Bernie Sanders is Not A Socialist. Neither Are You.

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 3:04pm

Apparently, socialism already exists in the United States....at least, it does if you listen to Bernie Sanders, or hell, any other left-leaning coward liberal. Exhibit A:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGcsE3pOamQ]

Corporate socialism? Really? Okay, yeah, I'll admit I thought that was a thing too when I was a liberal. But once you look into the history of actual socialist countries without the lens of NATO propaganda, it becomes obvious that most people in the west have no tangible idea what socialism really is.

Instead, we're constantly fed the liberal meme that "roads, schools, police, etc. are socialism" even though the means of production is blatantly laissez-faire capitalist. We're talking mid 19th century to roaring 20's on steroids based on current material conditions. The public sector barely exists at this point, and labor's strength and bargaining power are nonexistent.

Oh, and don't forget about the disclaimer "We don't want to repeat the 'bad' things that happened in socialist countries" line often used to shore up NATO and western far-right Poli-Sci/Demographer bullshit. Again, it helps to understand the actual histories of those countries before howling some idiotic line like "Mao and Stalin killed 100 million people" or whining about food shortages that happened because the imperialists were circling the global wagons to prevent any kind of trade. We're still doing the same to the DPRK (North Korea), Venezuela (Whose economy is 70% private and not socialist), and Cuba (A country that fought US imperialism and won).

Sanders did present an idea to allow working folks to become board members, but that only scratches the surface. Unless said workers own any stock, their words and policy ideas won't have any weight in the boardroom or the Capitalist Politboro of which Sanders is a part.

Between this crap and the boardroom feminism pushed by celebrity idiots, I feel like punching a wall. Seriously. Learn what socialism fuckin' is and how to actually build it, because New Deal velvet glove over the iron fist style reforms and concessions by capitalist scum sure as shit ain't it.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG-O2RdmwNs]

Tags:

Socialism

bernie sanders

Vote

Comments

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 3:55pm

OK. Ball is in your court on socialism and how to build it.

"Learn what socialism fuckin' is and how to actually build it, because New Deal velvet glove over the iron fist style reforms and concessions by capitalist scum sure as shit ain't it."

I'll look forward to reading your definition, and considering your 'how to build it' guidelines.

In the meantime, try to be a bit kinder to people with good intentions and a lifetime of consistency of thought and action.

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:20pm

Socialism or not, the Dems' message is nonsense

@Fishtroller 02 While it is true that our "socialist" roads or schools are public, they are mostly privately constructed and often maintained privately. What's in a name? A rose is a rose is a rose. This is playing parlor semantical games for intellectual titillation. Results are what counts.

Results that should be counted are a higher graduated income tax rate, sensible regulation of small business, etc. Regulation is the key. Here I will not relate the ridiculous federal regulations which priced me out of the ability to evaluate brain-injured veterans, which otherwise I would be willing to undertake.

The best example of moral suicide is Bernard Sanders, whom I once ardently supported. People--all people change if they're alive. But change can either positive or negative. In BS's case it has been for the worse. Yeah, I know about his firebrand far left liberalism or progressivism or democratic socialist past. But like the ghost of Christmas Past, that has gone. Bernie is an ass-kissing slightly left of center hack. He renounced his integrity when he endorsed the Evil Queen.

Making socialism work? Like you say, Aspie, first you have to define it. I ain't gonna get into pseudonomics here. Let the theorists play. We need practical solutions to many problems, which I don't pretend to have. We need to concentrate on what works society as well as economically that actually works--and then improve upon it.

Submitted by mimi on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:46pm

brain injured veterans ...

@Alligator Ed

Here I will not relate the ridiculous federal regulations which priced me out of the ability to evaluate brain-injured veterans, which otherwise I would be willing to undertake.

Brain-injured veterans, does that mean physical injuries of the brain or traumata induced injuries like the so called post traumatic stress syndrome's 'injuries'?

Thanks in advance for a clarification.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 8:11pm

Both

@mimi The incidence of PTSD amongst brain-injured veterans, including those that have sustained blast injuries without actual wounding by bullets, is astounding. I wouldn't be treating those patients but evaluating those vets and recommending treatment as well as commenting upon perceived psychologic difficulties.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 4:59am

Is it contageous?

@Alligator Ed

In your opinion, can you "catch" PTSD from another human with repeated exposure?

Since it is epigenetic and changes gene expression in certain areas of the brain, which can possibly be passed on as biomarkers to offspring, I'm wondering if practitioners can be biologically changed after working with PTSD patients. There have been stories....

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:31pm

My father was born into a family of 11 children.

@Alligator Ed

His father was a steam shovel operator and his mother dealt in "yard goods" (material that she bought in New York City and sold locally). My father and his three brothers served in the war and came out with the GI Bill in their pockets. My father graduate from Union College with a degree in engineering, two brothers worked in government and the other became a chemist. They all did well enough to send all their children to college.

Now THAT is a concrete example of a New Deal era policy that not only helped them, but helped lift up and sustain the middle class. Today's Democrats would have sabotaged FDR. I'll have nothing to do with them.

Yes, all of us are entangled in the system called capitalism. Got a way out? Let me know.

I too was VERY upset when Bernie fell in line with her majesty. However, I'd take his poll numbers over hers any day and while he'll be remembered for his life long attempts to get this country on a more positive track, she will be remembered as being a liar.

I get everything you are saying and have felt that way at times. But I have to say that this essay did nothing but highlight clever cynicism and personal degrading of a man who with all his flaws has been trying .

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:52pm

And why do you think FDR implemented The New Deal?

@Fishtroller 02 It was either that or face a full on revolt from labor. And labor had some strength back then. And don't forget they had the Soviet Union to compete with. They literally had no choice but to offer some concessions in order to maintain the Empire. Now? Pfft. There's nothing to challenge the pigs, and they know it.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by Azazello on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 7:44pm

" ... they had the Soviet Union to compete with ..." ?

@The Aspie Corner
Compete with the Soviet Union in the 1930s.
Compete with them about what, who has more deaths from famine, I mean, "food shortages" ?
Where are you getting this shit ?
Again, I urge you, read some history, some real history.
Jimmy Dore don't count.

—

We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Submitted by earthling1 on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 2:43pm

The Bolshevic revolution was in 1917

@Azazello
which brought communism to Russia, which most capitalist countries feared.

—

Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.

Submitted by Azazello on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 4:13pm

Initially yes, but not for long,

@earthling1
and certainly not in the 1930s, when the New Deal was passed.
By then socialism in one country was Soviet policy and the Comintern was de-emphasized. Not only that but by then the collectivization famines of '32-'33 were widely known. Competition with the Soviet Union had nothing to do with FDR passing the New Deal.

—

We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 10:19am

This site helps answer some of your questions.

@The Aspie Corner

https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-were-main-goals-franklin-d-roo...

As for our relations with the USSR at that time, I don't see anything that remotely suggests competition with them.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1921-1936/ussr

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 5:13am

One of the 2020 candidates offers a way out.

@Fishtroller 02

Yes, all of us are entangled in the system called capitalism. Got a way out? Let me know.

Andrew Yang has a plan to allow individuals to drop out of the extremes of capitalism and be funded to pursue personal ambitions on a different scale. His plan also boosts the yearly GDP significantly, and lifts the working poor and elderly out of poverty. The social science and economics behind it has a large and prestigious following in the US. Sorry, I don't have a link. He'll be in the debates.

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 9:57am

Thanks for the information... I'll keep an eye on Yang.

@Pluto's Republic

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by dkmich on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 11:07am

Yang's universal basic income plan it not in addition to

@Fishtroller 02

that I know of. It is in lieu of unemployment, food stamps, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran's benefits, et al. He can stick his lousy $1,000/month and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

On the right, UBI is defended as a replacement for an inefficient welfare state. ... He expects UBI would replace many safety net programs and free up some additional funds. Stern also proposes changes to future Social Security contributions and a non-employer based health care system.May 24, 2018

I am sick to death of entitled millionaires telling average Joe's how to do everything "right". If people like Yang, Gates, and Bezos paid their fair share of taxes, they wouldn't have all this money to buy influence into things they know absolutely nothing about. If I hear one more time, "we need a businessman to run this country like a business", I am going to sock them.

—

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 12:11pm

We are so far beyond the possibility

@dkmich

....of any sort of change in the US that is constructively beneficial to the peasant class — before we crash and burn — that it is not worth even 10 seconds of contemplation.

Besides, Americans are rife with an epigenetic neurological disorder — a form or PTSD created by a lifetime of political betrayal, breathtaking injustice, and malicious social sabotage. It acts like an auto-immune psychosis that threatens, "If you don't destroy us, we'll destroy ourselves."

We can quietly build individual utopias, but communal action is strictly forbidden. The doors to a self-directed future are snapping shut with blinding speed. Anyone leaving should get out while they can.

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 12:28pm

Yang wants to give $1000 a month to REPLACE

@dkmich

all of the other systems of support (that we paid for by the way). You gotta be kidding!

If this is true, Yang gets Yanked in my view.

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 2:49pm

andrew yang linkie

@Pluto's Republic

Andrew Yang has a plan to allow individuals to drop out of the extremes of capitalism and be funded to pursue personal ambitions on a different scale. His plan also boosts the yearly GDP significantly, and lifts the working poor and elderly out of poverty. The social science and economics behind it has a large and prestigious following in the US. Sorry, I don't have a link.

Andrew Yang 2020

n.b.: When I entered "Andrew" into DuckDuckGo, "Andrew Yang" was the very first thing to come up. Seems it isn't just c99ers who are curious about him and his ideas.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 7:36pm

the ghost of Christmas Past

@Alligator Ed

But like the ghost of Christmas Past, that has gone. Bernie is an ass-kissing slightly left of center hack. He renounced his integrity when he endorsed the Evil Queen.

Actually, we don't know that for a solid fact. In a USA which has done what it has done to Julian Assange, the jury's still out on foul play. Especially where Her Heinous is involved.

Making socialism work? Like you say, Aspie, first you have to define it. I ain't gonna get into pseudonomics here. Let the theorists play.

The typical problem with certain Marxist-Leninists: off in their ivory towers with the Byzantine complexities of their theory books, while down here on the streets real humans are oppressed, suffering and dying.

It's well worth noting that almost all of my objections to Leninism were foreseen by Rosa Luxemburg herself. Money quote from the linked article:

Friends smuggled out and illegally published her articles. Among them was The Russian Revolution, criticising the Bolsheviks, presciently warning of their dictatorship. Nonetheless, she continued to call for a "dictatorship of the proletariat", albeit not of the one party Bolshevik model. In that context, she wrote the words "Freiheit ist immer die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" ("Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently") and continues in the same chapter: "The public life of countries with limited freedom is so poverty-stricken, so miserable, so rigid, so unfruitful, precisely because, through the exclusion of democracy, it cuts off the living sources of all spiritual riches and progress"

source cited by Wikipedia article

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 8:19pm

I iupvoted your comment but disagree with the following

@thanatokephaloides

Actually, we don't know that for a solid fact. In a USA which has done what it has done to Julian Assange, the jury's still out on foul play. Especially where Her Heinous is involved.

There is no doubt about foul play? Really? What about the sutured laceration on Bernie's right temple during the 2016 DNC convention (coronation of the Evil Queen). Not attacking her on the fix, proven by Wikileaks and Donna Brazile, shows cowardice. Whatever courage BS had before it has disappeared along with some of his hair.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 3:09pm

foul play

@Alligator Ed

There is no doubt about foul play? Really? What about the sutured laceration on Bernie's right temple during the 2016 DNC convention (coronation of the Evil Queen).

You have me exactly out-of-phase. We know there were "dirty deeds done to Bernie" (h/t AC-DC) around the ~~Coronation~~ Convention. What "the jury's still out" on is whether there's still skulduggery afoot aimed at Bernie.

Not attacking her on the fix, proven by Wikileaks and Donna Brazile, shows cowardice. Whatever courage BS had before it has disappeared along with some of his hair.

Or he's just smart enough to not want to be "suicided" like some other folks who opposed Her Heinous.

Now I'm not suggesting who you should, and should not, trust. That's up to you, of course. I just really, really don't trust Her Heinous, that's all!

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 6:21pm

Putting the case for Bernie that way is reasonable

@thanatokephaloides And it may even be true.

Thanks for the alternate view.

Submitted by Azazello on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:16pm

I'm thinking that you're the one

who needs to "look into the history of actual socialist countries".
Maybe forget about YouTube for awhile and read some books.
Here, I'll give you one: Russia in the Shadows, H.G.Wells, 1920
Note that NATO had not yet been founded in 1920.
This is from Chapter 3.

But Marx is for the Marxists merely an image and a symbol, and it is with the Marxist and not with Marx that we are now dealing. Few Marxists have read much of Das Kapital. The Marxist is very much the same sort of person in all modern communities, and I will confess that by my temperament and circumstances I have the very warmest sympathy for him. He adopts Marx as his prophet simply because he believes that Marx wrote of the class war, an implacable war of the employed against the employer, and that he prophesied a triumph for the employed person, a dictatorship of the world by the leaders of these liberated employed persons (dictatorship of the proletariat), and a Communist millennium arising out of that dictatorship. Now this doctrine and this prophecy have appealed in every country with extraordinary power to young persons, and particularly to young men of energy and imagination who have found themselves at the outset of life imperfectly educated, ill-equipped, and caught into hopeless wages slavery in our existing economic system. They realise in their own persons the social injustice, the stupid negligence, the colossal incivility of our system; they realise that they are insulted and sacrificed by it; and they devote themselves to break it and emancipate themselves from it. No insidious propaganda is needed to make such rebels; it is the faults of a system that half-educates and then enslaves them which have created the Communist movement wherever industrialism has developed. There would have been Marxists if Marx had never lived. When I was a boy of fourteen I was a complete Marxist, long before I had heard the name of Marx. I had been cut off abruptly from education, caught in a detestable shop, and I was being broken in to a life of mean and dreary toil. I was worked too hard and for such long hours that all thoughts of self-improvement seemed hopeless. I would have set fire to that place if I had not been convinced it was over-insured.
.....
It is that indignation of youth and energy, thwarted and misused, it is that and no mere economic theorising, which is the living and linking inspiration of the Marxist movement throughout the world. It is not that Marx was profoundly wise, but that our economic system has been stupid, selfish, wasteful, and anarchistic. The Communistic organisation has provided for this angry recalcitrance certain shibboleths and passwords; "Workers of the World unite," and so forth. It has suggested to them an idea of a great conspiracy against human happiness concocted by a mysterious body of wicked men called capitalists. For in this mentally enfeebled world in which we live to-day conspiracy mania on one side finds its echo on the other, and it is hard to persuade a Marxist that capitalists are in their totality no more than a scrambling disorder of mean-spirited and short-sighted men. And the Communist propaganda has knitted all these angry and disinherited spirits together into a world-wide organisation of revolt—and hope—formless though that hope proves to be on examination. It has chosen Marx for its prophet and red for its colour....

You're welcome.

—

We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 6:35am

I have been reading. I've read many books, actually.

@Azazello @Azazello How about this one? Or this one? Or this one?

Just because I link a lot of youtube videos doesn't mean I don't read. I read plenty. And quoting H.G. Wells? Really? You can do better than that.

who needs to "look into the history of actual socialist countries". Maybe forget about YouTube for awhile and read some books. Here, I'll give you one: Russia in the Shadows, H.G.Wells, 1920 Note that NATO had not yet been founded in 1920. This is from Chapter 3. But Marx is for the Marxists merely an image and a symbol, and it is with the Marxist and not with Marx that we are now dealing. Few Marxists have read much of Das Kapital. The Marxist is very much the same sort of person in all modern communities, and I will confess that by my temperament and circumstances I have the very warmest sympathy for him. He adopts Marx as his prophet simply because he believes that Marx wrote of the class war, an implacable war of the employed against the employer, and that he prophesied a triumph for the employed person, a dictatorship of the world by the leaders of these liberated employed persons (dictatorship of the proletariat), and a Communist millennium arising out of that dictatorship. Now this doctrine and this prophecy have appealed in every country with extraordinary power to young persons, and particularly to young men of energy and imagination who have found themselves at the outset of life imperfectly educated, ill-equipped, and caught into hopeless wages slavery in our existing economic system. They realise in their own persons the social injustice, the stupid negligence, the colossal incivility of our system; they realise that they are insulted and sacrificed by it; and they devote themselves to break it and emancipate themselves from it. No insidious propaganda is needed to make such rebels; it is the faults of a system that half-educates and then enslaves them which have created the Communist movement wherever industrialism has developed. There would have been Marxists if Marx had never lived. When I was a boy of fourteen I was a complete Marxist, long before I had heard the name of Marx. I had been cut off abruptly from education, caught in a detestable shop, and I was being broken in to a life of mean and dreary toil. I was worked too hard and for such long hours that all thoughts of self-improvement seemed hopeless. I would have set fire to that place if I had not been convinced it was over-insured. ..... It is that indignation of youth and energy, thwarted and misused, it is that and no mere economic theorising, which is the living and linking inspiration of the Marxist movement throughout the world. It is not that Marx was profoundly wise, but that our economic system has been stupid, selfish, wasteful, and anarchistic. The Communistic organisation has provided for this angry recalcitrance certain shibboleths and passwords; "Workers of the World unite," and so forth. It has suggested to them an idea of a great conspiracy against human happiness concocted by a mysterious body of wicked men called capitalists. For in this mentally enfeebled world in which we live to-day conspiracy mania on one side finds its echo on the other, and it is hard to persuade a Marxist that capitalists are in their totality no more than a scrambling disorder of mean-spirited and short-sighted men. And the Communist propaganda has knitted all these angry and disinherited spirits together into a world-wide organisation of revolt—and hope—formless though that hope proves to be on examination. It has chosen Marx for its prophet and red for its colour.... You're welcome.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by eyo on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 6:35am

Your links go to Bezos "book" store, WTF? lol

@The Aspie Corner @The Aspie Corner thanks that made me laugh out loud, ironically. Bezos shitty capitalist rip-off rental companies are all blocked from here, same with GOOG, FB, TWIT, and all the other idiot boxes built for the youth to consume the planet to death. Bernie made his money selling books on Jeff Bezos' Amazon platform, that's a fuct. fucked fact

Did you guys get the news when Bernie mouthed off about $15 per hour AMZ warehouse wages, Bezos "caved" by cutting AssWhole Foods workers from full-time to part-time. That's the system. fuct

I want to love Bernie, but he is contributing to the problems, he is not helping to solve them, just eternally talking about them. Maybe if he stopped name-calling, or trying to define words to the nth degree, maybe then the sheeple will mass move in his positive directions. outlook not so good

My gosh, did no one notice he gave the "socialism speech" at George Washington University? A private school with something like $50k tuition? In the heart of Washington DC? Where the K street offspring learn to steal from the idiots of civil society? Yeah, that GWU, mkay?

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more. Let us try again one more time."

Anyone here look at the FEC reports? Both Sanders and Gabbard campaigns are paying NGP VAN, INC. thousands of dollars per month, to feed the DNC data monster. There's the unity right there, Sanders democratic socialism looks, walks, and stinks like corporate kabuki to me. "I'm not going to apologize for writing a good book." says every rich asshole who talks about hope and change from their seat in the big club.

Our Revolution is a 501c4 corporation, a.k.a. a dark money operation. Why? Rich assholes think social good can't be transparent, not wrapped up in some opaque tangle of legal documents, that's what I think. Why? I don't know.

PEACE

Edited: to clarify 'warehouse wages', and remove useless apostrophe.

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 6:37am

Yes, I know Bezos deserves to be shot.

@eyo I was linking to books there for information because people think I don't read. I'll link from Good Reads instead. That being said, you're buying from guys like Bezos even when you think you aren't. Name one ethical good under capitalism.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by eyo on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 7:39am

I don't think anyone deserves to be shot

@The Aspie Corner 'cause I'm not a violent revolutionary, a useless appendage to the real head choppers in yellow vest or whatever. I'd rather be a non-violent disobedient bitch getting all up in the gears and stuff. One time I stood on a steep dirt road to stop a logging truck from getting to the ancient forest. It worked, nobody got hurt except the log liquidators and the greedy sheep who follow them everywhere. fuck those guys I'm too old now. disabled

I did try to block AWZ, but then the Internets broke in such a bigly way it was disgusting, no content was delivered. CDNs are more shite I don't like, harshing my freedom buzz. So what Edward Bernays great grand nephew (or some relation) started Netflix and other props, nothing matters anymore. despairing deadness

There is no online purchase that does not further feed Bezos' fat face, that's another fuct. The pentagon owns his ass, he is a dot mil tool like MicroSoft Gates and all the pimple faced billionaires fresh outta California's decrepit sewer holes. I live in a functionally backward town in the middle of a deep blue swamp, the middle class has abandoned the lower class completely. There is no one left to speak for me. wah

Oh well, have a nice day Aspie. Your good rants are like an outlet, saying things I would not think of saying out loud. thanks

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 3:17pm

why?

@eyo

Our Revolution is a 501c4 corporation, a.k.a. a dark money operation. Why? Rich assholes think social good can't be transparent, not wrapped up in some opaque tangle of legal documents, that's what I think. Why? I don't know.

Why?

Taxes, amice. Taxes.

I'd call the American tax system Byzantine, but the former Eastern Roman Empire doesn't deserve that.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:29pm

Ideology must be tempered with pragmatism

@Azazello If that duopoly is severed, either one will fail its own. The sense of direction is what necessitates ideology. Where are we going? This requires a general road map. But getting to the goal is never straight and usually not rapid. This where empiricism enters. To my knowledge, no pure ideology our pure technocratic empiricism has ever succeeded in long term. Let me know if you are aware of such a unipolar solution which divorces theory from practicality which has succeeded. Ideology's place is to set a general direction and hopefully an ultimate precise arrival . But between start and finish is where the difficulty lies. Changing societies must avoid the the temptation to careen out of control whenever embarking on what seems to be an actualizing straightaway--just as much as it is folly to race you car along at maximum speed starting on a straight, unobstructed path before coming to the inevitable bend in the road. Speed limits are a good idea.

who needs to "look into the history of actual socialist countries". Maybe forget about YouTube for awhile and read some books. Here, I'll give you one: Russia in the Shadows, H.G.Wells, 1920 Note that NATO had not yet been founded in 1920. This is from Chapter 3. But Marx is for the Marxists merely an image and a symbol, and it is with the Marxist and not with Marx that we are now dealing. Few Marxists have read much of Das Kapital. The Marxist is very much the same sort of person in all modern communities, and I will confess that by my temperament and circumstances I have the very warmest sympathy for him. He adopts Marx as his prophet simply because he believes that Marx wrote of the class war, an implacable war of the employed against the employer, and that he prophesied a triumph for the employed person, a dictatorship of the world by the leaders of these liberated employed persons (dictatorship of the proletariat), and a Communist millennium arising out of that dictatorship. Now this doctrine and this prophecy have appealed in every country with extraordinary power to young persons, and particularly to young men of energy and imagination who have found themselves at the outset of life imperfectly educated, ill-equipped, and caught into hopeless wages slavery in our existing economic system. They realise in their own persons the social injustice, the stupid negligence, the colossal incivility of our system; they realise that they are insulted and sacrificed by it; and they devote themselves to break it and emancipate themselves from it. No insidious propaganda is needed to make such rebels; it is the faults of a system that half-educates and then enslaves them which have created the Communist movement wherever industrialism has developed. There would have been Marxists if Marx had never lived. When I was a boy of fourteen I was a complete Marxist, long before I had heard the name of Marx. I had been cut off abruptly from education, caught in a detestable shop, and I was being broken in to a life of mean and dreary toil. I was worked too hard and for such long hours that all thoughts of self-improvement seemed hopeless. I would have set fire to that place if I had not been convinced it was over-insured. ..... It is that indignation of youth and energy, thwarted and misused, it is that and no mere economic theorising, which is the living and linking inspiration of the Marxist movement throughout the world. It is not that Marx was profoundly wise, but that our economic system has been stupid, selfish, wasteful, and anarchistic. The Communistic organisation has provided for this angry recalcitrance certain shibboleths and passwords; "Workers of the World unite," and so forth. It has suggested to them an idea of a great conspiracy against human happiness concocted by a mysterious body of wicked men called capitalists. For in this mentally enfeebled world in which we live to-day conspiracy mania on one side finds its echo on the other, and it is hard to persuade a Marxist that capitalists are in their totality no more than a scrambling disorder of mean-spirited and short-sighted men. And the Communist propaganda has knitted all these angry and disinherited spirits together into a world-wide organisation of revolt—and hope—formless though that hope proves to be on examination. It has chosen Marx for its prophet and red for its colour.... You're welcome.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 7:45pm

speed limits

@Alligator Ed

Changing societies must avoid the the temptation to careen out of control whenever embarking on what seems to be an actualizing straightaway--just as much as it is folly to race you car along at maximum speed starting on a straight, unobstructed path before coming to the inevitable bend in the road. Speed limits are a good idea.

299,792,458 meters per second. It's not just a good idea; it's the law.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 8:20pm

Thanks

@thanatokephaloides I'll have to get my speedometer adjusted.

Submitted by Pluto's Republic on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 11:22am

What a marvelous passage.

@Azazello

In fact, so many doors in my mind suddenly flew open, that I've been too overwhelmed to make a comment. That sometimes happens... like never..

I saw the big picture.

who needs to "look into the history of actual socialist countries". Maybe forget about YouTube for awhile and read some books. Here, I'll give you one: Russia in the Shadows, H.G.Wells, 1920 Note that NATO had not yet been founded in 1920. This is from Chapter 3. But Marx is for the Marxists merely an image and a symbol, and it is with the Marxist and not with Marx that we are now dealing. Few Marxists have read much of Das Kapital. The Marxist is very much the same sort of person in all modern communities, and I will confess that by my temperament and circumstances I have the very warmest sympathy for him. He adopts Marx as his prophet simply because he believes that Marx wrote of the class war, an implacable war of the employed against the employer, and that he prophesied a triumph for the employed person, a dictatorship of the world by the leaders of these liberated employed persons (dictatorship of the proletariat), and a Communist millennium arising out of that dictatorship. Now this doctrine and this prophecy have appealed in every country with extraordinary power to young persons, and particularly to young men of energy and imagination who have found themselves at the outset of life imperfectly educated, ill-equipped, and caught into hopeless wages slavery in our existing economic system. They realise in their own persons the social injustice, the stupid negligence, the colossal incivility of our system; they realise that they are insulted and sacrificed by it; and they devote themselves to break it and emancipate themselves from it. No insidious propaganda is needed to make such rebels; it is the faults of a system that half-educates and then enslaves them which have created the Communist movement wherever industrialism has developed. There would have been Marxists if Marx had never lived. When I was a boy of fourteen I was a complete Marxist, long before I had heard the name of Marx. I had been cut off abruptly from education, caught in a detestable shop, and I was being broken in to a life of mean and dreary toil. I was worked too hard and for such long hours that all thoughts of self-improvement seemed hopeless. I would have set fire to that place if I had not been convinced it was over-insured. ..... It is that indignation of youth and energy, thwarted and misused, it is that and no mere economic theorising, which is the living and linking inspiration of the Marxist movement throughout the world. It is not that Marx was profoundly wise, but that our economic system has been stupid, selfish, wasteful, and anarchistic. The Communistic organisation has provided for this angry recalcitrance certain shibboleths and passwords; "Workers of the World unite," and so forth. It has suggested to them an idea of a great conspiracy against human happiness concocted by a mysterious body of wicked men called capitalists. For in this mentally enfeebled world in which we live to-day conspiracy mania on one side finds its echo on the other, and it is hard to persuade a Marxist that capitalists are in their totality no more than a scrambling disorder of mean-spirited and short-sighted men. And the Communist propaganda has knitted all these angry and disinherited spirits together into a world-wide organisation of revolt—and hope—formless though that hope proves to be on examination. It has chosen Marx for its prophet and red for its colour.... You're welcome.

Submitted by Not Henry Kissinger on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:18pm

'Real Socialism'

is an old canard typically used by Communist apparatchiks or agent provocateurs.

The first provocative attack is usually on the line and leadership of the Party. Agents within the Party will attempt to slander the organization and belittle its ability to carry out its revolutionary tasks and win mass support. Or these agents will directly undermine the work of the Party by failing to carry out their assigned tasks, by misrepresenting and distorting the Party’s political line, by creating factions within the Party and encouraging in-fighting.

Which one are you?

—

The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:32pm

Ah yes, I forgot.

@Not Henry Kissinger @Not Henry Kissinger Here in Capitalist America, Socialism simply refers to when the government does anything at all, even a government agent dropping a duke in the John is Socialist. And let's not forget people who, according to pathetic far-right jackoffs just don't feel like workin', god bless 'em! /s

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 3:32pm

fundie

@Not Henry Kissinger

'Real Socialism' is an old canard typically used by Communist apparatchiks or agent provocateurs.

Which one are you?

Neither. Aspie's just a Leninist-Stalinist fundamentalist. Like all other such fundies, he thinks that anything not totally conforming to the methods used in the former USSR can't be socialism at all. This is an exact parallel to religious fundamentalism, wherein anyone not in complete conformance with the fundie's ideology is to be either converted or treated as an adversary, with those in the 90%+ conformance range often treated the worst of all. ("Die You Gravy-Sucking Heretic!")

The idea that there are (and were) forms of socialism owing nothing whatsoever to Marx causes these souls considerable grief......

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 5:41pm

Nah, I'm just tired of watching SuckDems

@thanatokephaloides cave to fascists every single time on every. Single. Issue. It's all they know, even when they have the power, will they do anything to benefit anyone other than their capitalist owners? No. The SuckDems will simply cop out to more god damned liberal gradualism.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 7:13pm

limousine liberal milquetoast gradualism

@The Aspie Corner

The SuckDems will simply cop out to more god damned liberal gradualism.

No dispute there. I've spoken against limousine liberal milquetoast gradualism often.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by mimi on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 5:40pm

The image of Bernie killing Rosa Luxemburg

is a proof for cognitive dissonance of the person who photoshopped it together?
I refer you to Dr. Alligator for his excellent knowledge in that area.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 7:51pm

Rosa Luxemburg and Bernie Sanders

@mimi

..... were never simultaneously alive. In fact, a couple of babies born at the moment of Rosa Luxemburg's death in 1919 would be in ideal child-bearing and child-rearing age late in 1941 when Bernie Sanders was born.

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by mimi on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 1:01am

I assumed folks knew that ... /nt

@thanatokephaloides

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by thanatokephaloides on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 3:33pm

I looked it up just to be sure. :-) /nt

@mimi

—

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Submitted by mimi on Sat, 06/15/2019 - 5:53am

ha. I lived in Berlin as a student not far from where

@thanatokephaloides
she was dumped in the "Landwehr Canal".
99 years since Rosa Luxemburg was murdered and dumped in a Berlin canal.
So, somewhat I was aware when that was ... and how old she was back then.

Nothing for Ungood.

—

https://www.euronews.com/live

Submitted by Strife Delivery on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:05pm

If we imagine capitalism and

If we imagine capitalism and socialism as say trees, we can perhaps identify the root system of each and then how things develop upward into its network of branches.

The easiest and most basic distinction we can start with between capitalism and socialism is this: Who owns the means of production (the factory, the building, the machines needed, etc.)?

If it is owned by a private person (boss, investor, etc.) we have capitalism.
If it is owned by the workers themselves (cook, dishwasher, server, janitor in the case of a restaurant) we have socialism.

We could dive further into the concepts of capital, profit, wage labor, contradictions, etc.; however, this is at its root the easiest distinction to make.

So, from the trunk of capitalism, we have many branching ideologies that still exist in said framework: social democracy (Nordic model which Sanders talks about), neoliberalism, fascism, "regulated capitalism", libertarianism, etc.

From the trunk of socialism, you get the branching ideologies of things like: Marxism, Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, Trotsykism, etc.

So far here we see that the government providing services does not a socialist make.
Police and firemen aren't socialist; those are government programs.
Roads aren't socialist; those are government programs.

In the end, who has power -- capital or workers? Regulating capital still means that capital is in power. Regulating Wall Street, the banks, MIC still means that those entities are still in power over us.

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:56pm

I wrote an essay about exactly this not long ago.

@Strife Delivery

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by Big Al on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:29pm

In the sense that socialism is

the transfer of power from the capitalist class to the working class, Sanders, AOC, and all those calling these people "socialists" are hurting the cause so to speak. They are pretending that to pursue what they're selling is the answer when in fact it will only lead to crumbs for the working class and allow the capitalist PIGS free reign to continue their exploitation, further cementing the death of this planet.
What Sanders is selling is the democratic party, that's his only fucking goal, to beat Trump and the republicans. The democratic party is and has always been a capitalist Wall Street imperialist war party and that won't change even if Sanders gets the nomination.

Submitted by The Aspie Corner on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 6:46pm

Hence Bernie killing Rosa.

@Big Al And one of the lines of my sig.

—

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

Submitted by Snode on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 8:02pm

Isn't government

Of the people, by the people, for the people socialism at it's heart? No, we don't have that. We all view government as some isolated appendage, much the way capitalism can only see people as consumers or labor. We are born into capitalism, live it, breathe it from the moment we're born. Most of us attend public school and learn how to make ourselves attractive as workers, to get a job. To serve capitalists. If no matter what we do, if we fail at that, it's our fault. Capitalism tells you that.

Capitalism. Books tell you one thing, but we live it, breath it, live out our allotted years in it. We can differentiate buying a hot dog from a street vendor and patronizing Mark Zuckerberg but we can't find that line where capitalism becomes toxic. So, no we don't know what capitalism is either.

So here we are. We have a theoretical government that in practice barely resembles its base theory, and an economic system that in practice barely resembles its basic theory. I don't know what socialism is, but I do know that the government and the economic system we have now is largely oppressive and harmful to it's people. Maybe we need some new "isms".

Submitted by Big Al on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 8:56pm

You're right,

@Snode for the people, by the people, is socialism at it's heart and unless we have that, it doesn't matter what kind of "ism" any of us want, we have no say in the matter. Without democracy, nothing else matters. And to the socialists, they should be the first to say that ALL people should have a say in what kind of system we transition to, if that ever happens. So socialism shouldn't be the basic goal, it should be democracy. My fucking eight ball just said "very doubtful".

Submitted by Snode on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 5:17am

Yes, we're in a bad place

@Big Al we're at a point where to be anti capitalist is to be anti government, and capitalism is killing us, literally, and the government is helping it.

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 1:22pm

Brilliant explanation

@Big Al

for the people, by the people, is socialism at it's heart and unless we have that, it doesn't matter what kind of "ism" any of us want, we have no say in the matter.

That sums this governance mess up nicely.

Submitted by gjohnsit on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 9:01pm

Bernie asks the right question

This question takes you to REAL socialism

Submitted by Alligator Ed on Thu, 06/13/2019 - 9:31pm

The correct questions but no answers in the speech excerpted

@gjohnsit @gjohnsit I did not see Bernie's speech. I haven't read his online platform. But what are his remedies? As I have tried to make clear in an essay today (today's essay) the plan without real world implementation is useless. Until the conjunction between military spending and possibility of social improvement is clearly and repetitively made, none of his socialist or quasi socialist program will be enacted anytime soon.

So asking the correct questions is the right thing to do. But to add real life relevance to his or any plan, the recommended course must capable of realization, meaning of making the plan an accomplishment.

Submitted by Fishtroller 02 on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 10:02am

Watch the whole speech. Then check his website for the details.

@Alligator Ed

—

"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin