How China deals with corporate corruption

Submitted by gjohnsit on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 5:33pm

We all know how white-collar crime is punished in the United States - it isn't.
At best there is a fine of less than the amount that was originally stolen. Sometimes the CEO loses his job, but not without a golden parachute.
Basically, there are no consequences in corporate America for fraud, corruption, or incompetence.
It's the exact opposite of how capitalism is supposed to function.

Let's contrast this with how China deals with their corporate leaders.
Let's start with Evergrande, since it's been in the news. Evergrande isn't going bankrupt from corruption (that I am aware of), but simply because it's been poorly managed.
How do you think officials reacted to this situation?

Chinese authorities have a message for Hui Ka Yan, the founder of Evergrande: The buck stops with you.

Chinese authorities issued a directive for him to use his personal wealth to help pay off some of the sprawling property developer’s debt, Bloomberg reported. The order came after Evergrande missed a coupon payment for a dollar bond on Sept. 23.

Evergrande’s liabilities swelled to as much as $300 billion at the end of June. Hui wouldn’t be able to make much of a dent in that on his own, though, because his net worth stands at about $7.8 billion now, a fraction of the $42 billion he had four years ago.

What a concept! The billionaire executive of a company has to pay for his mismanagement.
Now let's look at what is essentially the untouchable criminal class in America - bankers.
China has a slightly different way of dealing with their bankers.

A Chinese court has sentenced a former banker and party official to death, in a high-profile bribery, embezzlement and bigamy case that has shocked the country.

Lai Xiaomin, previously chairman of one of China’s “big four” state-controlled asset management firms, China Huarong Asset Management Co, had pleaded guilty to the dozens of charges. He had been accused of soliciting almost 1.79bn yuan ($276.7m) in bribes over 10 years, a period when he was also acting as a regulator. The Tianjin court said Lai had abused his position to obtain the “extremely large” bribes, and the circumstances were “particularly serious”, including taking bribes to get people jobs, promotions or contracts.

I approve! Something tells me that executing a couple Wall Street bankers would go a long ways towards changing corporate culture there.
About eight years ago China realized that they had a corruption problem, so they launched a massive anti-corruption program.

China has punished more than one million officials for corruption over the past three years, the government says.
Another 409 people, said to be fugitives, have been detained overseas this year.

So what sort of response in the political/corporate environment do you think this caused?

The surge follows the discipline committee's January 2020 decision that officials who voluntarily surrendered would be shown leniency, while those repeatedly accepting bribes would be dealt with harshly.

People voluntarily surrendering roughly doubled from just over 5,000 between October 2017 and the end of 2018 to 10,357 in 2019 and then climbed 54% in 2020, according to the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, the party's top anti-graft body.

High-profile cases last year include a former Qinghai Province vice governor found to have ignored illegal coal mining, and a party chief of the Hebei Province city of Handan.

What do you know? When you actually punish corruption, it makes a difference!
Who knew?

Tags: 
China
corruption
corporations
Share
up
24 users have voted.

Comments

Submitted by CB on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 6:27pm
CB's picture

need to destroy China. China's government works for its citizens - not it's billionaires. They have no intention of allowing these companies to rape and pillage Chinese citizens and walk away like their American counterparts did in 2008.

Why China Is Cracking Down on Its Technology Giants: QuickTake

China’s hands-off approach to the technology sector has minted billionaires and giant companies at a breathtaking pace. Now President Xi Jinping’s government is reining in the country’s most powerful corporations, including Alibaba Group Holding Ltd., Tencent Holdings Ltd and Didi Global Inc., along with their ultra-rich founders...
...
1. Who is China targeting?

Maintaining social stability is one of the signature goals of Xi and the ruling Chinese Communist Party, so any company or person it perceives as threatening that can find themselves in the cross-hairs. Such a sweeping definition also means just about any large business could find itself the subject of a crackdown....
...
2. How is China cracking down?

With fines, regulatory orders and forced restructurings. In late July China ordered more than two dozen tech companies to carry out internal inspections and address issues such as data security. Earlier, Ant, which was about to go public before being stopped by regulators in November 2020, agreed to turn itself into a financial holding company, making it subject to capital requirements similar to those for banks....
...
3. How much is at stake?

To cite just one example, measures proposed to curb market concentration in China’s online payments market could slash Ant’s valuation by roughly two-thirds to just over $100 billion, according to Bloomberg Intelligence. It could also endanger the growth of Tencent’s fintech division, estimated to be worth $120 billion before the crackdown. Meituan shed $60 billion of market value in just two trading sessions after regulators ordered food platforms to ensure delivery workers earn at least the local minimum income and TAL’s shares dropped 71% the day changes to after-school tutoring were reported.
...
4. What explains the crackdown?

Some analysts and investors say regulators are simply reasserting their oversight power, or maybe those in power grew frustrated with the swagger of tech billionaires and wanted to teach them a lesson....More broadly, Xi’s administration blames widening social disparities on the online boom, particularly in the pandemic era, and is moving to address discontent among the populace that could threaten its authority.

5. Is there more coming?

It seems so. Xi has declared he will go after “platform” companies that amass data and market power. His administration is particularly concerned about eradicating systemic risks -- such as unsupervised growth of consumer debt -- in part to ensure the Communist Party’s dominion....
...
9. How is big technology responding?

All of the companies are pledging to atone for their transgressions, a common response when China applies scrutiny. Some high profile deals have been scrapped, including the IPO of e-commerce startup Xiaohongshu and a merger of video game streamers that was valued at $6 billion when it was proposed. But that hasn’t stopped Tencent’s deal to buy the rest of British game maker Sumo Group for more than $1 billion. Some tycoons are donating billions from their vast fortunes to charities amid the rising concern about inequality. Xiaomi Corp. co-founder Lei Jun handed over $2.2 billion of shares in the smartphone maker to two foundations and Meituan’s Wang Xing gave away a $2.3 billion stake. ByteDance’s Zhang Yiming gave about $77 million to an education fund in his hometown while Tencent’s Ma has pledged $7.7 billion of the company’s money toward curing societal ills.

It's too bad the average American can't scare their government and make it behave like the Chinese can.

up
14 users have voted.
Submitted by gjohnsit on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 6:35pm

@CB
Because three different times in the past 120 years the population of China has launched successful revolutions.
And at the end of those revolutions they took took a significant percentage of the ruling elites, lined them up against a wall, and shot them.

up
17 users have voted.
Submitted by CB on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 7:10pm
CB's picture

@gjohnsit

up
13 users have voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 1:16am
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@CB

China's government works for its citizens - not it's billionaires. They have no intention of allowing these companies to rape and pillage Chinese citizens and walk away like their American counterparts did in 2008.

I see no reason to believe this; the CCP works for the CCP, and I would not - perhaps could not - live under the likes of them.

The enemy of my enemy is just that, and nothing more.

As I've said before, I foresee a "Right-Libertarian" near-future, more "Wild West" than the actual "Wild West" was; nobody my age, let alone younger, knows anything about "good government" but what sound like fairy-tales of Camelot passed down to us, and the "life" we are now being expected to live can only be borne for so long before people start asking themselves the serious, ugly questions about mortality and morality (as a matter of fact, I think some already are; they're just either invisible or vilified beyond recognition), most never fully realizing how sorely it didn't need to be this way.

Scylla VS Charybdis...
Clinton VS Trump...
Syphilis VS Gonnorrhea...
Jihad VS McWorld...

up
5 users have voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 5:12am
CB's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

I see no reason to believe this; the CCP works for the CCP, and I would not - perhaps could not - live under the likes of them.

Their civilization is 5,000 years old - compared to ours at 250. The US has barely formed a cohesive country (many would even dispute that) and is already starting to come apart at the seams.

The fact is the majority of the 1.4 billion Chinese currently support their government. What they want are better opportunities and a cleaner environment. This is similar to 1950's America when the ordinary working people were also facing a bright future.

Harvard survey finds Chinese satisfaction with govt rises

A Harvard University survey has found that Chinese citizens' satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board, with the central authorities receiving the strongest level of approval, increasing from 86 percent to 93 percent between 2003 and 2016, the period of the study.

Grassroots officials were also rated far more as "problem solvers" and "concerned with the difficulties of ordinary people" and far less as "beholden to the wealthy" and "only concerned about their own interests" by the end of the study, which was released last week by Harvard's Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation.

The landmark report, "Understanding CCP Resilience: Surveying Chinese Public Opinion Through Time", presents responses that sometimes surprised its researchers and shed light on the close rapport between the Communist Party of China and the people in the world's second-largest economy.

'Near-universal increase'

This is the longest academic study of Chinese public opinion ever conducted by a research institution based outside China. It involved in-person interviews with more than 31,000 individuals in urban and rural areas and used "the most objective and quantitative methods" currently available, according to the report's authors, led by Ash Center China Programs Director Edward Cunningham.

"The most striking feature of our survey's data since 2003 is the near-universal increase in Chinese citizens' average satisfaction toward all four levels of government," the researchers said, referring to governments at township, county, province and central levels.
...

up
8 users have voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 6:24am
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@CB ...and I find your headline gets rather far under my skin. I think, at a minimum, you do both their complexity and my worldliness a disservice. I spent my formative years in a majority-Oriental (to use a broad but sufficiently-accurate term) area, for goodness' sake.

That aside, I am not terribly surprised by your data...but note well the timespan. A LOT has happened since that study concluded, and I'm sure you know what they say about what constitutes "a long time in politics".

If China really is still like the US in the 1950s...well, the '90s were an optimistic time too, and heck, so were the '20s.

Peer into the details beneath the grandiose banners of nations, and I find they occlude far more than they show; woe to any who begin to neglect the significance of those particulars (as state and corporate governments across the world, China most certainly included, have been doing).

up
5 users have voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 12:34pm
CB's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

I see no reason to believe this; the CCP works for the CCP, and I would not - perhaps could not - live under the likes of them.

I doubt that I could either. I had the freedom of a Huckleberry Finn childhood. I was a latchkey kid since I was ten. I had my own raft and island where I killed pigeons and rabbits to cook over an open fire along with stolen potatoes.

Historically the Chinese have more of a collectivist mentality compared to the strong individualism in America.

Since curbing the COVID-19 pandemic, the Chinese are now even MORE supportive and proud of their government. The Chinese recognize their governments unprecedented efforts at alleviating poverty throughout the country. There is no other country in the world that has matched these efforts.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTXlIaIqLLU]
China pulled 850 million people out of poverty by improving infrastructure, investment and entrepreneurship. What lessons can the rest of the world take from China's experience?

up
2 users have voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 3:05pm
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@CB

Historically the Chinese have more of a collectivist mentality compared to the strong individualism in America.

One ALWAYS hears this, and I don't buy it; America was famously described as "a nation of joiners", and there is nothing ihdividualistic or liberal about the body-horror collectivism of Christianity. If anything, I see at the fundamental level the inverse of the above cliche.

I think that once one starts speaking in such inherently provincial/arbitrary terms as cardinal compass directions, one has already boarded somebody else's ill-conceived and ill-fated vessel (I'm a native Californian; when you speak of "Western civilization", do you mean Japan?). I mean, look who's using that terminology; Kissinger. Think maybe it has anything to do with his worldview?

I see no room in any of this for even acknowledging the existence of the divisions that have long concerned me most, such as the struggle between Imperial Abrahamism and paganism (AKA 'everything else'); it takes the ideas I've spent years seriously contemplating yet struggling to voice due to unique personal setbacks, and makes it impossible to even begin to contemplate them.

For that matter, what ever happened to "if the differences WITHIN groups outweigh the differences BETWEEN groups, then the latter are so insignificant as to be deceptive"? This is a staple principle of sociological reasoning I was taught as a college freshman, yet all the discourse of the past 6 years especially has a total violation of it; it could've and should've halted this devolutionary charge the instant it started...so why didn't it?

People fled Maoism for a reason; the CCP would love for us all to believe they are the true heirs to the totality of Chinese history...but Taiwan and countless immigrants to the US and elsewhere would beg to differ.

up
1 user has voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 5:25pm
CB's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwYu02BTL4s]

A Look at Collectivist China Through the Eyes of Individualistic America
China We — America I

Introduction

One of the cultural dimensions identified by the anthropologist Geert Hofstede describes the difference between collectivism and individualism. This article attempts to contrast the differences between China collectivist nature against the United States’ individualist culture. It looks at various behaviors from both countries and attempts to explain them to the reader in the most cogent way possible.

The article is divided into the following sections:

  • Hollywood and Individualism
  • Individualism vs. Collectivism
  • Collectivists Behaviors
  • Comparing Classroom Behavior
  • Communal Dining
  • Collectivism and Individualism in Business
  • Collectivism and Individualism in Government

...
Individualism vs. Collectivism

From a more scientific perspective, individualism as described by Geert Hofstede is a loosely knit social framework in which individuals are expected to take care of themselves and their immediate families only. These cultures exhibit a high degree of independence among their members, and people’s self-image is defined in terms of “I.” Governments of individualistic societies protect the individual through the notion of liberty and justice for all as well as equal rights to all.

These societies are known for equal sharing of information, accessibility of superiors and managers, informal communication, difficulty especially among men to develop deep friendships contrasted by an ease of interacting and talking to complete strangers. Also, within the work place, hiring, promotion and decisions are mostly based on merit or evidence of what one has done or can do, rather than titles, family or social connections.

On the other hand, collectivist societies have a preference for tight-knit social networks in which they can expect their relatives as well as member of a larger in-group to look after them. These cultures are extremely group oriented in which decisions are based on what is best for the collective. People’s identity is based on structured social system that normally allow for less social mobility.

Political power and rights are typically more geared toward interest groups. Among these cultures belonging is greatly emphasized and invasion of private lives by institutions and organizations to which people belong, is accepted and even expected.
...
Ultimately, collectivist cultures aim to be harmonious, obedient, conformative, yielding to authority and to those whose position in society are at a higher level. Students are expected to listen, and classes are geared toward memorization, rather than learning how to learn as it is the norm in individualistic societies. In addition these cultures are subject to tradition and oftentimes superstitions.

Naturally, individualistic and collectivist cultures exhibit many other types of social behaviors that reflect in whether people’s self-image is defined in terms of “I” or in terms of “we.” Of course if you want to experience a collectivist society, most anthropologists will tell you, there is no better place than China.
...

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 10:47pm
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@CB I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that I haven't already addressed; we don't seem to be on the same page here - and that's assuming we're not just plain talking past each other.

Speaking of which:

I had my own raft and island where I killed pigeons and rabbits to cook over an open fire along with stolen potatoes.

Really??? Neither of us may be Chinese, but if you literally mean this, you and I are clearly not from anything like the same country ourselves.

up
2 users have voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 11:47pm
CB's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat @The Liberal Moonbat
Get a 22 for your 16th birthday? Didn't you go camping, boating, fishing, hunting and "living off the land" during summer holidays? That's what I was doing in the late 50's.

Maybe you were a city boy...

Edit: I only killed an animal for food. Now that I'm a lot older, I leave the killing for the meat suppliers to the supermarket like everyone else.

up
0 users have voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 10:30am
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@CB "The late '50s" were when my mother was a schoolgirl and my father was born.

I spent my 16th birthday toiling over a term paper, with breaks only for a sushi dinner and presents that, while I forget specifics, probably consisted mainly of computer games.

up
1 user has voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by janis b on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 11:44pm
janis b's picture

@The Liberal Moonbat

Speaking of which:

I had my own raft and island where I killed pigeons and rabbits to cook over an open fire along with stolen potatoes.

I didn't find it in the link that CB posted.

up
2 users have voted.
Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 11:58pm
CB's picture

@janis b

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by janis b on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 12:03am
janis b's picture

@CB

about where this conversation is from and going.

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by CB on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 12:37am
CB's picture

@janis b

up
0 users have voted.
Submitted by janis b on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 12:43am
janis b's picture

@CB

[video:https://youtu.be/uw66FA6OTqA]

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by The Voice In th... on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 10:45am

@CB
And Communism is far less than 5,000 years old.

up
2 users have voted.
—

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 12:37pm

@The Voice In the Wilderness
It may require more nuance, but I think that Americans have trouble with the idea that not everyone shares American values.
One of my favorite stories about Chinese culture is when Kissinger was meeting with the Chinese ambassador in the early 70's, and he asked him what he thought of the impact on the French Revolution on western civilization.
After pausing to consider, the Chinese ambassador said, "It's too soon to tell."

Two centuries was "too soon".

For over 2,000 years the main "religions" in China was Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism. None of those three have an all-powerful deity.

I could go on. I'm just saying that I don't think that Americans appreciate just how ignorant we are of China.

up
5 users have voted.
Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 1:32pm
CB's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness @The Voice In the Wilderness
as a country. You have to admit that the country has been formed from a "melting pot" of dozens of cultures that have disappeared in less than two generations. That makes it fairly unique in the world. Even Canada didn't have as great an admixture going on.

In China they still have 56 distinct cultures that have developed over the 5 millennia of their existence who are still supported. The one-child policy mainly focused on curbing the birthrate of the Han. Most ethnic groups were exempt or limited to 3 births.

That's why so many of these ethnic groups have survived and flourished until today.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH4CwC6jhTA]

Chinese took communism and twisted it to such an extent that we can no longer recognize it. It would better be described as Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. Mao Zedong, said that the Chinese New Democracy was neither the socialism of the proletariat nor the democracy of the bourgeoisie:

Proletarian Dictatorship Vs Bourgeois Democracy.

up
4 users have voted.
Submitted by The Voice In th... on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 4:43pm

@CB
You are comaring apples to orannges. Either compare civilizations or states.
But you cite the USA as a state and the Peoples' Republic as a civilization.

The CPR is just the latest in a series of dynasties and I'll bet Karl Marx is spinning in his grave over a Communist state with a stock market and corporations.

Granted the CPR controls its corporations unlike the USA which is the other way around.

up
3 users have voted.
—

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 10:36pm
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness What happens to CCP brass when THEY do wrong?

What would happen if "Winnie the Pooh" were caught in a honeypot-trap?

The fact that they go to great lengths just to prevent people from making that most innocuous of jokes about is hardly a good sign.

The closest thing to "collectivism" that doesn't translate to de facto autocracy I can even think of would be the notorious 4Chan in its heyday; even Twitter's wolf-packs have their personality-cult-icons.

"The Group" is merely the ultimate selfish individual, like ants, nationalists of any variety, Star Trek's Borg, or Marvel's Phalanx (I wonder if they'll make it into a movie?); the Christian (and Marxist) models of how morality work are catastrophically backwards, and I assert, by way of stark contrast, that the autistic mind is proof.

up
0 users have voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by Shahryar on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 9:49pm
Shahryar's picture

because those in charge think "I'd like to do that myself". By "those in charge" I mean, of course, politicians and the judiciary.

up
16 users have voted.
Submitted by janis b on Sun, 10/31/2021 - 11:38pm
janis b's picture

@Shahryar

Thanks

up
7 users have voted.
Submitted by The Liberal Moonbat on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 12:39am
The Liberal Moonbat's picture

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/iran-bank-fraud_n_1720906

4 people were hanged, and many more punished in other ways, including up-to-life prison sentences; I like to think we were ALL Iranians that day.

The writing is on the wall, and has been for DECADES; we know what the solution would be, we know what hasn't and isn't about to be...and we know that in the meantime, the toll in innocent fates just keeps mounting.

Will no one rid us of these turbulent oligarchs???

up
6 users have voted.
—

In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.

Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!

Submitted by MrWebster on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 7:09am

In China, the CCP/government controls capital. This according Eric X. Li who is a mainland Chinese venture capitalist and political scientist. I would recommend videos of him on YouTube where he explains and defends socialism with Chinese characteristics.

I do know about of at least two men involved in tainted milk scandal who were executed a number of years ago. Which a Chinese buddy said even today that one of thee most sought after item in China is Western produced baby formula.

But the Chinese have set up two programs called Operation Sky Net and Fox Hunt to go after fugitive executives, company officials, etc. accused of corruption and other crimes in China. My sense is that corrupt American CEOs, etc. don't need to become fugitives as nothing bad except fines, etc. will be their punishment. Look at HSBC which money laundered Mexican drug cartel monies and nothing but a tax deductible fine. In their case they were actually warned about money laundering activities at their bank and did nothing.

up
11 users have voted.
Submitted by Dawn's Meta on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 8:09am
Dawn's Meta's picture

that there is any question the French had a hand in the development of the BSL 4 lab in Wuhan.

A casual search with Brave brought up a long string of results indicating that France supplied technical and supervisory expertise on the lab.

Many of the sources had an anti France or anti China or both slant to their reports. Many looked like they were from the same script.

On the other hand, many entrepreneurs in France were quite enthusiastic with the projects.

It was a public/private collaboration and apparently disagreement within France about the advisability of sharing highly technical information and expertise of French scientists with China.

The partnership lasted for many years ending mostly (from what I can tell) in 2017. It is murky what exactly happened.

The French lab partner is located in Lyon. Who knew?

The maximum-level biosafety laboratory at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the first of its kind to be built in China, and has been the centre of huge speculation since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic which originated in that city. The laboratory, which is equipped to handle Class 4 pathogens (P4) including dangerous viruses such as Ebola, was built with the help of French experts and under the guidance of French billionaire businessman Alain Mérieux, despite strong objections by health and defence officials in Paris. Since the laboratory's inauguration by prime minister Bernard Cazeneuve in 2017, however, France has had no supervisory role in the running of the facility and planned cooperation between French researchers and the laboratory has come to a grinding halt. Karl Laske and Jacques Massey report.

MediaPart - behind a paywall it seems.

The Jean Mérieux Laboratory in Lyon, France. (Photo by Jean-Philippe Ksiazek/AFP via Getty Images)

The Daily Caller

up
5 users have voted.
—

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

Submitted by The Voice In th... on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 4:45pm

@Dawn's Meta
I thought it was the CIA.

up
2 users have voted.
—

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Submitted by Dawn's Meta on Wed, 11/03/2021 - 6:30am
Dawn's Meta's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness parts to this whole episode, it would take a wall of white-boards to diagram everything out. And that's just what we can get our hands on.

up
1 user has voted.
—

A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit. Allegedly Greek, but more possibly fairly modern quote.

Consider helping by donating using the button in the upper left hand corner. Thank you.

Submitted by zed2 on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 7:06pm
zed2's picture

be "wilful" Dont foget that $10000 is like a years income in China. Serial cheats might get executed, but they tyoically serve as a deterrent to others. And the pain that many Americans have from seing the thieves get off scot free doesn't happen. After Chinese crooks are convicted they are usually executed the same day.

What is the US to do with people like Jeffrey Epstein and Jefrey Skiling, Kevin Lay and so on?

They likely would have burned up hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars with appeal after appeal.

Many people wonder if they even really died.
. (Its still not 100% certain to many people that Lay and Epstein are dead.) Many Americans are suspicious that the two insiders deaths were faked.

But, Their victims really need closure for their mental health.

up
2 users have voted.
Submitted by CB on Mon, 11/01/2021 - 8:59pm
CB's picture

@zed2
To get the death penalty, the crime has to fall under Article 264. It's brutal compared to America (or any of the western nations). Carrying a gun to commit a crime can get you the death sentence as can entering someone's home to commit robbery! I wonder just how large a "huge sum of money" would have to be?

Criminal Law of the People's Republic of China
Article 263

Whoever robs public or private property by violence, coercion or other methods shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not less than three years but not more than 10 years and shall also be fined; whoever falls under any of the following categories shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not less than 10 years, life imprisonment or death and shall also be fined or sentenced to confiscation of property:

  1. intruding into another person's residence to rob;
  2. robbing on board the means of public transportation;
  3. robbing a bank or any other banking institution;
  4. committing robbery repeatedly or robbing a huge sum of money;
  5. causing serious injury or death to another person in the course of robbery;
  6. impersonating a serviceman or policeman in robbing;
  7. robbing with a gun; or
  8. robbing military materials or the materials for emergency rescue, disaster relief or social relief.

Article 264

Whoever steals a relatively large amount of public or private property, commits thefts many times, commits a burglary or carries a lethal weapon to steal or pick pockets shall be sentenced to imprisonment of not more than 3 years, criminal detention or control and/or a fine; if the amount involved is huge or there is any other serious circumstance, shall be sentenced to imprisonment of not less than 3 years but not more than 10 years and a fine; or if the amount involved is especially huge or there is any other especially serious circumstance, shall be sentenced to imprisonment of not less than 10 years or life imprisonment and a fine or forfeiture of property.

up
2 users have voted.
Submitted by zed2 on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 12:59pm
zed2's picture

The tainted milk scandal is often brought up to me by Chinese as some thingthat must be understood to realize why the China of today is "broken" It lives large in the minds of many Chinese as an xample of why the Chinese oligarch of today is utterly amoral. (and implicitly "should be annihilated")

They are angry! In the past they did exactly that. That's what allowing extreme greed leads to.

Lets not go there! Its a vicious circle of bloodshed that repeats over and over.

How bitter is it? In North Korea I read of somebody who was sent to a concentration camp only the dead ever leave simply for having and preserving the (paper) deed for a property from "before Liberation" (which occurred after the defeat of the Japanese in 1945-1950) among their personal property. (Indicating a desire on their part to return to that state of extreme inequality, which made them officially "part of the enemy" because the Korean war has never ended. North Korea divides the entir nations people into approximately 50 categories, In a caste system "songbun" which determines everything in the DPRK. Of course the DPRK now is most certainly one of the least equal states in the world. One ruled by a single obsessively paranoid Kim family, with a totally made up past, a family that hides the rest of the world and all its knowledge from other North Koreans to keep them ignorant of the fact that they are not exceptionally wise or indeed anything, except greedy. Notso different than us, actually in the respect. A family which attempts to deceive the entire country into letting them rule by postulating a false meritocracy. .

As far as creatuing a false meritocracy caste system, The Big Four GAFA (Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon) companies who prioritize money as if it represented merit, seem to be taking us in a similar direction here in the USEUANZAC countries. (Based on your income and spending)

It seems they anticipate and are pushing us towards a future of debt slavery (n debt to themselves? Such is the goal in making everything cashless and all property and land and resources of all kinds, instantly alienable. (What it seems the trade deals are pushing onto us. All sorts of means of control. )

However in the past all such debts expired. Afterseven years they would be forgiven. (Not today)

However they should. But corporations should only be allowed to be forgiven of debts when they make it a practice of doing that for others.

See the discussion here. Of course they would never agree to frrgiving people of debts they owed them, no matter how much society needs it. Forgiveness of college debts should be a litmus test for politicians. As higher education should be free to all real scholars. People who are actually pursuing original research. (Not just people who like being students).

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/books/review/anarchist-anthropology.html

Parasitic corporations (not all or even a majority are parasitic -but, some really are, and we know them when we see them, should lose the charter that lets them operate as a corporation - shedding the responsibilityand liability, I think many would agree it should not be given by default.

up
3 users have voted.
Submitted by gjohnsit on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 10:37am

@zed2

only the dead ever leave

When I see things like this my red flags go up.

First of all, I really don't think that you can even compare China with North Korea. That's like comparing Afghanistan with Indonesia because they are both muslim nations.

Second, I know for a fact that things in North Korea have been exaggerated (one example was the story that the NK leader had people executed with an AA gun. Later shown to be made up)

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by The Voice In th... on Wed, 11/03/2021 - 11:58am

@zed2

up
0 users have voted.
—

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Submitted by zed2 on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 2:41pm
zed2's picture

I ended up writing a long piece here about the collection of data on DPRK crimes against humanity and the problems that would be faced (are being) confronted by anybody attempting to document them.

If this interests any of you shoot me a note and I would be happy to interact with you in some manner.

Let me state here that Ive spent enough time with this difficult subject to be 100% certain that its not being exaggerated. If anything, some players are playing down, I mean really underreporting the dark and scary parts that really should be known better and their implications.
Important Note:
As Now, since around 2002-2003 its become possible to actually become witnesses to this situation (if you want to) by means of space imaging. (assuming you have a decent video subsystem and an OpenGL/ 3D card equipped computer with adequate bandwidth to the Internet (basically any computer capable for use in 3D gaming will do)If you pursue this knowledge, IMHO That carries with it a responsibility to - as a witness, to do more. A moral obligation

up
1 user has voted.
Submitted by zed2 on Tue, 11/02/2021 - 3:01pm
zed2's picture

For similar reasons that many people here are apparently successfully being deceived into beleiving misrepresentaions about the government 's deceptions here, most people make ssumptions about the DPRK which are fundamentally wrong. People asume certain things to be the case of countries that just dont apply at all. I highly recommend seeing a short video about so called PsyOps in Northern Island during the Troubles that has recently come out. Its basically about propaganda. As there is a lot of it around us we might as wll try to understand it better. Without some real ground truth to draw upon for reference one has little to no chances of recognizing propaganda when others try to fool us with it. Maybe you have some known facts, and some false "facts" fed you by disinformation spreaders. What the final outcome , the conclusion you draw, has a lot to do with the weighting you give to these various facts. What you want to believe has a lot to do with this. Understandably, most Democrats likely want to believe "other Democrats" as historically that has been right. But what when people who have gone to great length to "smell right" to you are lying.

The way to recognize them is to make particular note to recognize and remember obvious anomalies. Things that dont fit in, that dont make sense with things you know without a doubt happened. Like your own memories.

Remember that some time ago my friend who used to work on Madison Avenue of all places, for the tobacco industry told me that this group's Science paper was the paper I need to understand how the disinformation people work. Why they make the big bucks.

The ad industry is concerned with influencing people to do things. Usually buy things but sometimes its other things, like voting for people.

up
2 users have voted.