The Green Party will not save us
Green Party co-founder Howie Hawkins became the party's presumptive 2020 nominee today.
This event has rarely meant less.
That the GPUS' stance is not too different from the Democratic Party became evident during an online Q&A session held on May 19 where Hawkins said the GP is not in favor of spoiling the election for the Democrats but to see that they win. "In my experience, I’m living in a congressional district where the only time a Democrat beat the Republicans since the Vietnam War…was when a Green was in the race. And of course, we were told we're splitting the vote. But what we did was change the dynamic. And the Democrat, instead of trying to talk like the Republican-light and get votes in the middle, had to deal with us and our positions, and they made them sound a lot better," he said.
Not exactly inspiring.
But it explains why Green registered membership has gone nowhere for decades (246,377 in 2020; 298,701 in 2004).
2020 is a milestone year for party membership.
The latest registration totals reveal that there are now more registered independents than registered Republicans. This is the first time in U.S. history that one of the two major parties has been outnumbered by registered independents. In the past, ever since the beginning of partisan voter registration in the 1900’s decade, each of the two major parties always had more registered members than any other party, and also each major party outnumbered independents.
Both the Democratic and Republican Parties have been shrinking in size.
Dems in 2004: 42.19%; Dems in 2020: 39.66%
Repubs in 2004: 32.79%: Repubs in 2020: 28.87%
While the Greens fail to benefit from this trend, the Libertarians have doubled in size - from 0.27% to 0.53%.
The chart also shows that Libertarian registration has increased by approximately 50,000 since October 2018, even though the party lost its qualified status in 2018 in Alaska, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New Hampshire and Pennsylvania. That caused those states to print new registration forms that deleted the checkbox for the Libertarian Party. Most of those states let the party keep its registrants, but Maine and New Hampshire converted all the registered Libertarians to independents.
No third party in U.S. history has ever had as many registrants as the Libertarian Party does currently.
It's impossible to ignore how the Dems rage over a minor party that isn't growing, or even trying to defeat them, while the Repubs are blase over the growing libertarians.
It's obviously because the libertarians are just honest far-right Republicans, while the Dems have nothing in common with the Left.
Comments
I'm wondering if there
will actually be an election. They are closing down polling stations everywhere, making as hard to vote as possible. Heck, we might have to have the UN intervene. America is on the verge of a complete implosion, much like when the Soviet Union collapsed. Millions died and I'm worried that's going to happen here.
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Exactly
I've seen people on twitter posting that Kentucky has reduced polling places for the election on Tuesday from 3500 to 200 and in Jefferson county 1 polling place for 600000 voters. Which btw has the most black voters of any county in Kentucky, how the fuck is this even happening.
That's
seems to be happening everywhere, but that is so blatant it's absurd.
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Maybe it's half the story
I've heard a lot of states are expanding mail voting because the booths and machines are COVID magnets.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Well not
here in Texas, Governor Abbott is hell bent on killing us.
From the TexasTribune
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
Anybody in Illinois can request a mail ballot.
Can't answer for other states.
I forget all the former rules but I do know that three valid reasons were "serving as election judge or registered poll watcher", "serving in the military" and "will be out of the county (not a misspelling of country, literally being in the next county on business was a reason).
Now you don't have to lie about expecting to be out of town. I did that routinely when I had an employer that would send us to another state on literally a few hours notice.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Seems most of the polling station closures are
in minority neighborhoods. As such...going to the UN was proposed in 1947, with predictable results.
https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/about/news/black-history-at-the-united-nati...
Well done is better than well said-Ben Franklin
I do not disagree
I reckon I was more snarky about the UN, because I know they are feckless organization. Beside everywhere UN soldiers go, also goes the rape and pillage of villages and peoples they are supposed to protect. Many times such atrocities were actually committed by UN soldiers themselves.
Unfortunately it's probably going to take effects of rapid, uncontrolled climate change to bring humanity together, which at this late stage wouldn't really do anything fr the vast majority of people on the planet. The survivors that remain, might have learned their lesson, but, as cynical as I am, I doubt it.
C99, my refuge from an insane world. #ForceTheVote
The Green Party is a permanent minority party.
I don't even think they're on the ballot in half the states. I think the turning point for them was in 2004 when the architects of the pseudo-vote at the Milwaukee convention made David Cobb (instead of Ralph Nader) the Green nominee for President.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2004/08/07/how-david-cobb-became-the-green-...
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
They are on enough ballots to win the Electoral College
And only need 35% in each of those states. The goal of this election isn't to win, it's to get 5% of the national vote. Will the astoturfed "Peoples Party" be any different in the next election cycle?
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
So who is astroturfing the Movement for a People's Party?
And where is your evidence?
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
With respect,
"People's Party" is a terrible name for several reasons. Absent historical/traditional roots, it's too generic. It does avoid the problem of the Green Party that for the average non-engaged voter is associated with environmentalism that is both too narrow and too easy to denigrate. Plus, "People's" has too many negative references and connotations in the minds of the public for it to gain favor.
Possibly more important, Americans tend towards simplicity in self-identification even if they haven't a clue what it means. Thus we get, "I'm a Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green, or Independent." "I'm a People" isn't going to cut it. (Peace and Freedom Party and Working Family Party have the same handicap.) "Liberal Party" is out because the name was appropriated by non-liberals (much like the UK Lib-Dems that are useless Tories). The most descriptive word for what the People's Party is attempting to build is Socialist. It does have historical roots, but never developed much heft because 1) in-fighting and factionalization and 2) elements appropriated by Democrats and Republicans. Impossible to compete when the Democratic Party under FDR became stealth socialists. That time ended over a generation ago, and yet socialists still can't get their act together.
The claim was --
that the Movement for a People's Party is astroturfed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
Okay, so if the Movement for a People's Party is being astroturfed, then who are the hidden sponsors? Let's see some names, and some solid (i.e. not-Alex-Jones type) evidence linking names to movement.
Here's what a Koch-funded "watchdog" organization says about who's behind the Movement for a People's Party:
https://www.influencewatch.org/political-party/movement-for-a-peoples-pa...
Honestly, if the "Influence Watch" page-creators had anything more than Nick Brana and a bunch of grunts on the ground, they'd use it against the Movement for a People's Party. You can see what they think from all of the reactionary rhetorical choices that went into creating this page. Ooh, far left! Evil. It doesn't make sense to say that Nick Brana is astroturfing the Movement for a People's Party -- you can see him in all their nationwide Zoom meetings, and he's close to being nobody.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
the term you're looking for
The term you're looking for is direct evidence.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I like the name personally
with all due respect as well.
https://peoplesparty.org/
It isn't a left nor right name as is Green, Socialist, and so on...it is for all people. Not saying that this effort is the end all nor be all, but it is an effort to build a left-right coalition. For years Ralph Nader has been arguing that we have more in common than not, and there are many left/right areas of agreement....like no war for example.
Here's their next action...
As to platform...
I'm not a UBI fan, I prefer a universal jobs program with a minimum SALARY and I like Hudson's "debt jubilee" idea...but both are rainbows and unicorns. (Perhaps during the pandemic shutdowns UBI is a stop gap measure.)
Anyway a name is just a name. Policy is the real issue IMO.
All the best!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I usually find Nader has
important things to offer. On this one
however I don't see it happening soon. Sounds good, like the old New Deal coalition of northern libs and conservative populist Ds, but that fell apart -- over race. And if anything the DP has doubled down on race and other so-called IdPol groups. I think that is a deal breaker for most on the right today, as yesterday.
Therefore I don't see Left-Right as any viable basis for forming a political party, and the Libertarians kind of pick off many of the available right-leaners. Where it works, less infrequently these days, is at the law-making level where sometimes a few from the other party can be brought over to form a majority on a bill. But less likely today as one chamber in Congress is beholden completely to McConnell and the orders he's given from Donald.
Re Nader, I'm not sure if he's indicated who he will vote for, but despite serious reservations he might be leaning to cast a vote for Biden (as opposed to the GP or similar; he's clearly not voting for Trump). On a recent radio show, he seemed to move smoothly into a discussion of who Biden should pick as his VP, and the name he quickly recommended was Liz Warren, for her good work on consumer and banking issues.
It's a name that I have always preferred
...probably because I refer to the American "People" which is my context when discussing policy.
Also, I got the tee-shirt.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Sounds communist to most working people.
I know that's not a deal breaker here but it is in the larger world. I always favored progressive Party ala T.R. but I see that #BLM has made him an un-person.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
here's what their campaign
has said about 'ballot access' in part:
Yes.
They've been trying to gain ballot access everywhere since 1990. I first joined the Green Party in 1992. In some places it has taken some extraordinary court decisions, like the one through which Carl Romanelli forced the state of Pennsylvania to change its ballot-access rules. But, apparently, not very many states have a Carl Romanelli.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
but i jut twigged as to part
of the reason so many here are touting the Peoples Party; 'the coalition':
it's grown, and now includes Jimmy Dore. pretty funny that chris hedges tried to run as a Green, though. ; )
People are understandably desperate.
See the conclusion of my diary of Sunday, "MoveOn's Panicky Message," in which I said:
Back in the day, the screw-ups in power hid behind an ideology that was paraded front and center. I for one remember those times: the anticommunism of the effort against Vietnam was the big ideology that was pushed upon us, part two being Reagan. At this point the ideology has become neoliberalism, an ideological creature designed to be so far internalized into people's brains that it was beyond the questioning to which "progress" had once been subjected. The political status quo is riding upon that internalization now; notice how Joe Biden's BEST chance at becoming President is hiding in a basement while Donald Trump destroys himself and while, the "progressive" Democrats are coercing us into hoping, Joe Biden will magically transform himself into some pale version of a progressive, the emptier the better, by selecting a Black female VP because everyone knows Black females are progressives. (Cut to photograph of Michelle Obama's hugging George W. Bush.)
From seventy to thirty-five years ago, then, ideology was paraded front and center; now the Powers That Be are riding upon a popularization of ignorance and stupidity. The idea is to find some solid wall, some Teflon, that will repel the individual's need to think about politics. The phenomenon was described in ethnographic fine detail in Nina Eliasoph's book Avoiding Politics, which should be a must-read for anyone getting into activist work. Idiotic normalcy is being pushed upon America as the in-mood, now as in the America of 1921 and of Warren Harding's Presidency; but whereas the America of 1921 was haunted by the specter of American troops being asked to spell a French Army in the midst of a mutiny four years earlier, and only three years earlier in the midst of a horrifying pandemic, the America of today is in the thick of it right now.
It's so obviously not going to work that you want to go up to the political and media classes and ask, "HOW FKN OBTUSE ARE YOU?" Thus, yes, the People's Party, an invention of Nick Braña, someone so obviously low on the political totem pole that he doesn't even have a Wikipedia entry. Why Nick? Everyone else who is paying attention is kept busy fighting the mass-media idiocy in ways which to some extent work, and, in doing so, thinking that at least they are doing better than Bernie Sanders, whose bright idea of combating enforced media idiocy was to go on "The View."
So that's all they've got. Ignorance, stupidity, the Bandwagon Effect. All it takes are people of imagination and will to jump into the vacuum, hopefully with space-suits on, and the scheme should fall apart. Howie Hawkins, Nick Braña, these are not individuals of prior accomplishment. It's what we've got.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
It's not just
"progressives" as you put it so sarcastically and knowingly, but also real progressives
Fact is there is a logical argument to make in terms of voting that, despite his very mixed political past, Biden at least offers some chance of moving things in the prog direction, while there is zero chance of same with authoritarian, ignorant Trump. It's really not a close question.
This is basically the Noam Chomsky position, probably shared with others on the left like Norman Solomon and Barbara Ehrenreich et al, and sounds like it could be Nader's too. Last I checked, no one would doubt their progressive credentials or put cutesy quote marks around progressive in describing them. The CPC also is getting behind Biden, including AOC and The Squad and others in the progressive wing of the progressive caucus.
And of course Bernie Sanders, another non-quote marks progressive who has endorsed Biden.
As it turns out, I am actually at this time slightly to the left of those above on the voting for Biden matter. But I am not similarly situated as an opinion shaper, and so have the luxury of considering alternatives here in CA, including advocating for writing in Tom Hanks.
As for naming a black female as VP, you kind of miss the point. It's not so much on the basis of ideology (who here is assuming all black females are progressive?), but for reasons of voter enthusiasm, particularly in juicing the AA vote, which lagged in the last prez cycle. Also to reward them for their crucial, decisive role in resuscitating the Biden campaign and putting him over the top.
Would be great if there were an obvious 3-fer available -- woman, black, and solid progressive, not one of those "progressives". But alas, there aren't many Barbara Jordans out there to choose from, and all the rest are either merely center-left at best or too neocon or insufficiently seasoned or too old or something not helpful.
Okay so what are these "progressives" responsible for?
besides being part of the current mess we're in?
The fact of the matter is that, if we're doomed, nobody can really boast of accomplishment. The task at hand is to show that we're not doomed, and then and only then can we boast of accomplishment.
America has long needed an alternative to the Democratic Party. Did any of these "progressives" provide, or even support, such an alternative? Most of what they've done is to provide coherent counter-arguments to right-wing talking points, for which I'm grateful. But that alone is not quite in the realm of "I'm going to believe everything they say, or do everything they suggest."
Right now, what we're seeing is Joe Biden MAKING SURE that Donald Trump lives up to his right-wing potential.
Trump walks back Maduro olive branch after Biden challenges his commitment to Venezuelan regime change
The Donald might have been open to peace talks with Maduro, but hey:
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1274910217508196352
If you've got a spare moment, ask Chomsky about this.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
If you think
those progressives/lefties are somehow "responsible" for the "current mess we're in", by fighting the good fight for years against this mess even though not in a position to directly effect change from the top, then I doubt if further discussion on this matter would be productive. But remind me, who is it out there who has done a better more effective job of fighting for and getting progressive results, particularly at the national level, and who therefore, in your thinking, would not be considered responsible for the current mess?
But yes, otherwise I understand your need to paint the Dems/Biden in the worst possible light in order to rationalize your fervent desire to create some true "People's Party" led, I'm sure, by a true Person of the People. Good luck with that, although you might have more success in party creating if you don't harshly engage in ideological purging on the basis of perceived fauxgressivism.
As for Biden's FP stance, as I noted elsewhere, even for most progressive Ds FP has not been their strong suit, and Biden is just a center-left guy currently trying to incorporate some Bernie domestic ideas. Biden and lib-prog Ds have a long way to go. They might be further along by now if the lib-prog leaders in the party were stronger, more courageous on foreign, as Tulsi has been. But with no pressure from the Left, cautious pols will seek the position of safety, which for 30 yrs has been the center-right neocon or neoconlite.
Let's try this again.
As for your idea that your favorite academics (and I say this as someone with an academic position) are "fighting the good fight," my question was:
Still haven't received an answer. Anyway, you seem to think that:
No, that's called a "facade." Biden is not going to be incorporating anything. And Biden is by no stretch of the imagination "center-left." Biden is more to the Right than Barack Obama, who was in fact a conservative, as has been noticed numerous times before.
https://soapboxie.com/us-politics/Read-This-Before-Voting-For-Joe-Biden
He will be the same conservative he's been throughout his 48-year career. And that's going on his record, not on his record of lying when it suits his political purposes. Shall we review that record here?
The Left will vote for Biden anyway. I do not believe in "pressuring Joe Biden" when it comes from the keyboards of those who will be voting for Joe Biden anyway.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
Are you forgetting
something?
Progressive Ralph Nader famously ran for president in 2000 on the Green Party ticket, which 2-party alternative attracted the support of academics like Cornel West, Chomsky and influential left writers like Norman Solomon and Barbara Ehrenreich, among many other notable lefties.
As for the rest, sorry but must conclude my thoughts in this thread with the above. On to other things ...
Ah yes, they endorsed Nader 2000.
Then they gave up.
“The Democrats and Republicans want you to believe they are mortal enemies engaged in a desperate struggle when all the time, they are partners with a power-sharing agreement.” - Richard Moser
Ah! but it's Kentucky that's excoriated
While Blue Coumo in Blue NY that gets a pass on ballot restriction.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
Ralph Nader is no hero.
Mebbe he was 50-60 years ago. Now, he’s just a wrinkled egomaniac living off past glory. Rec’d!!
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Dems went deep into the Washington Generals' playbook.
The guy who was killing it with independents got ganked by the party elite so Creepy Joe could lose to the worst candidate in history not named Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden. Who coulda seen this coming?
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Who could have seen this coming?
I did. Several other c99ers did, too. "Buy-Done: The Quiet Trump!"
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
I had high hopes for Jesse Ventura for a while...
...but the Libertarians have https://verminsupreme2020.com/!
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
The Libertarians were pushing Jesse Ventura in the Green Party
The "Republicans who own a bong" have been trying to take over the Green Party this cycle.
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
Did you hear Ventura on the Jimmy Dore show?
it was revealing, as one might say. There were lots of points where I agreed with him, but many more where it was clear he's no progressive and much closer to libertarian. Even Jimmy's enthusiasm seemed to drain as the interview went on (though worth noticing, he didn't challenge him either. Hmm...)
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Jimmy often fills in for Jessie
...on his RT show.
I think this is Upton Sinclair...
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
I did not know that.
Now it makes sense. I got about halfway though and was wondering why JD was devoting so much time to Ventura and essentially just giving him the mic with no countering.
Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
Libertarians went downhill
big time when the.Cato Institute mob gained control.
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
Yeah, Howie has taken me from
being a Green party voter to not voting in the presidential election at all.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
This thread has taken me from being a regular site reader
To deleting the bookmark from my browser.
" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "
An interesting response.
Why?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Don't do that; NEVER do that
Voting matters; there ARE alternatives.
As I've said before, reality in politics is determined by fiat; I'm familiar with your pessimistic, yet persuasively-argued, interpretation of what elections have become - but to paraphrase Ghandi, you must believe in the system you wish to see in the world. The Religious Right are nothing if not good at politics, and that is because it suits their beliefs - not just the authoritarianism and conformity, but also the - dare I say it? - magic. You must believe. You have to MEAN IT, Harry! Politics and society are make-believe, and by choosing your own beliefs rather than allowing your enemies to choose them for you, you DO make a difference. Call it prayer, call it ceremony, call it Magick in the Crowleyan sense...but speaking for myself, I believe in the democratic process. I think of my grandparents - on one side, military-class 1950s vaguely-Catholic Teutonic-Americans, on the other, bourgeois American-Dream-earning Jews whose own parents all grew up in Eastern Europe. What they had in common? They knew what it meant to be a citizen - not a peasant, not a prole, not "privileged", not livestock, but A GODDAMNED CITIZEN, bound by public duty, and (not but, AND!) entitled to freedom and power within limits and with bountiful potential for expanding those limits. Do you know how that feels? You would let them take that away from you?
Vote third-party. Vote write-in. I am seriously considering Vermin Supreme, whatever faults I may find with the Libertarian Party, because fuck, imagine ME having someone who actually REPRESENTS me! Pencil-in "Mickey Mouse", if you have to; imagine what would happen if enough people actually did (I know, I know, Disney's holdings are bloated enough as is)!
Don't let them break you.
Don't surrender that last inch.
You are an American.
ALWAYS. VOTE.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Writing in is a good idea.
An excellent idea, actually.
As far as my pessimism goes, I'd like to point out that I was more than willing to vote for Jill Stein twice, despite being extremely pessimistic. I'm just not going to vote for somebody who wants to play footsie with either the RNC or the DNC at this point. I'm also not willing to vote for a libertarian because the gulf between my beliefs and theirs is too wide. That leaves no party-promoted individual for me to vote for for president--and I'm afraid I can't muster enough trust in Jesse Ventura to pull the lever for him.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
We ARE undergoing a realignment right now, don't forget
It's entirely possible that the Libertarian Party can and will shift, especially if its numbers balloon. I have my own longstanding reasons for not trusting them, either, but the political lanceboard has changed, and will no doubt continue to do so; I have seen behaviors I never imagined I'd see, which make the attitudes of many libertarians I've known suddenly look far more reasonable (I have, for example, been taught a whole new level of respect for the South Park guys and where they're coming from). I nearly voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 before the ballot introduced me to Gloria La Riva. I can no longer justify not at least giving them a chance to earn my vote...especially if the Green Party's plan for 'realignment' is a whimpering implosion.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Not a snowball's chance in hell
I'd vote Libertarian. Again. I helped a pilot friend run for congress as a Libertarian in TN in 1992 against Marsha Blackburn. Yeah, her. Forgive me my political immaturity at the time but my maturity was light years ahead of the whackos and clowns I found myself associated with. (It was TN after all.) "Everything Is All About Me" Party would be a better description. Ron and Rand Paul have done nothing to change my opinion. These are generally folks who have no more business near the levers of power in government than my cats.
Yes, I do have very strong feelings about the party. Why do you ask? I'm not trying to insult you. I know some very decent people who lean Libertarian. We have intersecting values, but few, and can discuss things. They're far better informed than the average Dem or Rep. Unfortunately, I've found them to be a tiny fraction of Libertarians I've met. From your writing here I think you are one of the good ones. A minority.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
I never said I WAS a Libertarian
I had similar feelings about them for most of my life because of the way it seduced an old family friend into drifting further and further right (he got involved for the sake of drug legalization in the late '80s-early '90s, then fast-forward to 2000: He was the only person I know who actually voted for Pat Buchanan - not confused, elderly, Jewish, or Floridian). I spent years trying to warn people away from it, as well.
What I've seen in the past 6 years, however, has humbled me. I've seen for the first time what those attracted to Libertarianism were running away from. That family friend of ours never stopped trying to be our friend, no matter how far from his Hippie roots he strayed...unlike multiple people my own age who I had considered more than acquaintances (I set a very high bar for "friend", the FaceBook/Pokemon model is anathema to me), yet suddenly decided they despised me after "getting woke". I've seen people who used to be thoughtful, open-minded, and capable of self-criticism become melodramatic, humorless, Newspeak-gurgling gargoyles. I keep thinking about Anton LaVey's warning that Not All Vampires Suck Blood.
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
Good for you, The Liberal Moonbat,
for making yourself clear. Not everyone here has experienced you in context of your contributions and history here. I'm sorry that you have been misunderstood.
We're cool.
I took "We are undergoing a realignment" as including yourself. My misunderstanding. My faith in humanity is fully restored.
"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."
Won't work in Illinois
Writing in a candidate that has not filed a petition invalidates your ballot.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
@The Liberal Moonbat ^^^^^^Hear, hear!!^^^^^
^^^^^^Hear, hear!!^^^^^^
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
not voting?
You could always write "Sean McCullough (Colorado Springs, CO)" in, you know....
He's running as an Anarchist......
/s
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Opa!
Great idea.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I vote no matter what. I was brought up by
parents who looked at being informed (not dumbsh1t) voters as the price paid for democracy. I’ve lived in a political wasteland for most of my life. What I have learned is the azzhole ‘elite’ fears folks like me, and have throughout history. BTW, will be skipping spots on my ballot which does not invalidate it here in FL.
Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.
I voted for Jill Stein in 2016
simply because I could not in all good conscience vote for either Clinton or Trump and she held positions I agreed with.
Now we have two of the biggest liars in all of politics running for President. Neither of them even gets close to representing my values as a voter.
Howie stands for a very close platform to Sanders'. If he is on the ballot in KY, I will vote for him. If not, I will not vote for a President.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Can't you write-in, if all else fails?
That's how I voted for Mike Gravel in the 2008 primary (my first!).
In the Land of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man is declared mentally ill for describing colors.
Yes Virginia, there is a Global Banking Conspiracy!
I don't know if we can write-in in KY.
And now we have no idea how we will vote in Nov. and what the form will look like.
"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin
Not voting vs. voting
To Liberal Moonbat:
In turn, I find your comment very persuasively argued, but it has not convinced me. I look at it far more simply. Not voting is not a stand or even an action of any kind. It is indeed a surrender. I don't vote because I do not find it worth the time, however short or long, to do it.
My reply -- a surrender of what?
My view is that we are far past the point where voting accomplishes anything of significance. To be sure, if you have a narrow social ambition that does not disturb any significant vested interest -- like putting "prayer" in public schools -- you can organize effectively and take over the school board and then use taxpayer money to fight off the ACLU suit.
And, by doing so, you can build up a cohort of previously elected local office holders to move up the ladder to city council and state legislative seats. That is the history of the Religious Right over the last four decades. But as soon as you get past that level, you run into the brick wall of national politics, which is totally corrupt. The votes are not counted accurately. The rules are manipulated shamelessly. And any politician who manages to climb that brick wall will be neutralized one way or another unless he or she pays fealty to the Empire and its project of world domination.
Voting is therefore simply irrelevant.
I do not argue that it is hopeless. The current collapse of our society has utterly doused the fire of optimism in my belly -- it does make revolution even more likely, but it will force revolution before those of us who oppose Forever War can crystalize our own movement. Chaos is coming and nobody can guess how it will all fall out.
Of course, my pessimism about the next 24 months could be just a sour disposition out of control. But even if things are not as bad as I fear, I do not see how voting has any bearing on anything of significance. The Democrats are MORE in favor of Forever War than the Republicans. I do not see how writing in anybody's name has any value or meaning. The people in power do not care whether you vote or for whom you vote.
I appreciate the wisdom on Gandhi:
I do not wish to see the American system of voting in the world to come. So I do not waste my time on it.
Thanks for a clear statement of the opposite point of view.
I cried when I wrote this song. Sue me if I play too long.
I agree with just about everything you said
and especially this.
I cannot vote for either Trump or Biden for any reason. Neither will make my life better and both of them will make lives for people here and abroad worse. People have been voting for the Green Party for how many decades and they still haven’t made much progress in getting on ballots in many states. They are excluded from the debates because both parties don’t want them to be included. If this could be fixed....?
But how dumb is it for a country as big as the USA to let just a few states decide who wins? My vote in Utah has been worthless since I started voting because it always goes to the republican candidate. How is that fair? Same thing with the primary. How many times has it been settled before lots of people have even voted? Biden had been basically given the nomination before half of the country voted because Bernie dropped out. I read an article this morning on common Dreams that said people should still vote for him because he will get more delegates and be better positioned to affect Biden’s policies. Sure he will. He did that last time with Hillary and she still picked Kaine as her VP. This was a big FU to Bernie’s supporters.
Vote for down ballot people? Same results. Republicans win because of the power of the Mormon church on its members. Vote for policies? Did that last time and we voted in what we wanted. The results? The legislature and the Mormons changed them to be pretty useless. The church doesn’t even have to get involved because most of the legislators are Mormons and they get their marching orders from Sunday meetings.
There were problems with running a campaign of Joy while committing a genocide? Who could have guessed?
Harris is unburdened of speaking going forward.
the wiki says
that the league of women voters withdrew its sponsorship of the debates in 1988, and "on October 3 they issued a press release condemning the demands of the major candidates' campaigns. LWV President Nancy Neuman said that the debate format would "perpetrate a fraud on the American voter" and that the organization did not intend to "become an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public'.
i'd thought it was later than '88, and i don't remember the issues, but clearly it's the dems who don't want greens. a year or two ago bruce dixon (RIPower) aaid that the dmes were making demands of vastly more signatures requited in various states.
but yeah, ya don't get into a televised debate.... café denizen juliania said she'd stayed up all night once watching the nader vote...and it never hanged all night. that caused her to suspect that the vote was rigged by diebold machine tampering. it's not an altogether wild theory, i think.
and remember this? 'An Open Letter to the Green Party for 2020', jan, 2020, truthdig?
i agree that your state moots any vote you'd cast, kinda like here for county commissioner.
and amurican voting has been so bastardized that it reminds one of emma goldman's
.
given your title,
may i ask what you mean by two terms, namely 'save US', and (save us) from What'?
i'd never heard of this fellow who'd authored your hit piece on the the US greens, or whatever it's titled, but:
below the piece was one comment:
give his reference to the Q and A session, it seems clear to me that this is the author of whom we was speaking:
evan blake's may 29, 2020: Howie Hawkins and the Green Party: Capitalist politics in the guise of “ecosocialism”
it's quite a hit job, including that he's still quoting hawkins from long ago on assange and russiagate or something.
sadly, their website doesn't still reflect that howie later got religion about it, nor there now a Visions tab, which was very specific list of which sectors to socialize. i remember expressing i'd had my fears that inviting former bernie supporters to join them might cause him and angela to blunt their platform. some of these are both enigmatic and/or fuzzy:
here's their Platform page; i'll expand a few of the headings:
Peace Policies
• Pledge No First Use of Nuclear Weapons
• Unilaterally Disarm to a Minimum Credible Deterrent
• Negotiate with Nuclear Powers to Enact the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear
Weapons
• End the Endless Wars—US Troops Home
• Cut the Military Budget by 75%
• Invest the Savings in a Global Green New Deal
• Use Diplomacy and International Law to Promote Peace, Human Rights, and Democracy
Socialist Economy
• Worker Cooperatives
• Public Ownership of Big Banks and Industries
• Public Monetary Authority
• Democratic Economic Planning
• Production for Use within Ecological Limits
Criminal and Civil Justice
• Monitor and Prosecute White Racist Terrorists
• Federal Investigations of Local Police Misconduct
• Community Control of the Police
• End Mass Incarceration—Treat Drug Abuse as a Health Problem, Not a Criminal Problem
• Legalize Marijuana
• Decriminalize Personal Possession of Hard Drugs
• Drug Treatment on Demand
• Decriminalize Sex Work
• Fight Corporate Crime
• End Warrantless Mass Surveillance
• Pardon Whistle Blowers and Political Prisoners
now i don't know why anyone would run for president of this craptastic nation built on violence and barbarity, nor why they'd believe they're qualified to. but i don't admire that hawkins really is really running on is his eco-socialist green new deal, as if it ain't already too late.
but on this thread, you, cass, and the SEP are sure as hell losin' him some votes. do you actually imagine he and angela believe they might attain the White House? and yeah, he's been phonin' it in, but my stars: angela walker's a Live Wire!
Is he going to play nice with the Democrats, as that quote
from him suggested? Is this another 2004 (which I was part of, by the way, working my ass off for first Dean and then Kerry despite being a Green)? Because I won't be part of anything like that again.
That's my basis for voting or not voting for Howie. Is he saying "Well, sure, we want our own presidential candidate and party, but not if it means the Big Bad Republican might beat the Democrat, because they're too Big and Bad this time for us to risk putting the Democratic presidential bid in peril"? If he is, he can't have my vote. If he isn't, I'll double-check the stuff about Russiagate and Assange and figure out how real I think his change of mind is, and if I think he's reasonably legit, I'll vote for him, just like I voted for Stein in 2012 and 2016.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
first, let me apologize for
not having provide evan blake's wsws hit job; i've corrected it. secondly, i've been preparing food to tithe to others as i've tried to do since barack obomaba's Terror Tuesdays, as per the NY/CIA slimes.
third, blake had never linked to any such Q and A demonstrating what he'd claimed they'd said. did he come to conclusions not in evidence said? i'm agnostic; you decide:
then a rant against green parties internationally.
dunno about hawkins playing with the Dems, nor care much about how you or anyone else votes, doesn't vote, save for some campaign rhetoric being closer to the truth than others.
but thanks for pressing me to look further: hawkins/walker campaign updates, including Free Edward Snowden and All Whistleblowers and Political Prisoners
Jun 5, 2020
including ‘Political Repression Using the 1917 Espionage Act’
After the Wilson administration, prosecutions under the Espionage Act were relatively rare and used only against spies, not political dissidents or whistleblowers, until the Nixon administration unsuccessfully charged Daniel Ellsberg and Anthony Russo for releasing the Pentagon Papers to the media.
The use of the Espionage Act changed radically with the Obama administration and its “war on whistleblowers.” It charged eight whistleblowers under the Espionage Act. The Trump administration has continued with five more Espionage Act cases against four whistleblowers and one journalist and publisher, Julian Assange. These cases are not about espionage and spying. They are about intimidating potential whistleblowers, criminalizing journalism, and rendering the First Amendment right to freedom of the press ineffectual.
As president, I would pardon or drop the pending charges against all 13 of these Obama-Trump era whistleblowers: 13 names.
political prisoner: mumia al-jamal and leonard peltier who will dies in prison, even though the FBI knows he did not kill the fibbies on the pine ridge rez in 1987.
the chris eyres book i'd recently offered to send you tells part of the story, iirc) although my burned out eyes can't even locate in bookshelf now, lol), but our first edition of peter matthiesen's tome narrating the whole story stays here: In the spirit of crazy horse. (the life and railroading Leonard Peltier, iow)
fourth, blake comparing howie and angela to AOC made medo a spit-take when i'd read it! watch NOt what she and ilhan omar tweet: but how they vote! and in aoc's case: who she meets with, as in w/ the coup regime in boliiva.
p.s. on edit: does anyone know if that's rashida tlaib on the far left?
may i ask how many of you
are familiar with mumia and/or leonard peltier?
Mumia & Leonard Peltier have been causes celebrés, like, forever
Even when visiting Honolulu, I remember always seeing Free Mumia and Peltier signs and leaflets at indigenous Hawaiians’ protest events, since at least back in the 1990s.
well, they've both
been in prison for a hella long time, and mumia's trial seems to have been as much of a show trial as peltier's was. no parole? of course not! no commutation by O nor clinton? of course not. i got a letter back from hellary saying why it just wouldn't do for bill to commute his sentence. between the lines it read: 'someone's got to pay for those two fibbies' killings."
i'm glad to hear that in honolulu. i know of very few people who've ever herd of either of them. how funny; this self portrait notes on the right sidebar that its source is: Fuck. Obama’s Denied Clemency to Leonard Peltier | café Babylon...
it may be that angela walker had caught howie up on some of these cases, as well.
While Hawaiians resist having their history treated by the US as
just another case where the “American Indian tribe” (“domestic dependent nation”) legal paradigm applies, Hawaiian sovereignty activists are acutely aware of, and try to stay abreast of, all that goes on in the way of U.S. (and French, etc.) high-handedness and injustice toward indigenous peoples and their attempts to re-assert their right of self-determination.
True. Either Bill Clinton or Obama could have freed them.
Neither Dem president bothered.
Edited to add:
Bill Clinton in particular thought it was more important to pardon Marc Rich, as corrupt an act as anything Trump or Biden have ever been accused of.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=marc+rich+pardon
somehow i missed this
I know about both of them. Horrendous abuse; sociopaths imprisoning people because they can.
When I moved to Philadelphia in 1991, I saw graffiti near my house and other places that said "Free Fred." I was like, "Who's Fred?"
Somebody had to explain to me that "Fred" was Mumia abu Jamal's former name.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
but yoou did see my
longish answer to your Q about hawkins playing nice with Dems, then? it's up to everyone to see if blake had twisted their words to his advantage as an SEP author. do you know if
that's Tlaib w/ooc and the bolivian coup government?
i'd almost dropped in a video in which rapper immortal technique is reading one of mumia's letters from prison. mr. wd has peltier's Prison Writings.
Yes, I did, and I've been mulling over an equally long
response. Sorry; things have been not great this week. Depression's got me on the rocks, and when it does, I'm not very punctual in my responses.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I haven't liked Hawkins since that interview re Assange
In fact I support no one that doesn't support the freedom of Julian Assange but if there is a real change in that direction it changes everything, and fwiw I voted for Dr. Jill Stein in 2012(had enuf of the big Zero) and in 2016.
i voted for
ajamu baracka in 2016: jill stein's Third Choice for her VP. imo, he's The Real Deal. hawkins may just be getting kinda old, by now, i dunno. but i sure do like angela walker.