone who posted on my thread at DKOS.
But the point I am trying to get people to see is there is AN ENORMOUS win to be had. One that could change the House with it.
A political revolution you might say.
Never say never
If there is a President Sanders, it will be the much needed Democratic wave. Thus the nay-sayer argument that Sanders won't be able to get anything done (but somehow Clinton will???) pretty much fails when Sanders wins.
Cruz will drop
I think Cruz will worse that shown against either once he makes himself better known to the electorate. Cruz is the poster boy for "familiarity breeds contempt".
In Cruz's case, my contempt arrived the first...
... I heard him open his mouth.
I had to gargle for 20 minutes after that.
Even so, the upchuck kept wanting o come back out.
I was again phoned by team Hillary and again by Cruz yesterday. Twice in a few days? Do they really want to talk to me that much? Something is really off in their software if they keep calling mois.
I was as polite as I could be while calling Cruz a demented, bible beating asshole who would destroy all that is good in this nation, and that he poses a clear and present danger to peace, prosperity, and our nation's future.
The Cruz guy just kept reading his script and asking follow up questions. It was as though he didn't hear a word I said. At least the hillarian (a she this time) as polite and willing to talk issues.
Just Hang Up On Them
They get one polite rebuff when they call me on the phone. Then I slam it down. I don't care who it is, no one calls me, for I don't give out my home phone to any political organization. If they have it, then they weren't invited to ever call me and got it without my permission.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
Dem leaders would rather lose with Hillary
than win with Bernie.
Wall Steet owned.
Failed Coronation
Well, it is her turn, after all.
They act as if Bernie has
They act as if Bernie has never faced a Republican attack ad before. They are ridiculous.
The GOP attack
will be 2 weeks of calling Bernie a communist and then when the polls haven't changed they'll huddle together and say"now what?"
Interesting analysis and data. Thnx!
This struck me:
Therein lies the rub. She became entrenched in her "poll the issue before we decide what we stand for" approach under Mark Penn. and why not? He'd raise issues, then give her data. It told her, safely, what position to take. And then there were her focus groups. And then she lost.
Time warp to 2016. Penn has been replaced by Sidney Blumenthal, plus two other hillarians. And at her side always, even watching over her when she naps is her soul sister (some would call that relationship even closer) Huma. Huma controls her schedule, her contacts, and what emails hill had to see personally. She has become her protective cocoon and her alter ego.
In essence, she has rebuilt her bubble and has no opportunity to break out of it. Every major candidate suffers from it, although the smarter ones break out to taste the freedom and reboot the input sources. Hillary is not smart enough to do so. When things go south on her, like hearing boos at the last debate, she burrows ever deeper into her shell.
It is literally impossible for her to recognize that she has a problem, much less one so easily spotted and defined. Oh, sure, some person with some access may convince her that she had a Hispanic problem - which led to her embarrassing "abuela" fiasco. She was told that she had to sport her pro military spine, and her response was, "We came, We conquered, He died, (insert insane cackling laugh here)" there are many other examples of her trying to follow outsiders' fact based, problem defining advice. But she is incapable of doing so with conviction, and worse she has no talent to do it. Even doddering Bill, with his ebbing memories, fading talents, and clearly weakening mind and body, still has more political talent in the tip of his little finger than (thanks, Mr. Bond) she can muster up with all of her efforts, training and practice.
She has a yute problem. Even if that fact breaks though her protective bubble, she is incapable of recognizing it, internalizing it, and acting on it in a productive way. It is just not in her.
And her yute problem is a guy from Brooklyn where yutes love him
I rematches that debate. She was actively booed.
At a democratic debate? Stunning. Taser-worthy, actually.
She really does not get the depth of her problem.
One thing we didn't see at the end was the standing ovation that
she was looking at as she was trying to make her closing points. It was one time that even though she got the last word it was drowned out by what she had to speak over.
Clinton vs Cruz is a stealable election for the GOP
if I'm reading these very informative numbers correctly. Close is all the GOP needs, as we found out in 2000, much to the nation's (and the world's) suffering.
littlevoice