Open Thread - 06-28-24 - Whew, Boy!

I watched the debate so you wouldn't have to. I was going to do a summary write up about it, but after watching it I don't want to sound biased, so I'm not going to make a judgement call on this one.

Except for this:

Watching this debate was like watching two schoolyard bullies pounding their chests about how great they are and daring the other to knock the proverbial chip off of their shoulders.

If you didn't watch it and I don't blame you if you didn't, surely, in the next few days, you all will see clip after clip of this melee, I'll leave it up to you to make your own judgement.

Whew, boy!

Biden-Trump-fight.jpg

For the Music Lovers Out There

The Real Reason Why Music Is Getting Worse by: Rick Beato
12:41

Rick Beato's conclusion: With all of the music down through history accessible with the click of a button on services such as Spotify and others, it has devalued the experience of the listening pleasure.

In my time I would sit and listen to an album with the cover in my hand, reading the liner notes, learning about the artists, absorbing the great album art (not to mention it made a great rolling tray). It was a total experience where I'd do nothing but just listen.

Whereas today, one can quickly click from Mozart to Hendrix, as one goes about every day life with the music in the background, much like muzak, or elevator music. Listening to music has gone from a total immersible experience to just background noise.

And that is why most music sucks today. This dude abides.

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To be honest I wish I hadn't watched the debate, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I will say this though: About three months ago I made the case that the Democrats are setting the table to replace Joe Biden, I think that position has been proven correct. He's out.

I have to pack this morning for a weekend trip to the Texas Hill Country, we're going to see The Derailers at Albert Dance Hall in Albert, Texas. It's a five hour trip so I might be able to be around for a while this morning, otherwise, I'll catch up this evening.

Have fun in the comments and please remember there's laws against elder abuse. LOL!

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11 users have voted.

@JtC I think it was the 2nd best outcome for the Dems.
The best outcome would be if Biden won.
The 2nd best outcome is if Biden does so terrible that the Dems can no longer ignore his age-related mental issues.

The worst outcome would be if Biden did just good enough for the Dems to keep denying reality.

Of course if the Dems don't replace Biden then it will be an obvious reveal that they are playing for next season's draft pick.

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

I only heard about the debate yesterday when Matt Taibbi published his drinking game rules for it; I did not quite realize there was going to be one TODAY (besides, I'm on vacation).

I'd been wondering who they were going to have play moderator, since last year we lost the only person I can think of who'd have been fit for the job:

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

@The Liberal Moonbat
as moderator would have been perfect emphasis on modern American politics, fake and absurd, complete with chairs being thrown and the American public asking for a divorce.

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I am afraid this is the end game of American politics. For 50 years I have heard less and less about how either party will benefit their citizens. When they do accomplish something resembling a benefit to us, it turns perverse, like Obama care, and benefits private capital.

For 50 years the erosion of our way of life has been relentless no matter who is in charge. The real prize is power, and with power those in charge can float above us, exempt from the consequences of their rule. For 50 years the real basis of our politics is what problems the parties won't touch, because it will mean raising taxes. Since we have a homeless problem, a healthcare problem, an education problem, a housing problem....you get the idea.... these problems down where we live preclude going to that source for funds, that well is dry. Neither side will seriously go after wealth. If the dems opt for dumping Biden, It will be for one of the Obamas, or Oprah or some other out of touch rep of the wealthy class.

Biden, Trump are a logical end, much as the inbred mentally ill royalty ruled nations in old Europe, starting wars, playing god. I am afraid that the only way out of this is going to hurt us serfs. The republicans don't care, and the dems don't care enough.

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@Snode
I think the trajectory is dictatorship. With the abdication of much of congresses' powers and the widespread use of executive orders by the president, we're over half way there now.

It was obvious last night why the other third party candidates weren't allowed in the debate, they would have exposed the intellectual shallowness of the two major party candidates.

This is most excellent:

Biden, Trump are a logical end, much as the inbred mentally ill royalty ruled nations in old Europe, starting wars, playing god. I am afraid that the only way out of this is going to hurt us serfs. The republicans don't care, and the dems don't care enough.

Yup.

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@Snode
Except for the homelessness problem. The SCOTUS just ruled that being homeless is a crime, so it's no longer a problem I guess.

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Cassiodorus's picture

-- to hide from the public any notion that anyone else other than Joe Biden could be the Democratic nominee. It's more like a complete forfeiture of imaginative power. Does Newsom want to be President?

Here I must also point to the phenomenal powers of ignorance exhibited by Democrats. They've ignored the past whole year of history, in which Biden foreign policy has exhibited James Buchanan-level incompetence, and even so, displayed memes like this one:

448359991_10221145977513840_6438876438536057766_n.jpg

Given all of the pundit blather about this debate, I'm guessing that they will just refuse to discuss it, and wait until the debates go away amidst the wandering eye of the corporate news media.

Of course, this is a losing strategy, but it doesn't seem as if they really care in that regard either. At the top of their economic pyramid are people who get paid -- and paid well -- regardless of who is President. What's frustrating is that a lot of people who ought to know better are still pretending that the Democratic Party matters. This revealed itself just recently in spades with Jamaal Bowman's defeat in the NY primary, and the whole funereal discussion that you see on Facebook about that event. Sure, Bowman lost because Latimer had a voluminous spigot of AIPAC money at his disposal. But he also lost because he endorsed a far greater recipient of AIPAC money: Joe Biden. And this is what they don't want to recognize: there was nothing there to begin with.

*****

As for music getting worse, this was also something that Cornelius Castoriadis complained of, when he was alive. Castoriadis thought the potential for jazz had been exhausted when Miles Davis died in 1991. My opinion is that I don't really complain about the reduction of music to background noise. The problem with music began with Seventies pop, and accelerated with the rise of U2 through the corporate ranks. U2's only claim to anything is because their only solid album, "The Unforgettable Fire," was produced by Brian Eno, and that was in 1984. And these people play in stadiums. Too many people in declining American culture have gotten into the habit of pretending that completely derivative music matters, when in fact it doesn't.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

@Cassiodorus
sycophants calling for Biden to step down or replaced is deafening. This being the earliest debate in history is now suspect in my eyes, it has clearly shown that Biden can't possibly make it through another term.

The American political soap opera is going to get really weird in the next few months.

In my humble opinion, pop music began its decline with the advent of disco music. Modern music reflects modern society, fake and controlled. Fake by stars who's really cannot perform or sing and are promoted by slick productions, and controlled by auto-tune. I posted a video recently of a parrot that carries holds key better than most contemporary singers.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@JtC @JtC So I went to my favorite liberal's page and looked at the responses. Here is one Facebook response:

Given what's happening with SCOTUS and everything else, it's time to face the facts:
When Democrats and the alt-left had a meltdown over Sanders losing the nomination, their reaction was not to vote or vote for a third party/independent candidate. Ten percent of Sanders supporters even voted for Trump.
We're in this mess now because of these people. It's their fault. Reality check, people:
Stein is a wasted vote.
Cornel West is a wasted vote.
RFK Jr is a wasted vote -- and a waste head.
Libertarian to CPUSA candidates are wasted votes.
Clinton lost because of the actions of selfish, emotionally and mentally stunted alt-lefts whose hubris led them to think Sanders was their god -- and if wasn't going to be in the White House, then screw the country. Their collective actions resulted in throwing fellow Americans under Trump's bus.
Roe v. Wade being overturned is actually their fault.
This morning's SCOTUS ruling on the Grants Pass camping ban is their fault.
I'd even say that the rise of the alt-right extremists emboldened by Trump is their fault.
“We have met the enemy and he is us.”
We were betrayed by other Democrats and the alt-left. This is the mess they created, that some of you created. This is on you.
Don't do it again.
Stay strong. Biden will bounce back. Vote Blue.

And another:

I think women will vote for Mr Biden in droves., to protect their rights and those of their daughters and grand daughters. I think there are many republicans who can’t tolerate Trump but afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation. When people get into the voting booth they will have to seriously consider a convicted felon as President and will not vote for him,

And another:

Well... It was not a good show. But it was just a show. The proof is in the actions not in the talk. Our current president has a speech impediment, he is elderly... he still a better choice than the alternative. I still know where my vote is going to go. I want roe v wade restored and cotified!!!!

There was one response that said: go to Heather Cox Richardson's page.

Here's what's on Heather Cox Richardson's page:

June 27, 2024 (Thursday)
Tonight was the first debate between President Joe Biden and presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, and by far the most striking thing about the debate was the overwhelming focus among pundits immediately afterward about Biden’s appearance and soft, hoarse voice as he rattled off statistics and events. Virtually unmentioned was the fact that Trump lied and rambled incoherently, ignored questions to say whatever he wanted; refused to acknowledge the events of January 6, 2021; and refused to commit to accepting the result of the 2024 presidential election, finally saying he would accept it only if it met his standards for fairness.

Immediately after the debate, there were calls for Biden to drop out of the race, but aside from the fact that the only time a presidential candidate has ever done that—in 1968—it threw the race into utter confusion and the president’s party lost, Biden needed to demonstrate that his mental capacity is strong in order to push back on the Republicans’ insistence that he is incapable of being president. That, he did, thoroughly. Biden began with a weak start but hit his stride as the evening wore on. Indeed, he covered his bases too thoroughly, listing the many accomplishments of his administration in such a hurry that he was sometimes hard to understand.

In contrast, Trump came out strong but faded and became less coherent over time. His entire performance was either lies or rambling non-sequiturs. He lied so incessantly throughout the evening that it took CNN’s fact-checker Daniel Dale almost three minutes, speaking quickly, to get through the list.

Trump said that some Democratic states allow people to execute babies after they’re born and that every legal scholar wanted Roe v. Wade overturned—both fantastical lies. He said that the deficit is at its highest level ever and that the U.S. trade deficit is at its highest ever: both of those things happened during his administration. He lied that there were no terrorist attacks during his presidency; there were many. He said that Biden wants to quadruple people’s taxes—this is “pure fiction,” according to Dale—and lied that his tax cuts paid for themselves; they have, in fact, added trillions of dollars to the national debt.

Dale went on: Trump lied that the U.S. has provided more aid to Ukraine than Europe has when it’s the other way around, and he was off by close to $100 billion when he named the amount the U.S. has provided to Ukraine. He was off by millions when he talked about how many migrants have crossed the border under Biden, and falsely claimed that some of Biden’s policies—like funding historically Black colleges and universities (HBCUs) and reducing the price of insulin to $35 a month—were his own accomplishments.

There is no point in going on, because virtually everything he said was a lie. As Jake Lahut of the Daily Beast recorded, he also was all over the map. “On January 6,” Trump said, “we had a great border.” To explain how he would combat opioid addiction, he veered off into talking points about immigration and said his administration “bought the best dog.” He boasted about acing a cognitive test and that he had just recently won two golf club tournaments without mentioning that they were at his own golf courses. “To do that, you have to be quite smart and you have to be able to hit the ball a long way,” he said. “I can do it.”

As Lahut recorded, Trump said this: “Clean water and air. We had it. We had the H2O best numbers ever, and we were using all forms of energy during my 4 years. Best environmental numbers ever, they gave me the statistic [sic.] before I walked on stage actually.”

Trump also directly accused Biden of his own failings and claimed Biden’s own strengths, saying, for example, that Biden, who has enacted the most sweeping legislation of any president since at least Lyndon Johnson, couldn’t get anything done while he, who accomplished only tax cuts, was more effective. He responded to the calling out of his own criminal convictions by saying that Biden “could be a convicted felon,” and falsely stating: “This man is a criminal.” And, repeatedly, Trump called America a “failing nation” and described it as a hellscape.

It went on and on, and that was the point. This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him.

That’s not ideal, but as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”

A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought.

At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old. At 81, Biden is indeed old, but that does not distinguish him much from Trump, who is 78 and whose inability to answer a question should raise concerns about his mental acuity.

About the effect of tonight’s events, former Republican operative Stuart Stevens warned: “Don't day trade politics. It's a sucker's game. A guy from Queens out on bail bragged about overturning Roe v. Wade, said in public he didn't have sex with a porn star, defended tax cuts for billionaires, defended Jan. 6th. and called America the worst country in the world. That guy isn't going to win this race.”
Trump will clearly have pleased his base tonight, but Stevens is right to urge people to take a longer view. It’s not clear whether Trump or Biden picked up or lost votes; different polls gave the win to each, and it’s far too early to know how that will shake out over time.

Of far more lasting importance than this one night is the clear evidence that stage performance has trumped substance in political coverage in our era. Nine years after Trump launched his first campaign, the media continues to let him call the shots.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

usefewersyllables's picture

@Cassiodorus

of the number of times dems have told me that my Stein votes have been completely selfish, blah, blah, blah, mumble, and accused me of everything up to and including crime against humanity.

I used to try to engage with them. I got tired of that in 2016, and now I just use my usual explanation that ends with “and the horse you rode in on”. The dems have lost this voter on a permanent basis.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Cassiodorus's picture

@usefewersyllables At this point I'm fascinated by the "liberal" interaction with what Sigmund Freud called the "Reality Principle." Do they have any idea of how they look to others?

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

@Cassiodorus if not Biden, who is the anointed one who is waiting in the wings for "their turn"? Hillary v2? Michelle O? The Democratic party is like the so sincere radio host talking about the greatness of the American people who, when the mic is off, belittles the unwashed ungrateful morons. Those brought low by their stupidity and neediness who make up his audience. Just take a stroll in Great Orange Satan land and see.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@Snode "Man's distinguishing trait is not logic but imagination and, more precisely, unbridled imagination, defunctionalized imagination.."

Thus, for them, it's a matter of what can we -- the elites -- say next that will allow the American people to see themselves as great and to see Joe Biden as their champion. The inner "understanding," on the other hand, is that we -- the elites -- rule the little people, we are good, and that's all that matters.

That's what explains all of the nice imaginations coming out of the Democratic Party mouths.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

@Cassiodorus

Does Newsom want to be President?

Yes. Newsome used to be the mayor of San Francisco, so I've watched him for a long time. He's a climber.

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Socialprogressive's picture

It's just more tribal noise and I don't belong to any tribe.

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I'm great at multi-tasking. I can waste time, be unproductive, and procrastinate all at the same time.

@Socialprogressive
if you roam around the internet at all, you'll see it, in dribs and drabs, but it will be there in all of its absurdity.

Beck was a way, way underrated guitarist.

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I'll catch up this evening.

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Bob In Portland's picture

My partner has been watching "Married At First Sight", which, if you haven't seen it, is pretty much what you think.

At one point between episodes we switched to the debate. Biden was mumbling. I couldn't even understand what he was saying.

It's sad, really. A fragile old genocidist (is it a word) versus a mentally ill psychopath. This is what comes from the people who control our parties.

Myself, I'm voting for the guy with the worm in his brain rather him than either of the two "frontrunners". In a sense, this was all predictable. There must have been someone in the ranks of Dems that could have been a better candidate. Buttigieg at least can speak coherently (although I worry about what he was doing in Afghanistan). Maybe Newsom. He's a central Dem. In fact, I think that any full-voiced Dem will do better than Biden.

Otherwise, I'm rooting for the freckle-faced woman and the Ashton Kucher (?) lookalike as the couple I'm rooting for. The guy who's a male model is just too in love with himself. And what has happened to American morals? Guys waiting eight weeks to consummate the marriage because they didn't trust each other. I grew up in the sixties, and people had lots of sex. At least I did.

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Granma's picture

Their 4 year old came into the room and asked what the two grandpas were arguing about.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@Granma 449309061_8213041102059660_8771829107573645731_n.jpg

Krystal Ball: "this was so far beyond what I anticipated." She clearly hasn't taken care of a dementia patient at any time in her 42-year-old life.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

The Liberal Moonbat's picture

...RFKII is making do with what he's allowed to have:
https://x.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1806462171892895808

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In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

enhydra lutris's picture

Have a great weekend

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

This from Michael Tracy. Will Trump make himself a war president. Or actually will Biden start a 1-1 war with Russia to bolster his run? War remains in our future. Could say Trump is lying but he had war mongers in his last admin, and looks to bring them back in.

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Cassiodorus's picture

@MrWebster And then it will be time to remind the so-called "Left" in this country what a great lot of time and opportunities they wasted on Biden and on the people (e.g. Jamaal Bowman) who endorsed him and his projects.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

that Democrats now openly saying Biden needs to step down because he can't debate Trump, or because he can't win the election, are ignoring the fact that Biden is PRESIDENT NOW and should step down NOW because he's incoherent, because can't find words, because he can't think from the start of a sentence to the end of it, because he can't answer questions with correct information, and at the same time, he's in charge of deciding whether to use our nuclear weapons to kill everyone on earth.

https://consortiumnews.com/2024/06/28/caitlin-johnstone-biden-not-runnin...

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Cassiodorus's picture

@Linda Wood -- the one that's coming because the CIA activated ISIS in Dagestan and because the "Ukrainians" directed the US to kill sunbathers on a Sevastopol beach.

Then that memory of Joe Biden's dementia performance will come in quite handy.

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“One of the things I love about the American people is that we can hold many thoughts at once” - Kamala Harris

Chaos, fear and uncertainty will finish tenderizing we hordes of ‘useless eaters’.

Who replaces Biden does not matter.

The fix is in.

I watched the three-way version of the CNN ‘debate’ national disgrace. Kennedy was the youngest but only adult who showed up. He’s the only one of the three I would ever consider voting for, assuming he is on the ballot and still alive come November.

I’m done with Dems, no matter who they switch around to.

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“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024

QMS's picture

@ovals49
.
.
RFK or Stein

will see how things shake out

biden or trump? no way hos'ey

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Until our elections are done in person with paper ballots and counted by hand in front of observers from all interested parties (and on video), I just can't waste a single brain cell on this farce. We now run our elections on computers, particularly for counting, and isn't it odd that we have to wait days for the results, when we used to get them almost immediately and often before the polls closed? Heck, they even did away with exit polls.

Other than being a Bernie delegate in 2016, I have not voted since. I do believe this will be repaired and replaced, and I believe the show that we are now viewing will (and already has to a great extent) reveal the utter corruption and venality of our "elected" representatives and their heretofore anonymous handlers/controllers. This is scripted, it is controlled, and it is long overdue. There will be no civil war, there will be no nuclear war, and a large number of people will be held accountable. Are none of you aware that there are about 500k sealed indictments in the federal court system (Pacer) in all 50 states? Isn't it also odd that certain parties (establishment GOP and DEM) have been pressing for the closure of Gitmo for years, yet the facility has been greatly expanded and has added two more courtrooms, despite 911 occurring 23 years ago. There will be some hardship as our current international financial system based on the US petro dollar collapses, but it needs to collapse since it only benefits the global banking elites and their servants. Enjoy the show.

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@Bring Back Civics I don't know about the sealed indictments. Please tell me more about them.
I agree with all your opinions except civil war. I think states may one day give the finger to DC.
I truly do.
Bernie betrayed and humiliated me. I will never forget.
Always great to "see" you.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

@on the cusp Try this one: https://bad-boys.us/
It's the first link I found with a search, but stuff is afoot. Bernie crushed me as well. I do believe he is compromised with pedo stuff. I believe it will be exposed. Sad, because I support almost all of his stated policies.

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@Bring Back Civics @Bring Back Civics since all his cohorts and friends in the government are thus compromised.
Howe the hell did Biden get where he is with his daughter's accusations? Because Mossad didn't put her in the shower stall?
I wonder what will trigger the unseal?
Thanks for the chart.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

dystopian's picture

Hi all, Hi JtC,

Yeah man, disco was the beginning of the end. Sure there were bright spots here and there since, if you coiuld find them. At first a little bit of electronic processing and experimentation was fun, and fine, and creative. Then a decade later whence disco, it began its journey to become all there was. Corporate monetized music and it went to shit. Formulaic pablum.

The Derailers sound great! Y'all have a great time at the show! Watch for deer at night, and those hill country black pigs. Have fun in the hills!

happy trails all!

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better.
both - Albert Einstein