Does Bernie understand why we are backing him? I think not.
Was watching the clips from Sunday's talk shows and Bernie was insinuating that if he loses he will try and get some of his ideas implemented into the democratic platform for the general election. The first thing I thought was "Bernie doesn't get it". The platform means nothing anymore especially with Hillary at the top of the ticket. Does Bernie remember why OWS existed?? It was because politicians say one thing then do another once they get corrupted by the lobbyists in Washington. To hear Bernie talking about shaping the platform was almost depressing. WTF is he talking about??? There cannot be any compromise of implementing our demands into a platform that is there just to placate the masses while the 1% have their way with the gov't once the election is over. This is not why I'm donating to Bernie's campaign. Fuck it. All hope is lost. Even Bernie is clueless as to the problems he claims he is trying to address.
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And what does that MEAN....
EXACTLY? What is it you want from him, and from us... I sense you are fishing for something here...and I don't think I like it....
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No, not supporting Sanders is not helping Clinton to
win. Don't put that on anybody. I don't support Sanders or the Democratic party and you can't put Clinton on me, that's a game they play elsewhere.
I'm supporting him but that "platform" staement is not
supporting me or himself.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
Well, it is from someone who does support him then
decides not to over some stupid question a journalist asks and which he has to answer somewhat diplomatically right now.
If you are out and have been out... then you can safely be left out of the Hillary equation, if that makes you happy.
I was specifically addressing that to someone who was a Sanders supporter but was concerned about one statement he made.
So what do you support?
"The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
I support freedom and democracy.
I don't support this un-representational political system.
Where do they have that?
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
I have no intention of quitting, but
I do wonder what his Plan B is. I could give a care less about the platform. Total waste of time. How about negotiated percentage o appointments in a Hillary administration for Warren, Stiglitz, Black or any of the people who might enact some change with the help of Congress. Has to be something but hot air, or I walk.
I am not a supporter of third parties including Green. Green is a feel good vote at most. I want to blow up the Clintons and their "New" Democratic party. If I were Bernie at his age, I'd go for broke. That means no endorsement, no deal, no unity. Fuck the Clintons. They're on their own.
Bernie is not the movement, which is a whole other topic, but he is the only voice we have for whatever. I am no more impressed with the so called left than I am able to fly. Maybe, just maybe, people are fed up and ready to do something, but I haven't seen a damn thing in 40 years.
I agree all things in their time and now is not the time to talk about blowing up anything. Does anyone wonder about him flying to Rome days before his campaign? I'm no tactician, so I am going to trust his judgement until we both run out of rope.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Do you think he is evading the issue, dkmich?
I'm thinking he shouldn't be telling everyone what he will do when he loses. Is anyone else?
He is talking about winning, and he is. Despite the dirty tricks being played.
I have to admit, I would like to know what his plans are. I don't believe he will just drop out and leave everyone hangin'. In fact, based on his record, I suspect he has something good in mind.
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
Flying to Rome
MIGHT turn out to be a very good move. I am hoping.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
I'm probably wrong, but I believe it's 10-for-10 w/ Wyoming.
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I was thinking it was
9 out of 10. But I'll take your count
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
Speak for yourself.
This isn't and never has been about 'Let's elect Sanders so he can overthrow the DNC overnight.'
This is a movement for economic equality that started with OWS, and Bernie is just the man currently acting as its leader. If more progressive ideas are adopted into the democratic platform, while not the ideal result, it's still progress towards building a truly progressive party and attaining that goal.
And make no mistake, it's going to be a long fight whether Bernie wins or not.
We will always be at war with
Eastasiaplutocrats. They'll never run out of ammunition. But at least we're starting to fight back."The real power is in the hands of small groups of people and I don't think they have titles. -- Bob Dylan"
But you're saying the goal is to build the democratic
party into a "truly progressive party"? Good luck with that, that's a revolution most will not participate in and certainly isn't something Occupy meant to portray.
We have the majority right now.
We can parley that into defeat or we can leverage it to victory. Even the southern states would not vote the same way now as they did 2 months ago during the Dem primary. Bernie has many followers especially converts in the South who wish they had their vote back. The way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory is to get involved with platform negotiations.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
Who's we?
Far as I know this isn't a Democratic party blog. I agree with you about the platform negotiations. But Sanders has been clear from the beginning what he's about in all this by running with the Democratic party. So this isn't something that should surprise anyone who's been paying attention.
Well then maybe he should drop "political revolution" from
his stump speeches because comprimising with the oligarchy is not what I thought he was about and not what I remember as the definition of "revolution"
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
Revolutons have....
Political Revolutions don't.
Bernie isn't merging with anyone, Bernie is still gonna be Bernie. Doing the right things.
Should he lose he'll be the Senator from Vermont, and more.
Look at this maybe If Bernie loses. . I don't agree with everything there or the slant but it shows Bernie's continued value to us.
Bernie is not giving up or giving in tpe, don't you go giving up, k?. Keep the faith man.
With their hearts they turned to each others heart for refuge
In troubled years that came before the deluge
*Jackson Browne, 1974, Before the Deluge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
If he does not get that nomination
he will surely not be compromising with the oligarchy - it will be the oligarchy that ensures he does NOT get that nomination. At that point in time, the options are either to work to push the Democrats back to the party that they once actually were, or to take his supporters and go home. I, for one, highly doubt his supporters simply go home. But to not even try to get something into a platform of the person who damned well might become POTUS under the Democratic banner? Well, that would be letting all of us down a lot harder than at least trying to force them to the table. And forcing them to even discuss the things he's forced them to take on? Well, that is revolutionary in a country with a captured media that feeds an endless stream of propaganda to an audience that's been trained for decades to swallow their lies without question.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
This is a really good point, Lizzy!
I don't think people quite appreciate how revolutionary it is that economic inequality is even being discussed in the national forum at all. Or that states are passing $15 minimum wages. Or that we are actually discussing free education, FFS! The powers that be would much rather non of that was even mentioned.
Unfortunately, this isn't going to be over even if Bernie wins, so everyone might as well get used to that idea. The fight continues either way - but for the first time in a LONG time, things are happening, and they are happening everywhere in the country, over and over. Its been slow to gain steam, but its not going away.
If the PTB were smart, they'd give us our candidate and let us implement a little bit higher taxes on the rich and corporations - to help even the score, you know, throw us a bone, and keep the vast majority of their influence intact. But unfortunately for them, they are too arrogant to do so, and so they will eventually lose their power.
You do know he's running as a Democrat
because in America as it is now you can't run as a third party and be a viable candidate? Look at how the media still tries not to cover him, imagine if he was a third-party candidate. So, I don't think its really fair to tar him with the DNC brush. Obviously, some of us don't agree that progress within the DNC is worse than no progress at all.
I'd much rather we had a third party, but right now, Sanders running as a Democratic Socialist would go absolutely nowhere.
The coming political revolution(s)
Should Bernie fail to win the Democratic nomination, perhaps regardless who wins the Republican nomination, this primary season has shone bright lights on the fragile coalitions that have constituted our political parties.
If Mrs. Clinton prevails in the primaries she'll be elected. My congratulations to all the voters who've been longing for a female president.
The Republican Party is broken, Trump has exposed many of the major fault lines. Bernie has exposed many of the Democratic Party's fault lines as well. We've got a major realignment coming.
Many of us who support Bernie's message won't be around for the Democratic Party to kick around anymore. If I have to vote for a woman in November, I'm with Jill. Many longtime Republicans will be with Hillary. The extremist fringe of the Republican Party, aka the Tea Party, will fade into electoral irrelevance as the big money openly recognizes "who's their Mama."
Whether or not we on the Left gain electoral relevance depends, as so many here regularly say, on whether or not the message gets through to any sort of critical mass with the electorate. That's our job!
Preaching to the choir gets us to sing, but we've got other, more important, uses for our time and energy.
Let's!
What do you suggest then?
The way I see it, if the end goal is economic equality via the proliferation of progressive values, we have a few options. We can leverage the Democratic party into embracing progressive policies again. We can attempt to push one of the existing progressive third parties (Green?) into relevance. We can CREATE a new progressive third party, and then try to make it relevant.
Or we could just say screw it all and burn the country down in the literal, violent revolution manner. I'd prefer to leave the last one as a last resort, personally.
It doesn't have to be either/or
Bernie can walk & chew gum at the same time - so can we. And hopefully, all the parts can start to build on each other.
This RIGHT HERE
is what I think this poster is pushing us to say...that if Bernie loses there will be violence...This is, IMO malicious trolling and incitement... despicable and dangerous.
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The #BernieorBust people
Think the Green Party will experience a huge wave if Bernie doesn't win.
I'm pretty sure I agree, but need to do some more research about it.
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
I respectfully disagree,
I think Senator Sanders knows perfectly well why we support him, the issues and not to mention his entire career of exhibiting both personal and professional integrity and being right on most issues, before they became issues.
Whether Senator Sanders makes the nomination or wins the presidency, this Revolution MUST continue, and I believe Senator Sanders understands that as well.
I'm all in, no matter what! GO Bernie, Viva The Revolution!
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Bernie or Bust!
Sanders is a politician
He knows how to play the game, and to give himself the best chance of winning he pretty much has to play the game. Suppose Bernie said that in good conscience he couldn't support Clinton if she ends up being the nominee. How would that play out? Not well at all, I'm quite sure. He'd be accused of being disloyal, as well as a sore loser. Further evidence of him not being a real Democrat, and of lacking any commitment to helping advance the interests of the Democratic Party. And besides, he has already stated on multiple occasions that he will support Clinton if she's the nominee. And I think he was wise to do so, because the mainstream pundits and party operatives would have beat him over the head with that relentlessly if he had not.
So exactly what is left if as a practical matter he cannot now disavow his previous pledge to support Clinton? Well, he can hopefully wring some concessions out of her and the party leadership in terms of the party's stated agenda. And I totally agree that's not worth a hell of a lot. Presidential nominees routinely ignore commitments made in the convention platform when it suits their purpose. So when and if Clinton wraps up the nomination, the amount of leverage Bernie Sanders has will be reduced to zero.
But Sanders followers are another story. Just because Bernie Sanders elects to support Hillary Clinton doesn't mean I have to. Personally, I think it's a huge mistake for any self-identified progressive to support a candidate who throughout her career has actively and energetically worked to promote and implement policies that are not only morally repugnant but incredibly harmful and damaging to the interests of all but a powerful and rapacious few. The "lesser evil" voting stratagem has been embraced repeatedly by the putative Left, and it has clearly been an epic Fail. Given that right-wing, corporate Democrats like the Clintons and Obama have been able to take the votes of the progressive / populist wing of the party for granted, there has been nothing to discourage or dissuade them from moving ever further to the right. Which of course has meant that in order to be able to continue to make a meaningful distinction, the Republican Party has moved even that much further to the extreme right fringe of the ideological spectrum.
So essentially what we have today is a party of the right - except on a few social issues that happily don't affect its patrons' bottom line - and a party of the far right, whose extremist ideology makes even conservative icons of the past like Goldwater and Reagan look like mushy moderates. And as I see it, this is very much a byproduct of the inability of most progressive-minded voters unwillingness to offer anything less than unqualified support for Democratic candidates, even right-wing, corporate sell-out ones like Hillary Clinton. Not the only factor, certainly, but a significant one.
So the bottom line is this: While Bernie Sanders may indeed not have any real option other than to support a Hillary Clinton candidacy, his supporters are under no such obligation, and it is manifestly in their best interest to refuse to do so. Bernie or Bust is not just a moral choice, but a practical one.
inactive account
Then say nothing. Something like "I'm not going to lose"
or I'll address that when we get there.........anything but "well, we'll merge our ideas with the oligarchy"
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
a comment posted as an essay.....
...... answered by an essay posted as a comment! Wow, what a concept!
(A well thought out and substantial Comment indeed, mouselander!)
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
If this is all we get
If Bernie doesn't get the nomination, then we have to have a well-written, well-publicized platform. It may be the only tool for we the people to hold HRC accountable and transparent Ethics, morality, rules, nothing matters to her. But if we Bernie supporters have been made certain promises, we can mobilize when they are broken. It's not really a plan, but may do some slight good in the wasteland of years until 2020.
But this won't happen because I am going back to phonebanking right now.
the sad joke that is the 2008 Democratic platform
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=78283
it talks about Republican failures that were never addressed once Obama won. As we all know, he's made it worse.
Here's a nice link that talks about items that were either ignored or abandoned.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/09/broken-democratic-platform-promis...
the point being that if Bernie doesn't get the nomination and if he wants things put into the platform, you can be sure that Hillary, should she win, will not bother with them and if a Republican should win Bernie's ideas will be blamed.
3rd time in the past few weeks that my alarm bell went off and
I'm hoping that the posters whose remarks set it off will please understand that provocative questions are okay. its being provocative for the sake of being provocative was f'd up @TOP and IMHO has no place here.
(No subject)
troll or no troll
it is a conversation that needs to be had. Maybe not today, after the convention.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
So true
we also need a plan B because I want us to be part of entire movement.
Besides it is cool to have trolls because guess what that means you have arrived
It is a conversation that is needed, but
the person who started this conversation does not want to do anything other than to stir the pot. This person reminds me of a certain anna shane over at TOP. He or she simply argues the same inane points back and forth without providing any substantive response, exactly like the comment that he or she posted here as an essay. There is no real purpose for it other than to sow seeds of doubt or to cause trouble. This person is not participating here in good faith.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I agree GG....
methinks this poster is fishing for us to say something that could be used against Sanders... and us. I think this is dangerous trolling... trying to get some of us to advocate for violent revolution.
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A Riddle...
Lots of people pass under them.
Some people live under them.
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Trip, trop, trip, trop...
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Oh, please.
Bernie has run the most spectacular, well-funded, populist campaign in decades. He is the most liberal candidate available, and he is a good, smart, honest man. And you are freaking out over one interview in which he suggests getting his agenda on the party platform IF he loses. Get yourself some Dr. Scholl's and start gellin', man. Bernie's got this. And, in the event you are a troll, pass that message on to your friends at the DNC.
Good responce to OP
I actually took heart last week when Bernie responded to Hillary's suggestion that he is unqualified. He listed some of her most egregious past behaviors and kept repeating "then SHE is not qualified". I was heartened by this because it gives him a sincere and moral reason to NOT support her if she gets the nom. Please note: I have no idea what he will do if she wins the nom.
What I will do is NOT vote for Clinton, under any circumstances. Have been looking into the crazy convoluted ballot laws for the 50 states; I believe the deadlines for registering to be on the Nov. ballot are June 30 for IL and IN, too early to know the results of the convention, with most others being July and August. Cliff-hanger dates for lots of states: July 31 (convention ends July 28). Having participated in the recall Walker petitions, I don't doubt we could get Bernie on the ballot in the states with Aug deadlines, but it would be pretty much impossible in others. And that assumes Bernie would even allow his name to be placed in nomination by a true groudswell of popular demand.
So yeah, I focus now on phonebanking and donating and talking him up with everyone I encounter. Like someone said above, we should not "borrow trouble". But I am forming my own Plan B--I will write him in if he is not on the ballot in Wisconsin (as either the Dem nominee or as an Independent nominee). And I will do that regardless of what Bernie himself opts to do. As many have pointed out, he is both honest and a brilliant tactician. If he decides to throw his support to Clinton, I'll be surprised and disappointed, but I won't feel offended by what he does, as the OP appears to be. I trust him to do what he thinks best, and trust myself to do the same. If the only option re:the election is giving the finger to both Trump/whomever and Clinton, that is what I will do. I think that is more important the staying home/not voting.
I do feel the Dem party is beyond reforming and would like to see us start fresh...kinda like this here lifeboat for all who bailed from Kos
Of course, YMMV, folks!
Shaylors Provence
This is an unfortunate thread.
The author is blameless. And sane. His questions are important.
His only misstep is that his cynicism is just a tad underdeveloped. That, and he isn't as gifted as most with the art of denial.
I see nothing alarming about the post. But I am saddened by the scolding answers. The pushback. The paranoia. Did the author really take something away from you or make you feel doubt? I saw it as an opportunity to adapt to an important reality (as did a few others) that should be written down and revisited frequently.
It must be stated and accepted that there is no leader. There can never be a leader. The 200 year-old quest for a leader is America's greatest flaw. It has infantilized the American people into the helpless state that they find themselves. A Sovereign People may look for visionaries and visions to share and shape the future. But they don't look for leaders to rule them — or even guide them. The people must rule themselves and build a new system along side the corrupt one.
Bernie is showing Americans how to empower themselves in order to do it themselves. One man with a vision. Alone. I share Bernie's vision. He's doing his most important work right now. Attending the Convention or becoming President will only neuter him. I'm certain he and I are on the same page about that. These are facts and realties in America, and the author should be told as much. Who was expecting something beyond Bernie carrying a new paradigm for Americans to every state in the nation?
Who thought he would ever be permitted to become President? That is not how the US government works.
For the sake of good mental hygiene, these realities should be written down and accepted so the group can move forward with strategies based on the way the world works.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Good Post. I love Bernie. Don't accept the way the world works.
Bernie asked us to resist that temptation and all I'm asking is for him to do the same.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho
Trolling
are we?
“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck
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