Pence's inaction and Congress' foot-dragging on Trump Removal is dangerous

Trump needs to be out. As of the 6th, really, but any day since then would have been better than now, or later.

Yes, yes, he only has a few days left in his term. So what? What happened on Wednesday was literally a rebellion. People stormed the capitol with the intent to force the subversion of the November elections: it's by definition a coup. The fools chanting "USA! USA!" in the background are just too stupid to realize how ironic the chants were, while they engaged in a rebellious act against the country.

Trump is the one who incited these people. He can't claim ignorance; he's been an insider into their rhetoric from day one. He--and the people who made their petite rebellion that resulted in these deaths--are responsible, and should be held accountable.

That starts with getting Trump the hell out of there. If that isn't done it will be one (more) indication that our political "leadership" doesn't actually give a damn about our democracy--they're in it for the the wealth, the power, the ego-inflating pomp and circumstance. More importantly, if it's not done and done quickly it sets a dangerous precedent. The political class cannot be allowed to incite rebellion in the manner Trump has, and the all the delay in removal does is suggest to future Presidents that they have, and can possibly use, this as a weapon in the future.

I don't like what transpired last week. The sedition is one thing, but the potential future, without action now, is frightening. History has a lesson for us to learn: if our leaders don't take action now, they're setting us up to move in a direction the world spent its blood to defeat almost a century ago.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

why everyone has so much fear about Herr Drumpf staying in office. He's been in the office for four years - it seems that being in fear NOW is just being egged on by tptb. They're not going to let him do anything in the next nine days.

If you're afraid of the people, that's another story, however, living in fear instead of love does no good for the healing of the earth. People are angry and should be. Their government has hung them out to dry.

Instead of being fearful of what these people are going to do, let's all rally round and get a new governmental system in place - one that will serve ALL the people instead of tptb. Please remember - you fearing the people keeps tptb in their power. Let's disarm them instead.

Pleasantry

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22 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

@Raggedy Ann

here, RA. I'm not "living in fear", nor am I "afraid of people." I just don't see where you get that from the essay.

As for not letting Trump do anything in the next 9 days: so what? As I indicated, that sets a dangerous precedent. What's to stop the next lunatic from thinking he can pull something equally bad, or worse? Nothing, without a deterrent. The fact that they've let things slip during the rest of his term isn't really a good reason to keep doing so.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@BayAreaLefty in your essay. This, to me, is what you should be fearing:
https://www.blackagendareport.com/squad-wont-fight-pelosi-and-corporate-...

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13 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

@Raggedy Ann

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@BayAreaLefty
Are you saying you are NOTt in fear of Herr Drumpf being in office for the next 9 days? Please clarify.

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7 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

@Raggedy Ann

that admits being in fear of Trump being in office the next several days.

It is the precedent set that is worrisome, and that’s perfectly clear from the essay, RA.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@BayAreaLefty . I guess you don't see that.

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5 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

@Raggedy Ann

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TheOtherMaven's picture

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7 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Raggedy Ann's picture

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2 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

@TheOtherMaven

You and RA need to try harder. Or not.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@BayAreaLefty . But that might be your intent.

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3 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

He can declare war, he can drop a nuke, he can declare martial law, he can get our country attacked (we have no shortages in our enemies' list).
He has already incited a violent protest in the Capital, and he can still whip up people to a frenzy with press conferences and phone calls.
I am not afraid. I am worried and feel a need to somehow prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Several of my worries would end by his removal. I would rather have a single worry. If there is a governmental intention to impeach him, then get on with it.

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@on the cusp

If there is a governmental intention to impeach him, then get on with it.

If Trump is as big a danger as the Dems want us to believe, especially now, why are they seemingly outsourcing doing something about him to the Republicans, who we know damn well aren't going to do anything? Rather than leaking to the press that she's told the military brass she's afraid of what Trump will do now, why doesn't Pelosi take some steps herself to get him out of there?

Right now, it seems like politics as usual with the same yelling about this and that and no real action. Everyone is trying to score political points or minimize the damage. So our political betters either know this isn't really anything to worry about and it's just the same kayfabe garbage or they are so unwilling to act that they won't even make a move that would not only secure the country but also be wildly popular.

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24 users have voted.

Just another Bozo on the bus.

@Dr. John Carpenter

and that they believe they can use the unrest as a voter motivator in the midterms. That kind of political “leadership” worked well in Germany a hundred years ago, too.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

@Dr. John Carpenter . This is all theatre and a way to make Americans fear so they can put more sanctions/surveillance against us in place. Thank you for calling it what it is. Pleasantry

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19 users have voted.

The UFO’s are coming to unify us.

gulfgal98's picture

@Raggedy Ann

This is all theatre and a way to make Americans fear so they can put more sanctions/surveillance against us in place.

There were over 100K people at the Trump rally and they had minimal police there. The Capitol cops let the protesters in for gawd's sake. They knew weeks in advance that the Trump rally was going to be big and yet they allowed and encouraged the people who "stormed" the Capitol to do so. There are a lot of things about what the officials did to allow this to happen that smell very fishy.

As a comparison, two days earlier at the Force the Vote rally which had between 50 and perhaps 75 people at the most, but there were cops everywhere. They also made the Force the Vote rally move across the street into a public park even though all they were doing was speaking publicly in favor of Medicare for All.

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13 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

@gulfgal98

with its conspiracy theories as places like gab, perler, and /r/the_donald.

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gulfgal98's picture

@BayAreaLefty Are you accusing me of being a conspiracy theorist? Shok

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5 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

@gulfgal98

in that it suggests some conspiracy of officials to permit what happened on Wednesday, and there is just tons of RT- and other propaganda driven conspiracy theory around here lately.

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gulfgal98's picture

@BayAreaLefty where the Capitol police actually let the protestors in and stood by as they went in. I guess you did not read where the Capitol police twice turned down offers of additional law enforcement help even though they knew this rally had been planned for weeks and that the attendance would be in the thousands. It is very curious to me as to why these two things happened when the same police were all over a very small Force the Vote rally two days earlier.

Three days before supporters of President Donald Trump rioted at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to senior defense officials and two people familiar with the matter.

And here is the video link.

If that is spouting a conspiracy theory even though both things I cited are documented, then I am guilty.

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6 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

snoopydawg's picture

@BayAreaLefty

If you think this place is like those then why are you here? That is a hella insult to the members of the site and I for one am insulted. Use words to make your point not insults.

RT- and other propaganda driven conspiracy theory around here lately.

So now you're policing our sources like RT? More insults. Guess Dem controlled TV CNN and MSDNC are more acceptable right?

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3 users have voted.

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@snoopydawg @snoopydawg

suggesting Trump’s video was done under duress and that he’s a hostage.

I equate RT with places like MSNBC and DK, actually: they’re cut from the same cloth, but serve different masters.

One of the more insidious aspects of conspiracy theories is that challenging them is derided as being insulting or otherwise captured by the conspiracists. I’ll call out the completely irrational CT when and where I see it, thanks.

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CS in AZ's picture

@BayAreaLefty

As I said in my post, it was nothing more than an invitation for people to discuss and share their impressions of that video. I related the conversation among my friends that I was still mentally chewing on, and wondered if other c99 members would like to give their thoughts on it. The term "hostage video" is a metaphor! FFS. Trump was under some kind of duress, clearly. It was simply an opportunity for a discussion, that is all.

As I have said before, I often think of C99% as being sort of like a casual neighborhood bar where you can hang out and have chats with friends and other people, not necessarily all in agreement but having sometimes challenging, thought provoking, and/or educational conversations. Ideas can be talked about and may be speculative or just what-if kinds of topics. Not everything has to be so serious every minute. I am sorry you misunderstood the intent of my post. In fact I am sorry I posted it, since it seems a number of people took offense, although I am honestly not sure why. Just asking for opinions and thoughts to discuss something so odd as that weird video he put out, should not be a major BFD as far as I know.

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snoopydawg's picture

@CS in AZ

It was a good question and you weren’t alone in asking it. He certainly didn’t write it himself because he didn’t ramble until the end of it. But he went from fighting to conceding quite quickly after the day before. I’m sure his supporters were asking about it.

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CS in AZ's picture

@snoopydawg

I have to admit it was quite a shock earlier seeing this attack on me here in this essay. Wow, who knew that just posting a question for discussion would lead to such an accusation or being made into an example of being a conspiracy theorist! LOL, that is soooo not me, as anyone who has read my comments would know.

But them's the breaks, if you take the risk of putting your head above the water, you can become a target, either for what you actually say or even because of random misinterpretation. Such is why I often just want to crawl back into my cave and watch from there.

Oh well... back to the "hostage video" (again: a metaphor, for those with comprehension issues), yes Trump's supporters question it, of course! They think it was a deep fake, i.e., not really him at all, or if they do accept it was him, they understand it to be more "code" from him to convey to them that he really is pleased with their actions and he still loves them; he is just saying what he has to say... wink, wink; nudge nudge; know what I mean?

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ggersh's picture

@Dr. John Carpenter @Dr. John Carpenter @Dr. John Carpenter Pelosi is nothing but a 2 bit political BS hack who
passed every bill Trump asked for with no qualms. But now is the
time for him to go.

EDIT: Palm hits forehead

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21 users have voted.

Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

NO MORE WAR

snoopydawg's picture

@ggersh

The one time Pelosi stood up to Trump was when she didn’t pass the next Covid bill out of the house. Other than that yes she gave him every damn thing he wanted.

Oh yeah and she refused to let him bring the troops home.

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CB's picture

@on the cusp
that any American president has the power to unilaterally do all the things you are worried about. The farcebook/twatter bans have shown us exactly how impotent any sitting president actually is (a precedent that the nation will eventually come to regret in the future).

Forcing the issue to have a transition of power right now to save a few days will do immeasurably more damage to the fabric of American society. I don't believe even Fancy Nancy is that senile to do such a stupid act. In any event, she was never noted for "walking the talk".

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edg's picture

@CB

Not in the traditional sense of Biden taking over. If Trump were impeached today, Pence would become president for the next 9 days.

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CB's picture

into the wounds of Trumpster's followers and further divide America. He still has a substantial 40% approval rating despite all the shit that has been flung at him. I believe this number is relatively high because of those who despise the alternate. With the Dems in control of all three branches, the numbers of the latter are sure to increase substantially, especially when they fail to live up to their phony promises. I expect 4 years of blaming the shitty situation in America on Trump (and the Russians, Chinese). This blame game has been played for decades and the sheeple still fall for it - Every. Fucking. Time.

In 4 years the shabby economy of the US compared to China will become apparent to the majority of US citizens and then the shit will really hit the fan. Americans are born and grow up with the idea the US is #1 in the world. If the war mongers in Washington think they can force their way back into the Catbird seat militarily they will soon discover that the ships of the much vaunted Seventh Fleet are just holes in the water waiting to be filled.

The only way around this is swallow their pride and learn how to work with China and maybe even join the BRI.

@edg

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edg's picture

@CB

Learn how to work with China?!?! We never learned how to work with Russia. Or even Cuba, just 90 miles offshore. We can barely work with Canada. You, sir, are demanding TOO MUCH of America!!

No enemies = no $trillion defense budgets, no $multimillion donations to Congresspersons, and may result in Americans looking at their situation and not liking what they see.

We can't have that.

/snark off

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@on the cusp
He might order a launch like drunken Andropov, but the Joint Chiefs already told Pelosi that the mandated safeguards are in place. IOW, they won't do a first strike.

I would worry more about senile Biden or Pence trying to force Armageddon.

This is some Banker bullshit being spread. The masks are coming off and they are not afraid of the people seeing who really rules -- a Wall Street junta.

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13 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

edg's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Congress has not declared war since 1942. Even though we have been in war almost continuously since 1950. Trump could order an invasion of Iran or Syria under his Commander-in-Chief powers. It's unknown if the Pentagon would carry out the order or not because many of the sensible people have left and been replaced with Trump sycophants.

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usefewersyllables's picture

@on the cusp

Drop the "but what's in it for me" kabuki shit. Do it, or don't do it. Jayzus H. Cheerist on a bleedin' rubber crutch...

I personally feel that even if he decides to push the nuke button, there are enough sane people in the Joint-Chiefs-level command hierarchy to override it as an illegal order, based on our longstanding no-first-use policy. Frankly, I'm more afraid of some lower-level dominionist whacko deciding to do it for him than him doing it himself.

I'd love to see them take his football and code card away, and just lock him in a closet somewhere until after the inauguration. I would also love to see him convicted and neutered in terms of running for office again, and I would *really* love to see his SS protection stripped. But none of that matters: the cabinet and/or the congress need to either ACT, or shut the fuck up about it.

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9 users have voted.

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

snoopydawg's picture

in the capital riots have been declared guilty without trial. Trump must leave office now. Every person who was at the capital should be fired and then arrested. People have been kicked off airplanes or told they will not be allowed to fly home. No trial. Just stranded wherever they were when they got the notice. Pelosi is saying that Trump must be removed from office by Pence or she will impeach him. Except that they won't send the papers to the senate until after Biden's 1st 100 days. Therefore he apparently isn't too dangerous to leave in office after all. Hello? Anyone else picking up on this?

People are looking for blood because they say this was an attempted coup. Well for those who were allowed to just walk by 8 cops into the capital how'd they know they weren't welcome in? The cops just stood there silently as people walked into the building. Are they as guilty too? How about the people who saw it was turning violent and walked away? Are they just as guilty because they went to protest their government?

Amazon killed Parler after all the other sites kicked Trump off. Should they have that much power to kill whomever they want? Apparently because people are demanding blood.

Why shouldn't Trump supporters feel that the election wasn't on the up and up? We watched as dems cheated Bernie twice and admitted that they were within their rights to do so. We watched as the SC stole the election from Gore for Bush and dems just laid over. Well except that time in 2005 when some dems questioned the results of Ohio and Kerry and dems just laid over. Again. Kinda like the GOP did for Pennsylvania. Can anyone say that our elections are run fairly with all the gerrymandering, the closing down of voting places during an effing pandemic to make it harder for people to vote? Poor people have to jump through hell to vote and for gawd's sake don't let anyone vote if they committed a crime even if they paid for it.

Bleehhh. Anyone defending our system hasn't been paying attention.

But let's get all the blood taken before people come to their senses and see how this whole damn thing is still being manipulated for our benefit.

Domestic Terrorism is the buzz word the media decided to use for this. As well as government officials and Biden who said that he will crack down on this. Well isn't it convenient that the Patriot Act 2.0 has already been written?

So the FBI has been asking for people to snitch on their neighbors and help them find people that were at the event. Ronan Farrow has been outing people he finds to the FBI. Gee... what's next? Amazon giving the FBI access to its Parler servers? Or Twitter or FB or any of them without warrants? Can you see where this is heading?

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24 users have voted.

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@snoopydawg decides who the Democratic candidate will be.

The Uniparty decides who the next President will be.

all the rest is or may be theater.

Too stark?

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22 users have voted.

NYCVG

ggersh's picture

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg Bolivia in 2019 had a coup, ameriKKKa called it a stolen election

Here in ameriKKKa we didn't have a coup, we had idiots listening
to an idiot. How did the clowns get into the Capital without prior
knowledge that they'd be able to. After spending trillions on DHS
they can't guard the Capital, something doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2142522091623/capitol-police-chief-sought...

The U.S. Capitol Police chief who was in charge during last week’s deadly riots reportedly asked his supervisors ahead of time for permission to request that the D.C. National Guard be on standby if the situation spiraled out of control – but was denied. Steven Sund, who resigned from the...

Maybe the coup was against the Donald? Or to bring down a Patriot Act 2.0 down upon us? Neither of the 2 were needed.

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Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

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@ggersh in front of the Bolivian flag. AOC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErU1fkNVcAEHCun?format=jpg&name=large

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ggersh's picture

@aliasalias Mama Bear. Her and Mama want to have a public narrative and a private narrative. You just can't trust any politician, can we now.

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Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

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edg's picture

@ggersh

To a great extent it's because they're white. Same as the white women who invaded the Senate Office Building to protest Kavanaugh's nomination, except there were no repercussions for that. Compare the treatment of Trump rioters and Kavanaugh protesters with the treatment of George Floyd protesters in DC last June.

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ggersh's picture

@edg "all people are created equal". Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@ggersh

And to think we live in a land where "all people are created equal".

ROTFLMAOASTC!!11!!

The only "land where all people are created equal", or ever will be, is Neverland. Or maybe Utopia. *

All power corrupts absolutely.

* One acceptable translation of the Greek term ουτοπία is "Neverland"; i.e., "the place that is not and will never be".

Wink

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3 users have voted.

"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

gulfgal98's picture

@ggersh was not the idiots who got into the Capitol.

You got this right as to the real coup. It is the establishment against the American people and most will never know it. Donald Trump was used as the shiny object to divert our attention away from what is really happening.

Maybe the coup was against the Donald? Or to bring down a Patriot Act 2.0 down upon us? Neither of the 2 were needed.

The domestic terrorism act is thousands of pages and was written in 2019. They are already enacting it via big tech which today shut down Ron Paul on Facebook without warning. I am very frightened of what is happening and it has zero to do with Trump or his idiot followers.

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11 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

ggersh's picture

@gulfgal98

The domestic terrorism act is thousands of pages and was written in 2019. They are already enacting it via big tech which today shut down Ron Paul on Facebook without warning. I am very frightened of what is happening and it has zero to do with Trump or his idiot followers.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

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6 users have voted.

Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

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@ggersh

The coup attempt wasn't done against Trump, it was done for him, by his followers, at his incitement.

I realize (and totally understand and support) there's a jaundiced view of the democratic party around here--but that doesn't mean there's some deep state conspiracy against Trump lurking under every rock or behind every coup attempt.

Sometimes a thing is what it appears to be. Just sayin'.

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@snoopydawg
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Chris Hedges, not all speech in this country is, to say the least, simply allowed. I mean, you’re not supposed to be able to yell “fire” in a crowded theater, for example. As you pointed out, you yourself have been warning for years about American fascism. How does President Trump, the support for this insurrection, not fall into that category for you?

CHRIS HEDGES: Because he doesn’t specifically call for violence. And, you know, this goes back to the attempt on the state of Mississippi to go after the NAACP for violence that had been carried out, trying to blame the NAACP for this violence. And it went all the way up to the Supreme Court, I think, 1982. And they ruled, essentially — it was a unanimous decision — that this kind of speech, the kind of speech that Trump laid out, is actually protected, and even if it results in violence, they can’t go after the person who carried out that speech. So, if you give a strong — that case said that if you give a strong speech against segregation and that there is some kind of violence carried out, you’re not responsible.

So, I think that I would love to see Trump impeached. Ralph Nader and Bruce Fein have drawn up a list of 12 real impeachable offenses, not just a shakedown of the Ukraine. But, of course, I think the Democratic Party has been complicit in this administration. They could have impeached Trump the first week just on the Emoluments Clause alone, the perpetuation of nine wars, if we count Yemen, that were never declared by Congress. But they didn’t do it, because they saw Trump as a fundraising tool. The media has made tons of money off of Trump. Again, as was pointed out, the digital platforms love Trump as essentially keeping people on their platforms — again, profit-driven.
(all emphasis mine)
https://www.democracynow.org/2021/1/11/big_tech_response_capitol_insurre...

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17 users have voted.

@aliasalias When Biden officially takes over, watch out below. The precedent that one cannot be held responsible for the violence of others will fade away in practice when it comes to leftist resistance to war, imperialism, and class war against American citizens. Already Schiff is putting laws against domestic terrorism.

What is happening is that speech or even lack of it can be violence. AOC called Jimmy cursing at her violence. The Biden administration may end up being the worst in terms of censorship and politically motivated criminal prosecutions.

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12 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@MrWebster

remember that way back when he was 1st running and he told his supporters that he would pay their bill if they got caught beating people up? Funny how he wasn't reprimanded then. Oh no. Instead the media kept covering his campaign even when he wasn't speaking and insisted that all media do that. Remember? Or is this a CT too even though it had been well documented? Remember Ed Shultz? Enough SAID!

Either impeach or do not. Quit playing games with our lives. And others need to see where this is headed before we get there. There have been enough warnings about this over the year. A false flag and then we lose liberties.

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6 users have voted.

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RantingRooster's picture

Democrats have started the impeachment process!

We, as a country, have allowed so many presidents a pass on war crimes, crimes against humanity, mass illegal surveillance, torture, the list is almost endless, yet by comparison, this almost seems trivial. (I know it's not trivial)

We have fallen so far down the rabbit hole in terms allowing our presidents to commit egregious crimes, in our name, and NEVER holding them accountable, how do we dig our way back?

Welcome to the show. Crazy

Pass the popcorn will ya! Smile

Drinks

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18 users have voted.

C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote

edg's picture

@RantingRooster

In my view, Obama should have been impeached for droning American citizens without trial. Bush for lying us into Iraq. Etc.

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20 users have voted.
RantingRooster's picture

@edg

Heck, the 1st Iraq war was based on a pack lies as Bill Moyer reports. GHWB should be prosecuted as well.

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14 users have voted.

C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote

@RantingRooster Trump has never had to face any consequences for any action in his entire life. Why? Because he was born into money and managed to keep enough of it while growing his own fame. All these people faux shocked at where we are just need to step back and take a look at the big picture. His entire life has been leading to this moment.

As for politics and all that, the system is designed to create and protect people like Trump. The difference is, up to now, most people who got as far as Trump has knew there were some lines you couldn’t cross or at least you couldn’t say the quiet part out loud.

People said of W Bush he was born on third base and thought he hit a triple. With Trump, I think this is very literally true. I think he’s probably genuinely baffled as to what he did wrong or why Twitter banned him (the first punishment he’s ever had in his life.)

I say this not to excuse Trump. I say this because it was inevitable the system would create a Trump eventually. But look at the clowns we are supposed to believe have the power to do anything about him. They are all products of this system too.

They make make him a token sacrifice to appease the plebes (though I’m not sure they will honesty.) But you can be damn sure they won’t lift a finger to change the system that created him. They’ll spew some BS and disassociate themselves but the only thing they’ll do is make sure the next Trump plays by the rules of their game. That’s the only thing they’ve resented about him anyway, that he makes them all look bad.

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12 users have voted.

Just another Bozo on the bus.

He has no power. Hr has on;y days left. ousting him is a bad precedent. I don't want the USA to become a banana republic.

Noting will further fascism more than "Socialists stole the Presidency from Trump". They already think the election was stolen, now you want tho throw him out of office because of what his followers do? Think of the precedent.

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7 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

edg's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Hitler never killed any Jews. He never invaded Poland. He never bombed England or occupied France. Instead, his followers did.

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13 users have voted.

@edg
That's on the record. Trump said "but protest peacefully". By your logic, MLK should have been prosecuted for riots because "he didn't really mean peaceful ptotes". Nooo. It was just a caode word for violence.
You can't have it both ways. That's just sophistry.

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4 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

edg's picture

@The Voice In the Wilderness

Trump said "remain peaceful" before the invasion of the Capitol. He tweeted, “No violence!” as the invasion was in progress. Then "Stay peaceful!" when the invasion was winding down.

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3 users have voted.

@edg

Sigh. Don't listen to the DNC. They are the real enemy. Not the clown in the White House.
You should be afraid of the crooked snake who's about to move in.

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6 users have voted.

I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

snoopydawg's picture

Amongst all of this censorship, it is worthwhile to remember that as of May this year, the Atlantic Council effectively dictates the censorship policy of Facebook, as decried by MintpressNews upon the announcement of the collaboration:

“The new partnership will effectively ensure that [the] Atlantic Council will serve as Facebook’s “eyes and ears,” according to a company press statement. With its leadership comprised of retired military officers, former policymakers, and top figures from the U.S. National Security State and Western business elites, the Atlantic Council’s role policing the social network should be viewed as a virtual takeover of Facebook by the imperialist state and the council’s extensive list of ultra-wealthy and corporate donors.

There is lots of good info in this essay that I wrote, but don't just take my word for it. Here are the search results for Atlantic Council that others have written. Still think this is no big deal that all social media has banned the president of the United States? Even if you think they had every right to do it because they are private companies, we are still seeing a massive effort at censoring the president. Is this still acceptable just because they say they are private? I really thought more people would be against the principles of censorship no matter WHO did it.

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12 users have voted.

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snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg

we were all aware of what was happening, why and what next would be coming and yet here we are here today discussing what we saw was going to happen. Sad.

"The conscious intelligent manipulation of the organized opinions and habits of the masses is an important element in a democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government.t which is the true ruling power in our society."

-Edward Bernays.

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13 users have voted.

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ggersh's picture

@snoopydawg https://www.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/kv56h0/mexican_president_...

Mexican President AMLO denounces tech censorship of Trump, compares it the Inquisition

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11 users have voted.

Irony at it's finest, buying stocks breaks WS!

NO MORE WAR

edg's picture

@ggersh

Torture and violence were used by the Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics. About 150,000 were prosecuted for various offenses and 3,000 to 5,000 were executed.

Yeah, Trump being banned from Twitter is just like that. And I won't call you Shirley.

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5 users have voted.
edg's picture

@snoopydawg

The reason Atlantic Council hooked up with Facebook is because Democrats accused Russia of meddling in the 2016 US election. It's rather humorous that some of the very same people (not pointing at you. I don't know your stance on Russiagate) that enabled Facebook censorship in the first place are now bashing Facebook for engaging in censorship. "OMG!! Facebook is doing what we ordered them to do!!"

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8 users have voted.
Roy Blakeley's picture

@edg Obviously there are no statistically significant data, but I would bet that many of the don't censor crowd were skeptical of the Russiagate hoax. I certainly was and have conveyed chapter and verse as to why Russiagate was a hoax perpetrated by the Hillary crowd and members of the security establishment. The same is true for Snoopy. The people that wanted Facebook to censor were the so-called centrist Democrats. They are still among the most vociferous pro-censorship voices.

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11 users have voted.
edg's picture

@Roy Blakeley

My recollection is that all but a few people here disbelieved and ridiculed the Russia Hoax.

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3 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@edg

Russia Gate and Facebook censorship. Not only have I written extensively about it, but I posted a link and some of the essay I wrote right here in this essay.

I was one of the first people to say that it’s going to lead to censorship. And if it’s not clear where I stand on the censorship that has come down on Trump like a load of bricks I’m against it. Even more so since other companies are joining the dawg pile that has nothing to do with censorship. They are erasing Trump. If big businesses can do it to Trump then they will do it to anyone. Here and abroad.

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9 users have voted.

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Lookout's picture

§2383. Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=%2Fprelim%40title18%2Fpart1%2Fc...
Why bother with impeachment just apply the law...

Similarly they could have impeached Trumpolini for emoluments years ago...but they are all guilty of profiting from office too.

EDIT to add:
If they applied this law is would ruin their impeachment theater

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19 users have voted.

“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

edg's picture

@Lookout

It is Dem kabuki. As for the law, it's tough to indict and try a sitting president through the judicial system. That's why impeachment exists. After he's out, he can claim things he did as president were protected and he can't be held accountable as a civilian.

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9 users have voted.

@Lookout

Why do the correct thing when they (think they) can milk it for votes and more importantly donations!

I trust dems about as far as I could throw them on this matter. The one attempt at impeachment they made was a doomed-to-fail effort (intentionally I suspect) for an issue that was egregious but not as bad as the numerous other crimes herr drumpf committed.

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6 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

about things over which I have no control. Either they'll impeach, or they won't. What Congress should do, of course, is host a maskless "super-spreader" event at which there will be an especially deadly and contagious form of coronavirus. All of the 147 Republicans who aided and abetted this thing will be there; Bernie and the Squad will be out of town. Congressional physicians will be outside the event, picketing it with signs reading "Medicare for All now."

Well that's what they would do if they followed my wishes.

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11 users have voted.

"Be a loyal plastic robot for a world that doesn't care." -- Frank Zappa

edg's picture

@Cassiodorus

The old joke -- I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun you.

I didn't see any of the 147 sticking around when the mob broke in. They were too busy outrunning the other Congresspersons.

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10 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

@edg on what the "bear principle" is. Could you fill it in for our viewing audience here?

Anyway I think Krystal Ball summed it up well:

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8 users have voted.

"Be a loyal plastic robot for a world that doesn't care." -- Frank Zappa

usefewersyllables's picture

@Cassiodorus

encounter a bear on the trail: you don't have to be able to outrun the bear- you just have to be able to outrun your buddy. Cue laugh track.

Same thing with scuba divers and sharks. Most people dive in pairs. The joke goes that most divers carry knives so that if they encounter a shark, they just cut their buddy and swim away...

You don't have to move faster than the predator- just faster than the slowest prey around. Survival of the fittest writ large. Disclaimer: I'm a diver, and I quite like sharks, and have dived with them many times. I always found this to be cringey humor, but it is humor nonetheless.

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9 users have voted.

Twice bitten, permanently shy.

Cassiodorus's picture

@usefewersyllables Thanks for the clarification. In my actual encounters with bears, I was greatly aided by the fact that my vision was a lot better than that of the bears which I encountered, and so I was able to remove myself from the scene before they could notice I was there.

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6 users have voted.

"Be a loyal plastic robot for a world that doesn't care." -- Frank Zappa

edg's picture

@Cassiodorus

Variations of the bear joke use sharks, rabid dogs, and Bigfoot instead of a bear. Some include tripping your companion so the bear is busy chomping on them while you get away.

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4 users have voted.

It's Time to Stop Using the 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' Quote

"In the last few years, the quote has reared its head on countless occasions. In September, commentators pointed to it when questioning whether the controversial anti-Muslim video should be censored. Before that, it was invoked when a crazy pastor threatened to burn Qurans. Before that, the analogy was twisted to call for charges against WikiLeaks for publishing classified information. The list goes on.

But those who quote Holmes might want to actually read the case where the phrase originated before using it as their main defense. If they did, they'd realize it was never binding law, and the underlying case, U.S. v. Schenck, is not only one of the most odious free speech decisions in the Court's history, but was overturned over 40 years ago.

First, it's important to note U.S. v. Schenck had nothing to do with fires or theaters or false statements. Instead, the Court was deciding whether Charles Schenck, the Secretary of the Socialist Party of America, could be convicted under the Espionage Act for writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft during World War I. As the ACLU's Gabe Rottman explains, "It did not call for violence. It did not even call for civil disobedience."

The Court's description of the pamphlet proves it to be milder than any of the dozens of protests currently going on around this country every day:

It said, "Do not submit to intimidation," but in form, at least, confined itself to peaceful measures such as a petition for the repeal of the act. The other and later printed side of the sheet was headed "Assert Your Rights."

The crowded theater remark that everyone remembers was an analogy Holmes made before issuing the court's holding. He was explaining that the First Amendment is not absolute. It is what lawyers call dictum, a justice's ancillary opinion that doesn't directly involve the facts of the case and has no binding authority. The actual ruling, that the pamphlet posed a "clear and present danger" to a nation at war, landed Schenk in prison and continued to haunt the court for years to come..."

"...In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried. There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action" (emphasis mine).

Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
(emphasis mine)
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-us...

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12 users have voted.
edg's picture

@aliasalias

Jacobellis v. Ohio “I know it when I see it” has to rank up there as a lazy cheat.

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5 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@aliasalias

This bears repeating.

Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."

This too

The truth prevailed, not through forcing censorship or jailing a person for speaking, but through the overwhelming counterbalance of more speech. As Holmes said after his soliloquy in Abrams, "That, at any rate, is the theory of our Constitution."

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4 users have voted.

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snoopydawg's picture

@snoopydawg

From Wikipedia

Debs was noted for his oratory skills, and his speech denouncing American participation in World War I led to his second arrest in 1918. He was convicted under the Sedition Act of 1918 and sentenced to a term of 10 years. President Warren G. Harding commuted his sentence in December 1921. Debs died in 1926, not long after being admitted to a sanatorium due to cardiovascular problems that developed during his time in prison.

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6 users have voted.

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Trump will need a bureaucracy to implement any order. I doubt he will have much cooperation in the next few days. Hell, the military deliberately lied to him about troop levels in Syria.

What I fear is what Glenn Greenwald articulated. The DC riot will lead to draconian limits on freedom of expression and dissent. In fact, what I fear is the criminalization of protected speech and dissent.

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15 users have voted.
Roy Blakeley's picture

@MrWebster that the GW Bush and Obama regimes dramatically increased the surveillance state, whereas Trump did not. Elements of the FBI, CIA and NSA tried to rig the 2016 election for Hillary Clinton, and then pushed the Russiagate hoax and then along with their corporate Dem allies like Adam "Dickhead" Schiff pushed the phoney impeachment to diffuse the Hunter Biden Scandal. Trump is by nature inclined to totalitarianism, but he is lazy, cowardly and lacking in organizational ability. In the long run, we are likely to have more to fear from Brennan, Clapper, and their allies and ilk than from Donald Trump.

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13 users have voted.

@MrWebster

In this letter to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, the ACLU urged Members to oppose H.R. 4192, Confronting the Threat of Domestic Terrorism Act. By reifying and broadening domestic terrorism authorities, H.R. 4192 would unnecessarily expand law enforcement authorities to target and discriminate against the very communities Congress is seeking to protect. The additional crimes, criminal penalties, and expansion of the death penalty in H.R. 4192 would further incorporate abusive terrorism authorities into a discriminatory criminal justice system.

People of color and other marginalized communities have long been targeted under domestic terrorism authorities for unfair and discriminatory surveillance, investigations, and prosecutions. Law enforcement agencies' use of these authorities undermines and has violated equal protection, due process, and First Amendment rights. (emphasis mine)

https://www.aclu.org/letter/aclu-statement-opposing-hr-4192-confronting-...

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11 users have voted.
snoopydawg's picture

@aliasalias

almost every issue. If we don’t they can address it at the time that the law is lacking. But then that isn’t the point is it? We don’t have habeas corpus as it is. Then there are all the executive orders that we don’t know about. Plenty of rules.

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6 users have voted.

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thanatokephaloides's picture

@snoopydawg

We have plenty of rules in place to take care of almost every issue. If we don’t they can address it at the time that the law is lacking. But then that isn’t the point is it? We don’t have habeas corpus as it is. Then there are all the executive orders that we don’t know about. Plenty of rules.

So many rules (often mutually contradictory) that the net effect is that there are no rules, especially when one is non-rich. Bad

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4 users have voted.

"I say enough! If Israel wants to be the only superpower in the Middle East then they can put their own asses on the line and do it themselves. I want to continue to eat."
-- snoopydawg

wendy davis's picture

@aliasalias

anthony freda during the Obomba regime:

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1 user has voted.
snoopydawg's picture

That starts with getting Trump the hell out of there. If that isn't done it will be one (more) indication that our political "leadership" doesn't actually give a damn about our democracy--they're in it for the the wealth, the power, the ego-inflating pomp and circumstance.

The house is impeaching Wednesday, but not sending the bill to the senate for 3 months. This seems to be the opposite of imminent threat from Trump. Republicans don’t want it to happen and who knows what Biden wants? But notice how we’re not talking about $2k checks! MFA or the number of people who are losing their everything’s. Not much about Covid either even though 4,000 people died yesterday and the day before. Vaccines are going out slowly and lots of non essential people are getting the shot over essential workers. I sure wonder how many rich people have gotten it by now?

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11 users have voted.

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