Open Thread -04-22-22 - In Memoriam and "Facts"

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 8:22am

I'll include this for those that may have missed stephenadavis1's announcement yesterday about his dear wife Wendy Davis' passing.

Wendy joined us (c99) on 4/23/2015 as member #88. I first started reading Wendy's work when she was posting at FireDogLake. She was a great writer and staunch leftie. She was not fond of mainstream politics and a fierce defender of human rights. She cross-posted much of her work from her beloved blog, café babylon, where one can find her work in entirety.

I got to know Wendy fairly well over the years in our private conversations. She was a great lady with a big heart. I will miss her. My condolences to Stephen and Wendy's friends and family.

So long old friend.

---------------------------

Facts

Has anyone noticed how fluid the word "facts" has become? Elusive and illusory and subject to opinion rather than truth (truth, another fluid word). Everyone has their own "facts" it seems, based upon points of contentious argument. "Facts" have become so subjective that an infinite regression of "fact" checkers are needed, adding to the whirlwind of confusion. Have you noticed how folks are willing to die on their hill of "facts", concrete and immovable, and most not willing to bend from their "factual" position? Worst yet, are the arbiters of "facts", the gatekeepers, who spoon-feed the "facts" du jour into the maw of public opinion at the behest of the minders of institution.

Isn't it time, in an era of redefining the meaning of words, that we reconsider the meaning of "facts"?

Tags:

Open Thread

Vote

Comments

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 8:23am

Good morning folks...

Addendum: Wow, that was fooking weird. I lost almost all of this OT not long after I published it and had to rewrite it all. Damn software glitch!

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 9:38am

Facts and Truth, eh? A bit early in the morning for that

shit if you ask me.

Old adage "And the truth shall set you free" Yeah? The truth is that you ain't free and knowing it doesn't help.

TRUTH, n. An ingenious compound of desirability and appearance. Discovery of truth is the sole purpose of philosophy, which is the most ancient occupation of the human mind and has a fair prospect of existing with increasing activity to the end of time.

TRUTHFUL, adj. Dumb and illiterate.

- Ambrose Bierce

"I wish to propose a doctrine ... which may, I fear, appear wholly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing that it is true."

- Bertrand Russell -

The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way. Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants.
- Bertrand Russell-

It has been proposed that we live in a post-truth age or era. I disagree. We are however, living in a post evidence era, which makes the truth and or facts difficult to arrive at and support. Evidence is simply never presented and or withheld and or fabricated and only evidence can establish facts and truth with the exception of "holy truths" or "sunday truths" and "legal facts". In our courts the parties can stipulate (to) certain facts, taking them off of the table, this is useful, sometimes even if they cannot be established with certainty (cross-reference "assuming arguendo...")

You do know that Descartes cheated, right? Cogito my ass. 1) used petitio principii and 2) Deus ex machina. So where was I?

It used to be said that everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts, but those days are gone. We make maps and models, which evolve as our "knowledge" and "information" grows, but that presumes persons of honesty, integrity and good will collaborate both formally and informally to seek out and objectively determine and report that which can be discerned. What, all 3 or 4 of them? Yeah, suuure. There is great motive, great bindles of motives and rewards awaiting those who obfuscate and fabricate and, as always in human affairs, "cui bono" rules the day. And that's a fact.

be well and have a good one

edit, you do know instead of you do now --

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 9:43am

There is one glaring fact...

@enhydra lutris
applicable to your comment, mi hermano, and that is that you are spot on.

shit if you ask me. Old adage "And the truth shall set you free" Yeah? The truth is that you ain't free and knowing it doesn't help. TRUTH, n. An ingenious compound of desirability and appearance. Discovery of truth is the sole purpose of philosophy, which is the most ancient occupation of the human mind and has a fair prospect of existing with increasing activity to the end of time. TRUTHFUL, adj. Dumb and illiterate. - Ambrose Bierce "I wish to propose a doctrine ... which may, I fear, appear wholly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing that it is true." - Bertrand Russell - The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way. Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. - Bertrand Russell- It has been proposed that we live in a post-truth age or era. I disagree. We are however, living in a post evidence era, which makes the truth and or facts difficult to arrive at and support. Evidence is simply never presented and or withheld and or fabricated and only evidence can establish facts and truth with the exception of "holy truths" or "sunday truths" and "legal facts". In our courts the parties can stipulate (to) certain facts, taking them off of the table, this is useful, sometimes even if they cannot be established with certainty (cross-reference "assuming arguendo...") You do know that Descartes cheated, right? Cogito my ass. 1) used petitio principii and 2) Deus ex machina. So where was I? It used to be said that everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts, but those days are gone. We make maps and models, which evolve as our "knowledge" and "information" grows, but that presumes persons of honesty, integrity and good will collaborate both formally and informally to seek out and objectively determine and report that which can be discerned. What, all 3 or 4 of them? Yeah, suuure. There is great motive, great bindles of motives and rewards awaiting those who obfuscate and fabricate and, as always in human affairs, "cui bono" rules the day. And that's a fact. be well and have a good one edit, you do know instead of you do now --

Submitted by usefewersyllables on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 12:16pm

Excellent point.

@enhydra lutris

As the good old lawyer joke says: "If the facts aren't on your side, argue the law. If the law isn't on your side, argue the facts. And if neither the facts nor the law are on your side- pound the table and shout a lot".

We have arrived upon the sunny shores of society as a whole simply fast-forwarding to the shouting and pounding.

It's now been a month since the fire. We're still living in a hotel, and probably will be for a couple more months- we can't get into our new apartment until mid-July, and the insurance people are hemming and hawing about putting us in a better place temporarily. It'd sure be nice to be in a place where we could cook real food for ourselves... Nobody will rent to people with two dogs and two cats, so we are also being forced to downsize the family a little. That stings.

I'm so very sorry to hear about Ms. Davis. It seems that a lot of us are grieving right now. It should always be remembered that grief comes in waves- some days are much, much better than others. Also, remember that grief compounds: when a new disaster arrives while one is still processing some previous disaster(s), it stacks up and all comes at you at once. Regrettably, new grief doesn't wait politely until the grieving of the previous disaster(s) has been adequately managed. Darn.

We watched last week as the very last of our stuff was summarily dispatched into a dumpster, while still grieving the fact that the world is incurably upgefuckt. But we'll make it though, somehow, if we are still breathing. There is no other option. As good ol' atheist me has pointed out to my dear wife, many times: "This is why Gawd gave us alcohol. And weed"...

Be safe out there!

shit if you ask me. Old adage "And the truth shall set you free" Yeah? The truth is that you ain't free and knowing it doesn't help. TRUTH, n. An ingenious compound of desirability and appearance. Discovery of truth is the sole purpose of philosophy, which is the most ancient occupation of the human mind and has a fair prospect of existing with increasing activity to the end of time. TRUTHFUL, adj. Dumb and illiterate. - Ambrose Bierce "I wish to propose a doctrine ... which may, I fear, appear wholly paradoxical and subversive. The doctrine in question is this: that it is undesirable to believe in a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing that it is true." - Bertrand Russell - The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way. Persecution is used in theology, not in arithmetic, because in arithmetic there is knowledge, but in theology there is only opinion. So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. - Bertrand Russell- It has been proposed that we live in a post-truth age or era. I disagree. We are however, living in a post evidence era, which makes the truth and or facts difficult to arrive at and support. Evidence is simply never presented and or withheld and or fabricated and only evidence can establish facts and truth with the exception of "holy truths" or "sunday truths" and "legal facts". In our courts the parties can stipulate (to) certain facts, taking them off of the table, this is useful, sometimes even if they cannot be established with certainty (cross-reference "assuming arguendo...") You do know that Descartes cheated, right? Cogito my ass. 1) used petitio principii and 2) Deus ex machina. So where was I? It used to be said that everybody is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts, but those days are gone. We make maps and models, which evolve as our "knowledge" and "information" grows, but that presumes persons of honesty, integrity and good will collaborate both formally and informally to seek out and objectively determine and report that which can be discerned. What, all 3 or 4 of them? Yeah, suuure. There is great motive, great bindles of motives and rewards awaiting those who obfuscate and fabricate and, as always in human affairs, "cui bono" rules the day. And that's a fact. be well and have a good one edit, you do know instead of you do now --

—

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Submitted by Sima on Tue, 04/26/2022 - 4:46am

Thank you for your sage words

@usefewersyllables
on grief. I forgot, or didn't want to remember, how it compounds as one thing after another happens.

Here's to both of us, and all our loved ones, getting through our grief and coming out into a better world. Or at least, a less stressful one. I think I'd have to move onto the streets if I had to get rid of my dog, such damned grief.

—

If you're poor now, my friend, then you'll stay poor.
These days, only the rich get given more. -- Martial book 5:81, c. AD 100 or so
Nothing ever changes -- Sima, c. AD 2020 or so

Submitted by Lookout on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:01am

Along with fact is fake...

as in I don't like your facts, they are fake news.

If TPTB don't like your facts, you will be canceled. No unacceptable views allowed.

What an odd place in which we find ourselves.

I'm glad Stephen let us know about Wendy passing.

Well, have a nice day. I'm off to B'ham tomorrow for my Mom's 90th B'day, so see you around on Sunday or maybe later today.

Thanks for the OT.

—

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Submitted by JtC on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:05am

Fake facts...

@Lookout
not an oxymoron in today's world.

I'm off to mow, have a great trip and Happy Birthday Mom!

Submitted by aliasalias on Sat, 04/23/2022 - 4:00pm

It's 57 degrees but beautiful here in B'ham today. Enjoy it.

@Lookout

Submitted by lotlizard on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:12am

What I learned from Daily Kos: to most folk, facts don’t matter…

Most just skip ahead and jump right into what for them is actually the emotionally rewarding part: the insults and name-calling.

Good-faith, reasoned, well-founded argument and rebuttal? Only for naïve newbies and saps.

Submitted by ggersh on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:12am

Caitlin captures the difference between

facts and real facts

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/04/22/shitlibs-are-foam-brained-human-...

When empire managers say "the spread of disinformation" they always mean "the spread of unauthorized information". https://t.co/Q8gLmURXBr

— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) April 20, 2022

—

I never knew that the term "Never Again" only pertained to
those born Jewish

"Antisemite used to be someone who didn't like Jews
now it's someone who Jews don't like"

Heard from Margaret Kimberley

Submitted by Tall Bald and Ugly on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:59am

Words

fail
real tears
rest in Power
beautiful Lady

—

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . . still waiting. . .

If you’ve ever wondered whether you would have complied in 1930’s Germany,
Now you know. . .
sign at protest march

Submitted by QMS on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 2:20pm

Know nothing about all that

except for ..

Keeping the peace

[video:https://youtu.be/HExjPn547Z0

[video:https://youtu.be/sdPJFXBnUbc]

Don't know why these videos won't post, had two cat Stevens set up
squirrel shit

Submitted by on the cusp on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 2:40pm

Here's one of them

@QMS @QMS

edit: go to You tube to play it. I did, copied it, but it shows up same way yours did.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by wouldsman on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 2:30pm

So sad to hear of Wendy's passing,

I always enjoyed her posts. Peace be with you.

Submitted by QMS on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 6:33pm

For Wendy

[video:https://youtu.be/NgIDLSvnENM]

Submitted by stephenadavis1 on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 9:15pm

Another thank you

I really want to thank you all once again for all the kind words for Wendy and her work here at C99. Also the very moving and lovely verse and music. She would have been very appreciative of all the warm thoughts, well wishes and contributions both on this essay and also on Sima's open thread from yesterday - as am I. I spent some of today reading and listening to them all several times, emptying a box of Puffs as I did.

Grieving is such difficult but very necessary work. She was a grand soul and my partner, ever present friend, and love of my life for fifty years. I miss her more than I can ever say.

Here is another song that she loved and often played.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:19pm

Thank you for being with us now

@stephenadavis1

I can only imagine how much you miss Wendy and I hope that our words here have brought you some comfort. So beautifully said:

Grieving is such difficult but very necessary work. She was a grand soul and my partner, ever present friend, and love of my life for fifty years. I miss her more than I can ever say.

One of the reasons I love looking at the stars.

I hope you will continue to visit with us and I’d love to hear more about Wendy.

—

Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?

Submitted by on the cusp on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 10:55pm

I meant to send my song

@stephenadavis1 to you, and sent it to snoopy instead.
Anyway, stay. Stay.
We will get you though this.
Another try:

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by on the cusp on Fri, 04/22/2022 - 9:16pm

JtC,

I lost 3 emails on my business email account. They disappeared.
At least, I got to read the threatening, insulting one from an attorney who knows no other way to communicate. He was bitching that I had to provide him with requests for documents, and NO OBJECTIONS WOULD BE ALLOWED. Except I had provided them, had even supplemented them, to the attorney he had substituted in for. I even beat the deadline for furnishing them.
Oh, and I have not been provided with his required document production, and I will accept NO OBJECTIONS.
Vanishing internet thing is just a "thing".
Lovely of you to bring up Wendy. I should write a "Couples Cooking" goofy essay, since she got a kick out of them.

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by Blue Republic on Sun, 04/24/2022 - 7:30am

Wendy was the first

member I was ever messaged by here, apologizing for not responding to a comment (my 9th ever here) about John Trudell - somewhere in the comment thread to an essay of hers that didn't get a lot of traction at the time, but is certainly relevant now and worth a look - about the US' Deep State war agenda and Ukraine as a vehicle for that.

This taking place during the Trump impeachment hearings - posted 11/24/19:

https://caucus99percent.com/content/wsws-blows-lid-days-3-4-impeachment-hearings

Among the quotes from that:
(from Andre Damon - World Socialist Web Site)

If the alleged “organized crime shakedown” by Trump was the “good” reason for the impeachment inquiry, the “real” reason has emerged over two weeks of public congressional hearings. The hearings have lifted the lid on a massive US conspiracy to spend billions of dollars to overthrow the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 and foment a civil war that has led to the deaths of thousands of people.

The impeachment drive is itself the product of efforts by sections of the intelligence agencies and elements within the State Department to escalate Washington’s conflict with Russia, with potentially world-catastrophic consequences.

Ya think maybe?

and:
(from Patrick Martin)

“This utterly reactionary, pro-imperialist role was demonstrated Friday in the tribute that Yovanovitch paid, in the course of her testimony, to Arsen Avakov, the Ukrainian interior minister (head of the domestic police) under both the current president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and his predecessor Petro Poroshenko. Avakov is a principal sponsor of fascist militias such as the Azov Battalion, which glorify the Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis during World War II against the Soviet Union. In other words, the State Department officials being celebrated in the media for defending American democracy are actually working with the fascists in Ukraine.

(Yovanovitch was US ambassador to Ukraine)

And three years later, they still are.

OK, Wendy thanks for the good vibes and reality checks. Maybe you'll meet up with John Trudell on the other side somewhere.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 04/24/2022 - 8:05am

Thanks for linking that!

@Blue Republic

It’s an important thread to read as a refresher for how long the Ukraine had been set in motion before Russia took action.

member I was ever messaged by here, apologizing for not responding to a comment (my 9th ever here) about John Trudell - somewhere in the comment thread to an essay of hers that didn't get a lot of traction at the time, but is certainly relevant now and worth a look - about the US' Deep State war agenda and Ukraine as a vehicle for that. This taking place during the Trump impeachment hearings - posted 11/24/19: https://caucus99percent.com/content/wsws-blows-lid-days-3-4-impeachment-hearings Among the quotes from that: (from Andre Damon - World Socialist Web Site) If the alleged “organized crime shakedown” by Trump was the “good” reason for the impeachment inquiry, the “real” reason has emerged over two weeks of public congressional hearings. The hearings have lifted the lid on a massive US conspiracy to spend billions of dollars to overthrow the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 and foment a civil war that has led to the deaths of thousands of people. The impeachment drive is itself the product of efforts by sections of the intelligence agencies and elements within the State Department to escalate Washington’s conflict with Russia, with potentially world-catastrophic consequences. Ya think maybe? and: (from Patrick Martin) “This utterly reactionary, pro-imperialist role was demonstrated Friday in the tribute that Yovanovitch paid, in the course of her testimony, to Arsen Avakov, the Ukrainian interior minister (head of the domestic police) under both the current president, Volodymyr Zelensky, and his predecessor Petro Poroshenko. Avakov is a principal sponsor of fascist militias such as the Azov Battalion, which glorify the Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis during World War II against the Soviet Union. In other words, the State Department officials being celebrated in the media for defending American democracy are actually working with the fascists in Ukraine. (Yovanovitch was US ambassador to Ukraine) And three years later, they still are. OK, Wendy thanks for the good vibes and reality checks. Maybe you'll meet up with John Trudell on the other side somewhere.

—

Was Humpty Dumpty pushed?

Submitted by stephenadavis1 on Mon, 04/25/2022 - 8:13am

Trudell

Thanks also for bringing John. Wendy was one of his biggest admirers. I to have thought she would look for him when she arrived on the next world. As he was near death he said that "his ride" had come for him and I spoke that idea in her ear, in hopes that it would comfort her as she began to leave this world.

Here is another brilliant piece that he composed near the end of his time on this planet.

Submitted by travelerxxx on Tue, 05/24/2022 - 1:20am

Wendy

@stephenadavis1

So a month later and I'm just today learning of dear Wendy's passing.

She was always especially kind to me ...to all, it seems. She leaves a void, but we're all richer for having her as a friend.