Welcome to Saturday's Potluck - 11-27-2021

Submitted by studentofearth on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 5:43am

“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”
Pablo Picasso

Hope Thanksgiving weekend has been enjoyable. Focused on the simple pleasures of life this week.

The desire to understand contemporary events to often conflicts with state secrecy and individuals hiding their actions. Living with the knowledge the truth of many events will probably not be known within our lifetime is very frustrating. Occasionally it is a long, long time, but the full story is finally is revealed.

And this just in from the 13th century: What did the popes (secretly) say to the Mongols?

This is pretty stilted, but there’s a fascinating story behind it all. As this piece points out, these eight letters have been in the Vatican’s secret archives for nearly 800 years. Scholars have been able to access them since 1881, but not the general public.

What I found out is that the Montsame piece only told a portion of the story.

What’s not told is how Catholic Christianity had a real chance to convert the sons and grandsons of Genghis Khan, but muffed it.

A couple of minutes to visualize the location and size of the Mongol Empire.
[video:https://youtu.be/PpT2xaIc90I?t=296]

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtymGMRc91E]

________

What is on your mind today? (Responses to Covid questions and dialog to be conducted at The Dose diary)

Tags:

Open Thread

Saturday

Vote

Comments

Submitted by Lookout on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 9:03am

The mongols were lucky

the papacy blew it and they escaped the Holy Empire's grip.

Went to a nice museum exhibit on the Mongols in Atlanta many years ago that was quite interesting.

They issued the first passports and promoted diplomacy

Though they were warriors...

they also were artists...

...and musicians

living comfortably

as their empire grew

that is until it fell

Thanks for the OT and interesting east-west saga.

—

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Submitted by studentofearth on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 10:21pm

Thanks for the exhibit photos

@Lookout Museum visiting was a favorite passtime when traveling.

—

Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Submitted by enhydra lutris on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 10:38am

Heh, phraseology is everything, it seems.

What’s not told is how Catholic Christianity had a real chance to convert the sons and grandsons of Genghis Khan, but muffed it.

And a damned good thing too! The Mongols generally demanded political submission but were not culturally narrow minded, intermarried, adopted many local customs and generally tolerated most local customs, etc. Assuming that the Papacy could've converted them all to Papal Christianity the world would've been much worse. The massacres and genocides would've been unimaginable.

The Official (Papist) Christians were not so open minded and wanted complete and total intellectual, cultural and ideological uniformity right down to minute details, hence the various inquisitions and crusades, including those where they declared genocidal crusades against fellow Christians who did not dot all their "i"s and cross all their "t"s in exactly the approved manner, and wear all of the exact required garments while performing the exact required rituals at the precisely dictated times and intervals. Example, the Albigensian Crusades, not too widely bragged about by The Church today, and only by that name and not the real one, the Cathar Genocide. Then there were the Northern Crusades, continuing the great holy program of conversion of all pagandom by force through the slaughter of all pagans who wouldn't convert.

The idea that THE Church could've converted the Mongols simply because some Mongols had ostensibly "Christian" wives is simply silly. It is significant that the Pope simply ordered the Mongols to cease and desist; the time period in question was not remotely ecumenical from a Christian perspective. While the Mongols were knocking on Moscow's door, Nevsky kicked ass on the Teutonic Knights at The Battle On The Ice, aka The Battle of Lake Peipus. Had he failed to do so, the Knights would've continued eastward with a holy mission to exterminate all pagans in their path, which would've been the Mongols, who were most unlikely to have been "converted" in the warfare which would've followed.

be well and have a good one

—

That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

Submitted by Dawn's Meta on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 3:03pm

Coincidence...looking up Cathars in France because

@enhydra lutris we had visited the keep at Mauvezin. It was a Cathar stronghold which Pope Innocent III (now there's a name) made a treaty and invited everyone to the signing of the document and ordered the locals all killed. The history is present and palpable. Heck they still talk about Vercingetorix and the last battles of the Gauls against Rome.

Wiki has a great article on the Albigensian Crusades.
Cathars

Long history of proto protestants and the church in Rome.

I am also so glad there was no successful conversion to Western Christianity.

This is a complicated and busy time in history. Surprising how much people got around.

What’s not told is how Catholic Christianity had a real chance to convert the sons and grandsons of Genghis Khan, but muffed it.

And a damned good thing too! The Mongols generally demanded political submission but were not culturally narrow minded, intermarried, adopted many local customs and generally tolerated most local customs, etc. Assuming that the Papacy could've converted them all to Papal Christianity the world would've been much worse. The massacres and genocides would've been unimaginable.

The Official (Papist) Christians were not so open minded and wanted complete and total intellectual, cultural and ideological uniformity right down to minute details, hence the various inquisitions and crusades, including those where they declared genocidal crusades against fellow Christians who did not dot all their "i"s and cross all their "t"s in exactly the approved manner, and wear all of the exact required garments while performing the exact required rituals at the precisely dictated times and intervals. Example, the Albigensian Crusades, not too widely bragged about by The Church today, and only by that name and not the real one, the Cathar Genocide. Then there were the Northern Crusades, continuing the great holy program of conversion of all pagandom by force through the slaughter of all pagans who wouldn't convert.

The idea that THE Church could've converted the Mongols simply because some Mongols had ostensibly "Christian" wives is simply silly. It is significant that the Pope simply ordered the Mongols to cease and desist; the time period in question was not remotely ecumenical from a Christian perspective. While the Mongols were knocking on Moscow's door, Nevsky kicked ass on the Teutonic Knights at The Battle On The Ice, aka The Battle of Lake Peipus. Had he failed to do so, the Knights would've continued eastward with a holy mission to exterminate all pagans in their path, which would've been the Mongols, who were most unlikely to have been "converted" in the warfare which would've followed.

be well and have a good one

—

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

Submitted by QMS on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 1:37pm

Happy to hear you are able to take it easy

With the simple pleasures of life.
Thanks for hosting!

Submitted by on the cusp on Sat, 11/27/2021 - 1:42pm

I toyed with the idea

of booking a tour to Mongolia. A pal who has traveled Russia fairly extensively said it would be very boring. once you've seen the reindeer, then what? Well, I would have enjoyed some horseback riding.
One day...

—

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Submitted by randtntx on Sun, 11/28/2021 - 6:13am

That's really interesting

about Genghis Khan and religious freedom. The fun fact about the one footnote among 2,000 in Gibbon's history that refers to Khan's stance on religious freedom influencing our founders is pretty neat. I have yet to finish both videos but hope to watch in full. Thanks for posting.