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On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield.

The breadth of the NDAA’s worldwide detention authority violates the Constitution and international law because it is not limited to people captured in an actual armed conflict, as required by the laws of war. Under the Bush administration, similar claims of worldwide detention authority were used to hold even a U.S. citizen captured on U.S. soil in military custody, and many in Congress assert that the NDAA should be used in the same way. The ACLU does not believe that the NDAA authorizes military detention of American citizens or anyone else in the United States. Any president’s claim of domestic military detention authority under the NDAA would be unconstitutional and illegal. Nevertheless, there is substantial public debate around whether the NDAA could be read even to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act and authorize indefinite military detention without charge or trial within the United States.

Both Congress and the president need to clean up the mess they have created. No one should live in fear of this or any future president misusing the NDAA’s detention authority. The NDAA’s detention provisions must be repealed.

Many warned Obama to not leave this in place for future presidents, but he did and here we are now seeing Trump using it. Barr was asking congress for permission to put this into effect. And remember that democrats just reauthorized the patriot act for the 'most dangerous president' to use at his discretion. I have asked Bernie to address this, but I’ve yet to hear from him.

I remember arguing with people about how secret courts making secret laws did not make them legal, but it went as well as arguing against drones making us more safe.

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:24am

Apparently there are lots of NDAAs

@snoopydawg given that "NDAA" is an acronym for a rather generic term. It's good that we keep the focus upon the one signed in 2011.

This is just a footnote.

On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield.

The breadth of the NDAA’s worldwide detention authority violates the Constitution and international law because it is not limited to people captured in an actual armed conflict, as required by the laws of war. Under the Bush administration, similar claims of worldwide detention authority were used to hold even a U.S. citizen captured on U.S. soil in military custody, and many in Congress assert that the NDAA should be used in the same way. The ACLU does not believe that the NDAA authorizes military detention of American citizens or anyone else in the United States. Any president’s claim of domestic military detention authority under the NDAA would be unconstitutional and illegal. Nevertheless, there is substantial public debate around whether the NDAA could be read even to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act and authorize indefinite military detention without charge or trial within the United States.

Both Congress and the president need to clean up the mess they have created. No one should live in fear of this or any future president misusing the NDAA’s detention authority. The NDAA’s detention provisions must be repealed.

Many warned Obama to not leave this in place for future presidents, but he did and here we are now seeing Trump using it. Barr was asking congress for permission to put this into effect. And remember that democrats just reauthorized the patriot act for the 'most dangerous president' to use at his discretion. I have asked Bernie to address this, but I’ve yet to hear from him.

I remember arguing with people about how secret courts making secret laws did not make them legal, but it went as well as arguing against drones making us more safe.

—

The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 11:08am

The date is mentioned twice

@Cassiodorus

In the article and the comment. Makes it clear which one I am talking about no?

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 11:52am

Indeed.

@snoopydawg You're good to go. There is an effort going about to confuse people about this topic. I am policing that effort.

—

The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by wokkamile on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 1:23pm

Not sure if that NDAA

@Cassiodorus is even relevant here, although to be sure it did not make Obama look like a defender of civil liberties and sets a very bad precedent. And if it were relevant, don't you think Trump would have invoked it to provide legal and political cover for this latest Gestapo maneuver?

Fed authorities can act locally to protect fed property, but as I understand this is usually given to the US Marshalls, Tommy Lee Jones et al. And the rationale for the activity at issue here was protection of federal property, per the HHS Sec'y statement, though one question is whether those arrested were destroying such property or merely standing by in the vicinity.

Many questions, and Ianal, but in one video widely seen, a woman is arrested but seems to be just standing on the sidewalk, not clear at all what illegal activity she was engaged in. Also this oddity: it's the easiest, most peaceful arrest I've seen in recent times. She has her hands up obediently as soon as the fed thugs approach her, and she immediately puts her hands behind her back. They don't even bother to handcuff her. No words of protest either. No dragging of her feet as they lead her to the car. All very strange. Could be real, but it looks staged.

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 5:01pm

Even Trump supporters are likely

@wokkamile to have a problem with that NDAA being formally invoked openly as the law of the land, once many of them find out what that really means and just what it allows government to do to anyone. If not only for that reason, I for one highly doubt the day comes to formally announce its use here. It is already essentially being done if not in form, then in substance, here in the land of the free. Especially if one is poor or black. And I will just say that expecting Democrats to actually do anything to revoke it is a fools errand. Joe's Boss signed it after all... They'll bleat about it and ascribe the police state to Trump alone but if their own OWNERS didn't want it used it would not be.

It isn't time yet to formally call for its use, but that time is approaching, and it will be fully bipartisan, to "restore law and order" here in Idiot America, right? It is a very slippery slope now, but fascism in this country is much, much more subtle than actually saying one is going to start arresting everyone and putting them in camps. Americans can be skeptical, but frame it right and they'll believe almost anything. Russiagate anyone? Shampeachment? Obama as a rabid Socialist? Trump WILL make America great again? Think our media would make a big deal about it once Trump is out of office? Once the shit really hits the fan Democrats will be fully onboard, I'd bet they use it against Trump supporters first to get their minions on board, like they're already doing in their way with pressuring voters into picking between the Orange Loon and Dementia Crime Bill Author Joe to "save our democracy."

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 12:41pm

THIS

@lizzyh7

Think our media would make a big deal about it once Trump is out of office? Once the shit really hits the fan Democrats will be fully onboard, I'd bet they use it against Trump supporters first to get their minions on board,

This is what happened when censorship on social media was starting. Did they censure someone from the left who was exposing the crimes of the government? Nope. They banned Alex Jones of the conspiracy theories on the right and many democrats cheered it on. Then it expanded to the leftish sites that were critical of the government and it has gone on from there. And as many here have pointed it it doesn't just silence the voices that have been censured, but it causes many others to self censure their own writings so that they aren't next.

Oh yes they are devious when they do something because they have planned it out years in advance. Take the assaults on social security for one example. When it comes it is not going to affect those who are currently on it, but future generations who are already on board with it being cut and saying that they know that it won't be there for them so why should they have to be paying into it now? Yes, very devious. What is happening now was probably planned well before Biden wrote the patriot act in 1995 that was passed in 2001 after the event of the century. What event did they foresee that would need them to cut our civil rights as drastically as they have been? I have read articles saying that they have been cut 70-95%. Look at how many on the right cheer the actions of the police because it's against those damned libs, but imagine if the open up protests and other rightish protests had been met with the same use of force. And is the reason for why they aren't? Is it because of how many cops are more on the right than the left? Or that the PTB want us to stay divided so that both sides don't join and fight our real enemy? What would they have done if Obama had sent the FBI to the Mauer event that the Bundy's did? They broke into a federal facility and kept the feds out of it, but lots of people on the right thought that was ok. I really don't see that it was nor the event in Nevada when they held off federal authorities from taking Bundy's cattle at gun point. Lots of cheers even though the court had found that Bundy had broke the law.

Scratching my head over how some people think and react. I do try to see it through their eyes.

Submitted by lizzyh7 on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:35pm

Spot on in saying

@snoopydawg it is indeed the PTB who do NOT want us to unite and fight our real enemy. They hope we do not even see that enemy and so far, that is working out very well. Since they've been doing just that since this country was founded and it has worked, of course this is just the latest installment. With the state this country is in now, there are so MANY things to argue about, aren't there? Distraction and confusion, straight out of the CIA playbook, imagine.

Keep people focused on who is "rioting" and destroying property, get them to fight over the need for police to protect said property, but don't look behind the curtain to see just whose property is really being protected - hint, small businesses are to be gleefully sacrificed so our owners can consolidate their total control, but our media will indeed use that little fact to spin it so that protestors are simply destroying ordinary people's stuff, just for kicks, right? And who knows, some may be doing just that, while others are just desperate enough, soon to be worse in that regard by the way, to indeed risk their lives to get up and say something about the corruption, greed and militarized violence. Keep the focus on looting and rioting, but do not focus on this country being gutted from within by the PTB - who just looted the Treasury to the tune of trillions? But it's mere negativity to mention THAT, look at those people looting Target and you bring up Wall Street you purist!

Keep them focused on who is wearing a mask and who isn't, and of course argue about "the science" which our media will be glad to define for you in their lying way, but do NOT look at prior outright lies and see how this too might just be another one. Our media has performed their job brilliantly in sowing confusion, keep up the good work guys! IF you media types allow any dissent at all, make sure you cover the looniest and most outrageous positions of said dissent, best if you use a right winger for that type of thing because we all know "those people" don't believe in science, right? Not saying that isn't somewhat true, but our media hypes that every chance they get, don't they? Hell, the "right" media plays their part there, giving the looniest among them a huge platform to spew bullshit, so of course ALL of the "right" are just as loony. And under-educated, which is simply a sin in today's meritocratic America where only the best and brightest SHOULD succeed... Or even survive.

Keep them focused on electoral politics, after all if you don't vote you can't complain, right? Keep them herded into their separate camps, angry and distrustful of EACH OTHER, fear of the "other" is what this country is all about after all. Make sure they stay obsessed with the idea that one candidate or another is going to "save American democracy" when no such thing even exists anymore.
Keep them focused on "those people" who question the need to destroy their lives while good liberals who sit at home collecting their checks whine about racism and inequality, but DO NOT address what might actually mitigate that racism and inequality - a living Godamned wage and decent health care that does not bankrupt people because "those things" would be "free shit" and we simply cannot have that. One MUST be realistic, after all.

And try to keep people's personal interactions online as much as possible, after all, our masters of the internet already know almost everything about all of us, now lets give them our most personal interactions so they can sell us more shit, or track everything you do and everywhere you go because you have nothing to hide, right? Don't worry about that surveillance state that is ALREADY here, "do your part" and stay home and online and America will be great again. And if there's more divide and conquer online? Well, that's not a problem, that's a feature, what easier way to herd people than "social" media, it's worked so far, now that the peons "have no choice" it'll work even better. And that civil war our media loves to bleat about? That too will cull the herd and our owners are indeed prepared for that, when even the Social Security Administration buys millions of rounds of ammunition along with almost every other Federal agency, I think we know what our owners have in mind. And think of the media coverage of said civil wars, another golden goose to juice up the ratings once the Orange Loon as run his course! But hey, that's loony conspiracy theory territory, just ignore that and get on with the arguments on Facebook and Twitter and call it a day. Make sure to VOTE and do your part there, and if you do not, well then, another 4 years of El Rumpo is on YOU, for shame. Never mind the neo-liberal sell outs, never mind that massive military budget they ALL vote to pass, never mind the medical bankruptcy or that staggering prison population, VOTE as if your very life depends on it but DO NOT expect change, ever. This is just the way it is and to think any differently, or attempt to DEMAND a real difference makes you immature and probably woefully under "educated" as well.

#7.2.1.1.1.1

Think our media would make a big deal about it once Trump is out of office? Once the shit really hits the fan Democrats will be fully onboard, I'd bet they use it against Trump supporters first to get their minions on board,

This is what happened when censorship on social media was starting. Did they censure someone from the left who was exposing the crimes of the government? Nope. They banned Alex Jones of the conspiracy theories on the right and many democrats cheered it on. Then it expanded to the leftish sites that were critical of the government and it has gone on from there. And as many here have pointed it it doesn't just silence the voices that have been censured, but it causes many others to self censure their own writings so that they aren't next.

Oh yes they are devious when they do something because they have planned it out years in advance. Take the assaults on social security for one example. When it comes it is not going to affect those who are currently on it, but future generations who are already on board with it being cut and saying that they know that it won't be there for them so why should they have to be paying into it now? Yes, very devious. What is happening now was probably planned well before Biden wrote the patriot act in 1995 that was passed in 2001 after the event of the century. What event did they foresee that would need them to cut our civil rights as drastically as they have been? I have read articles saying that they have been cut 70-95%. Look at how many on the right cheer the actions of the police because it's against those damned libs, but imagine if the open up protests and other rightish protests had been met with the same use of force. And is the reason for why they aren't? Is it because of how many cops are more on the right than the left? Or that the PTB want us to stay divided so that both sides don't join and fight our real enemy? What would they have done if Obama had sent the FBI to the Mauer event that the Bundy's did? They broke into a federal facility and kept the feds out of it, but lots of people on the right thought that was ok. I really don't see that it was nor the event in Nevada when they held off federal authorities from taking Bundy's cattle at gun point. Lots of cheers even though the court had found that Bundy had broke the law.

Scratching my head over how some people think and react. I do try to see it through their eyes.

—

Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 4:40pm

Lol, lizzy

@lizzyh7

Great rant and boy did you nail what’s happening here. I wish I knew what it’s going to take to get others to wake up and see what we are with all the distractions. The biggest one is Trump. How much of what he says and does is just to keep people focusing on him while behind the scenes congress is doing lots of damage. This started even before he became president with the Russia bullshit that is coming around again with Biden saying that he is getting briefed from intelligence and they are telling him both Russia and China are trying to interfere with the election. And yes people are buying it. Again.

#7.2.1.1.1.1.1 it is indeed the PTB who do NOT want us to unite and fight our real enemy. They hope we do not even see that enemy and so far, that is working out very well. Since they've been doing just that since this country was founded and it has worked, of course this is just the latest installment. With the state this country is in now, there are so MANY things to argue about, aren't there? Distraction and confusion, straight out of the CIA playbook, imagine. Keep people focused on who is "rioting" and destroying property, get them to fight over the need for police to protect said property, but don't look behind the curtain to see just whose property is really being protected - hint, small businesses are to be gleefully sacrificed so our owners can consolidate their total control, but our media will indeed use that little fact to spin it so that protestors are simply destroying ordinary people's stuff, just for kicks, right? And who knows, some may be doing just that, while others are just desperate enough, soon to be worse in that regard by the way, to indeed risk their lives to get up and say something about the corruption, greed and militarized violence. Keep the focus on looting and rioting, but do not focus on this country being gutted from within by the PTB - who just looted the Treasury to the tune of trillions? But it's mere negativity to mention THAT, look at those people looting Target and you bring up Wall Street you purist! Keep them focused on who is wearing a mask and who isn't, and of course argue about "the science" which our media will be glad to define for you in their lying way, but do NOT look at prior outright lies and see how this too might just be another one. Our media has performed their job brilliantly in sowing confusion, keep up the good work guys! IF you media types allow any dissent at all, make sure you cover the looniest and most outrageous positions of said dissent, best if you use a right winger for that type of thing because we all know "those people" don't believe in science, right? Not saying that isn't somewhat true, but our media hypes that every chance they get, don't they? Hell, the "right" media plays their part there, giving the looniest among them a huge platform to spew bullshit, so of course ALL of the "right" are just as loony. And under-educated, which is simply a sin in today's meritocratic America where only the best and brightest SHOULD succeed... Or even survive. Keep them focused on electoral politics, after all if you don't vote you can't complain, right? Keep them herded into their separate camps, angry and distrustful of EACH OTHER, fear of the "other" is what this country is all about after all. Make sure they stay obsessed with the idea that one candidate or another is going to "save American democracy" when no such thing even exists anymore. Keep them focused on "those people" who question the need to destroy their lives while good liberals who sit at home collecting their checks whine about racism and inequality, but DO NOT address what might actually mitigate that racism and inequality - a living Godamned wage and decent health care that does not bankrupt people because "those things" would be "free shit" and we simply cannot have that. One MUST be realistic, after all. And try to keep people's personal interactions online as much as possible, after all, our masters of the internet already know almost everything about all of us, now lets give them our most personal interactions so they can sell us more shit, or track everything you do and everywhere you go because you have nothing to hide, right? Don't worry about that surveillance state that is ALREADY here, "do your part" and stay home and online and America will be great again. And if there's more divide and conquer online? Well, that's not a problem, that's a feature, what easier way to herd people than "social" media, it's worked so far, now that the peons "have no choice" it'll work even better. And that civil war our media loves to bleat about? That too will cull the herd and our owners are indeed prepared for that, when even the Social Security Administration buys millions of rounds of ammunition along with almost every other Federal agency, I think we know what our owners have in mind. And think of the media coverage of said civil wars, another golden goose to juice up the ratings once the Orange Loon as run his course! But hey, that's loony conspiracy theory territory, just ignore that and get on with the arguments on Facebook and Twitter and call it a day. Make sure to VOTE and do your part there, and if you do not, well then, another 4 years of El Rumpo is on YOU, for shame. Never mind the neo-liberal sell outs, never mind that massive military budget they ALL vote to pass, never mind the medical bankruptcy or that staggering prison population, VOTE as if your very life depends on it but DO NOT expect change, ever. This is just the way it is and to think any differently, or attempt to DEMAND a real difference makes you immature and probably woefully under "educated" as well.

Submitted by wokkamile on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 1:34pm

You're getting way too

@lizzyh7 far out over your skis both on NDAA, which isn't being used currently as there is no need to, and on what will happen re Biden once Trump is out of office.

That second item is one Huge IF. And I wonder if part of the federal good squad displays of force now in Portland -- and soon other cities -- aren't meant as a dress rehearsal for later in the year, when uppity voters and democracy softies go to the streets after Donald insists on staying in office b/c the election was rigged.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 4:46pm

This again?

@wokkamile

Donald insists on staying in office b/c the election was rigged.

Now who is getting out over their skies? There is no way he can stay longer than his term as others keep telling you because it’s the power of the presidency not the actual location that gets transferred. But keep telling yourself he won’t. As for you dismissing the use of the NDAA you must not see how he could be using it just as intended. Either way it’s there for him to use if he wants.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Mon, 07/20/2020 - 3:16pm

My take is The Donald will rocket out of DC

https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1284512759934267392?s=20

just as soon as he can get away with it, once his term of office is up. Then he'll kick back and wallow in the glory of *having been* President without having to say or do anything to justify it, ever again. (Does this remind you of anybody?)

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 11:45am

Outstanding comment!

@snoopydawg Give an authoritarian a hammer and everything looks like a nail. Congress has long since abdicated its responsibility as an equal branch of government. They keep giving Trump everything he wants and yet they scream that he is dangerous. The hypocrisy of the Democrats (all of them including Bernie and Tulsi) just reeks while we the people have been stripped of nearly all our Constitutional rights under the guise of combating terrorism.

And remember that democrats just reauthorized the patriot act for the 'most dangerous president' to use at his discretion.

On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield.

The breadth of the NDAA’s worldwide detention authority violates the Constitution and international law because it is not limited to people captured in an actual armed conflict, as required by the laws of war. Under the Bush administration, similar claims of worldwide detention authority were used to hold even a U.S. citizen captured on U.S. soil in military custody, and many in Congress assert that the NDAA should be used in the same way. The ACLU does not believe that the NDAA authorizes military detention of American citizens or anyone else in the United States. Any president’s claim of domestic military detention authority under the NDAA would be unconstitutional and illegal. Nevertheless, there is substantial public debate around whether the NDAA could be read even to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act and authorize indefinite military detention without charge or trial within the United States.

Both Congress and the president need to clean up the mess they have created. No one should live in fear of this or any future president misusing the NDAA’s detention authority. The NDAA’s detention provisions must be repealed.

Many warned Obama to not leave this in place for future presidents, but he did and here we are now seeing Trump using it. Barr was asking congress for permission to put this into effect. And remember that democrats just reauthorized the patriot act for the 'most dangerous president' to use at his discretion. I have asked Bernie to address this, but I’ve yet to hear from him.

I remember arguing with people about how secret courts making secret laws did not make them legal, but it went as well as arguing against drones making us more safe.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by wendy davis on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 9:55am

'reversing the pink tide'

by lawfare has been an ongoing project, and IS operation condor redux: lula and dilma in brazil, maduro in VZ, evo (now acré) in bolivia. on edit: (and daniel ortega, iirc). but those projects were started under obomba.

the 'kidnapped and disappeared' is taking a page out of the IDF tactics, as well as India’s draconian Armed Forces Special Powers Act and enforced disappearances of muslims.

on my 'lawfare in bolivia' post i'd grabbed this from orinoco news on twitter, thinking you might see it:

Everyone freaked out when we saw a masked goon patrol rounding people up like this after a fascist coup in Bolivia. This is Portland. https://t.co/F2GG0NSqfg

— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) July 15, 2020

from RT this a.m.: 'Oregon attorney general files lawsuit against federal agencies amid reports that officers ‘kidnapped’ Portland protesters’, 18 Jul, 2020

Boss Tweet was right about one thing: #ShitholeNation

and getting shittier.

Submitted by Blue Republic on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 8:56am

Antifa/BLM/BAMN and the like

have been engaging in violence and violating people's civil rights
in Portland for *years*. And have been enabled by Portland's mayor and Oregon's governor.

Ironic that the left has now suddenly discovered State's Rights.

Remember the destruction, vandalism and violence that accompanied the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a few years back? Well, if you don't, it's essentially because there wasn't any - on the part of the protestors. Which is in major contrast to the situation in Portland where there was extensive rioting after Trump won, numerous instances of violence and interference with the right of assembly and free speech of groups like Patriot Prayer and, since George Floyd's death, (along with a fair amount of legitimate, peaceful protest) pretty much nightly looting and or vandalism, arson and etc.

In the Malheur occupation Gov. Kate Brown couldn't leave a relatively calm and peaceful situation alone and was vocally *demanding* a federal response and that the occupiers be prosecuted as terrorists. Which led to the ambush by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team of Ammon Bundy and Lavoy Finicum and the death of the latter.

The government overcharged in its prosecution and was only able to secure convictions for a few of the minor figures, all the surviving leaders were acquitted.

Of course the FBI agent who recklessly shot (8 times, striking it twice) at Finicum's vehicle from over 100 yards away and then lied about it walked...

Sentiment on DK at the time was approximately that drawing and quartering would be too good for the occupiers.

My how times change. Fast forward a few years and Kate Brown is outraged at federale involvement - when she and Ted Wheeler have not only failed to rein in antifa/BLM violence and abuse - they have barely bothered to pretend they are even trying to do so.

For over fifty years after the Constitution was adopted - until the Fugitive Slave Act came along - there were no regular fedcops because there were almost no federal criminal laws to enforce, which is the way it should be.

So, nobody should be happy about what's going on, and due process rights of anyone arrested
should be observed. But for Oregon and Washington politicians to condemn the USG for stepping in in what is (so far) a limited way when they have UTTERLY ABDICATED their own responsibilities is beyond hypocritical.

As an exiled Oregonian and former (20 years) Portlander I say screw 'em.

If there is a moral here, maybe it's to be careful what you wish for.

Portland Police Chief

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDlGmiirkjU]

Portland "mostly peaceful protest"

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt5ALeWv4U]

What it's like to be a Black officer policing Portland protests (unedited interview)

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-7SETmJD4]

Submitted by Deja on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:43am

Interesting, and made me wonder

@Blue Republic
The whole Portland "thing" has had me seriously confused for a while now. I am completely baffled by the extended protests. I get it that injustice has no borders, and solidarity in standing up for justice should have no borders either. However, George Floyd's murder did not happen in Portland. How can the nightly destruction of property, or the CHAZ or whatever it's called takeover of city property be justified as an effort to promote justice for police brutality? It kinda reminds me of the IRA and how their message was drowned out by their delivery. People won't listen to your original message if that message morphs into violence, and death. Head scratcher for sure!

Secondly, I wonder if the governor is condemning the Feds swooping in and kidnapping "protesters" that are out in the middle of the night, when no one is out there to see the protest or hear the message, because she has (or has knowledge of) agents provacatur and it's a hella hassle to deal with that mess with the Feds involved. Regarding the federal land squatting, it was "federal land" after all, but maybe she had no dog in the fight, so meh, bring in the Feds. Just some what if thinking.

As I said before, the whole Portland thing is a real head scratcher!

have been engaging in violence and violating people's civil rights in Portland for *years*. And have been enabled by Portland's mayor and Oregon's governor. Ironic that the left has now suddenly discovered State's Rights. Remember the destruction, vandalism and violence that accompanied the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a few years back? Well, if you don't, it's essentially because there wasn't any - on the part of the protestors. Which is in major contrast to the situation in Portland where there was extensive rioting after Trump won, numerous instances of violence and interference with the right of assembly and free speech of groups like Patriot Prayer and, since George Floyd's death, (along with a fair amount of legitimate, peaceful protest) pretty much nightly looting and or vandalism, arson and etc. In the Malheur occupation Gov. Kate Brown couldn't leave a relatively calm and peaceful situation alone and was vocally *demanding* a federal response and that the occupiers be prosecuted as terrorists. Which led to the ambush by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team of Ammon Bundy and Lavoy Finicum and the death of the latter. The government overcharged in its prosecution and was only able to secure convictions for a few of the minor figures, all the surviving leaders were acquitted. Of course the FBI agent who recklessly shot (8 times, striking it twice) at Finicum's vehicle from over 100 yards away and then lied about it walked... Sentiment on DK at the time was approximately that drawing and quartering would be too good for the occupiers. My how times change. Fast forward a few years and Kate Brown is outraged at federale involvement - when she and Ted Wheeler have not only failed to rein in antifa/BLM violence and abuse - they have barely bothered to pretend they are even trying to do so. For over fifty years after the Constitution was adopted - until the Fugitive Slave Act came along - there were no regular fedcops because there were almost no federal criminal laws to enforce, which is the way it should be. So, nobody should be happy about what's going on, and due process rights of anyone arrested should be observed. But for Oregon and Washington politicians to condemn the USG for stepping in in what is (so far) a limited way when they have UTTERLY ABDICATED their own responsibilities is beyond hypocritical. As an exiled Oregonian and former (20 years) Portlander I say screw 'em. If there is a moral here, maybe it's to be careful what you wish for. Portland Police Chief [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDlGmiirkjU] Portland "mostly peaceful protest" [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt5ALeWv4U] What it's like to be a Black officer policing Portland protests (unedited interview) [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-7SETmJD4]

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 12:00pm

These protests are all over the country

@Deja And they are not just about George Floyd's murder in Minneapolis, but about police brutality and the police state that we are all being subjected to. The brazen murder of George Floyd in broad daylight has been the catalyst for these protests. Black people are disproportionately singled out and killed by police over very minor crimes. Just because the Floyd murder did not occur in these other cities, protesters are still recognizing the grave injustices in our society and are standing up to call our attention to them. They are risking their lives and their physical well being to do so and I applaud them. We need more people to stand up against injustice, wars, and the oppressive police state that has been created in this country.

BTW, the CHAZ was in Seattle, not Portland.

One more thing, no city should be invaded by unmarked federal forces against their will. These are Gestapo like tactics we are witnessing and they are chilling to see and read about. The present in Portland portends a grim future for us elsewhere or everywhere. If Portland does not want these federal thugs there, they should not be there...period.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Deja on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 12:32pm

Who sees a protest in the middle of the night?

@gulfgal98
Who hears the message? Are they out there with banners and signs in an organized march like in other cities, or are they people running around destroying property? The latter is not a protest unless their message is promoting fear of having property destroyed and more lives at risk.

If the nightly marauding is trying to promote the message of ending police brutality, they're missing the mark and damaging the real protests and the true message.

And I agree, no city should have the Feds swooping in and kidnapping people. Same as no city should have to live in fear of having their businesses or homes destroyed because people are roaming the streets at night claiming to be protesting injustice. There are protestors and rioters. No city in the US is going to issue permits for unorganized gangs of people to roam the streets and terrify the rest of the population.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 2:49pm

Revolution is never tidy nor

@Deja @Deja is it ever sanctioned by the powers that be. Revolution is necessarily messy and does not adhere to permits and other roadblocks set up by the powers that be. Otherwise a protest is not really a protest, if it is permitted and sanctioned by the powers that be, but is simply a parade. Witness the original act of civil disobedience in this country...the Boston Tea Party.

The powers that be will do everything they can to prevent change and that includes firing into unarmed peaceful protesters, or beating up random protesters, and even using agent provocateurs to discredit and destroy protest movements. The vast majority of violence at protests is initiated by the police themselves.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Deja on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 6:11pm

So unfettered anarchy is perfectly acceptable now?

@gulfgal98
No one has actually told me what the message of late night protests that nobody is seeing until the people participating in the 100% peaceful and non destructive protests (/s) are scooped up by masked forces, so I found this one. She's actually speaking in the daylight. Why do they need the cover of darkness in order to "demonstrate" they want to "abolish the United States"?

Can't remember how to embed a tweet. Short video in tweet of her stating what they're hoping for or demanding.

1st amendment is a right. You cross the line when you vandalize or destroy things. OWS didn't roam around the streets under cover of darkness. They stayed put day and night until they were forcefully disbanded. They had a very good message that I supported. I easily support the demilitarization of the police. I do not support people claiming to be protesting while they roam the streets in the dark, destroying property, demanding the abolition of the United States. I support their right to say it, but Anarchy ain't my cup of tea, and CHAZ (in Seattle) proved they can't keep from killing each other or maintain even slight order.

These aren't peace-loving hippies living and sharing communally (though there was some sharing in CHAZ); they act more like militant anarchists. When did you switch from peace to Anarchy? Nobody should have unknown goons scooping people up. On the other hand, why isn't the mayor or governor doing something to stop it by now with their own police instead of having them out there being pelted with frozen water bottles? It's been two months already!

Mayor Turner went live on TV and said he absolutely supported marching and protesting in Houston. He even encouraged it noting that he understood the angst they felt, but he also said that destruction of personal and city property was not the way to do it and he wouldn't tolerate it. That is commendable. Burning it all down is not. Houston had relatively little damage, and George Floyd was from Houston. People who actually knew the man, were related to him marched more than once. We've actually had a march for the murdered Ft Hood soldier since then. Some people peacefully marched for both. (Is this a regional thing, because we don't riot when we win championships or when millions of us prep for a hurricane on its way, all at the same time, either.)

Portland looks like a bunch of mostly white middle class or better kids using the cover of "protesting the murder of George Floyd" in an effort to drown out what started as a righteous cause and turn it into not just an anarchy shit show, but assisting in the advancement of more of a police state. Many of them are even wearing their own little uniforms to better help them blend into the dark.

Like I said upthread, the IRA lost much of their support because their delivery of the message turned violent and deadly. Same could probably be said about Hamas. However, neither of those groups have declared that they want their own countries abolished. I will never support that -- only the right to say it. My support stops when it turns into all out destruction and anarchy.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 9:08am

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions

@Deja @Deja The question is why do people feel compelled to risk their lives and the physical well being when they know the police are there to tear gas them, beat them with night sticks, or even shoot them with "less than lethal" weapons which may not kill, but have maimed many protesters?

Read the JFK quote in my sig line. People who are secure in their economic and social status do not go into the streets at great peril to themselves. People who have been pushed to the brink and those with nothing left to lose do. And yes, there is collateral damage to businesses and statues. The vast majority of protesters are not looting or "rioting" and we still do not know how many incidents are being started by agent provocateurs.

So we can talk about decorum all you want, but the real way to stop this is to solve the underlying problems. And for some reason no one really wants to even talk about those underlying issues, let alone solve them. And they can be solved. One more thing, it is going to get much worse in the near future when we have a massive wave of newly homeless people hit our streets.

#9.1.1.1.1
No one has actually told me what the message of late night protests that nobody is seeing until the people participating in the 100% peaceful and non destructive protests (/s) are scooped up by masked forces, so I found this one. She's actually speaking in the daylight. Why do they need the cover of darkness in order to "demonstrate" they want to "abolish the United States"?

Can't remember how to embed a tweet. Short video in tweet of her stating what they're hoping for or demanding.

https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1284512759934267392?s=20

1st amendment is a right. You cross the line when you vandalize or destroy things. OWS didn't roam around the streets under cover of darkness. They stayed put day and night until they were forcefully disbanded. They had a very good message that I supported. I easily support the demilitarization of the police. I do not support people claiming to be protesting while they roam the streets in the dark, destroying property, demanding the abolition of the United States. I support their right to say it, but Anarchy ain't my cup of tea, and CHAZ (in Seattle) proved they can't keep from killing each other or maintain even slight order.

These aren't peace-loving hippies living and sharing communally (though there was some sharing in CHAZ); they act more like militant anarchists. When did you switch from peace to Anarchy? Nobody should have unknown goons scooping people up. On the other hand, why isn't the mayor or governor doing something to stop it by now with their own police instead of having them out there being pelted with frozen water bottles? It's been two months already!

Mayor Turner went live on TV and said he absolutely supported marching and protesting in Houston. He even encouraged it noting that he understood the angst they felt, but he also said that destruction of personal and city property was not the way to do it and he wouldn't tolerate it. That is commendable. Burning it all down is not. Houston had relatively little damage, and George Floyd was from Houston. People who actually knew the man, were related to him marched more than once. We've actually had a march for the murdered Ft Hood soldier since then. Some people peacefully marched for both. (Is this a regional thing, because we don't riot when we win championships or when millions of us prep for a hurricane on its way, all at the same time, either.)

Portland looks like a bunch of mostly white middle class or better kids using the cover of "protesting the murder of George Floyd" in an effort to drown out what started as a righteous cause and turn it into not just an anarchy shit show, but assisting in the advancement of more of a police state. Many of them are even wearing their own little uniforms to better help them blend into the dark.

Like I said upthread, the IRA lost much of their support because their delivery of the message turned violent and deadly. Same could probably be said about Hamas. However, neither of those groups have declared that they want their own countries abolished. I will never support that -- only the right to say it. My support stops when it turns into all out destruction and anarchy.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by Deja on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 3:03pm

The homeless

@gulfgal98
I wonder if the newly homeless will demonstrate? I wonder if it will be covered in the msm if they do? God knows they have every right to be angry. Something tells me they won't be vandalizing or destroying things. Some might turn to theft or other crime as a desperate means of survival. It makes me sad.

I don't know how to fix all the problems that the people in Portland are angry about. I support their right to say it until they start impeding on others' rights and destroying things. I'm baffled as to the reasoning behind their tactics. It screams counter productive to me. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but sometimes it gets replaced. I hope they don't help usher in more of a police state, but I fear they will. Sure, the building they burned was the police union, but it still doesn't make sense, probably because I wasn't raised to destroy things when I don't get what I want. You can call it decorum. I call it criminal and stoking fear in anyone who might be called collateral damage after the fact. It's simply unacceptable to me.

My brother recently started working for a religious based homeless shelter that hands out food and mail, but houses no one. They have the facilities, even with dorm like rooms, but it is empty. I have no idea why. I know there is going to be a rising tide of homelessness soon. I don't know what to do about that either. I certainly hope someone who hates the fact that no one is being housed there, or hates the cops, or hates Trump, or hates Biden, or hates something doesn't come along and burn the place to the ground and call it a protest.

This whole thing has hurt my heart.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 4:50pm

Ahh but is it true?

Do we even know what time it was when they got picked up? Was it after midnight or before and people were just walking home from one?

Same as no city should have to live in fear of having their businesses or homes destroyed because people are roaming the streets at night claiming to be protesting injustice. There are protestors and rioters. No city in the US is going to issue permits for unorganized gangs of people to roam the streets and terrify the rest of the population.

I agree with this, but who is actually doing the rioting? Most protests I’ve seen have been peaceful and people are walking in the streets. I’m not denying that no rioting or violence has taken place. But isn’t it funny how that usually happens when people are protesting against the banks, police brutality, but not when folks from the right do it? I didn’t hear of any rioting happening during the open up protests. Nor did I see cops shooting their less lethal weapons at them. So maybe it’s not regular folks doing it, but the outside agitators that usually show up to these types of events that are?

I question everything I’m told until I can see it’s been verified.

Good to see you here. How’s life?

Submitted by Deja on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 6:31pm

Hey snoop!

@snoopydawg
Apparently, and I did not know this, they've been protesting nightly. I guess they don't sleep? Or they all used to work at night and because of The Rona they can't work anymore?

The clip I just saw on the news showed a young white guy in all black getting walked away in cuffs. His clothes matched what others were wearing. Like uniforms. Maybe they are all plants. Sounds improbable to me. And 2 months after Floyd's death? Come on! If that is what they are protesting, they've missed the point with their tactics, imo. This has morphed into anarchy and I hate it. It's only going to bring the opposite -- more police brutality. Maybe that's the ultimate goal.

How many people can they import without it getting leaked, though?

I'm okay other than the shit show that has become of the world and the US. How are you?

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 7:42pm

And 2 months after Floyd's death?

What has changed so that people don’t have to protest police brutality? I’m still seeing videos of cops beating the shit out of people who are trying to cooperate with them. And cops putting their knees on people’s necks and other violence against people.
Maybe you haven’t seen or read about them but that’s why people are still protesting. Nothing has changed for them.

Again who is actually doing the rioting and destruction. As I pointed out previously.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 5:35pm

Why did cops think they had the right to do this?

.@MrOlmos captured that last charge beautifully. In this sort of carnage you see how some quite literally cannot get out of the way in time and are beaten for their troubles. https://t.co/nO7WP1dk7X https://t.co/NeRQCVuXjZ

— Donovan “It was the blurst of times” Farley (@DonovanFarley) July 18, 2020

People were not doing anything wrong or violent and yet cops rushed them and beat a few just because they could. This is what I’ve seen happening over and over during leftist protests going back decades. Remember Kent state? This is why there is violence, not just because of outside agitators.

Submitted by Deja on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 6:47pm

They're being told to leave

@snoopydawg
When I was a bartender, I had to get people to leave when it was time. They certainly didn't have to hit anyone.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just old fashioned and country. When I found out my son (teen at the time) was wandering the streets in a small town, at night, with two of his friends I was livid. I get protesting, but just being in the middle of the street en mass is being assholes, not protesting imo. They seem like they're just there to be there. None were holding banners or signs up. They weren't chanting a message. They appeared to be there to poke the bear, just cause a reaction. And they got one, now they're victims. Bs. Go home and get busy changing laws. You don't do that by getting run over in a heard of people when cops bullrush you or getting accosted by unmarked goon squads.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 7:50pm

Told to leave

What gives them the right to tell people who are using their right to protest to go home? If we’re not free to use our rights then it’s over. Too many states are passing laws restricting our right to do it. I don’t want to live in this country if our rights are so easily revoked. Your bar had set hours right? I see a big difference between that and people protesting. Are we now to have set rules for doing it? Again remember Kent state. They didn’t do what they were told either and 4 people were murdered by the guard.

They appeared to be there to poke the bear, just cause a reaction. And they got one, now they're victims. Bs. Go home and get busy changing laws.

How do you know that they were doing that? As for changing laws....? Good luck with that.

And just because they told them to leave it doesn’t give them the right to attack them like that did in this video. None whatsoever. Sorry if you don’t see that.

Submitted by FuturePassed on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 12:52pm

Wow, a dumpster fire!

@Blue Republic
Kill 'em all.

have been engaging in violence and violating people's civil rights in Portland for *years*. And have been enabled by Portland's mayor and Oregon's governor. Ironic that the left has now suddenly discovered State's Rights. Remember the destruction, vandalism and violence that accompanied the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a few years back? Well, if you don't, it's essentially because there wasn't any - on the part of the protestors. Which is in major contrast to the situation in Portland where there was extensive rioting after Trump won, numerous instances of violence and interference with the right of assembly and free speech of groups like Patriot Prayer and, since George Floyd's death, (along with a fair amount of legitimate, peaceful protest) pretty much nightly looting and or vandalism, arson and etc. In the Malheur occupation Gov. Kate Brown couldn't leave a relatively calm and peaceful situation alone and was vocally *demanding* a federal response and that the occupiers be prosecuted as terrorists. Which led to the ambush by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team of Ammon Bundy and Lavoy Finicum and the death of the latter. The government overcharged in its prosecution and was only able to secure convictions for a few of the minor figures, all the surviving leaders were acquitted. Of course the FBI agent who recklessly shot (8 times, striking it twice) at Finicum's vehicle from over 100 yards away and then lied about it walked... Sentiment on DK at the time was approximately that drawing and quartering would be too good for the occupiers. My how times change. Fast forward a few years and Kate Brown is outraged at federale involvement - when she and Ted Wheeler have not only failed to rein in antifa/BLM violence and abuse - they have barely bothered to pretend they are even trying to do so. For over fifty years after the Constitution was adopted - until the Fugitive Slave Act came along - there were no regular fedcops because there were almost no federal criminal laws to enforce, which is the way it should be. So, nobody should be happy about what's going on, and due process rights of anyone arrested should be observed. But for Oregon and Washington politicians to condemn the USG for stepping in in what is (so far) a limited way when they have UTTERLY ABDICATED their own responsibilities is beyond hypocritical. As an exiled Oregonian and former (20 years) Portlander I say screw 'em. If there is a moral here, maybe it's to be careful what you wish for. Portland Police Chief [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDlGmiirkjU] Portland "mostly peaceful protest" [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt5ALeWv4U] What it's like to be a Black officer policing Portland protests (unedited interview) [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-7SETmJD4]

Submitted by Shahryar on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 5:46pm

We certainly are polite

to let such hogwash appear here. Antifa and BLM have not, of course, been violating people's rights. The whole screed is chock full of ignorant ranting.

Antifa and BLM are not the ones causing injuries. As for BAMN, I had to look them up. I've never seen such a group here *in Portland*! Where do you get your "news"?

I feel so sorry that you've been exiled, as you say, as if it was somebody else's choice. Face it, you and Portland or any other place where it's not a hotbed of rightwingers is a bad match.

I find the people who are maddest about the way people here live are suburbanites from Clackamas, Beaverton, or Vancouver. Hopefully you're there or someplace more appropriate for the way you think.

have been engaging in violence and violating people's civil rights in Portland for *years*. And have been enabled by Portland's mayor and Oregon's governor. Ironic that the left has now suddenly discovered State's Rights. Remember the destruction, vandalism and violence that accompanied the occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge a few years back? Well, if you don't, it's essentially because there wasn't any - on the part of the protestors. Which is in major contrast to the situation in Portland where there was extensive rioting after Trump won, numerous instances of violence and interference with the right of assembly and free speech of groups like Patriot Prayer and, since George Floyd's death, (along with a fair amount of legitimate, peaceful protest) pretty much nightly looting and or vandalism, arson and etc. In the Malheur occupation Gov. Kate Brown couldn't leave a relatively calm and peaceful situation alone and was vocally *demanding* a federal response and that the occupiers be prosecuted as terrorists. Which led to the ambush by the FBI Hostage Rescue Team of Ammon Bundy and Lavoy Finicum and the death of the latter. The government overcharged in its prosecution and was only able to secure convictions for a few of the minor figures, all the surviving leaders were acquitted. Of course the FBI agent who recklessly shot (8 times, striking it twice) at Finicum's vehicle from over 100 yards away and then lied about it walked... Sentiment on DK at the time was approximately that drawing and quartering would be too good for the occupiers. My how times change. Fast forward a few years and Kate Brown is outraged at federale involvement - when she and Ted Wheeler have not only failed to rein in antifa/BLM violence and abuse - they have barely bothered to pretend they are even trying to do so. For over fifty years after the Constitution was adopted - until the Fugitive Slave Act came along - there were no regular fedcops because there were almost no federal criminal laws to enforce, which is the way it should be. So, nobody should be happy about what's going on, and due process rights of anyone arrested should be observed. But for Oregon and Washington politicians to condemn the USG for stepping in in what is (so far) a limited way when they have UTTERLY ABDICATED their own responsibilities is beyond hypocritical. As an exiled Oregonian and former (20 years) Portlander I say screw 'em. If there is a moral here, maybe it's to be careful what you wish for. Portland Police Chief [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDlGmiirkjU] Portland "mostly peaceful protest" [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kt5ALeWv4U] What it's like to be a Black officer policing Portland protests (unedited interview) [video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-7SETmJD4]

Submitted by Blue Republic on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:29am

Make assumptions much?

@Shahryar

I've lived in a number of places in the Portland area, last of which was Woodlawn - pre-gentrification - and got along fine with nearly all my neighbors, black, white, Korean... and could be lulled to sleep on a nightly basis by gunfire from the projects.

I'm also one of the co-founders of the Pacific Green Party (the "Green" was added later - the Pacific Party name was my idea) and have myself been arrested at a political protest (protesting Bush I) in the same area as the current insanity has been going on.

So. Stereotype all you want (while enjoying the view from Mt. Tabor) - it has as little basis in reality as your perception of antifa and BLM as peaceful protestors.

Ever heard of this law?

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 Conspiracy Against Rights

This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same).

It further makes it unlawful for two or more persons to go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another with the intent to prevent or hinder his/her free exercise or enjoyment of any rights so secured.

Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both; and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years, or for life.

Go back and look at antifa's counter demonstrations to Patriot Prayer's marches, vigils and such over the last few years and tell me they have not violated PP's right to peaceably assemble. They have repeatedly engaged in violence and intimidation against them. Oh, but they are Nazis, right - so they have no rights? Wrong and wrong. They are not Nazis (have had some questionable types and likely provocateurs) and *do* have the same rights as anyone else (and would even if they *were* Nazis).

No, I do not support the NDAA (and have posted to that effect here on multiple occasions), no, I do not want to see anyone deprived of due process or disappeared into some Gitmo-like black hole prison. In fact, I'd just as soon Guantanamo Bay was given back to Cuba.

Cling to your view of these people as noble revolutionaries if you want (right up until the time they decide to ~~loot~~ liberate your neighborhood). I say they are (mostly) thugs and useful idiots - more akin to Brown Shirts and Red Guards - and will likely be dispensed with just as quickly when their usefulness is at an end. Except for the non-ideological pro's that will transition readily into the secret police of the new order (or the old one, they are flexible).

As anarchists, these guys are lame. Malatesta, Kropotkin or Bakunin they are not. If they want do do something revolutionary let them do something useful like taking out the Utah Data Center and I'll start to be impressed. But they are more about (if there are five or ten of them) beating the crap out of someone wearing a MAGA hat. Lame and wrong.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 11:34am

Laws for the little people, not the Establishment

I think I can guarantee that no agents provocateurs, no matter whose, even if they are caught in the act, will ever be prosecuted under that law.

Laws are meant to be used against the "little people", to keep them in line. Not for cops, CIA agents, or other Deep State conspirators.

#9.3 I've lived in a number of places in the Portland area, last of which was Woodlawn - pre-gentrification - and got along fine with nearly all my neighbors, black, white, Korean... and could be lulled to sleep on a nightly basis by gunfire from the projects. I'm also one of the co-founders of the Pacific Green Party (the "Green" was added later - the Pacific Party name was my idea) and have myself been arrested at a political protest (protesting Bush I) in the same area as the current insanity has been going on. So. Stereotype all you want (while enjoying the view from Mt. Tabor) - it has as little basis in reality as your perception of antifa and BLM as peaceful protestors. Ever heard of this law? Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 Conspiracy Against Rights This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same). It further makes it unlawful for two or more persons to go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another with the intent to prevent or hinder his/her free exercise or enjoyment of any rights so secured. Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both; and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years, or for life. Go back and look at antifa's counter demonstrations to Patriot Prayer's marches, vigils and such over the last few years and tell me they have not violated PP's right to peaceably assemble. They have repeatedly engaged in violence and intimidation against them. Oh, but they are Nazis, right - so they have no rights? Wrong and wrong. They are not Nazis (have had some questionable types and likely provocateurs) and *do* have the same rights as anyone else (and would even if they *were* Nazis). No, I do not support the NDAA (and have posted to that effect here on multiple occasions), no, I do not want to see anyone deprived of due process or disappeared into some Gitmo-like black hole prison. In fact, I'd just as soon Guantanamo Bay was given back to Cuba. Cling to your view of these people as noble revolutionaries if you want (right up until the time they decide to ~~loot~~ liberate your neighborhood). I say they are (mostly) thugs and useful idiots - more akin to Brown Shirts and Red Guards - and will likely be dispensed with just as quickly when their usefulness is at an end. Except for the non-ideological pro's that will transition readily into the secret police of the new order (or the old one, they are flexible). As anarchists, these guys are lame. Malatesta, Kropotkin or Bakunin they are not. If they want do do something revolutionary let them do something useful like taking out the Utah Data Center and I'll start to be impressed. But they are more about (if there are five or ten of them) beating the crap out of someone wearing a MAGA hat. Lame and wrong.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by Shahryar on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 1:13pm

interesting comparison of groups

https://newrepublic.com/article/158557/trump-administration-treating-us-...

Patriot Prayer: "have had some questionable types and likely provocateurs"

BLM: "they are (mostly) thugs and useful idiots"

the old "a couple of bad apples" vs ...well, you said it.

If it's true that you were a Green, what happened to you to make you flip to the other side, where you now are anti-anti-fascist?

#9.3 I've lived in a number of places in the Portland area, last of which was Woodlawn - pre-gentrification - and got along fine with nearly all my neighbors, black, white, Korean... and could be lulled to sleep on a nightly basis by gunfire from the projects. I'm also one of the co-founders of the Pacific Green Party (the "Green" was added later - the Pacific Party name was my idea) and have myself been arrested at a political protest (protesting Bush I) in the same area as the current insanity has been going on. So. Stereotype all you want (while enjoying the view from Mt. Tabor) - it has as little basis in reality as your perception of antifa and BLM as peaceful protestors. Ever heard of this law? Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241 Conspiracy Against Rights This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same). It further makes it unlawful for two or more persons to go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another with the intent to prevent or hinder his/her free exercise or enjoyment of any rights so secured. Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both; and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years, or for life. Go back and look at antifa's counter demonstrations to Patriot Prayer's marches, vigils and such over the last few years and tell me they have not violated PP's right to peaceably assemble. They have repeatedly engaged in violence and intimidation against them. Oh, but they are Nazis, right - so they have no rights? Wrong and wrong. They are not Nazis (have had some questionable types and likely provocateurs) and *do* have the same rights as anyone else (and would even if they *were* Nazis). No, I do not support the NDAA (and have posted to that effect here on multiple occasions), no, I do not want to see anyone deprived of due process or disappeared into some Gitmo-like black hole prison. In fact, I'd just as soon Guantanamo Bay was given back to Cuba. Cling to your view of these people as noble revolutionaries if you want (right up until the time they decide to ~~loot~~ liberate your neighborhood). I say they are (mostly) thugs and useful idiots - more akin to Brown Shirts and Red Guards - and will likely be dispensed with just as quickly when their usefulness is at an end. Except for the non-ideological pro's that will transition readily into the secret police of the new order (or the old one, they are flexible). As anarchists, these guys are lame. Malatesta, Kropotkin or Bakunin they are not. If they want do do something revolutionary let them do something useful like taking out the Utah Data Center and I'll start to be impressed. But they are more about (if there are five or ten of them) beating the crap out of someone wearing a MAGA hat. Lame and wrong.

Submitted by Blue Republic on Tue, 07/21/2020 - 11:03am

@Shahryar

@Shahryar

I switched from Republican (from Pacific Green, from D before that) in response to this July, 2011 appeal in the Huffington Post for peacenik Democrats and Independents to register Republican to support Ron Paul in the 2012 primary cycle.

Don't often have a lot of incentive to stay R, but even less to go elsewhere.

As far as "sides" go, I'm more concerned with actions and principles. The actions of antifa indicate that they are intolerant, often violently so, of anyone with opinions diverging from their own. They are all about total freedom for themselves (including being free from personal responsibility for their actions) yet routinely try to deny other's rights - such as to peaceably assemble or just to walk down the street wearing a MAGA hat without being physically attacked. Yet, anyone they don't approve of is collectively held responsible (for slavery, for example) for something they had no role in or for something they simply are (white, for example).

As someone opposed to not only fascism but all other forms of statist authoritarianism I am not opposed to real anti-fascists. But I am opposed to violent thugs whether they come with badges, gang colors or black masks and whether they call themselves antifa, BLM or the Mother Teresa Sewing Circle.

Actions speak louder than words and antifa's are geared toward promoting hatred, division and distraction in society - an excellent deal for the elite but disastrous for the rest of us if we continue to buy into it.

An alternative to the false left-right paradigm

L-R paradign alternative None Dare Call_0.jpg

from "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" by Gary Allen (1971) You can bet Bill Clinton read this and so should you.

"If you have a right to respect, that means other people don't have a right to their own opinions."

- Thomas Sowell

More peaceful Portland protest

Submitted by wendy davis on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 8:28am

i think it's good that

@Shahryar

folks like blue republic are here. for one thing, they cause others to sharpen their arguments, beliefs, observations and experiences into a wider view, including the history of what amerika has become.

think: the marketplace of ideas.

now i admit i really don't give a fig about 'how a black cop feels' seeing 'kill all police' graffiti, even 'off the pig'. we all know that when a black cop (or other skin hues) zips on the uniform of the state...they become the enforcers for the state. and no matter how you slice it, cops are the enforcers of capitalism, depending on their orders or natures.

they can choose not to be Pigs, as far too many today are, as the ones who'd assassinated george floyd. new body-cam videos have been released in a very limited basis, and as it turns out, the Pig Chauvin had knelt on his neck for nine and a half minutes.

from barnes law on twitter:

@Barnes_Law 'Interesting allegation from #GeorgeFloyd suit, that may be both the key to the criminal defense, and the key to civil liability against the city: "MPD's written policies authorized the use of a deadly neck restraint in non-deadly circumstances."

now even if it were legal, it doesn't mean cops should be such dark-hearted, evil sociopaths. but every major city and nation has their own George Floyds, as we saw in the global BLM protests. and yes, it's a handy acronym, not of the three women who'd 'founded' and claim ownership of that hashtag or whatever, and are funded by what? the ford foundation?

Submitted by RantingRooster on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 9:03am

Oh, they must be bad people right?

I mean, the Fed's wouldn't go after good people, right? I mean that awful graffiti could hurt someone ya know. It might just leap right off the building and smack someone upside the head with a BLM stick right?

"National Security", the wonder drug of government! Cures all liberties and freedoms!

Just keep your head buried in the sand, move along nothing to see here...right?

What's that saying about 1,000 imperceptible cuts....

[video:https://youtu.be/EDEv3Ey-Tfg]

Y'all should check out P.A.N.D.A.,

Since our founding, we have rapidly expanded into the largest organization in the country battling the NDAA, indefinite detention without charge or trial, and the application of the laws of war to U.S. soil and American citizens. We have pushed Anti-NDAA legislation in over 20 states and countless local jursdictions, including Oakland County, MI, Las Vegas, Nevada, and Sunbury, Pennsylvania, and have helped pass several pieces of legislation across the country. We have been covered by WND, the Activist Post, Interoccupy, Western Journalism and by countless radio shows, alternative media personalities, and articles. We have networked with over 100 liberty-oriented organizations and several alternative news sources.

Join us in the battle for the liberty and freedom of our country, spread the word on this dangerous law, and follow us to get all the latest news on the fight for liberty, and restoring our country to Constitutional Governance.

[video:https://youtu.be/RNcbsB1Pizg]

This is "key", Who is a Terrorist?

Here are the documents to prove it. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has over twenty different flyers they routinely give to business owners to “fight terrorism”, otherwise known as reporting your neighbor. They are listed here as well as a Missouri MIAC Report and a START report on Hotspots of Terrorism in the United States. There have been several incidents around the country where even complaining about your tap water can be considered an act of terrorism.

Meeting one single requirement in any of these flyers/reports is enough to make someone a “suspected terrorist”, and therefore covered by the NDAA.

(bold emphasis mine)

Even just raising your voice inside a "corporation" can get you targeted.

I wonder if I can start a business making IED's for people to use in and around their home entry's, to make life difficult for the Fed's. (dark snark)

(edit, added the StormCloudsGathering video)

—

C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 9:35am

This is another example of how Obama left the keys on the table

for the next President to drive the car. Now everyone is outraged that the driver is Trump and he is being reckless with that car. Only the ACLU and some other groups spoke up when Obama was doing his damage.

The same thing happened with Obama holding prayer groups in the Oval Office. Now Trump does the same thing (and worse) and now everyone is upset about it.

I hope every protester in Portland learns who signed that law. I hope Obama's role in this is made clear to everyone because I am fucking tired of the Dems getting away with this shit!

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by WoodsDweller on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 9:53am

And when that was passed

@Fishtroller 02 everyone was sure that Her was going to be the next Prez. I wonder what Clinton was planning to do with it.

—

Submitted by Cassiodorus on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:44am

Extra: the New Republic weighs in

—

The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.

Submitted by gulfgal98 on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 12:49pm

Good article

@Cassiodorus These thugs were dressed in army type fatigues and were not wearing badges or any type of identification as police. The man (Pettibone) who was kidnapped had no idea if they were simply right wing thugs or police. They refused to tell him if he was being charged with a crime or answer any of his questions. They tried to get him to waive his rights and when he refused to do so and asked for an attorney, they released him. He was never charged with a crime. The only crime that was committed was that of kidnapping of Mr. Pettibone by what turned out to be the Customs and Border Patrol.

Without any sort of attempt at legitimacy and accountability—or that thing we used to call due process—there’s little difference, in the moment, between a guy with a badge and a random kidnapper. Pettibone told OPB that he didn’t even realize he had been brought into a federal courthouse until after he was released; until that point, they were just guys with a minivan and guns, and there were more of them than there were of him, so they won. An encounter between members of a society quickly collapses into a crude calculation of relative power and force. The rules of schoolyard bullying become the foundation of “law and order.”

This has become the foundation of policing at all levels in this country. Bullies are hired to manhandle and maim citizens for the crime of exercising their First Amendment rights. Anyone who has seen a widely shown video of one of these snatch and grabs, should be terrified of what is happening in this country. We have no rights left in this country any more.

—

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 12:55pm

Jimmy: Obama has laid the foundations for a fascist

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzHlcioNUGU&list=TLPQMTcwNzIwMjCTHhhgP06...

Boy did Jimmy nail what is happening today under Trump and the federal officers in Portland.

This was from 12/1/2016, but unfortunately it got derailed into voting and other stuff, but the point stands.

The world came out in the millions to protest against the Iraq war under Bush, but then the anti war folks went to sleep after Obama became president and continued PNAC's goals in the Middle East by doing regime change in Libya and Syria. Hillary told us that Gaddaffi was handing out Viagra to his troops so that they could rape women more easily. And lo and behold someone did find empty boxes of Viagra on some of the military equipment. Problem was that they were dry when they were found just after a big rain storm. I can't find that article yet, but I will continue looking for it.

But here we are seeing people being upset for doing the things that Obama did without any push back. OWS. BLM. DAPL. Obama used private mercenaries to oversee security at Standing Rock. Bush got shit for using BlackWater a private mercenary organization during the aftermath of Katrina.

I love how this is so accurate.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 2:01pm

Lmao check out this naked women in Portland

Portland police ‘retreat’ after standoff with NAKED female protester

Police officers in Portland, Oregon were caught off guard after being approached by a nude female demonstrator, who lay down in the street and began performing yoga. The cops were then filmed “withdrawing.”

A woman wearing nothing except a mask and a beanie approached a group of officers clearing out the downtown area in the early hours of Saturday. A line of police and federal agents were standing at an intersection when the naked woman seemingly appeared out of nowhere.

PUSSY POWER pic.twitter.com/qMlmWxrX2Z

— Donovan “It was the blurst of times” Farley (@DonovanFarley) July 18, 2020

She won pic.twitter.com/XxHyI5JJoX

— Donovan “It was the blurst of times” Farley (@DonovanFarley) July 18, 2020

Submitted by Johnny Q on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 7:56pm

I've heard tthat nudity is OK in Portland

@snoopydawg as long as you're not at "full salute"
Not in a hurry to find out for myself, however.

—

They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:25pm

Laughing....

@Johnny Q

"Full salute"

Good one. Thanks for clueing me in on the nudity laws of Portland. I did wonder why she got away with doing that.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:22pm

She probably gave them a case of PTSD

...since what's left of their brains is rotted by porn.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sat, 07/18/2020 - 10:27pm

Well she certainly gave them an eye full

Even when I had a body like that I don’t think I’d have the guts to show it off with the whole world watching.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 3:00am

This very strange headline made me tingle ;-)

"Federal Agents Invade Portland, Citing Trump’s Executive Order Protecting Statues"

Except the word "statues" is creepy.
Maybe it was supposed to be "statutes?"

No matter.
I think I know where this concept-phrase came from — and I'll bet that US Secretary of State-Terrorism. Mike Pompeo, planted it in Trump's brain. (These DC psychopaths are so obvious and they never bother to clean up after themselves.) It mimics the language that China uses to describe its national security laws in Hong Kong. Perhaps it's one of the unconscious coincidences that are evoked by hypocrisy. US authorities are playing the role of China and casting Portland as Hong Kong.

But who could miss the delusional hysteria and self-serving propaganda spewing from US State Department In reaction to the State Security law that China just enacted for Hong Kong?

When Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997, it was agreed and codified that Hong Kong would keep its domestic legal system. The Hong Kong legal system is a common law one, based on a combination of English common law (developed from local cases and local legislation) now codified as the Basic Laws of Hong Kong, within the the constitutional framework of the People's Republic of China (PRC). China oversees the sovereignty of the Chinese nation. This is known as the principle of ‘one country, two systems'.

When China's sovereignty is challenged or threatened by outside forces anywhere inside China, including Hong Kong, it falls to the Chinese government, the CPC, to provide a security defense. Threats can include foreign military actions, cyber attacks, political infiltration and sedition, election meddling, local coups funded by foreign entities, conspiracy to commit treason, and violations of China's sovereignty by foreign forces.

For more than thirty years, China has been opening itself up to foreign influence and cooperation across many fronts — in business, media, Non-Governmental social agencies, education exchanges, and banking and investment opportunities. Through dialogue, China has accommodated this inflow of international influence, under the global standard that the foreign presence obeys the laws and regulations in China, and they do not attempt to mount an overthrow of China's current government. All American expats, wherever they live, understand this provision. American expats living in Mexico or Canada, for example, quickly learn they must not speak out about the politics or elections in their host country — even on their local message board or at the corner pub. If they are caught , they will be deported and banned.

Hong Kong's Basic Law does not have any provisions to protect China's national sovereignty, but it has a placeholder where China's Security Laws will step in to protect China should its sovereignty be threatened or attacked via Hong Kong. After Trump became President and turned the vicious Neocons loose at the State Department to attack China, China became watchful. When China's trade, military, maritime navigation, and diplomacy were attacked or slandered by the US — all of these were handled with quiet diplomacy by China's national government, the PRC. When the deadly Covid-19 coronavirus, which was developed in US biological warfare labs, was spread in Wuhan in late October 2019, this attack was quickly neutralized by the PRC. When US organizations began brainwashing and funding Hong Kong "Democracy" movements, and Taiwan nationals infiltrated to organize violent protests in Hong Kong — all in an attempt to destabilize Hong Kong and drive a wedge between it and the Chinese government, it was finally time for the PRC to stand up and peacefully contain this sedition.

Last week, the U.S. Senate has passed a bill placing sanctions on Chinese individuals and companies with the U.S. Commerce Department revoking Hong Kong's special status as a trading partner, on the ground that Beijing's national security law for Hong Kong undermines Hong Kong's autonomy and freedom.

But according to America's heritage foundation 2020 rankings, Hong Kong's economy is designated as the second freest in the world. It was THE FREEST a few years ago until the often violent demonstrations last year disrupted business activities and deterred investors.

This attempt to undermine and overthrow the local government of Hong Kong actually triggered a placeholder provision in Hong Kong's Basic Law. China was mandated to protect its own national sovereignty by protecting Hong Kong from destabilizing threats organized by foreign entities. Think the 2014 overthrow of the Ukrainian government organized by US funded NGOs in Kiev.

You are aware, of course, that you are witnessing the determined and ongoing attempt by the US to overthrow the Chinese government, right?

That's all you need to know, going forward.
Everything else is noise.

Submitted by Blue Republic on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 5:23am

Noise?

You are aware, of course, that you are witnessing the determined and ongoing attempt by the US to overthrow the Chinese government, right?

That's all you need to know, going forward.
Everything else is noise.

up

Including that China has been attempting for years to do the same thing to the US?

Thought that might be of some minor significance. Guess not, huh?

"Federal Agents Invade Portland, Citing Trump’s Executive Order Protecting Statues"

Except the word "statues" is creepy.
Maybe it was supposed to be "statutes?"

No matter.
I think I know where this concept-phrase came from — and I'll bet that US Secretary of State-Terrorism. Mike Pompeo, planted it in Trump's brain. (These DC psychopaths are so obvious and they never bother to clean up after themselves.) It mimics the language that China uses to describe its national security laws in Hong Kong. Perhaps it's one of the unconscious coincidences that are evoked by hypocrisy. US authorities are playing the role of China and casting Portland as Hong Kong.

But who could miss the delusional hysteria and self-serving propaganda spewing from US State Department In reaction to the State Security law that China just enacted for Hong Kong?

When Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997, it was agreed and codified that Hong Kong would keep its domestic legal system. The Hong Kong legal system is a common law one, based on a combination of English common law (developed from local cases and local legislation) now codified as the Basic Laws of Hong Kong, within the the constitutional framework of the People's Republic of China (PRC). China oversees the sovereignty of the Chinese nation. This is known as the principle of ‘one country, two systems'.

When China's sovereignty is challenged or threatened by outside forces anywhere inside China, including Hong Kong, it falls to the Chinese government, the CPC, to provide a security defense. Threats can include foreign military actions, cyber attacks, political infiltration and sedition, election meddling, local coups funded by foreign entities, conspiracy to commit treason, and violations of China's sovereignty by foreign forces.

For more than thirty years, China has been opening itself up to foreign influence and cooperation across many fronts — in business, media, Non-Governmental social agencies, education exchanges, and banking and investment opportunities. Through dialogue, China has accommodated this inflow of international influence, under the global standard that the foreign presence obeys the laws and regulations in China, and they do not attempt to mount an overthrow of China's current government. All American expats, wherever they live, understand this provision. American expats living in Mexico or Canada, for example, quickly learn they must not speak out about the politics or elections in their host country — even on their local message board or at the corner pub. If they are caught , they will be deported and banned.

Hong Kong's Basic Law does not have any provisions to protect China's national sovereignty, but it has a placeholder where China's Security Laws will step in to protect China should its sovereignty be threatened or attacked via Hong Kong. After Trump became President and turned the vicious Neocons loose at the State Department to attack China, China became watchful. When China's trade, military, maritime navigation, and diplomacy were attacked or slandered by the US — all of these were handled with quiet diplomacy by China's national government, the PRC. When the deadly Covid-19 coronavirus, which was developed in US biological warfare labs, was spread in Wuhan in late October 2019, this attack was quickly neutralized by the PRC. When US organizations began brainwashing and funding Hong Kong "Democracy" movements, and Taiwan nationals infiltrated to organize violent protests in Hong Kong — all in an attempt to destabilize Hong Kong and drive a wedge between it and the Chinese government, it was finally time for the PRC to stand up and peacefully contain this sedition.

Last week, the U.S. Senate has passed a bill placing sanctions on Chinese individuals and companies with the U.S. Commerce Department revoking Hong Kong's special status as a trading partner, on the ground that Beijing's national security law for Hong Kong undermines Hong Kong's autonomy and freedom.

But according to America's heritage foundation 2020 rankings, Hong Kong's economy is designated as the second freest in the world. It was THE FREEST a few years ago until the often violent demonstrations last year disrupted business activities and deterred investors.

.

This attempt to undermine and overthrow the local government of Hong Kong actually triggered a placeholder provision in Hong Kong's Basic Law. China was mandated to protect its own national sovereignty by protecting Hong Kong from destabilizing threats organized by foreign entities. Think the 2014 overthrow of the Ukrainian government organized by US funded NGOs in Kiev.

You are aware, of course, that you are witnessing the determined and ongoing attempt by the US to overthrow the Chinese government, right?

That's all you need to know, going forward.
Everything else is noise.

Submitted by TheOtherMaven on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 11:43am

Why would China want to bother?

They've got their hands full looking after their own people. Not saying they don't have spy-eyes reporting on US events (doesn't everyone nowadays?), but there's a lot of difference between just snooping and actually doing anything.

We know who has been fomenting coups d'etat around the world since 1953 - and it ain't the Chinese. This is the Atwater-Rove "defense": accuse your opponent(s), loudly and repeatedly, of planning to do whatever you are actually doing or have done.

—

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:06pm

This statement indicates a physical brain injury

...from which you cannot recover:

China has been attempting for years to [overthrow the US government].

This is likely something that was done to you in your formative years. You don't seem able to mask its effects, which manifest as a complete void in intellectual honesty. I would guess this injury has often undermined your personal and professional life. It is a cruel fate for someone who is otherwise bright. You may not be aware of your condition. You can be coached to better compensate for it.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:12pm

You are gonna need to back this up with links

if you want us to take it seriously. Just what have they been doing?

Including that China has been attempting for years to do the same thing to the US?

IF that is true we kinda made it easy for them by offshoring jobs and factories to China don't you think? The only ones I have seen taking over the country is the banks and corporations that have written so many of our laws in their favor and at our expense.

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:04pm

The arrogance and hypocrisy sure stands out

Pompeo has busy bloviating about how other countries are abusing human rights right and left while he should quit lying and look into this country's mirror and seeing how we are doing it.

US authorities are playing the role of China and casting Portland as Hong Kong.

Well that's okay since we financed and supported the Hong Kong protests. Gawd our hubris and arrogance is standing in stark relief isn't it? How long until we hear that Russia and China are behind the protests? Biden is already saying that Russia is once again trying to influence the election and people once again lining up to jump down the rabbit hole. Yee gawd and lil fishes.

More arrogance.

Last week, the U.S. Senate has passed a bill placing sanctions on Chinese individuals and companies with the U.S. Commerce Department revoking Hong Kong's special status as a trading partner, on the ground that Beijing's national security law for Hong Kong undermines Hong Kong's autonomy and freedom.

Um hello you congress cretins who passed the patriot and military commissions act that restricts our freedoms? Which party just reauthorized the patriot act? What will congress do if Barr does ask for permission to use the 2011 NDAA that Obama signed? Hmm? You hypocritic whores!

Yup.

You are aware, of course, that you are witnessing the determined and ongoing attempt by the US to overthrow the Chinese government, right?

I am also seeing folks on the left cheering for regime change in Russia. Boy won't their heads explode when they learn that Russia just voted to allow Putin to be president for 2 more terms? Yes the people were asked if they wanted that and they overwhelming said YES WE DO.

"Federal Agents Invade Portland, Citing Trump’s Executive Order Protecting Statues"

Except the word "statues" is creepy.
Maybe it was supposed to be "statutes?"

No matter.
I think I know where this concept-phrase came from — and I'll bet that US Secretary of State-Terrorism. Mike Pompeo, planted it in Trump's brain. (These DC psychopaths are so obvious and they never bother to clean up after themselves.) It mimics the language that China uses to describe its national security laws in Hong Kong. Perhaps it's one of the unconscious coincidences that are evoked by hypocrisy. US authorities are playing the role of China and casting Portland as Hong Kong.

But who could miss the delusional hysteria and self-serving propaganda spewing from US State Department In reaction to the State Security law that China just enacted for Hong Kong?

When Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997, it was agreed and codified that Hong Kong would keep its domestic legal system. The Hong Kong legal system is a common law one, based on a combination of English common law (developed from local cases and local legislation) now codified as the Basic Laws of Hong Kong, within the the constitutional framework of the People's Republic of China (PRC). China oversees the sovereignty of the Chinese nation. This is known as the principle of ‘one country, two systems'.

When China's sovereignty is challenged or threatened by outside forces anywhere inside China, including Hong Kong, it falls to the Chinese government, the CPC, to provide a security defense. Threats can include foreign military actions, cyber attacks, political infiltration and sedition, election meddling, local coups funded by foreign entities, conspiracy to commit treason, and violations of China's sovereignty by foreign forces.

For more than thirty years, China has been opening itself up to foreign influence and cooperation across many fronts — in business, media, Non-Governmental social agencies, education exchanges, and banking and investment opportunities. Through dialogue, China has accommodated this inflow of international influence, under the global standard that the foreign presence obeys the laws and regulations in China, and they do not attempt to mount an overthrow of China's current government. All American expats, wherever they live, understand this provision. American expats living in Mexico or Canada, for example, quickly learn they must not speak out about the politics or elections in their host country — even on their local message board or at the corner pub. If they are caught , they will be deported and banned.

Hong Kong's Basic Law does not have any provisions to protect China's national sovereignty, but it has a placeholder where China's Security Laws will step in to protect China should its sovereignty be threatened or attacked via Hong Kong. After Trump became President and turned the vicious Neocons loose at the State Department to attack China, China became watchful. When China's trade, military, maritime navigation, and diplomacy were attacked or slandered by the US — all of these were handled with quiet diplomacy by China's national government, the PRC. When the deadly Covid-19 coronavirus, which was developed in US biological warfare labs, was spread in Wuhan in late October 2019, this attack was quickly neutralized by the PRC. When US organizations began brainwashing and funding Hong Kong "Democracy" movements, and Taiwan nationals infiltrated to organize violent protests in Hong Kong — all in an attempt to destabilize Hong Kong and drive a wedge between it and the Chinese government, it was finally time for the PRC to stand up and peacefully contain this sedition.

Last week, the U.S. Senate has passed a bill placing sanctions on Chinese individuals and companies with the U.S. Commerce Department revoking Hong Kong's special status as a trading partner, on the ground that Beijing's national security law for Hong Kong undermines Hong Kong's autonomy and freedom.

But according to America's heritage foundation 2020 rankings, Hong Kong's economy is designated as the second freest in the world. It was THE FREEST a few years ago until the often violent demonstrations last year disrupted business activities and deterred investors.

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This attempt to undermine and overthrow the local government of Hong Kong actually triggered a placeholder provision in Hong Kong's Basic Law. China was mandated to protect its own national sovereignty by protecting Hong Kong from destabilizing threats organized by foreign entities. Think the 2014 overthrow of the Ukrainian government organized by US funded NGOs in Kiev.

You are aware, of course, that you are witnessing the determined and ongoing attempt by the US to overthrow the Chinese government, right?

That's all you need to know, going forward.
Everything else is noise.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 2:23pm

I don't know if you've heard yet

Russia accused of hacking COVID-19 vaccine trials by US

Every major rag in the Five Eyes is covering it. It's silly and sad and embarrassing for the US. No company or nation should profit from a coronavirus vaccine. China is putting their achievements in the public domaine, where they belong. There is no reason for secrecy or competition.

Britain, the United States and Canada say Russia is trying to steal information from researchers seeking a COVID-19 vaccine.

Lots of photos of Putin winking and smiling.

"Putin is hacking our vaccines!"

Submitted by snoopydawg on Sun, 07/19/2020 - 4:56pm

Oh yes I’ve heard about that