Open Thread Friday 4-24-2020

A Look at China Part One

Morning. Over the next few weeks I am going to share some of my thoughts and readings on China. It is one of the few places in the world not colonized by a Western power. Our growing antagonism towards China is part of a longer cycle of admiration and disdain for the Chinese culture that has played out for centuries.

The latest noticeable shift from friend to foe with the West is articulated in this interview with John Pilger in 2017 discussing his documentary The Coming War on China on CGTN (China Global Television Network). He began filming in 2015 after initiation of Obama's policy Pivot to Asia. John's concern for future conflict is better explained in the interview than the documentary.

(26.47)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXNO_g4hlKw]

The first half of the The Coming War on China focuses on the disastrous history and current presence of the United State in the Maldives. An island nation in the Pacific used as an example of the debt-trap diplomacy of China by Western nations.

The Coming War on China(1 hr 53 min)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDl9ecICIYg]

________

United States and China are currently in Phase 2 of trade war talks. Trump announced on Dec 31, 2019 he would sign the Phase 1 Agreement at the White House on January 15, 2020.

Politico 1-31-2019

White House trade adviser Peter Navarro, in an interview Tuesday on CNBC, said there were still "a lot" of outstanding issues to tackle in the phase two deal, and probably in a phase three deal as well. That includes "the cyber intrusions into our business networks and the broader problem of espionage," as well as China's state-owned enterprises selling goods at unfairly low prices, he said.

Navarro also noted the phase one deal contains "very interesting" language aimed at reducing China's "horrific" trade in counterfeit goods, which are readily available to consumers over the internet.

"I’m going to be spending a lot of my time in 2020 making sure that when you go on e-commerce platforms like Amazon and Alibaba you don’t get stuck with counterfeits from China," Navarro said.

Peter Navarro has published multiple books and videos on his views of the relationship of China with other nations of the world.

Death by China: How America Lost Its Manufacturing Base directed by Peter Navarro released in 2016. (121 min)

Crouching Tiger: What China's Militarism Means for the World (2015)
Episode 1: Will There Be War With China? (45 min)
Episode 2: The World At the Tip of a Chinese Spear (43 min)
Episode 3: The Wild Card of North Korea (38 min)
Episode 4: The Unsinkable Aircraft Carrier of Taiwan (37 min)
Episode 5: Will There Be War Between China and Japan? (43 min)
Crouching Tiger: John Mearsheimer on Strangling China & the Inevitability of War? (30 min)

________

Last year this interchange occurred between October 19 and December 22 on AsiaTimes website. It again reflects the predisposition of a Western writer on China, but included a rebuttable from a Chinese scholar. You might find it interesting. I was shocked at the core viewpoints of the Western author, David Goldman, aka Spengler, a regular contributor to AsiaTimes. After contemplating the series, I can see the relationship to our foreign policy to ingrained biases.

‘You can never be China’s friend’: Spengler Asia specialist and distinguished columnist David P Goldman is convinced the US and Europe stand a chance against the Red Dragon – but the clock is ticking an interview of David Goldman by Urs Gehriger

You have compared the situation that the US is facing toward China to the siege and conquest of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1258.

The Mongols, by themselves, did not have the capability to penetrate the twelve-foot-thick walls of the city of Baghdad. But they hired a thousand Chinese siege engineers. Within three weeks, the Chinese mercenaries breached the walls, at which point the Mongol horsemen went in and killed the entire population of Baghdad.

Who are today’s Chinese siege engineers who are breaching the American fortress?

Huawei very much is the spearhead, because in the Chinese model of economic expansion and the development of world economic power, broadband is the opener to everything else.

David Goldman could have learned more about China Parts of 'You can never be China's friend' are only partly correct while most other parts are completely wrong rebuttal part one December 5 by Wen Yang

Unlike most Western media critics – who have no sense of history, do not understand what a big country is and like to judge China freely – Goldman understands that “contemporary China is the continuation and development of historical China.” It doesn’t represent a sudden change and a mutation. This is a correct point that he has made.

This is why he pointed out that the biggest misunderstanding of the West about China is to regard China as an evil government that oppresses its good people.

He concluded that “the government and people of China have been shaping each other for 3,000 years.” With this knowledge, he at least could understand the unique and ancient “home-state-empire” conceptual structure of the Chinese people and the fact that there is no such structure in the Western civilization. And of course, in the Western world, there was no similar history in which the government and the people were shaping each other.

More about China that Goldman could have learned By Qin Dynasty times, China was an empire too vast to be understood by western political philosophy rebuttal part two December 8 by Wen Yang

Today, the United States is a superpower that plays the role of “world police.” It has nothing in common with the peaceful and prosperous city Baghdad in the 13th century. Also, China, a developing country working hard for the reunification of the motherland and national rejuvenation, has nothing in common with the Mongolian army that conquered the entire known world at that time.

It remains unclear whether there was any evidence for the “historical fact,” cited by Goldman, that the Mongols had hired thousands of Chinese siege engineers to break through the 12-feet-thick castle wall in Baghdad within three weeks.

Judging by common sense, it was unlikely that the Arabs in the 13th century could distinguish whether the Asians who fought for the Mongols were people from Song Dynasty, Khitan, Western Xia or Khwarazm. People from Asia could not be simply categorized as “Chinese siege engineers.”

In addition, the leaders of the Mongolian army that attacked West Asia at the time were Hulagu Khan, fifth brother of Kublai Khan, and General Kitbuqa Noyan. Their troops went from Central Asia to West Asia and swiftly conquered many cities, like lightning. It remained doubtful whether a team of siege engineers exclusively from China had followed.

David Goldman sees Huawei, China as ‘Yellow Peril’ Neither western-style hegemonic nor Russian-style expansionist, China 'must be' a Jewish commercialist state rebuttal part three December 21 by Wen Yang

After all, according to westerners’ mindsets, any global initiative that does not seek control, does not exploit and pursue self-interest, is incomprehensible.

David Goldman is the same. Even if he knows China better than many others, he still is a western media person and cannot get rid of the narrowness and limitations of western centralism.

Although this interview includes a lot of impressive comments, overall it is basically some sort of self-talk with a western mindset. The duty of understanding and presenting China accurately falls on Chinese scholars.

Can China learn from Jewish history? David Goldman responds to comments by Fudan University's Professor Wen Yang final artical in series December 22 by David Goldman

I am the first to say that the consensus American view of China is terribly distorted, and I have heard equally distorted views from prominent Chinese analysts. This sort of dialogue therefore may be of great benefit, all the more so because the public can listen in and participate.

I cited the participation of Chinese engineers at the Mongol siege of Baghdad in 1258 (reported by all the standard historical sources) not to compare today’s China to the 13th-century Mongols, but to illustrate a far simpler point. Western critics often contend that China lacks the capacity to innovate. I do not believe this is true, but whether it is true or not is entirely irrelevant. Like the Mongols, China today can hire whatever skills it may lack at home.
....
It was America that created the first generation of great technology monopolies. China hopes to leapfrog America and dominate the next generation, and on a global scale.

This surely is not the Yellow Peril of the comic strips, but it is a formidable challenge to American preeminence, and as an American I have urged my compatriots to meet the challenge. I want China to be prosperous, secure and weaker than the United States.

________

Open thread all discussions are welcome.

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I am left with the impression that the mindset of the western oligarchy
is to never share in good fortune. Only domination is considered. I believe this will be their failing. If any multi-polar power sharing memes can be floated in western media circles, that may change some of the indoctrination. Big if.

Thanks

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studentofearth's picture

@QMS system I believe your statement remains true.

mindset of the western oligarchy is to never share in good fortune. Only domination is considered.

The movement of the Western oligarchy across the globe initially required oppressed Europeans to be the foot soldiers to claim land. Migrants to hold the land from original inhabitants and other European colonizers until the the oligarchy class was ready to exploit the land. Oligarchy class is now global and probably the top 0.01 percent of the 1%. Well hidden from view with lots of proxies to deflect anger from the unwashed mobs.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Lookout's picture

is as a resource base for us to exploit, and if the other nation doesn't acquiesce they are bad and must be defeated in some way.

I think we have another paradigm the we (the US) is number one (which justifies our aggression). Yet it was China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela which sent doctors to other countries rather than the US.

One more issue is "socialism" as we experience a second round of red baiting. Let's look at which system worked best in combating COVID. Let's also consider the massive transfer of wealth to the mega-corps which is the brand of modern US socialism.

Other than studying the agriculture and water management systems, I really know very little about the country so I appreciate your focus. I have seen John's documentary, but look forward to watching the recommended interview.

Like the yin and yang there is good and bad in both cultures, but it is our nation which is spreading global war and conflict.

Have a good one and hope all is well on the farm! I hope to finish bushogging my lower field today.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

studentofearth's picture

@Lookout has to be recognized by a majority of the general public before we can have an honest discussion on the concepts of socialism vs capitalism in the United States. There appears to be a growing awareness of the the policy differences between funds provided to different economic classes that was not shown in 2008. Trying to explain the practice as a one time emergency to speed the dispersal of funds as was done in 2008 is not working.

I am setting up the sprinkler system and laying down the irrigation lines this week. Using gravity feed pressure for now. Probably start the pump after this weekend.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

Lysol maker warns against injecting disinfectants after Trump floats coronavirus 'cure.'

“As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route),” the company said in a news release, citing “recent speculation and social media activity.”

Polite of Reckitt Benckiser, manufacturer of Lysol, to cite 'speculation and social media activity' instead of pointing directly at the insanity of Trump.

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@Marie

snorting Lysol and injecting sunlight 'somehow inside' to show us how it is done.
Unfortunately, there are people that buy this BS.
Dangerous clown show.

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studentofearth's picture

@Marie very careful how I phrase speculative ideas. Some people take it as literal advice. I thought my professors were simply exaggerating how obedient some people are when a speaker was wearing a white jacket.

Presidents have a lot of inherent power. Trump needs to learn to be more careful with his words related to his public communication.

Thanks for sharing.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

enhydra lutris's picture

really need to do do, on a serious basis. Well and good, but some things simply leaped out at me and they all have to do with thw US being the culture that lies to itself about democracy, capitalism and fascism.

Our mantra seems to intertwine "democracy" and "market based" capitalist myth as necessarily joined. Yet, we came up with ideas like:

"the cyber intrusions into our business networks and the broader problem of espionage," as well as China's state-owned enterprises selling goods at unfairly low prices,

business to business spying, aka commercial espionage, is not properly the concern of a government, but only of businesses themselves under the mythological model of capitalism, for the government to be concerned in this matter is, according to US mythology, actually a merger of government and business interests, concerns and functions - fascism. The ideologues cannot have it both ways.

"Unfairly low prices"??? A Fair is a place they judge cows and sell corn dogs and cotton candy. The oligarchs asked for this, it is "globalism", so on the capitalist theoretical model, no competition can possibly be unfair, especially not purely price based competition. Of course, if the Chinese enterprises are government owned and controlled then that is arguably fascism, but since our government is business owned and controlled, and hence equally fascist, the ideological model gets hollowed out very quickly. If we can't compete, straight up, on a purely capitalist basis, then maybe we need to dump that mythology. Prices could come down while wages went up, it some changes were made, and everybody knows it. More importantly, concern about foreign producers selling here at "unfair prices" is a clear indication that we must do things entirely differently from the ground up.

China's "horrific" trade in counterfeit goods, which are readily available to consumers over the internet.

Once again the myth is exposed. Counterfeit goods? Whatever happened to caveat emptor and letting the market decide? Again we see that the rhetoric isn't matched by reality and again government is doing businesses' job = fascism. The whole subject area, fwiw could be a huge project and thesis. If fake Pierre Cardin goods are shabbily made, purchasers will suffer for seeking bargain prices and learn better and only buy from preferred outlets. If they are of equal quality, then who gives a shit? Pc&Co gives a shit, that's who. but why should a 2 dollar belt cost 50 bucks just because it has their logo on it anyway? "Somebody else is gulling the populace with our specific brand of spurious illusions of class and prestige" has a very hollow ring to it.

Lastly: Death by China: How America Lost Its Manufacturing Base? How? Voluntarily. "United States Steel is not in the business of making steel, it is in the business of making money". That outlook and ideology sent our mfg. base abroad, that and the race to the bottom. Sure, William Jefferson Reagan Clinton helped, but the US practice has always been that once technology becomes sufficiently advanced and routine, it and any existing productive base will be moved offshore in the quest for greater shareholder and management return, that is the US way of life.

Thanks for the great column and all the sources/resources

be well and have a good one

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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

studentofearth's picture

@enhydra lutris the Western world reveals interesting reflections on our culture. In the study of Chinese culture and the history of their dynasties I learned more about my gaps of knowledge of Western culture than surprising facts about China.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

CB's picture

knowing the history of the relationship between China and the Western powers - especially during the Opium Wars.

Edit: This video is not the one I thought it was. But I think it is even better because it gives us a deeper perspective of the Chinese societal norms/philosophy comparesd to those of the western nations.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6INqNwFF20&list=PLA50AB7N5S7fo34ZzGKfM6...

The US was responsible for approximately 10% of the opium trade to China and it profited immensely.

How Profits From Opium Shaped 19th-Century Boston
...
In a city steeped in history, very few residents understand the powerful legacy of opium money.

Hospitals, Railroads, Schools: What Opium Profits Funded

Thomas Perkins invested in mills in Newton, an iron manufacturing plant in Vermont and what some historians say was the country's first railroad. It ran from the Quincy Quarry into Boston. Another Perkins' nephew, John Murray Forbes, invested his opium profits in steamships, mines and railroads that would eventually cross the country.

Haddad is among a handful of historians exploring the connection between America’s industrial revolution and the profitable opium trade, dominated by merchants from Boston.

"China had a really strong economy in the early part of the 19th century and the Americans were able to tap into that by exchanging tea for opium," he says. "Opium was really a way that America was able to transfer China’s economic power to America’s industrial revolution."

Perkins' ships deposited tremendous wealth in Boston too. Chests of tea, bolts of silk, crates of porcelain and cakes of opium -- which was legal in the U.S. -- were hauled off ships onto giant scales outside Boston’s Custom House. The goods were tallied and taxed in basements and warehouses around Faneuil Hall and Quincy Market. Tax revenue from the trade funded Massachusetts police and fire departments, roads, bridges, courthouses and schools.
...

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studentofearth's picture

@CB In contemporary America the Seckler family in northeastern United States were instrumental in increasing opioid abuse from prescription drugs developed and marketed by Purdue Pharma and created a fortune. Then moved the the products overseas when successful legal action began happening in the United States. Currently the official bad guy is China supply fentanyl and chemical precursors. (part 2 of the linked article in your comment discussing American fortunes in the opioid trade)

Courtwright says he’s been surprised to see another opium epidemic, driven by over-prescribing, emerge in the U.S. — and disturbed because this one is more complicated.

"One thing a morphine addict in 1890 didn’t have was a massive alternative supply of something like heroin," says Courtwright. "Now increasingly that cheap heroin is spiked with cheap and potent synthetics, like fentanyl."

Most of that fentanyl or the ingredients used to make it are produced in China and shipped to the U.S.

Thanks for the input.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

CB's picture

@studentofearth
to arrest fentanyl traffickers. The penalties they get in China are more severe than in the US.


China sentences fentanyl traffickers after US tip about ring

November 7, 2019

XINGTAI, China -- A Chinese court sentenced nine fentanyl traffickers on Thursday in a case that is the culmination of a rare collaboration between Chinese and U.S. law enforcement to crack down on global networks that manufacture and distribute lethal synthetic opioids.

Liu Yong was sentenced to death with a two-year reprieve, while Jiang Juhua and Wang Fengxi were sentenced to life in prison. Six other members of the operation received lesser sentences, ranging from six months to 10 years. Death sentences are almost always commuted to life in prison after the reprieve.
...
Austin Moore, an attaché to China for the U.S. Homeland Security Department, said the Xingtai case was "an important step" showing that Chinese and U.S. investigators are able to collaborate across international borders.

Moore said Chinese police identified more than 50 U.S. residents who tried to buy fentanyl from the Xingtai organization. Those leads prompted over 25 domestic investigations and have already resulted in three major criminal arrests and indictments in New York and Oregon, he said.
...

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I am headed to work for an hour or so.
I have spent the morning with an attorney pal discussing that riveting issue of hearsay, admission of a party opponent, excited utterance being a hearsay exception,and the mandatory statute requiring DNA testing when determining heirship.
Oh, the call from my neighbor and lifelong friend who just lost his wife to cancer a couple of days ago. He seems to be stunned, and the loss hasn't sunk in yet. It will come, and he knows he can call me to talk him down.
I am curious to see who my "beloved" country threatens to kill today.
Hope everyone is well.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

studentofearth's picture

@on the cusp Everyone grieves so differently. You are wise to wait and be ready when you neighbor needs your attention.

Stay healthy and heal that hand.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

@studentofearth attorneys. Now, we both lost our spouses to cancer.
He is very religious. If that helps him, all I can say is good for him.
I sort of walked him through the upcoming transition, and did assure him that one day, he will forget about the months of watching her dwindle to nothing and nobody, and only remember how much he loved sharing his life with her.
We had to discuss his grown, dangerous, drug addled daughter, and I begged him not to allow her onto his property, suggesting they meet soon when the restaurants open, buy her dinner, control every aspect of their meet and greet. He promised he would take that advice.
If he needs anything, all he has to do is call me or my brother.
RIP, Carol.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

lotlizard's picture

@on the cusp  
Alan Paton’s Cry, the Beloved Country, set in South Africa, was required reading at my high school in the early sixties.

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smiley7's picture

Interesting read and thread about China, capital and intellectual property.

Wish more people had an understanding that workers plus earth's resources make the foundation of the pie and if so moved politically could re-arrange the governments and economies to appreciate both; or in other words, let the corporations hold the bag and lose their precious stock value during this pandemic, declare bankruptcy in which the courts give remaining resources to the workers to rebuild the economies. Somewhat like the Marshall plan, but going further.

Simple-minded, yeah, but the thought goes well with morning coffee.

Regards to Oregon, be safe out there.

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studentofearth's picture

@smiley7 Why most of our solutions can only be designed by an expert with the right "credentials".

Have a good one and stay healthy

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

snoopydawg's picture

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

studentofearth's picture

@snoopydawg Your warning on the Beagle sounds has been appreciated. Sally did get startled after dark in January by something wandering in the adjacent field. Definitely more startling with the baying.

The baying did become an issue with one of my Australian Shepards. He thought it was a fun sound to use to encourage me to open the door quicker when they were being sent out for a run. We seriously discussed it was not a sound to be used inside the house.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

snoopydawg's picture

@studentofearth

the inner workings of beagles. No matter how many times you think you have them figured out they do something that surprises you. Did it sound like she got kicked in the ribs? Play hide and seek with her and she will probably make the sound again. How is she with sirens? Fire trucks frequently pass us on our way to the cemetery and she then puts her head out the window and auuuruughs her way up the street and when we turn in and pass the office. People just crack up at her.

Has Sally taken herself out for a walk by herself yet? Charlie has kept her butt parked in the yard for years with one exception, but she decided that she needed to take off again last week. This time she only took off for a few hours. I have gone looking for her so many times and I've only found her once. She was toodling up the road with a smile on her face and not a care in the world. Until she realized it was my car next to her. If she thinks she is in trouble she squints her eyes. Now how can you stay mad at that?

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studentofearth's picture

@snoopydawg I think they have more privileges than she had in her previous life. In her mind to keep the special perks copy the Aussies. These are not working dogs, but glorified house pets and well practiced in the art of manipulation.

Sally is no longer begging for rides in the car. My close fields are dog/coyote proof, as practical, to protect the sheep. She has not had the opportunity for unauthorized explorations beyond the core area around the buildings. So far been lucky she has responded to voice call. Not always a quick return, but enough to break concentration. She tries extremely hard to please.

Sirens are far enough away on the highway she doesn't react. Really enjoy her perky, upbeat attitude and expressive face.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.

snoopydawg's picture

@studentofearth

Especially knowing that she and they have privileges that she didn't have before. They are smart. My first one learned to keep her eyes on me when I was often at the end of the line on our hikes because I was taking pictures. She'd come back down the trial to see what was taking me so long and give me the "keep up' look.
I am still surprised by how well she minds me as do previous beagle owners. I think it's because she took her clues from Abby who minded me until she decided that she was a beagle and didn't have to. Smile

Really enjoy her perky, upbeat attitude and expressive face.

I am so happy that you are enjoying her and seeing how different they are from other dawgs. Not in any way except except for how their minds work. Most dawgs aim to please their owners. Beagles aim to please themselves. I think it's just that their noses are so strong. Did you hear why they have ears like they do? I read it's to help capture scents.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

studentofearth's picture

@UntimelyRippd be careful about not mixing them together or use too soon on a surface wet from another product. Too easy to create chlorine gas.

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Still yourself, deep water can absorb many disturbances with minimal reaction.
--When the opening appears release yourself.