Open Thread - Thurs 08 Aug 2022: Archaeology Again?
Finally, Roman Stuff!
A few weeks ago, I did a couple of open threads with information and discussion about 'woke' archaeology. I really appreciated the thoughtful discussion and comments those invoked and wanted to expand on my point, and blather on a bit about a tiny part of archaeology, because I wuvs archaeology!
Something that is very clear, whether one is looking at an ancient cemetery or ancient burials, cremations, houses, ritual sites, tools, clothing... it doesn't matter what, is that there are aspects of all those items which are common for every society and time in that society and which are taken as the 'norm' for each item/aspect by the archaeologists studying that society. Archaeologists and others recognize that many, many times something studied might be different in some or many ways than the norm, but still the norm is important. As an example, it's wonderful that by using DNA female Viking warriors have been found, but still, for now, the average Viking warrior was male; as evidenced by skeletal remains, Viking literature, historical facts, Viking artistic depictions and so on.
Each society tends to accept certain things as a 'normal' and overhype or completely ignore the things that are not considered 'normal' for that society and time. There's countless examples in our own society, never mind all the other societies that have existed throughout time or currently exist at this time.
As we learn and grow, from our earliest years, we discover what is supposedly 'normal' and, if we are lucky, we start to question that and examine the things that aren't 'normal'. This is a common learning process, and the way many topics in academia are taught. Learn the normal of whatever, then dive down into the exceptions and differences.
This is how the archaeology of the Roman army, at least in northern Europe, is taught. The Roman army in the first couple centuries AD was quite standardized in how it built and organized its bases (generally called, in English, forts (for auxiliary units) and fortresses (for legions)), its units (legions were the biggest unit, about 5-6,000 men, at least on paper; auxiliary units were around 300 to 1000 men, depending on type of unit) and its service conditions for the basic soldiers and commanders. Some parts of the system are not entirely understood by us, and ideas about various aspects of that system, both major and minor, change as we gain more knowledge.
In what follows, I'm going to concentrate only upon Roman forts in northern Britain. But be aware that there are all kinds of things which were standardized (normalized) in the Roman army in the various areas it controlled, and those standards were broken by that same army all the time as needed.
Standard Roman Fort Plan, from https://www.romanforts.org
The basic fort in the first centuries AD, in England or Scotland or northern Germany, or Macedonia or along the Danube or in northern Africa and so on, was the same. That's one of the first things someone studying the Roman army as it existed and functioned learns. The basic fort was 'playing card' shaped and held the same elements, housing, headquarters, storage buildings, commander's house..., often in roughly the same positions with respect to gates, streets, etc. The forts were often around the same size, depending upon the type of unit which occupied them. No matter the different origins of the units which occupied the different forts, the basics of those forts were the same.
And yet, there were many exceptions. And studying those exceptions, and the possible reasons for them, is one of the things that makes Roman military archaeology so interesting. For example, the Roman fort at Bewcastle (Fanum Cocidi was its Roman name) in Cumbria, situated a bit north of Hadrian's Wall was shaped like a hexagon instead of the much more common and 'normal' playing card shape, because it was on top of a hill and that was the shape that was available.
Bewcastle Roman Fort Plan, from https://www.u3ahadrianswall.co.uk
Another exception: Every fort had barracks buildings, the soldiers had to live somewhere! For the infantry each barracks held one century (80 men, despite the name, by the 1st C AD) and its commander, the centurion. These buildings had 10 sections, divided into two rooms each. Each section was for a 'contubernium' (8 men), the basic unit of the century. The centurion's quarters were at the end of the building, and were more elaborate and privatized.
Cavalry, Roman Style!, from https://hadrianswallcountry.co.uk
For the cavalry the basic unit was the turma (30 men). Each turma in a unit lived in one barracks, just like a century in an infantry unit. On Hadrian's Wall, we didn't know, until recently, where the turma's horses were stabled. This discovery was made in part due to careful excavation and in part due to scientific advances (analysis of soil in some of the barracks rooms which showed high concentrations of animal waste). It seems that the barracks in the forts used by cavalry units on Hadrian's Wall also held horses, which lived in the barracks, separated by a door, with their riders. Each barracks section held three cavalry men and three horses. At the end of the barracks, as usual, was the housing for the commander of the turma. We honestly didn't know where the horses were kept around or in the forts on Hadrian's Wall before this discovery (made around 2000).
And another exception: Roman auxiliary units originated from different parts of the empire and were often transferred far away from their territory of origin to serve. They still lived in the same playing card shaped forts no matter where they were, but how they lived in that fort could differ. For example, some of the Roman army units stationed in Scotland on the Antonine Wall were originally from northern Africa. It seems they took their cooking traditions with them, cooking on African braziers while inhabiting the Roman fort of Bearsden in Scotland.
Roman Centurion cooking a Roman Burger (yea, centurions didn't cook probably, but what the heck, it's a burger which the Romans, not the Yanks, may have invented!)
I hope these very few examples of 'normal' and exceptions to that normal in Roman army studies in Britain are interesting! I'm currently working on some aspects of this for an eventual article, and it has taken over my brain, so my apologies if it's boring 
A side note: I noticed Lookout and Joe Shikspack talking about cassette tapes on an open thread last week. I have a bunch of cassettes, and bought a nice little deck which transfers them to computer. It works well but... but... most of my tapes are warped. The interesting thing is, it's the commercial tapes which are warped, the counterpart of 'albums' in the 60s-70s-80s. The tapes I recorded myself, mostly off soundboards at concerts (I was friends with the sound engineers!), or which I created myself of my favorite songs, are still good. Go figure, eh!
So, thanks for reading and here's the open thread - and remember, everything is interesting if you dive deep enough, so tell us about where you're diving!
Comments
Good Day!
Woo! Had an earthquake very near here an hour or so ago. It wasn't super big, 3.8 according to early reports, but it did make things shake in the house. Thought my houseplants on top my computer desk were going to either dance in circles, or fall on my head. Luckily, they danced in circles!
So that's my excitement for the day, I hope. Sending good wishes to everyone, and hope everyone's day is as great as it can be. No floods, no heat stroke, please. Post whatever you are learning and reading about, I wanna know about it!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
This rebuilt Roman fort, north of Frankfurt am Main in Germany,
is a UNESCO world cultural heritage site:
https://www.bad-homburg-tourismus.de/en/entdecken/ausflug_saalburg.htm
The panorama shot of the fort is amazing
Thanks lot!
question everything
It's gorgeous!
I got to go there once, when I was studying in Newcastle. Loved it! Thanks for the link!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It is About Time!
https://twitter.com/GonzaloLira1968/status/1567566108911194124
Covid Vax is Banned in the UK for children under 12.
This is how it begins.....
NYCVG
Finally!
Wonder if it'll ever be banned, or at least monitored, here?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
musical interlude
Pete Seeger ..
[video:https://youtu.be/h0gg3-xvMB0]
thanks for the OT!
question everything
Pete Seeger!
Love it, thanks for the vid! Now I'm gonna haveta pull out some of my Seeger albums and have a listen again!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Good morning...
We were lucky to visit several Roman remnants in the UK. Bath and York as well as Hadrian's wall. One of the more interesting sites was Cirencester, and old Roman town devoted to a mosaic school. Outside of town was a Roman villa.
Their hot baths are something I wish we had....
...and there were several mosaics and artworks....
I often imagine the Roman elite who hide out after the empire falls...
Most of the buildings have suffered the fate of time...
Anyone who gets a chance to visit the UK and is interested in Roman things Bath and York are worth while stops. I've too many pics to post.
So thanks for the Roman reminders and OT!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I often wonder
what the sentient cockroaches will think thousands of years from now, when they explore the ruins of Mar-A-Lago or Chez Magnum-Obama (after they develop the technology to elevate them out of the oceans, of course)...
"I wonder where the occupants fled, when the empire fell?" (waves antennae)...
Twice bitten, permanently shy.
What will they think?
I wonder too. I wonder if they will wave antennae at the huge trash heaps. Maybe they will dig in them, marveling at the plastic... and relate it to the plastic they find in the fossils of ocean animals.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Bath, York, Cirencester... all have great Roman ruins
Thanks for the pics! I haven't been to Cirencester in a long time. I was in Bath about 15 years ago, got to show my hubby around. We went to York as well, and Newcastle (of course), took the train from Carlisle to Newcastle along Hadrian's Wall Route. Such memories. Thanks for bringing them back to me
One of the more recent areas of study in Roman Britain is the 'end of the Empire'. What happened after? It used to be thought that the Roman army just packed up and left, and certainly, elements did; removed by generals who wanted to be Emperors and so on. But, on the frontiers, it seems the troops stayed, were by then part of the local elites, and just stayed in place to slowly die out 50 or more years after the official withdrawal from Britain.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Well, it never got below 67 last night, so
i'm planning on rushing out and getting some outdoor work in before it gets seriously hot. Maybe I'll be back later, as I also like archaeology. A quibble, however or several in one:
Without evidence that it was served on a bun, what you have there is a cooked ground beef patty, what the French call steak hache'. For those seeking a US style breakfast, in the student quarter, there is a small "American Cafe" near the Sorbonne that has US style breakfasts, burgers with fries and shakes, and a generally US diner/burger joint type menu. There is a large sign on one wall that says "all things hache' originated in France". So not Rome nor US, but la France.
be well and have a good one
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Wouldn't be surprised if 'burgers' came from all over...
Seems like eating meat on bread is pretty basic, where both things are common. The article and comment are tongue in cheek, mostly. There is a recipe for a burger type patty in Apicius. Dunno if he recommends eating it on bread or not, though. Recipes for burger type patties are also evident down through history, according to the article.
Last night it was very cold here, has been for the last few days. This is normal for here, we will hit freezing for a flash frost in a week or two at night; time to cover the plants! Hope the outdoor work went well. I will be returning to that tomorrow, today was shopping in the 'big' town day!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
China surpases the US
In many ways China surpasses the dwindling US empire
they still believe in investing in their country - infrastructure and poverty reduction.
And their Belt Road development plan is helping many other poorer nations.
I think it is this that scares the US hegemony.
BTW, your picture/link thing shows up as a small blue box with a question mark on
my machine. I know not is the whatwhyfor.
question everything
Here's a twitter
Should Be
Won't be.
Nothing may disturb the US hegemony's PR.
As I said up thread---
UK has banned Covid vax for kids under 12.
NYCVG
I shouldn't be surprised...
and I'm not. Thought China, like the rest of the world, had already 'beat' us in life expectancy. They've got healthcare for all. We can't even accomplish that.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hillary 'War Criminal' Clinton,
"the ugliest faced woman who unleashed death upon the Libyan and Syrian people"
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-2yXjkozB8]
Gag!
She's so slimey, so ... ick.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Long live the queen…oops. The queen is dead
Queen Elizabeth died after a brief illness and now Britain has King Charles and the queen consort Camilla. Recently it was 25 years since Diana died.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
The Queen is dead! Long live the King!
Queen Megan...
coming soon! Ok, probably not. I thought they were gonna skip Charles and put William in?
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Just visited Dion, Greece
They have a nice archeological park where you can walk through most of the old city. See how it morphed from 300BC to 500AD. A museum nearby to explain it all. And another building to house the massive mosaic they found.
It's near Mt Olympus, so you can imagine Zeus had a few spots.
Dion sounds marvelous!
I got to go to some Greek archaeological sites a long, long time ago. Late 70's. I don't think Dion was included, sadly. Thanks for stopping by. I'm gonna be reading about Dion now
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Forgive a derail...
...but once again, the publishing system on this site is a PITA that does a great deal to prevent me from actually trying to contribute more despite having many things to say.
It feels like setting a time-bomb that's really squeamish about going off and demands a minimum delay without actually specifying so or how long - and "just publish the darn thing NOW" appears to not even be an option for reasons I cannot begin to guess.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Look again
@
After you write your essay you save it and at the top you have the option to publish it. Click on it and you get a 'are you sure you want to publish it' and you click on it and it posts immediately. If you have saved it it’s in your drafts folder you can still post it. I always click edit if I’ve written and time has passed just so it doesn’t get lost in the previous day’s essays. Or further down the page where it might be missed.
If you need more help just ask.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
Try hitting reload on your browser
shows you pretty much instantly where it went.
question everything
Snoopydawg and QMS
covered my advice. You can set up a post to publish around a certain time, I always set the OT for a bit after 3 am, and it publishes between 3 and 4 am. However, you can also immediately publish a post, as Snoopydawg explains. I've done that by accident once!
I use reload a lot, as QMS says, to see how things have changed and where my post might be. I also use Preview, a heck of a lot. If you use that, remember to save after you get things to what you like, because Preview doesn't automatically save the post (and shouldn't, it's giving you a chance to see what it will look like).
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Hwangseong Ruins
(황성의 적〉(荒城의 跡), 또는 〈황성옛터〉Hwangseong Ruins
현재 가사
At Hwangseong ruins, as night turns, only the silence of moonlight
The limned ruins unburdened tell me
Ah, solitary traveler, here one cannot sleep
At the mournful insect sounds, tears well without a word
The walls demolished an empty place, only the fragrant green grass
The world is a futile thing, it tells
Ah, pitiful, my heart what does it seek
In a fleeting dream, wandering the streets
I'm taken without end by my steps to the place
Over mountains and across streams without stopping
Ah, without bounds, this thought i embrace deep within my chest
As I travel onward, old ruins fare-thee-well!
This song was written in 1928. Hwangseong, literally means emperor's castle. The lyrics were inspired by ruins of Manwoltae in Kaseong, Korea. Manwoltae was the site of the old Goryeo dynasty. The lyricist Hwang Peong was part of a traveling theatrical group. The melody was composed by Jeon Su Rin. Lee Ae-ri was the singer. The popular hit was among those first recorded in Korean to be played on gramophone. It's said that 50,000 records were produced beginning in 1932. The song was banned by the Japanese and suppressed because it was believed to express resistance to Japanese colonial rule. If anything the repressed song became more popular. The song appeared in many guises over the years as it was performed by multiple artists. The elegy was felt to express the heated spirit in the hearts of the Korean people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manwoldae
There are two versions of the lyrics, modern (above) which I have attempted to interpret here, and an original version which Ms. Lee adapted for this performance:
[강릉선교장] 황성옛터 - 이정표 (Jungpyo Lee)
Here is a link to Jungpyo Lee's rendition of Hwangseong Ruins:
語必忠信 行必正直
A mesmerizing lament
thanks!
question everything
My pleasure
Glad you like it.
I memorized a couple of Korean songs more than thirty years ago, and struggled with the language for a few years and gave up. Fortunately, in the last few years I had a second chance with the language. Listening to Korean songs and trying to understand them has been very rewarding. Not the BTS icon stuff, but songs with historical significance, those with classic Buddhist themes, traditional Trot music, and older popular music. It's like poetry to me.
The artist Lee Jangpyo, is a music scholar. (I know next to nothing about music). I appreciate her effort and those of other artists to save these older songs.
語必忠信 行必正直
That song is beautiful and soulful
I thought about how it feels, sometimes to just sit in the 'ruins' of... where-ever. Sometimes I can hear, even sort of see, the ghosts of the former inhabitants walking around. Maybe it's more a feeling, not a seeing... I don't know. Thanks for introducing me to the song, and adding some history about it.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
Ancient Garden
There's another, that I think captures the feeling you describe:
오래된 정원 Ancient Garden
Wind eddies around some stone wall
Hanging vines flutter in the wind
Old moss is lodged above a stone lamp
In a deep cave mountain birds rest and take flight
ah, ah, ah, ah -
In the misty ancient garden, white flowers bloom
I walk alone in bright moonlight
The breeze brushes past the foothills
In the front garden the whispering wind plays
As though the old owner had passed by
It seems pleasant news is on the way
ah, ah, ah, ah -
In the misty ancient garden, white flowers bloom
I walk alone in bright moonlight
[KBS전주] 국악한마당 // 하윤주, 이아름 - 오래된 정원 Ha Yoon-ju vocal and Lee Ah-reun Gayageum.
The artists perform on an old Baekje Kingdom venue, the Mireuksa Temple site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mireuksa
語必忠信 行必正直
That's just amazing...
Yes, that does describe how I feel sometimes. 'As though the old owner had passed by...' Exactly.
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
I got to Bath, not York.
Hadrian's Wall, I saw the touristy thing, but had only a few days on that trip, no time to follow it. Ruins are fascinating, no matter where they are. Some of the most interesting were in, of all places, in Panama!
I am trying to remember correctly,maybe the best preserved Roman Emperor's fortress was in Slovenia? Moldavia? Slovakia? Damn, would have to check out my itineraries. He was the only Emperor not to have been murdered. His moat and fortress was totally BADASS. He got pissed off when his wife and daughter went all Christian, so he had to kill them. There was a Bollywood film crew filming as I walked around. Fun times, I have had them, and am doing my best to see the history of the world.
You freeze, I endure 90 degrees for likely the rest of the month. So, you stay warm, I will endeavor to stay cool!
Thanks for your wonderful OT!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Bath is so interesting...
I love how the old roman ruins are right there with the post-roman, all the way to Victorian and so on. And hot and steamy in places, so it gives this sorta curtain to get the imagination going...
Not sure what emperor made that fortress, but from the possible location in 'eastern' Europe, it'll be Constantine or later, probably. Constantine I had his son and his wife killed. But because of his mother, Helena, he eventually became Christian and so did the empire. He died naturally, but so did many other emperors in the early times, like Hadrian, Trajan, Antoninus Pius, Domitian, Titus, Augustus... heh. I know about the early emperors better than the later.
Ohh and just 'cause, a modern 'tribute' to Constantine, or something...
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XlO39kCQ-8]
90 for the rest of the month!?! Gasp. Ack! We might have mid 80's for a few days, then I think it'll get autumn cool. The nights'll be cold. It'll rain soon, maybe another couple weeks, and all the wild berries will get moldy. I gotta get those picked!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
It wasn't Constantine.
I checked out his stuff, THOROUGHLY, even that mom's castle where she walked him through her garden path, told him, "Son, those Xtians face lions together, so maybe that would be the way to keep your sprawling empire together. Go with Jesus." (Or something like that.)
I will find it that trip. Maybe Montenegro. I know it was some optional day trip on a tour of Slovenia and Croatia. I remember hearing a men's a'capello choir performing in a hall where the acoustics were perfect, and I bought one of their CDs.
Seems The Game of Thrones was filmed there. Maybe that will clue us in!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Diocletian?
The only emperor to retire, live more years and die naturally? His palace is in Split, Croatia and the Game of Thrones filmed there, I guess. I dunno, never seen the movie/series :). He was emperor from around 284 to 305 or something like that. Constantine took over after him.
I've never been to Croatia. I think I should mark it down on my list of places to visit!
If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so
You got it, Smarty Pants!
That is him!
By all means, visit Croatia. It feels like Italy in some areas, like Greece in others, and much like Portugal, it is inexpensive, a destination for working people to spend holidays. And that fortress...
Happy travels!
Hope the kids are well!
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981