"Live to fight another day"

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 12:06am

Withdraw from Artyomovsk!

This is the advice which social media say the U.S. Government is today giving to the Zelensky regime in Kiev. It follows by a day or two the public release by German intelligence operatives of their own assessment of the latest course of the war, saying that the stubborn resistance of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to advancing Russian ground units in Artyomovsk (Bakhmut), just as the defense of Soledar (lost to the Russians a week ago) was and is a death trap set by the Russians for the Ukrainians. As the U.S. overlords understand today, continued losses of Ukrainian forces in these hopeless PR stunts are compromising any chances of their making a spring counteroffensive when the advanced military gear now being shipped to them arrives and is put into the field.

What conclusion can we reach from “withdraw from Artyomovsk”? Very simply that the notion of 1:1 death and ingured rates that the Anglosaxon news disseminators have been shouting for weeks to slant the news towards some “stalemate” between the opposing sides is pure nonsense. It would be safer to follow the figures put out by the Russian military, which indicate a 10:1 imbalance in casualties on the Ukrainian side.

Meanwhile, the big news in the past 24 hours was the meeting of the Ukraine Contact Group in the German army base at Ramstein. This was most notable for the failure of the defense ministers of the 50 participating countries to reach any agreement over delivery of tanks to the Ukrainians. Tanks are allegedly needed to support Ukraine’s spring counter offensive, with the objective not merely to push back the Russians to the line of demarcation in Donbas prior to the start of the Special Military Operation, but even to recapture the Crimea.

The central issue at Ramstein was German Chancellor Scholz’s refusal to send in German Leopard heavy tanks or to allow the many NATO countries where Leopards are held in the inventory to send any of their tanks to Kiev. Scholz is said to insist the Americans first ship their own Abrams tanks to Kiev before Germany will lift a finger. And why is he being so stubborn in resisting all the jackal states in NATO on this very issue? Western reports say he is fearful of leading the pack on delivery of tanks and incurring special Russian wrath.

Let us decode this message: the German chancellor is not some indecisive imbecile, as our newspapers hint. No, he is a cunning fox who is unwilling to allow Washington to send him and Europe to hell in what could easily become a Russia-NATO hot war if the Russian red lines forbidding heavy armaments deliveries are crossed.

So all the Ukrainians will get by way of new weapon systems as per the decisions announced yesterday in Ramstein are token deliveries of armored personnel carriers and armored machine gun and cannon vehicles that one might just call light tanks. That and a lot more howitzers of every variety coming from several different NATO countries.

But in terms of the big picture, what difference would tanks make? The vision of big tank warfare across the Ukrainian steppes that underlies the Washington war scenario is fallacious. As I have pointed out repeatedly, despite the lies and PR blasts from Washington and London, the war is being fought according to the Russian scheme, not the U.S. scheme.

We have heard how poorly the Russians coordinate air and ground. We have heard how they just cannot put together any good shock and awe. But this is beside the point. The Russians are waging an artillery war for good reasons: they have the world’s largest manufacturing industry of cannon, multi-rocket field launchers and munitions and they are waging a war of attrition on the ground which can only favor their armies.

If the slaughter of Ukrainians continues at its present rate, if the United States and its allies cannot ramp up munitions production, if the destruction of the Ukrainian energy infrastructure continues, if the logistics for conveying Western military supplies to the front are further impaired, then the Russians will find themselves against a disarmed Ukrainian army some time in the early spring, and they may get the capitulation they seek without shock and awe heroics.

I think this is a good plan. No more throwing Ukraine troops at Russia just to get killed and hopefully there will be a sane response to end this war and no more lives are wasted. Biden’s handlers who are actually running the Biden administration thought that Russia would fight like America did in the Iraq war with lots of shock and awe and senseless destruction of infrastructure and innocent civilian lives. Russia has said from the get go that people in Ukraine are not their enemy and more like their brothers.

And as for why this is taking Russia so long is two fold. One reason is because Ukraine had 8 years to build up defenses and second is because Russia values its soldier’s lives.

Here is some video of the defenses Russia is facing.

Also if you missed it here is Big Serge on what is happening in the Donbas. Lots of people are posting his essay including b from MoA which gives it high praise.

One thing to keep in mind is what will happen if it looks like Russia is going to meet their objectives. Already there is talk of helping Ukraine retake Crimea. Will that mean that NATO will send its own troops to help Ukraine? Right now there are 100,000 American troops in Europe and lots of military equipment is being sent there including more nuclear weapons. NATO recently held a nuclear war game close to Russia. Maybe the Biden classified documents scandal will see him stepping down and someone more sane will become president.

Everything you said since WW2 became a joke when you invaded Yugoslavia you dope! Then you added on with the invasion of Iraq and your shock and awe! If Putin needs to be charged for war crimes then so does Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden and probably every US president that supported the Monroe doctrine.

Every congress member who supports this war should have to send their family to Ukraine if Biden puts boots on the ground!

Yup this!

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Submitted by fire with fire on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 12:05pm

From the start of this bizarre affair, what has been most significant has been the similarity between the war against Putin and the war against covid. Both are presented by the Main stream media as utterly obvious necessities, with wall to wall rhetoric that makes it look like there is no other side to the issue at hand. Both red and blue teams agree on the premise that the effort of stopping the spread of Putin or covid is a self-evident necessity. The text of the rhetoric in both campaigns overtly dismisses any contrary opinion as either insanity or malevolence. Unless you put some effort into internet research, you will know nothing other than the unified message blaring at you. To the extent that there is any disagreement between the Red and blue teams, it comes down to arguing that the Other Side is not waging the war effectively enough.

Well, three years and one year in, respectively, both wars drag on and nothing has stopped either menace -- sanctions and vaccine have both failed to bring the enemy to heel, and underground media voices are pointing out the collateral damage coming from the questionable but unquestioned campaigns.

The predominant main stream narratives roll on, oblivious to the underground opposition and still unless you look for alternative messages, you are still left with only one side of each story.

In both cases, our government and corporate news industry are winning the propaganda wars. Here is what I thought about this as of last May, early in the war against Putin:

Since 2016, I have been wondering how the Democrats would walk back their utterly preposterous bullshit about Putin fixing the election by spreading the truth about the Democratic National Committee's internal communications. They never walked it back, it just went down the memory hole.

So, it continues to baffle me how these people continue to pump out idiotic and irrelevant bullshit for no plausible reason. I have posted here several times my opinion that they have no real interest in this Propaganda War other than to jam global communication with irrelevant noise to keep people from noticing things like $6 per gallon gasoline and the shit rain of economic disasters to come as the powers that be re-arrange civilization to their liking.

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Submitted by Cassiodorus on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 8:08am
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This was Richard Nixon's rationale for the Christmas bombings of Hanoi in 1972. Make the United States look insane, and maybe the "enemy" will cave and give up on its objectives. One would have thought that, even in 1972, they could have come up with a theory more psychologically sophisticated and less narcissistic than the "Madman theory." Two and a half years later, Nixon's objective, preserving the Republic of Vietnam, failed.

Alan Dawson's book 55 Days, a rather readable book now out of print, details the primary reason for that failure, on page 20:

What few Americans, and surprisingly few Vietnamese, realized by March 1973, was that the morale of the army was disintegrating. The South Vietnamese military had better weapons than any Asian nations, more warplanes than any client government in the world, more ammunition and gasoline and uniforms and office machines and vehicles and food than most armies in the world. It lacked only one thing.

An American who remained in Vietnam for reasons that had nothing to do with his political sympathies put it this way in a conversation with a former soldier bemoaning his fate under the new government: "We gave you everything you needed but guts. You just didn't have those." Cruel, and technically untrue. But the idea is correct. By the time the Communists decided to try for an offensive, the South Vietnamese army was in no position to fight them. Not because they lacked the means but because the soldiers lacked the desire.

Nixon's "Madman theory" reeks of people, Nixon but also those you cite in your diary here, people who have spent their lives puffing themselves up and accumulating money and power and the things money buys while at the same time failing to ask, "why?" Well, the ARVN, the army of that once-upon-a-time client nation, asked why, and failed to come up with an answer. So they decided they didn't want to fight.

I can't really say what motivates the nice liberals in the US to hang Ukrainian flags in front of their homes. They too have failed to ask "why." Zelensky's regime is a neoliberal regime, and its intolerance of alternatives achieved its fifteen minutes of fame in March of last year. Do they think Zelensky is some kind of champion of values they hold near and dear? Once again, we must ask, "why?"

In the December 2022 issue of The Atlantic Anne Applebaum an article titled Putin Must Lose (well, that's the title of the paper edition -- the online edition has a different title). What is Applebaum's rationale for her desire for a Russian defeat? Well, Applebaum is motivated to oppose Putin's regime because of the sheer numbers of dissidents his regime has criminalized and because of his regime's autocratic and imperialist character. Here's what she says:

Garry Kasparov—the former world chess champion who turned to democratic politics, helped organize street demonstrations in Moscow in the 2000s, and is now persona non grata in the country where he was once a hero—recently told me that he hopes to build a kind of “virtual South Korea,” an opposition-in-exile that stands in contrast to a Russia that more and more resembles North Korea.

We might readily concede that Putin is a pointless autocrat with a crap regime while at the same time asking "why?" about the neoliberalism which characterizes Applebaum's own beliefs. In recent years, David Klion told us in The Nation, a great many of Applebaum's own friends have joined various causes of garbage authoritarianism (think Trump, or Orban), because, apparently, they are searching for a reason why. In all arrogance, Applebaum's former friends think they've found that reason. They haven't.

The thing about neoliberalism is that, while as a set of interlocking doctrines it may have conquered the world with a vigor never before seen in history, and while it may have invaded the minds of the world's most well-connected scholars (e.g. Anne Applebaum), the neoliberals don't really stand for anything more profound than "more money for me." This is why you see the sort of war you see in Ukraine. The US will pointlessly fund Ukraine just enough to keep Zelensky's regime in business while also keeping the execs at Raytheon et al. happy with an adequate revenue stream for them. An outcome will probably take awhile.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by fire with fire on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 10:56pm

@Cassiodorus well written and incisive.

A note about the "guts" issue raised in the quote box.

Guts is a vernacular reductive expression of the willingness to fight with people who will be trying to kill you. Who really lacked guts in our Vietnam adventure was us. As Mohommed Ali put it, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." Of course, most draftees would not put it that way, but you had to be some kind of a fanatic to imagine that you had any beef with the people you were supposed to exterminate.

The antiwar movement was driven by disgust with the draft. Thus Nixon Vietnamized the war and phased out conscription. This led to Nixon and Kissinger with very little leverage in negotiating a face-saving end to the war that included a "decent interval" that would not make us look like wimps. So instead of fighting it out on the ground in South Vietnam, which required soldiers with guts, Nixon just ordered aerial bombardment of the North. The Mad Man theory was how this crazy tactic was sold to our "gutless" population. Maybe our citizens were rationally reluctant to try to control the future of Vietnam with our own young men, but Tricky Dick was crazy enough to rain fire on North Vietnam to buy a couple of years of saved face.

The proxy war with Russia in Ukraine is a reincarnation of this American lust for painless domination of the world.

Although I am sure that there was much actual courage amongst our men fighting in Vietnam, the underground story of "fragging" could not have become such a prevalent legend without the collateral truth of rank and file distaste for combat being prevalent.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:01pm
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@fire with fire

I wish when people edit comments they make a note to why they did. If it’s spelling just note that, if it’s adding something then note that.

Edit to add, ETA is easy to do. I think that’s just curtesy especially if a post has thumbs ups and it’s hours later.

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by fire with fire on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:25pm

@snoopydawg but when I add something or make a substantive revision, I try to remember to at least enter Edited To Add

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Submitted by soryang on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:55am
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Anne Applebaum doesn't know anything about South Korea. Does she mean the weak pretense of democracy in South Korea that keeps drifting back to dictatorships with US backing? The US replaced the Japanese Empire in Korea. The early Rhee government was staffed with Japanese collaborators because the US occupation was unpopular and met with resistance. The early ROK army leadership was staffed with former Korean officers/collaborators of the Japanese Imperial Army. Syngman Rhee was a corrupt US imposed puppet. He violently suppressed, massacred, jailed and tortured the indigenous opposition to the US occupation. Dictator Park Chung-hui was a former Japanese Imperial Army collaborator cultivated by the ROK Army General Staff of similar ilk.

To this day, the conservative parties in "democratic" South Korea consist of the heirs of the collaborator class that prospered from the Japanese dominance of Korea as a colony and the subsequent US imposed dictatorships. These people are not found of democracy at all, and typically will resort to dictatorship to suppress the democratic/independence movement in South Korea. They are willing to sell out to foreign powers namely the US and Japan, to preserve their exclusive status as the national power elite. The current president Yoon Suk-yeol a dictator in the making is the current manifestation of the authoritarianism reemerging in South Korea presently. Rarely if ever discussed honestly in English language media.

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語必忠信 行必正直

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 12:26pm
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@soryang and not Anne Applebaum's, Anne Applebaum doesn't need to claim knowledge of South Korea. Garry Kasparov, who perhaps ought to know better, is an uninteresting politician, even if a very good chess grandmaster.

However, generally the point is taken that the war between bad alternatives is full of bad options.

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The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by soryang on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 12:45pm
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@Cassiodorus she cited someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. like he's an authority? To me a distinction without a difference.

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語必忠信 行必正直

Submitted by Creosote. on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 10:27am
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We are lucky to have you sharing your eye for the meaningful and ability to convey it clearly with your own views.
As an addendum, I just found that access to Macgregor's current videos appears to be restricted.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:30am
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@Creosote.

Russian Zaporizhzhia Advance

The Russian military has made some kind of advance in the Zaporizhzhia region. Russian official Vladimir Rogoff, senior official in the Zaporizhzhia government says that Russia has advanced several kilometers, has taken a cluster of settlements, and is confronting Ukrainian positions in a number of locations close to the city of Zaporizhzhia (which used to have 750,000 population but is now down to about 400,000), lying mainly on the eastern bank of the Dnieper and constituting a key part of the Ukrainian economy.

Once Russian forces have taken full control over the settlements in question, it is possible that they will approach Zaporizhzhia itself. Rogoff talks about panic among Ukrainian leadership as to whether it is time to evacuate the city (Mercouris discounts this claim). Bernhardt at Moon of Alabama talks of a general lack of Ukrainian forces in this area (only 3 brigades, infantry rich but not mobile) whereas the British MOD, by contrast claims there are large Ukrainian forces concentrated in this region, as have the Russians. Bernhardt cites a credible source but the British MOD does not.

The purposes of the Russian advance are unknown. Most of the settlements taken are in no man’s land, not heavily defended by Ukraine. Is this the beginning of the major Russian offensive? If so, its purpose is most likely to cut off supply lines for Ukrainian forces to the south and perhaps ultimately to cut off Ukrainian forces in Donbass completely. If Russia advances on the small town of Orokhoff (spelling provisional!) and capturing it, then we may be more justified in talking about a major Russian offensive. Also the likelihood of a Ukrainian offensive to Melitopol will be much diminished in favor of Ukraine sending more reinforcements to Bakhmut, where there is a slow motion Ukrainian collapse.

This goes on to explain how important Bakmut is to both Ukraine and Russia. Also more kudos to Big Serge.

Ukraine is running out of troops and equipment and whatever equipment they finally get is not going to do much to help them retake territory that Russia has taken. It’s said that Ukraine had the biggest army in Europe before the war and had lots of equipment from the western countries, but Russia has destroyed both. Biden flooded Ukraine with more equipment and Russia destroyed that too and now NATO is scouring the world for any leftover Russian equipment and is also taking weapons from its allies. Biden just robbed Israel of half its bombs and begging South America to donate their equipment to Ukraine.

For some reason this reminds me of Laurel and Hardy's Who’s on First?

America is in no shape to build military equipment quickly because it not only offshored its workforce, but it has to import a lot of the metals used to make it. It’d be a very boneheaded move to take on China when we depend on it for so many things that we no longer make. Besides how will we equip Taiwan and fight China if we are out of everything? Smdh over the stupidity of war.

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by fire with fire on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:18pm

@snoopydawg
.
Who's on first. What's on second. Third base? I don't know.

-- Bud Abbott and Lou Costello

Personally, I think Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy were much funnier, but they had no signature bit like Who's on first. They had some great tag lines, like Ollie saying, "why don't you do anything to help me?"

My favorite line in Who's on First is the opening words from Bud, setting the absurd premise: "nowadays ballplayers have some funny names."

--- I was an open mic comic for six years in the 90s and I am full of . . . trivia.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:29pm
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@fire with fire

Bud Abbott and Lou Costello

Thanks for the correction. I was very young when they were popular, but that’s got to be one of my favorite jokes. I love the old comedians and recently watched George Burns crack jokes.
He said that Gracie did most of the work. He asked how her brother was and she talked about him for the next 38 years. Red Skelton is my most favorite because he reminds me of my grandpa. Both were very funny and kind men. Also Costello was my grandpa’s last name.

Thanks!

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:18am
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But in terms of the big picture, what difference would tanks make? The vision of big tank warfare across the Ukrainian steppes that underlies the Washington war scenario is fallacious. As I have pointed out repeatedly, despite the lies and PR blasts from Washington and London, the war is being fought according to the Russian scheme, not the U.S. scheme.

With enuf work and time NATO could, I'm sure, position the Ukie-Us-NATO-EU tank contingent so as to play out Kursk 2.0, replacing the German forces in the original.

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 11:44am
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@enhydra lutris

A replay of battles from ww2 when German Nazis attacked Russian forces? I’m not a history buff, but from what I’ve read I think that is why Germany is so reluctant to be the first country to supply tanks.

From the above essay:

The Leopard 2 Saga of European Disunity

Germany’s intelligence service, BMD, made a report to the German parliament a week ago which seemed to confirm the importance of Bakhmut, the weakening of Ukraine’s defense of Bakhmut, and the likelihood that the collapse of Bakhmut will signal Russian victory of the war for Donbass. This may help explain the recent resignation of the German defense minister, and the inability of western defense ministers at their meeting yesterday in Ramstein to persuade Germany to give up Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. Chancellor Scholtz’s appointment of a replacement defense minister (Mr. Pistorius) who is an SPD politician and has a security background makes it increasingly clear that the German military are very unhappy with western pressure re. Leopards. We have had critical commentaries on this by Generals Vad and Kuyak (who was senior in the military hierarchy, whereas Vad is more of a “political soldier”) and there is now additional critical commentary from the head of the military union, Andre Wusner. He worries about a severe shortage of weapons by 2025 because of the energy crisis, in conditions in which producers cannot supply at a profit, and asks what kind of delivery of tanks to another country can Germany contemplate? Are German generals challenging their politicians to rethink their logic, and their priorities, as Ukraine bleeds to death regardless of how many tanks Germany can send? Public opinion in Germany is shifting against the supply of Leopards.

Also regarding the tweet with Graham having a hissy fit over Germany dragging its feet on sending tanks why is he so angry? He’s lying that if they don’t stop Russia in Ukraine that Russia will go on to conquer other countries. Russia’s goals are to stop Ukraine/NATO from being a threat to Russia which Putin laid out in his many speeches on why Russia was forced to act.

1- stop the genocide in the Donbas.
2- denazify Ukraine.
3- roll back the threat of NATO’s encroachment on Russia.

No #4 to recapture the country Russia had when it was the USSR. Others just made that up to make Russia seem more threatening.

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 10:18pm
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ETA this transcript of the tweet:

"So that's an interesting approach that you are driving German tanks against Russia in Ukraine that your grandfathers have already tried by the way back then with the Melanies and Banderas and what is the result unspeakable suffering millions of deaths on both sides and in the end Russian tanks here in Berlin and two of them are standing here in front and you should pass by it every morning to remember."

Last time Germany sent tanks into Ukraine it ended up with Russian tanks in Berlin. And millions died!

Glad to see someone calling out this insanity. But what with Russia’s air power just what are those tanks supposed to accomplish that the ones that Russia destroyed didn’t? And the Bradley semi tanks are going to do what?

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by shaharazade on Sun, 01/22/2023 - 8:53pm
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All of this shit is irrelevant. It's only castles burning.

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Submitted by enhydra lutris on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 9:33am
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@shaharazade

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by shaharazade on Fri, 01/27/2023 - 9:22pm
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@shaharazade Dag all this brouhaha about the obvious. Why carry on about the freaking Russians fer god sake. Jeeze the world is stressed nature is freaked out and you people want to get all worked up about the Russains? What the hell is wrong with you? Skirmish your-self's your all insane.

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Submitted by MrWebster on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 11:41am

The Col. said in Iraq he commanded a tank group. He was in a tank when the Iraqis started shelling them. So he has seen it, been there, and got the tee-shirt. However, he said that it was beyond his imagination what an artillery attack would look given the amount of shells the Russians were expending on a DAILY basis.

Says it all. Ukraine is winning.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 12:41pm
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@MrWebster

and luckily survived to return home saying that the amount of shelling from Russia was beyond imagination and nothing like what they experienced playing in the sand. We’ve been the country that put the hurt on the people fighting against our invasion and now that shoe is on the other foot.

The editorial board of the WaPoo is absolutely livid with Germany for not sending its 14 tanks to Ukraine. They ought to change their motto of democracy dies in darkness to it dies in a nuclear flash.

Besides hasn’t Ukraine been bragging that they have captured hundreds of Russian tanks? Why aren’t they using them instead of asking for ones from various countries? As others have written Ukraine had the biggest and most supplied army in Europe before the war, but now they beg every day for more equipment that once it gets there Russia blows up.

Biden is going to send Ukraine cluster bombs to use against Crimea. They have been using old Russian ones against the people in the Donbas for 9 years and of course there is no outrage from the world. Milley and Austin are saying that they are sending offensive weapons to Ukraine after Biden has said that he wouldn’t and would just send defensive ones. Graham is becoming unhinged after spending a decade getting Ukraine ready to wipe Russia off the map and seeing it fail. Another reason why Russia went slow was so that America wouldn’t freak out when they saw they were going to lose. It’s hard to hide that fact so stay tuned…

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by MrWebster on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 1:53pm

@snoopydawg One anti-Russian commentator said there was so much captured Russian equipment the Ukrainians did know not what to do with them. I guess using them eluded the Ukrainians/US/UK. Does any rational person really believe a few tanks will make a difference? But then again Western propaganda has made out the Russian military so incompetent that Westerners do believe a few tanks will push out the Russians.

Right now it seems to me that Russia is in the beginning phases of some offensive which is systematically destroying the Ukrainian army to levels not seen in the past 11 months.

As a result, my fear is that with the obvious and impeding Ukrainian defeat, that the US/NATO may truly escalate into ways the Russians cannot tolerate which will bring a continental wide European war. With of course, greater risks of going nuclear.

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Submitted by QMS on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 2:37pm
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@MrWebster

the minor caveat, in my scope of things to come, I do not see the Rus expanding into EU
territories, unless Poland gets provocative. I think the Poles know this reading of red lines.
Germany is being set-up to be the fall guy in this theatrical tragedy. If the German
were to back down at this late stage, the NATO, Poles and maybe even Turkie
may fall by the wayside. Whenever Eastern Europe realizes the USEU will sacrifice their
populations and economies for the sake of USNATO's ambitions, it may be too late to do
anything about it.

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question everything

Submitted by MrWebster on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 3:46pm

@QMS Russia does not have the military to move in/invade any EU nation. Also, NATO as it stands now does not have number of people and equipment to drive out the Russians in Ukraine. Putin has said a number of times the Russian military is built to be defensive. If they wanted to be offensive minded they would need to be the size of the Red Army at the end of WWII. But the West is lead by ideological idiots and who knows what they may try.

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Submitted by snoopydawg on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 4:24pm
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@MrWebster

But then again Western propaganda has made out the Russian military so incompetent that Westerners do believe a few tanks will push out the Russians.

Just a bunch of prisoners that swill vodka all day and are too drunk to fight right. They are also orcs and anyone who disagrees with the pro Ukraine narrative are called tankies. Check the outrage at Germany on DK for holding up tanks to Ukraine. No problem with Germany and Japan once again building up their military or seeing German tanks supporting Nazis in Ukraine.

@QMS

Agree that Russia has no intention of going into more countries if they win in Ukraine. Russia has set out their plans numerous times and one of the biggest reasons they crossed the border was to protect people in the Donbas that Ukraine was attacking bigly just before they did. Russia didn’t fire the first shot of the war, Ukraine did and they had been for years. Funny how what Poreshenko, Merkle and Hollande deliberately deceiving Putin with the Minsk agreements while he kept trying to get them to adhere to it hasn’t been mentioned by the corporate media huh?

Biggest damn propaganda attack ever! It’s sad that so many people fell for it, but then that’s why democrats pushed Russia Russia Russia for 5 years. Most that fell for it still believe that Hillary only lost because Putin put Trump in office. Even the propaganda media has come out with the truth about how it never happened. Selective reading I guess?

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Putin isn’t going to make you homeless or kill you or deny you health care.
Your government will allow it to happen though.

Submitted by QMS on Mon, 01/23/2023 - 5:59pm
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@snoopydawg

you know way more about this stuff than I. I only see trends, river water flowing, tides and
currents (I'm an ancient mariner). Russia has no intent beyond protecting their oblasts and
borders. Ukraine is a suicide mission egged on by NATO and the west. Bloody hell.

It is difficult for me to see a peaceful ending to this skirmish unless the west ceases to
arm the ukonazis. Like most wars, it makes no sense. People fighting for their lives, culture
and national identity has nothing to do with EUUSNATO. Except for war profiteering.

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