@QMS

Sometimes I think about Pete Seeger up against HUAC....

Mr. TAVENNER: Did you sing this song, to which we have referred, “Now Is the Time,” at Wingdale Lodge on the weekend of July Fourth?

Mr. SEEGER: I don’t know any song by that name, and I know a song with a similar name. It is called “Wasn’t That a Time.” Is that the song?

Chairman WALTER: Did you sing that song?

Mr. SEEGER: I can sing it. I don’t know how well I can do it without my banjo.

some thoughts are best expressed in song

[video:https://youtu.be/bXd-wtZpLQg]

change is going to come

@lotlizard

thanks for the link

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-american-system-is-...

@Dr. John Carpenter

It just makes me more convinced that the American political establishment is basically a Joe McCarthy redux.

At the risk of sounding like a Jimmy Dore fanboy, it really seems like too much of the pushback is centered on Dore, that #forcethevote originated with Dore, that Dore didn’t go follow the proper procedure for such things (whatever that is), etc.

I'm reminded of the 2005 movie Good Night and Good Luck
, in which Murrow's team of journalists say to him, "What on earth is McCarthy going to do, deny his own words?" and Murrow says to them, "C'mon, you know what he's going to do. He's going to come after me. What else can he do?"

When what you're doing is indefensible, all you can do is try and destroy the other guy's character.

They haven't got a fucking leg to stand on, and they know it.

This may--probably won't, but may--finally destroy this misbegotten, woebegotten zombie version of identity politics. They're essentially saying they're going to let masses of people die because their donors want them to, and they're trying to justify that, or at least obscure the shame of it, by saying that Jimmy Dore and those who side with him are racist. Including Briahna Gray.

And I agree that what’s going on in the left media/“important voices” or whatever you’d call them is very revealing. At the risk of sounding like a Jimmy Dore fanboy, it really seems like too much of the pushback is centered on Dore, that #forcethevote originated with Dore, that Dore didn’t go follow the proper procedure for such things (whatever that is), etc. While I have no misbelief that M4A would pass even now, the debate has perhaps done even more by itself. Cynical as I am, I’ve been surprised to see how petty, small minded, egotistical and incrementalist many so called progressives are when a real movement starts rolling.

#forcethevote isn’t perfect. I doubt a perfect plan exists. But it is a PLAN! It’s not strategizing divorced from action. It’s not empty pontificating in the lefty media. It’s not waiting for the right time or hoping that other Dems will see the light. But since the whole talk about a movement started with Bernie’s first run, the closest thing I’ve heard to a plan has been:
1. Elect “more and better” Dems
2. ???
3. Profit!
and frankly, that isn’t accomplishing anything.

For all the hand wringing about circular firing squads or pie fights (heh) or “leave AOC alooooooone!” this is the discussion the left needs to be having. This is what should have been happening all along. It should be embarrassing to the “stars” of this movement that a self-professed pot head, jag off comedian broadcasting out of his garage got the first real sings of movement going. I hope this serves as a boot to the butt not just for elected officials but some other so called leaders as well.

(EDIT: I wanted to add one thought that inspired this rant (it's been brewing a while.) I happened to be casually watching Jimmy Dore's livestream the night he and David Sirota really got into it early in the #forcethevote timeline. If you didn't see it, Sirota came on and seemed to be saying he was against holding votes for Pelosi because this could lead to a Republican speaker. Or at least Jimmy interperted it that way and he did his usual Jimmy Dore over the top thing. He and Sirota exchanged some words via Twitter before he came back on the stream, obviously pissed off by the exchange.

Now, I know Sirota was heated. If he was being misrepresented, and I'm still not sure he was, I can understand that. And I understand that people get angry and words can get garbled. But his second appearance on Dore's stream was really what started this rant.

Sirota seemed most upset that his progressive bonafides were being questioned by a relative newcomer. He kept talking about having been fighting for (that term, ugh) M4A for 25 years and all the things he's done, etc. etc.

Yes, Sirota has done a lot. Far more than I ever will, I'm sure. He's someone who is an important voice and someone who I respect. What I don't respect is the idea that this puts him, or anyone, above criticism or being taken to task or that if an idea didn't originate from someone who has put in the time or whatever, that it's invalid. His arguments just seemed so meritocratic that it really gave me pause. It really got me wondering how much of the progressive left (or whatever you want to call it) has calcified into the same merotocracy as the Democrats, just with better politics. I don't have an answer, but I'm finiding the debate around #forcethevote to be illuminating.)

@Dr. John Carpenter

by asking those questions.

I, too, liked David Sirota very much once upon a time, and I'm just as unhappy as anybody else at having to consider him an opponent rather than an ally. But anybody who could enter a conversation about healthcare policy in the middle of a pandemic with a few hundred thousand people dead, a new surge of cases and deaths, a new mutation or three, an economy on the verge of collapse and a society in which medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy--and make it about their personal credentials or about the effect #forcethevote will have on their personal career trajectory is doing something monstrous.

That's why I can't talk, or write, about this very much. The fundamental nature of this "debate" *is* monstrous. It's monstrous, under these circumstances, to care about whether or not AOC's upward climb through the party ranks is hampered by #ForcetheVote. It's monstrous, under these circumstances, to care about whether someone sufficiently respects your movement cred. 341,000 deaths from COVID-19. That we know about. Three hundred and forty-one thousand. An upcoming wave of evictions in the heart of winter. And David Sirota is worried about whether or not Jimmy Dore is giving his time in the healthcare rights movement sufficient respect. He's upset because his credentials are being called into question. And AOC's supporters are upset because she may not get a committee seat now, and it may take her longer to rise to the level of getting a cabinet post or a place on a presidential ticket.

And I agree that what’s going on in the left media/“important voices” or whatever you’d call them is very revealing. At the risk of sounding like a Jimmy Dore fanboy, it really seems like too much of the pushback is centered on Dore, that #forcethevote originated with Dore, that Dore didn’t go follow the proper procedure for such things (whatever that is), etc. While I have no misbelief that M4A would pass even now, the debate has perhaps done even more by itself. Cynical as I am, I’ve been surprised to see how petty, small minded, egotistical and incrementalist many so called progressives are when a real movement starts rolling.

#forcethevote isn’t perfect. I doubt a perfect plan exists. But it is a PLAN! It’s not strategizing divorced from action. It’s not empty pontificating in the lefty media. It’s not waiting for the right time or hoping that other Dems will see the light. But since the whole talk about a movement started with Bernie’s first run, the closest thing I’ve heard to a plan has been:
1. Elect “more and better” Dems
2. ???
3. Profit!
and frankly, that isn’t accomplishing anything.

For all the hand wringing about circular firing squads or pie fights (heh) or “leave AOC alooooooone!” this is the discussion the left needs to be having. This is what should have been happening all along. It should be embarrassing to the “stars” of this movement that a self-professed pot head, jag off comedian broadcasting out of his garage got the first real sings of movement going. I hope this serves as a boot to the butt not just for elected officials but some other so called leaders as well.

(EDIT: I wanted to add one thought that inspired this rant (it's been brewing a while.) I happened to be casually watching Jimmy Dore's livestream the night he and David Sirota really got into it early in the #forcethevote timeline. If you didn't see it, Sirota came on and seemed to be saying he was against holding votes for Pelosi because this could lead to a Republican speaker. Or at least Jimmy interperted it that way and he did his usual Jimmy Dore over the top thing. He and Sirota exchanged some words via Twitter before he came back on the stream, obviously pissed off by the exchange.

Now, I know Sirota was heated. If he was being misrepresented, and I'm still not sure he was, I can understand that. And I understand that people get angry and words can get garbled. But his second appearance on Dore's stream was really what started this rant.

Sirota seemed most upset that his progressive bonafides were being questioned by a relative newcomer. He kept talking about having been fighting for (that term, ugh) M4A for 25 years and all the things he's done, etc. etc.

Yes, Sirota has done a lot. Far more than I ever will, I'm sure. He's someone who is an important voice and someone who I respect. What I don't respect is the idea that this puts him, or anyone, above criticism or being taken to task or that if an idea didn't originate from someone who has put in the time or whatever, that it's invalid. His arguments just seemed so meritocratic that it really gave me pause. It really got me wondering how much of the progressive left (or whatever you want to call it) has calcified into the same merotocracy as the Democrats, just with better politics. I don't have an answer, but I'm finiding the debate around #forcethevote to be illuminating.)

@randtntx

I appreciate everybody here for putting up with me when I'm at a loss for words.

and argue, discussion is getting close to impossible these days. Music does help.

Thanks for your OT, and music.