An Hispanic Amity Shlaes

I was out of town when AOC did her latest IdPol damage, saying the New Deal was "extremely racist". But, even though its late, I felt compelled to speak to it. Here's the pertinent quote from an interview at SXSW:

'The New Deal was an extremely economically racist policy that drew little red lines around black and brown communities and it invested in white America,' the Democratic socialist said during her interview on Saturday evening. 

'It allowed white Americans access to home loans that black Americans didn't have access to, giving them access to the greatest source of intergenerational wealth.' 
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6793601/Conservatives-outrage-A...

AOC said this in a discussion of her version of the Green New Deal. To drag in racism deliberately mixes economics, environmentalism, and Identity Politics, thereby making scientific discussion of the environment more difficult and detrimentally entangling climate change, which is a scientific reality, with unreconcilable social problems.

There has already been some c99p reaction to this latest damaging stunt - a move that sets progressives fighting among themselves while simultaneously validating a reactionary trope about FDR.

As k9disc said:

I know the New Deal was designed and implemented with preferential treatment for white people, but what wasn't in America? The New Deal was no more racist than America at the time, the American Military, Local and State Governments.

To call it a "racist deal" is to completely miss the point and to sully the idea of government doing New Deal type things for ALL Americans... And there it is... the dog whistle, amirite or what?

As a leftist, you don't shit on the New Deal as racist. It's a class/race short circuit argument. I find that to be rather troubling coming from "the left". I'm sensing lots of market based solutions coming out of AOC. And don't forget the public private partnerships...

https://caucus99percent.com/comment/405505#comment-405505

If anything, FDR (and Eleanor) advanced the cause of black civil rights during a very dark period in American racial history when Southern racists had veto power in the Democratic Party. To denounce FDR with a common epithet (racism) is a hypocritical cheapshot - a cheapshot that reactionary politicians (racists themselves) have been using for decades.

Critics of the New Deal, eager to use any method they can to discredit the idea of a government that helps the people (ultimately, in an effort to keep tax rates low on their millionaire & billionaire donors), sometimes argue that Roosevelt and the New Deal were racist. See, for example, "Why Did FDR's New Deal Harm Blacks?," by Jim Powell of the right-wing CATO Institute (an organization founded by one of the Koch brothers...of course), December 3, 2003.

I don't think it can be disputed that Roosevelt and the New Deal had some racial aspects. But is that really surprising, considering that our entire country has been immersed in racism--from the time the first English colonist set foot in the New World, until today when, for example, a Republican U.S. Senator says, "My father had a ranch; we used to have 50-60 wetbacks to pick tomatoes"? Indeed, if Roosevelt had said, during his 1932 campaign, "If I am elected president, I will ensure that all races are treated equally, and I will, by law if necessary, ensure that segregation between the races is ended; the South will be put in it's place, once and for all," he would never have been elected president. And if he had said something like that during his presidency (and followed up with the necessary actions) he would never have been re-elected.

The fact of the matter is, FDR and the New Deal had to tread softly because much of America was not ready for racial integration and harmony. Indeed, communist and socialist parties in the United States, during the early twentieth century, pushed for racial equality...and you see how far that got them. Our nation has been so steeped in racism for so long that it is unreasonable to expect that FDR and the New Deal could have ended it in just a few years. Heck, even one of our national icons, John Wayne, a man who was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal in 1979, said in 1971, "I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility" ("John Wayne vs. John Wayne," The Dallas Morning News, May 23, 2014, citing a Playboy interview).

http://nddaily.blogspot.com/2015/01/fdr-new-deal-and-racism.html

Objectively, AOC's words support the rightwing trashing of the New Deal. Full stop. To bring up the New Deal in such a negative IdPol manner when this may be the first time that today's 20 somethings have ever heard of the New Deal is disgusting. It is scoring IdPol points by smearing FDR for being caged within the political boundaries of 1930s America and ignoring his efforts cited in the New Deal blog.

AOC is already a "reverse ace" for the progressive movement.

1. In an unforced error, she praised John Warmonger McCain
2. She instantly signed on to the Russiagate delusion.
3. She has waffled several times about the US assault on Venezuela, instead of telling the truth.
4. Her Green New Deal (GND), a half-baked pile of grandstanding, validated the rightwing trope that progressives want the government to dictate to the economy - even as the GND proposed to hand unprecedented power over to private corporations.
5. Now, she has the chutzpah to throw shade at FDR, a Democrat who singlehandedly saved this country.

That's really impressive. From nobody in June, 2018 to reverse ace just 9 months later.

This (scripted?) behavior is why she is never really assaulted at by the corporate media, except in a guaranteed-to-miss way. They don't want to shut her up, the way they want to shut up Ilhan Omar, who is actually telling the unvarnished truth about Israel and about Obama.

In fact, AOC has a lot in common with Amity Shlaes.

Amity Shlaes is a journalist who writes for far, far too many respected publications...Shlaes is hailed as an "expert" in history and economics, although she holds only a BA in English.

She is also a minor darling of conservative media, and a professional Panglossian. She...rocketed to lesser stardom with her 2007 book, The Forgotten Man, a revisionist history of the Great Depression that made her the queen of New Deal denialism. ..

Shlaes is responsible for elevating the myth that "FDR made the Depression worse" from fringe, libertarian circles to Republican dogma in the past few years. Incidentally, back in the 50s, Dwight Eisenhower actually referred to those who opposed the New Deal as "stupid."

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Amity_Shlaes

The commonalities: they both shoot their mouths off about stuff they are unqualified to pronounce upon. They both are media darlings, despite their lack of experience or credientials. They both shat upon FDR and the New Deal.

----

I have long since made my mind up about AOC. She is a corporate psyop. This latest assault on the legacy of economic progressivism is completely consistent with her M.O. The media supports her by publicizing her damaging IdPol statements - thereby crowding out class based analysis - and never really going to the mat with her, the way they have done with Omar or Bernie or Tulsi. They use her to discredit progressives. The dupes who fall for this act are hammering nails into the coffin of the left in this country.

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She is impressed with herself. I am not.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

snoopydawg's picture

@dkmich

Here's another.

Democrats and Republicans are Ebola, Injecting New Blood Only Nourishes Them

Cognitive dissonance. That is the only way to describe the logic in thinking that the way to rid our government of depraved politicians is by electing new members into political parties that are built on the foundation of corruption and nepotism. Yet every election cycle, hard core partisan fanatics are sold on the idea that a shiny new face will ride into our nation’s capital and deliver us from the strangle hold of self-serving public swindlers.

By focusing on personalities, we keep missing the forest for the twigs. The problem of our politics is not the people we elect but the duopoly as a whole. It is beyond preposterous that a country with more than 300,000,000 is limited in choosing between two equally malicious options. Democrats and Republicans are offshoots of the same corporate ideology, they differ in their means but their end is the same.

Both parties enact policies of wealth transference from the many to a few and both are prostitutes of the military-financial, prison-industrial, media-politico and pharma-insurance complexes. Billions of dollars are funneled to the political parties through these various industries, believing that one person is powerful enough to overturn this level of graft and corruption that emodies both parties is either the height of delusion or the apex of duplicity.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and noted that she would eventually start pivoting away from the issues she ran on. It took less than a week for her to backtrack about Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and this morning I found out about Alexandria taking money from JP Morgan and private equity firm called Elevation Partners. This is not to single out Alexandria nor to bash her unfairly, when two parties have a choke hold on government and their corporate masters have a leash on both, you either play the insider game or you will not be long in power.

If you look back over the past 100 years, irrespective of the faces who occupy the White House and Congress, the policies of endless wars and catering to the 1% have been remarkably steady. That is because we keep voting between chicken shit and cow manure and expecting a gourmet of change. Will we keep doing the same thing for another 100 years? When will we stop focusing on personalities and find ways to dislodge both political parties? #EbolaPoliticalParties

Nailed it again.

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America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

arendt's picture

@snoopydawg

Teodrose Fikre is very much in line with Caitlin Johnstone regarding narrative:

the status quo. A two faction scam that is rejected by a vast majority of Americans—when independents are combined with people who have been driven out of voting participation—is now being given a veneer of legitimacy by the latest media darling. Instead of finding ways to dismantle these two criminal enterprises who collude to commandeer our government, we will be navel gazing at yet another cult of personality...

If you take away nothing else from this article, I hope it’s this one overriding message. Do not be lured by the bait of actors and narratives. Unless you think that one person is powerful enough to sweep away decades, if not centuries, of rooted corruption built on the backs of these two malicious political parties, it is imperative that we focus on the systemic graft that allows them to fester. If your lawn is infested with weed, are you doing anything to solve the problem by planting a rose in the midst of the outbreak? .

And, fittingly, Eleanor Roosevelt was there first:

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; the little minds discuss people.

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snoopydawg's picture

@arendt

The first one I read was about the first black bank president and I have seen one that isn't good. Here's another one about Barry and Nancy's screwing us after the banks did so first.

two faction scam

I'm seeing quite a few people seeing through AOC. It's good that people are aware of what's happening, but I think we can thank Obama for that after what he pulled.

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15 users have voted.

America is a pathetic nation; a fascist state fueled by the greed, malice, and stupidity of her own people.
- strife delivery

@arendt

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arendt's picture

@wouldsman

I am discussing the corporate strategy. Strategy, In Eleanor R's heirarchy is an "idea". The strategy is to give her tons of free air time and never really criticize her. All this is to have her hijack the progressive movement and run it into an IdPol ditch.

For the corporate purpose, she could be anyone who is photogenic and well spoken, so long as they do and say what they are told. She is merely a means to accomplish a corporate end.

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@arendt AOC is a person. And you may think you have written about an idea. But it reads as a hit piece on a person. The opening paragraph calls out AOC. Almost the entire body of the article focuses on AOC and your closing remarks are about AOC. And your reply to me was an attack on AOC. Had you talked about an idea and focused on several people that would be different. You took an idea and used it to hammer one person.
I like the ER quote that you have included. It has great meaning. It should be honored.

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arendt's picture

@wouldsman

My "attacks", as you provocatively phrase it, are on the strategy and actions of this corporate-supported persona. I would dissect the actions of anybody supporting the same strategy. You fail to acknowledge that all of my comments are about her actions, not personal attacks. It is you who wants to make it personal. You want to claim that attacking the actions is attacking the person. I do not buy that.

As for AOC, she is a willing participant in this attempt to derail enviornmentalism with IdPol. She is a politician. Politicians get criticized for their actions.

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@arendt Just don't pretend to be taking some high road. Calling someone a tool is an attack.
As you said yesterday at 3:18(?) and quoting from memory "this thread is about AOC".
It isn't that I disagree that there are some valid points to be made about AOC and her conviction to environmentalism, it is just so disingenuous to pretend to be taking some high road as you are attacking people.
Your mirror may need to be cleaned. You might see yourself a little better.

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@wouldsman "This thread is about AOC.". Yes my memory was correct. Not sure how to do a quote on this site.

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@wouldsman
highlight the text you want quoted with your mouse cursor then click the blockquote icon above the text editor (it's the one with the quotation marks (") and your done. That's pretty much how all the icons above the text editor work except for the first 3 on the left.

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@snoopydawg

. That is because we keep voting between chicken shit and cow manure and expecting a gourmet of change.

to a cold shit sandwich or warm vomit stew.

The USian people chose a warm meal last election cycle.

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Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

gulfgal98's picture

@snoopydawg I definitely like Teodrose's writing. Basically, throughout his essays, there is great sense of decency and basic humanity which is something that has been lost in this country.

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~Dr. Cornel West

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F Kennedy

gulfgal98's picture

@dkmich

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"I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~Dr. Cornel West

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." John F Kennedy

I liked that she was bringing some of these things to the forefront, but I agree with what you write--there seems something off.

Interestingly, Tulsi Gabbard has not signed off on the Green New Deal, complaining that it either doesn't address certain things or leaves things too vague. If Gabbard wanted to gain "brownie points" she probably would have signed off right away like so many others. Just another piece of evidence in my view that Tulsi is the real deal.

I feel like AOC is setting herself up with the goal to be the first female president, assuming one isn't chosen this year. How old is she? 29. She's 6 years away.

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@apenultimate Since she's shifted talk about the progressive left to now make it a Freedom vs Socialism debate. socialists, not progressives, is what we're called now. I don't recall being a socialist. While I agree with a great deal of socialism and recognize that it's a part of everyday life, I am not a card carrying socialist.
Then she talked about 90% corporate taxes and got the right worked up socialists were coming for their money. Not strategically sound. But on purpose? I doubt it. The right always gets riled up over something anyways, that's already a given.

The MSM used her to make those conflations. I think the MSM is trying to exploit her. But I don't think that AOC is herself anything but who she says she is, a human being, trying to do the best she can. Sometimes dead on, sometimes being led astray. Mostly courageous, sometimes wary. Always waiting for the next trap to be sprung on her. But not a corporate shill.

However, I fear when she's being led down the automation road..
Ocasion on automation.jpg

I began to worry.

“We should be excited by that. But the reason we’re not excited by it is because we live in a society where if you don’t have a job, you are left to die. And that is, at its core, our problem.”

The PTB want automation. It's the ultimate slave labor. Us, however, well we muck up the environment. The PTB want a green planet - for themselves. Once they've fully automated, then the rest of us need to go. A worldwide genocide on biblical scale. That's what I foresee for the human race.

They'll probably call it World War V.

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jobu's picture

...I am by this possibility.

To quote the great Cornell West:

Get contested, unsettled, turned around...When you've emerged, you have to learn how to die.

Learn how to think critically…

After biting the hook with Barack Obama in 2008, I am forever watching for the next iteration of Bait and Switch.

At what point, however, do I let go and believe again? That is a question I will have to answer alone.

Thank you for pushing so hard against comfort. We cannot afford that luxury now.

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22 users have voted.

Is very bad to steal Jobu's Rum, is very bad...

Do you want to complain about someone who acknowledges that things done by the heroes in the past show they had feet of clay and also complain about poeple who give those in the past a pass because "that's the way things were back then"? That would seem contrary to much of what gets posted here.

Pick most president in the history of the USA and you'll find something racist that they did. Or a war crime, or a crime against the US citizenry. Are you going to hold them all accountable or not? Or does everyone get a pass when "having slaves was just the way things were back then"?

Admit the failings and admit where they got something right in spite of their failings. The New Deal did exclude a lot of US citizens "of color" and shouldn't have.

Will someone make a case for "Pelosi did a lot of bad, but being a corrupt politician in thrall to the oligarchs was just the way things were, look at the good things she did so all in all she was wonderful and we could have used more like her"?

Unfortunately, it seems that once you start to understand the failings of politics down through history, there's damn few "heroes" who don't have a skeleton in the closet. We seem to be lucky if we get someone who is predominately good vs predominately bad, but even then the "good ones" often do a lot of damage.

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arendt's picture

@MichaelSF

FDR is a unique person, a once in a century guy, not just a run of the mill politician. He is someone who almost singlehandedly prevented the US from going fascist by starting the New Deal. The New Deal made the American middle class possible. It is no small thing to smear FDR and the New Deal.

To complain that FDR did not instantly end racism and therefore has "feet of clay" is like criticising Jesus for walking on water by saying he didn't know how to swim.

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22 users have voted.

@MichaelSF @MichaelSF

for each of us. Being on the wrong side of the New Deal is the wrong place to be. It could be because she is too young to have much perspective. Worse, she can believe that it all wrong because some of it didn't do enough for absolutely everyone. You know like reparations.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MichaelSF

FDR gets bashed so that the New Deal will be discredited. Americans imagine politics through individual personalities; discredit the individual and you discredit his ideas. This is done constantly in reference to the founders, for instance, and it's sloppy thinking. George Mason was a slaveholder. That makes him a sinful person. However, that doesn't make the ideas basic to the Fourth Amendment any less good. Even Jefferson, who was a bastard, was right about the fact that the existence and nature of governments should be determined by the will of those governed (not that he invented that idea). Saying "Jefferson was a slaveholder, you know," or "You only think that idea is good because of your white privilege" is, at best, sloppy thinking. At worst it's exactly what k9disc said AOC's comment was: a dogwhistle.

Having a country manage its finances through a public bank is not a bad idea either, but the number of people who condemn such an idea because Hitler invented Deutschebank is legion.

This is a cheap trick, a farce to anyone with common sense, but it works well in the media--particularly social media.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal FDR gets bashed so that the New Deal will be discredited.

Yet for some, it's all just a big coincidence that AOC drops this dud the same week Trump unveils his budget cutting Social Security and Medicare.

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Peace Sells

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger

is alive and well on the internet, so some percentage of all the people you talk to either aren't people at all, or are operatives, probably manning more than one personality. Their mission is conversation-steering; character assassination is their main tactic. That's just a fact of the internet.

But of course not everybody who wants to think well of a politician is an operative or a bit of code--far from it. The actual people who are simply expressing their actual opinions sometimes discount or even ignore evidence that casts doubt on leadership. Part of that is just a human thing. Human beings need to have faith in their leaders, or at least it's a heavy lift for most members of our species to do without leaders. Often, people place their faith in leaders the way I'd place water in a pot. If the pot breaks, the water goes. Thus, in defending the leader, they are defending their own capacity to believe in a better tomorrow, and in their own ability to affect their surroundings for the good, which should make it obvious why people defend their leaders so assiduously.

Another part of this is specific to our country and has to do with duopoly enforcement.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MichaelSF

Will someone make a case for "Pelosi did a lot of bad, but being a corrupt politician in thrall to the oligarchs was just the way things were, look at the good things she did so all in all she was wonderful and we could have used more like her"?

What good things did she do? The last time I remember her doing something good was when she tried to stop the Iraq War. That was before she was named Minority Leader, and as soon as she was, she did a 180 on Iraq.

Since then, the only (possibly) good thing she's done is support and vote for ACES (the American Clean Energy and Security Act). I say "possibly" because ACES was actually pretty awful once the concessions to petroleum giants were incorporated. I'm wracking my brain to think of anything else good she's done in the past 15 years.

Comparing her record to FDR's is farcical. Your analogy fails.

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal he established that government should be responsible for more than commerce and defense and responsive to the peoples needs.

Pelosi is a manager. She moves along whatever is funneled her way and weeds out undesirable (to donors) legislation. I suppose she's a "good" manager, but managers are most fondly remembered for making the trains run on time, not ideas.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Snode

I don't agree with you about Pelosi.

I don't mean to be a shit here, but which trains are running more on time because she has a position of authority? It seems to me like we're going the same direction that we have been since 1980, and at roughly the same pace as we've been moving since it became clear that Obama wasn't going to change the direction of the country (everything sped up at that point).

In other words, our civilization is being dismantled around us in ways that most of us can no longer express or even conceive. Criticisms that were made even under the Bush administration have disappeared. Analysis has been replaced by scapegoating. The response to any problem is to find a target and heap opprobrium on it. Or to cut non-military spending. That's basically all that's left.

Pelosi is, indeed, managing this status quo, but since this status quo is more like a degenerative condition than a civilization, the management of it must be considered the lamest and most useless form of politics ever developed. It's not like she's managing the symptoms to lessen their impact; she's managing the situation so that the degenerative condition can continue to do its work. Who protects a disease?

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4 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal the mention of Pelosi being a "good" manager and trains was referencing what they said about Mussolini and the fascist government, that least he made the trains run on time. Managers are told what to do, and they make it happen. I didn't mean what they did was inherently good. The opposite, really.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Snode

Well, I didn't mean to be a shit, but I guess I kinda was anyway.

Sorry, Snode. Smile

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Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@MichaelSF had food, clothing and work opportunities from the New Deal. It was a big help. But FDR sent the Japanese Americans to internment camps with an Executive Order, not just signing off on a bill from Congress, so big pluses AND big minuses for FDR.

Some here seem to very clearly to have animus against Ocasio-Cortez, Sanders, Gabbard, and others. If you are going to have a purity test for the goose, then let's see the gander having one applied too.

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arendt's picture

@MichaelSF

Some here seem to very clearly to have animus against Ocasio-Cortez, Sanders, Gabbard, and others. If you are going to have a purity test for the goose, then let's see the gander having one applied too.

This thread is about AOC. There is very little mention of Sanders or Gabard. None of others.
So where do you get this broad claim, and why does the OP bother you so much?

In case you are new here, its my stance that the political process is completely corrupt. If you want to talk "purity tests", every name Democrat would fail. Its obvious I think AOC is a fraud. And, I began the essay with five examples of why she is a fraud. The reason I have singled out AOC is because it is such a deeply planned and sophisticated fraud that has fooled large numbers of people who do not follow politics as obsessively as we here at c99p do.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MichaelSF

Since Pelosi hasn't done anything that I can remember for the last fifteen years that was of any use. Partying because the Supreme Court struck down DOMA doesn't count as doing something. Or are we still trotting out the Lily Ledbetter Act as proof of concept?

ACES is pretty much the only thing I can think of that she's done in fifteen years that could be argued to be good, or at least useful. But the Democratic Senate took care of that by pronouncing it dead on arrival. And even ACES was filled with NAFTA-styled prostrations before the private sector generally, and the oil barons specifically, which is not a particularly good thing for a climate bill.

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@MichaelSF

everything that is wrong with seeing politics solely through the lens of individual character.

First, you discuss the benefits of the New Deal. Then you say that FDR put Japanese-Americans in internment camps. The internment camps have nothing to do with the New Deal except that the same individual led both efforts.

So if I discovered the cure for cancer, but also sold plaster powder as infant formula in India, would you throw away the cancer cure because I had murdered infants with fake milk powder? Would you stop to check whether the cancer cure worked or not? If it did work, would you still throw it away because a bad person discovered it?

If you are willing to throw away good ideas because bad people came up with them, doesn't that make you the purist?

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

The Aspie Corner's picture

The New Deal was also implemented to undermine any traction the labor movement and class consciousness had in the US Empire. The pigs feared a Soviet-style uprising, though that didn't stop them from trying to kill one of their own. Of course, since 'Murica will never reconcile its own history, most people don't know that.

Don't get the wrong idea: AOC is another bait and switch, pure and simple. A tactic as old as capitalism itself.

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15 users have voted.

Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.

Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.

arendt's picture

@The Aspie Corner

That he prevented a revolution by moderating the Great Depression and giving workers some rights.

The issue for me is that FDR and the ND have become the last good thing standing on the progressive side of politics. The right has been gunning for the ND since the day FDR proposed it. Despite the fact that Social Security and many Federal agencies are still functioning, the ND has essentially passed into mythology. It is a talisman. It is an article of faith.

For a supposed Democrat to attack it is beyond the pale, it is Clintonesque in its triangulation. Here we are trying to parse out whether or not IdPol trumps 80 years of good outcomes for America. We are playing the game of the triangulators. And AOC is one.

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jobu's picture

@The Aspie Corner @The Aspie Corner

The New Deal was also implemented to undermine any traction the labor movement and class consciousness had in the US Empire.

You won't get me to excuse the shortcomings, such as they were, of the New Deal. Despite any failings, the New Deal has had an enormously positive impact on our society, IMO. As such, like anything, it offers us a chance to learn and improve upon it.

To me, that process never ends.

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15 users have voted.

Is very bad to steal Jobu's Rum, is very bad...

@The Aspie Corner

exactly what traction did labor unions have when everyone was unemployed and starving? Can't unionize a workforce when there aren't any.

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6 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Big Al's picture

hammer on. She is basically an actress chosen and assigned to promote the ideals and opinions of those behind her election. It's one of the five primary goals of the New Green Deal.

E) to promote justice and equity by stopping current, preventing future, and repairing historic oppression of indigenous peoples, communities of color, migrant communities, deindustrialized communities, depopulated rural communities, the poor, low-income workers, women, the elderly, the unhoused, people with disabilities, and youth (referred to in this resolution as “frontline and vulnerable communities”);

It appears they've decided to use this approach to support that goal and ideology. Just like she didn't have anything to do with the New Green Deal proposal, what she's saying here is well coached and rehearsed with her handlers.

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15 users have voted.
arendt's picture

@Big Al

and poisoning environmentalism in the process. She (or her handlers) are deliberately moving the argument from science to IdPol. That will turn off a lot of Americans, from left to right.

IMHO, the game here is to discredit the left by having AOC steal its clothes and then drag them through a sewer.

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17 users have voted.
wendy davis's picture

@arendt

to say why i don't agree with this entirely, but allow me to try, if you will. first, i'm not sure any longer who the 'left' is, but counterpunchers, a few black agenda report authors, even the black alliance for peace (iirc) seem to support 'the deal'. one can't get away from either ocasio or her GND at any of the myriad sites i check out semi-regularly (same for ilhan omar, but that's a whole 'nother story i'll leave alone here in the main).

but as to poisoning environmentalism, i can't think of one of the climate gods in the US who hasn't done the same for over a decade, from bill mckibben (trade your gas-guzzling SUV for an electirc one!) to naomi klein. but at least the green party's NGD seemed to recognize that the amerikan military has the largest carbon footprint on the planet, or at least it seemed to, given how the plan would fund it.

but to my mind, global capital is the author of climate chaos, and not only does green capitalism NOT address carbon usage, it exacerbates it, as 'zero-carbon emissions' is just another capitalist con to offset carbon usage, as the indigenous in 'our backyard' know only too well. i.e., to use capital to ameliorate it...is another ConAct with amerika (h/t newt gingrich).

but i will say that once the freakout of the fifth IPPC report came out, it seemed like a good plan to run on in 2020, and yes, esp. w/ the appeal afforded to 'disadvantaged communities', disabled, people of color, and other 'community stakeholders' (a corporate buzzword if i ever heard one), yada, yada.

never mind that the US is one nation on the planet, and there's a whole world of carbon footprints out there to consider, but but but...in document...we can export all our fine green tech around the world! (or close). so the deal never really mentions fracking, either in coal or shale (again, iirc), which is an ecological disaster, as not only does methane create carbon feedback loops, but the process uses millions of gallons of water for each fracked hole. water scarcity, i'd add is epic.

speaking of which, the deal does promise clean water everywhere, or some such, but the impossible dream of that needs to be considered: how? (guess i should have read the document again myself, sorry). anyway, i've lost my chain of thought, and need to go take care of a few chores. ; )

and here i was arguing to myself to stay offa this thread, arendt. go figure.

edited a bit, but i did also want to include one of the many ways she steps on her own brand, i.e. on twitter: 'when i spoke to HS students who asked me what they could do to help climate change, i told them that at least once a week they should take their own cup and bag to starbucks', or srsly close to that.

not to mention, it's already too late to mitigate climate chaos as i type.

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3 users have voted.
arendt's picture

@wendy davis

i did also want to include one of the many ways she steps on her own brand, i.e. on twitter:

'when i spoke to HS students who asked me what they could do to help climate change, i told them that at least once a week they should take their own cup and bag to starbucks', or srsly close to that.

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3 users have voted.
wendy davis's picture

@arendt

my favorite tankies featuring her ridickulosity and cravenness (schadenfreude is me), as they are in her congressional district and are blown away by her hubris and shall we say...reversals...under pressure?

i thought i might find @cordelier's original retweet of that one, but of course i can't. but he and red kahina and friends retweet her 'showing her makeup tips to her staff', etc. given that they all support maduro six ways from sunday, they do tend to call out the DSAs who only pretend to, first nuking maduro's whales, then worry about about T's sanctions hurting the people, and are so against US military intervention unless congress or the UN approves it. (R2P, of course)

she allowed herself to take the credit for amazon announcing it would choose another site; they asked why in the world she'd bought $41 grand worth of supplies for her office from...amazon, and today? beats hell outta me?

ah, well, a day in the life of...a comprador?

there are such critters as eco-socialists around the world, but last i'd bingled, the amerikan sort were DSAs. the ones in the global south have my gratitude and devotion.

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1 user has voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@arendt

left-wing movement that the oligarchs are stealing from the left and tweaking for their own purposes.

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

@Big Al Can't remember where I read some criticism of the Green New Deal, but the fine print of it created committees, oversight, all appointed, with real power, and by the time I read the article, I thought of the Green New Deal as implementing fascism. I have slept since then.
But I urge everyone to think through that proposed legislation carefully before supporting it. Read it, line by line, which I freely admit I have not done.
I am thinking AOC is a star of a staged production.

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17 users have voted.
wendy davis's picture

@on the cusp

from her house.gov website.

i stuck my two cents in about it all in 'green capitalism aglow', and brought in other author's opinions on the 'deal', as well.

i can't remember if i'd arrrgghed about the high comedy and cost of this proposal or not, but i just grabbed this tweet referencing it from the justice democrats twitter account.

@justicedems Mar 10
"We're talking about upgrading every mode of transportation, every building, every home to get to clean and renewable energy. That is a massive undertaking. There's so much work we have to do." -@alexandrasiera talking about a just transition toward a Green New Deal

now remember: 'renewble' doesn't mean sustainable or healthy for the planet.

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3 users have voted.
Hawkfish's picture

@wendy davis

I am constantly irritated by the lack of detailed thinking about the environmental and logistical consequences of renewables. You want to build a zillion windmills? How much niobium does that require for the magnets? How is it mined? Lots of it comes from Chinese wildcat mines that are toxic waste dumps. Tantalum for all the capacitors? Most of that comes from “boutique mines” in the Congo. And how much land area? Oh, you need to cover all of Wales to power the UK? What does wales think about that? Then there’s all the cement for the bases and the CO2 that produces.

There are 7 billion people on this planet, many of whom have little access to power. Population is only 2% of emissions variance so either these people live in squalor for another hundred years or ... I have no clue.

We are truly fucked.

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4 users have voted.

We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

arendt's picture

@Hawkfish

The corporate party line is that there are tech solutions to the problems of climate change, pollution, and resource depletion.

Its just not true. As you point out, all this tech depends on key resources that are either scarce or highly polluting to extract.

But that's too rational an argument to fit into 140 characters. The internet has ruined critical thinking.

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3 users have voted.

@arendt to just about every solution. It's a matter of weighing the overall benefits v the extent of the downside and comparing to what it seeks to replace.

Hawkfish and arendt, your solution was what?

As to the corporate party line supposedly favoring a tech solution, the implied suggestion is that seeking a solution involving tech/high tech makes us suspect. I have a strong sense there is going to be some significant tech element to whatever solution we arrive at, and I don't think we can afford to suddenly go Luddite just because evil corporate forces also are thinking high tech.

So I don't care if it's Exxon that makes the dramatic tech breakthrough that ultimately saves the planet. Mind you, I would prefer it be some lefty green guy engineering genius working in his garage on a shoestring budget, but I don't think that's likely, and at this late date, we can't afford to be playing silly purist games.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Hawkfish

poisoning us all to death.

I'm sorry that there's no perfect substitute energy source, and I agree that deeper, more systemic change based on a great deal of solid and specific facts needs to occur. But nothing will occur if the entire system collapses because of carbon poisoning.

Most optimistically stated, we are in a triage situation. If someone is bleeding out from a gut wound it's not the time to address the fact that they have non-Hodgkins lymphoma.

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3 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Hawkfish

doesn't mean that I'm chugging this greenwashing swill down like Guiness. I know when I'm being bullshitted.

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

wendy davis's picture

@Hawkfish

critiquing this diary at other sites, that's why africom came into being, to create chaos (bu special ops and CIA), then save subsaharan african nations from the same, the install puppet leaders to act as capitalist compradors. it seem that there's a whole new concept (subtle sounding) i'd read about on twitter to that effect.

wish i could remember the term, but brain like a seive is me. but good on ya, amigo/amiga, ad thanks.

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1 user has voted.

SHE believes her own sincerity.
Shes got some work to do convincing anyone else. I hope.

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6 users have voted.

Ya got to be a Spirit, cain't be no Ghost. . .

Explain Bldg #7. . .

@Tall Bald and Ugly

...if there's anything I've learned in the process of working, professionally (doing media/advertising, and press management), on 25+ political campaigns (from a sitting president, to federal and statewide races, to city council elections, and issues efforts), it's that your clients are just typical folks, albeit with much-larger-than-normal egos. And, in AOC's case--all the publicity aside--she's just a babe (no gender connotation here, merely referencing age) in the woods, to boot! (Just about everyone does stupid sh*t in their 20's.) She's going to make a LOT of mistakes. AOC has a sh*t-ton of things to learn, yet. For instance, "New York Democrats Could Eliminate Ocasio-Cortez's District After 2020." On the other hand, here's Cory Doctorow, from about a month ago...

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is preparing for New York's establishment Dems to eliminate her district
Cory Doctorow
Boing Boing
February 9th, 2019

After the 2020 census, the nation's electoral districts will be redrawn and it's a widely accepted fact that New York City will lose a seat, despite its growth since the 2010 census.

Ocasio-Cortez's district is a thoroughly gerrymandered Democratic safe seat, which is why her primary challenge was effectively an early election: whomever holds the Democratic nomination in New York's 14th automatically goes to Congress (which is how her predecessor Joe Crowley was "elected" ten times in a row).

New York's districting is controlled by a powerful, secretive Democratic machine, the kind of Democratic establishment figures whom Ocasio-Cortez has been criticizing, and whose candidates Ocasio-Cortez has been helping to oust through primary challenges, with the threat of more on the horizon for the 2020 elections.

Combine these three facts -- an NYC seat being eliminated, a gerrymandered district, and the burning hatred of the Democratic establishment who control the district boundaries -- and Ocasio-Cortez is right to be worried that her seat will be eliminated in two years.

Even though NY Dems would claim that this is just business as usual and nothing personal, the decision to eliminate Ocasio-Cortez's seat would be intensely personal, and political. She has been a thorn in the side of the establishment since she got on the scene, and her short Congressional career has marked her out as someone who shouts the unutterable truths that no one was willing to mention in polite society, and that the tactic works. Ocasio-Cortez has shown herself to be willing to upend the "natural order" of politics and cost some very powerful people a lot of money, even turning them into pariahs for having accumulated that money in the first place, and she's shown that she has a very good chance of succeeding.

The natural rebuttal is that Ocasio-Cortez's incredible popularity and ability to galvanize public support is an asset that Democrats should welcome -- but the reality is that the Democratic policies Ocasio-Cortez favors (an end to the hydrocarbon industries, clawing back inequality through steeply progressive taxes, ending corruption) are anethema to the Democratic establishment. The power-brokers in the Dems would rather that the Democratic party loses than that it win and do the things that Ocasio-Cortez wants it to do.

So yes, Ocasio-Cortez should be worried about a stab in the back from the Cuomoites and other New York Democratic machine figures. But as Aída Chávez notes on The Intercept: "Ocasio-Cortez could just run, and probably win, in any nearby New York City district the party may try to draw for her." And if that wasn't enough, she could always just primary Chuck Schumer and become a Senator...

But, all of the above being said, let's not forget, it is New York. (People "don't get mad..." etc., etc.) And, Joe Crowley can be one vindictive s.o.b.!!!

# # #

(P.S.: Arendt, it's Shlaes, not "Shales.")

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11 users have voted.

"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." --Hunter S. Thompson

@bobswern to office is the staff, and the party hacks telling you things. Things you "must" have a "position" on even if it's nothing remotely to do with your campaign promises. I have no real idea if she's deliberately setting up to torpedo the left.

I do remember (I'm pretty sure https://www.mediaite.com/online/sanders-adviser-suggests-staffer-that-br...) at the start of Bernies first campaign, how the DNC was SOOooo nice to recommend a DNC approved computer guy to Bernie. He was SOOooo smart, and did a wonderful job. He'd love him to death. And what? 8 weeks later top computer guy was caught (must have great security) rifling through the system at the DNC, snooping on other campaigns. Oh, my, how could Bernie do this to them? Obviously HE HAS TO QUIT the RACE!

So, AOC seems pretty smart. I guess we'll see what kind of smart eventually. Have to say on FDR technically she's right. But FDR's programs established the basis for all the social programs we have now. If the republicans had won all aid would have been funneled through religious organizations as charity, along with their shaming and intolerance, and we would still have institutional racism.

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7 users have voted.
arendt's picture

@bobswern

And thanks to whatever admin made that change to the entire thread!

That's the problem with Google. I misspelled her name, but Google found her for me. I never noticed the correction. Perhaps if she had her own wikipedia entry, with her name in 28-point type, I might have noticed my mistake.

ADDED ON EDIT:
When I use the correct spelling, I do find her Wikipedia page. So google actually did me a disservice. It served me all the pages where her name was misspelled.

The Wikepedia entry is an airbrush job. Zero about her family of origin (one rarely majors in English at Yale unless one is a trust fund baby). Her connection to the Mercer family is only discovered by reading the Jane Mayer article in Footnote #3. There is no subheading for "criticsm", as in the Rational Wiki article in my OP, which quotes prominent economists and historians trashing her "research".

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7 users have voted.

@arendt
for you arendt. I try to edit mistakes when I see them especially on pieces that go to the editorial page. You'd be surprised how many times I get emails from non-member readers via our Contact Us link that bemoan grammatical errors and taking umbrage with our "editor's" lack of skills. I may not get them all but I try.

I've had a couple of those emails in the past that also contain errors in the body of their email. I took great pleasure in replying back that they should consult their own editor before finding fault in ours. Heh!

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12 users have voted.
arendt's picture

@JtC

but her name is so bizarre I had no way to judge if it was correct, and no incentive to dig deeper either (what a brazen reactionary liar she is).

Timewasting rambling:

In my experience, strange first names are usually associated with families of wealth or with religious conviction. In the case of wealth, the first name is often the last name of another branch of the family. In the case of religion, it varies. The Quakers have names like Resolve, Delight, etc.

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4 users have voted.

@arendt
until Bob mentioned it.

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2 users have voted.
Anja Geitz's picture

@JtC

I've had a couple of those emails in the past that also contain errors in the body of their email. I took great pleasure in replying back that they should consult their own editor before finding fault in ours. Heh!

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4 users have voted.

There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

@arendt

...rather than posting a P.S. at the end of my comment; but, I was doing a quick read, and really didn't have much time (after already spending some significant time on the comment, itself), in the middle of a work day. In fact, if the name wasn't in the headline, I probably wouldn't have commented, at all; because I publish (uncorrected) typos all the time!

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1 user has voted.

"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." --Hunter S. Thompson

arendt's picture

@bobswern

Typos happen. Your correction is perfectly in order, wherever it was placed.

Many typos are caused by auto-correct, which I despise. This error was not mediated by tech. I own it.

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2 users have voted.

You'd run into people who would tear down FDR, and in many cases on race. Apparently on the "tear down any building over two stories tall, and the remaining one story building will tower above" principle.

Don't have the links/numbers handy (they were at Wikipedia) but FDR got something like 16% of the black vote in his first run, and 77% in his second. And about the same or better the next two times. So we're left with either that masses of African-Americans saw FDR as helping them out, or an alternative "explanation" that would be racist in the extreme.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@jim p

They were all stupid chumps.

Sort of like all the people who came to America thinking it would be a great place for the little guy, filled with rights, freedom and opportunity, fair and glorious. All those immigrants were also stupid chumps.

In fact, anybody who ever believed something good could happen here was a stupid chump. Not like us.

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2 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cassiodorus's picture

Tho' it should be said that the SAME rhetorical defense of FDR that "FDR and the New Deal had to tread softly because much of America was not ready for racial integration" can also be used to defend Ocasio-Cortez -- that Ocasio-Cortez needs to "tread softly" when it comes to proposing the replacement of capitalism with something better because America isn't really ready for anything better than the sort of Green New Deal that she's proposed so far.

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6 users have voted.

"I was Zuckerberging people before Zuckerberg's balls dropped." -- the Devil, on "Rick and Morty"

arendt's picture

@Cassiodorus

I recognize that you are playing devil's advocate; but thanks for the opportunity to rebut the argument...

To compare her half-baked concepts (hardly laws or regulations) to the massive organized effort over decades to get civil rights and equal protection for blacks is an huge overreach.

The comparison simply isn't there. Nobody is saying environmentalists have to use "separate but equal" facilities. Nobody is lynching environmentalists for Sunday entertainment. Environmentalism is mainstream. The EPA was created by Richard Nixon.

When FDR was the president, racism was literally the law of the land; and the Southern Dems defended it violently (see Strom Thurmond). FDR truly did have to "tread softly" because a lot was riding on his success. OTOH, AOC is a nobody, a freshman congressperson. She has only the power the media gives her. Hers is but one of many GND proposals. Nothing but her career and the goals of the people funding her media machine will be hurt if this astroturfed GND fails. There is no reason for her to "tread softly", and she certainly is not doing so with her grandstanding. So, again, the comparison is a joke.

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5 users have voted.
Cassiodorus's picture

@arendt by figuring out what exactly it is that I'm comparing.

If we're going to argue that Roosevelt's New Deal programs, insufficient in themselves to end the Great Depression, were the best they could do given their circumstances, then the defenders of Ocasio-Cortez are also going to argue that her concept of a "Green New Deal" is the best she can do at this time. Which might be pathetically little, especially as concerns the most necessary step (abolishing for-profit oil production), but it's still the same argument as the one we're using to defend FDR.

Nobody here is promoting the idea Ocasio-Cortez' version of the Green New Deal is equal to the New Deal of FDR. 'kay?

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2 users have voted.

"I was Zuckerberging people before Zuckerberg's balls dropped." -- the Devil, on "Rick and Morty"

arendt's picture

@Cassiodorus

the air is starting to confuse me.

I thought we were discussing "was the New Deal racist". All of the sudden you bring up whether it was effective.

If we're going to argue that Roosevelt's New Deal programs, insufficient in themselves to end the Great Depression,

Yes, the programs were insufficient, but that is a new topic.

I don't want to get bogged down in nitpicking. And I do not want to discuss FDR's deal at all, because the corporate-friendly ideas AOC is pushing do not deserve to be on the same footing as the real New Deal.

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2 users have voted.

on someone else's opinion as this OP does, perhaps we might look at the actual interview and draw our own conclusions.

Here is the article from the Intercept that includes a link to the interview. I find that it differs quite a bit from the Mail's characterization. It's too bad that I find the lack of a transcript so frustrating. Happens so often.

https://theintercept.com/2019/03/09/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-aoc-sxsw/

The link to the interview is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU-SE5eNt04&feature=youtu.be

I believe the excerpt that is in question here occurs around the 20 minute mark.

BTW, I found the Mail's article to be pretty much garbage. Eg:

"Ocasio-Cortez's Green New Deal proposal calls for giving every resident of the United States a federal job with paid vacation and retirement benefits, 'adequate housing,' 'healthy food,' and 'access to nature.'

It also seeks to make air travel unnecessary and provide jobs for those 'unwilling to work.' It does acknowledge, however, that getting rid of 'farting cows and airplanes' will be difficult. One study suggested the proposal could cost up to $94 trillion."

At this point in any discussion of a change in the status quo we will have a tremendous pushback from the establishment and very slanted reporting in order to divide us, distract us, marginalize anyone proposing changes, etc.

Lots of money and power at stake here.

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4 users have voted.
arendt's picture

@exindy

and I rarely listen to interviews. I just don't have the time. So, while I recognize that the Daily Mail is a rightwing tabloid, it was the best thing that Google served me. I do not endorse anything else in the article. I agree the article is garbage. I just wanted an exact quote.

Furthermore, in this age of soundbites, it is the quote that will be endlessly replayed, not the entire interview. One might claim that she is being taken out of context; but this is part of a pattern (see the "reverse ace" list in the OP).

At this point in any discussion of a change in the status quo we will have a tremendous pushback from the establishment and very slanted reporting in order to divide us, distract us, marginalize anyone proposing changes, etc.

IMHO, AOC and the massive media push behind her are part of the establishment pushback. Do you see any other progressive candidate's environmental proposals getting any airtime? No. AOC is sucking the oxygen out of the room; and that's what the corporate media wants.

I'm not going to get into the details of a proposal that was literally done by some staffers over the weekend. From the headlines its getting, it is flawed and detrimental to a genuine environmental proposal.

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4 users have voted.
Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

in the sense that many of its benefits were not extended to black and brown people. What that actually means is that the New Deal should have been extended to black and brown people as well. Not only would that have been the right thing to do, it would have made the New Deal work better. Keynesianism, however much socialists don't like it, has the virtue of working better the more people it includes. Which is probably the reason defenders of the current system hate it.

I have run into this smear before. On Twitter. It's on my list of "crazy reasons to be called racist."

Me: "Barack Obama wants to cut social security. He even said his ideas about Social Security are the same as Mitt Romney's."

Them: "Social Security was racist. When it started, it didn't include black people."

Me: "Yeah, it was racist. When my grandmother was twelve. Now, it's the primary source of support for elderly women of color, who depend on it more than anyone else."

Them: .....

Me: "So really, if you want to cut or abolish Social Security, it's like you're punching somebody's black grandma in the face."

Them: .....

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13 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

You said it so well I didn't feel the need to:

I know the New Deal was designed and implemented with preferential treatment for white people, but what wasn't in America? The New Deal was no more racist than America at the time, the American Military, Local and State Governments.

To call it a "racist deal" is to completely miss the point and to sully the idea of government doing New Deal type things for ALL Americans... And there it is... the dog whistle, amirite or what?

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6 users have voted.

Actually, the issue at stake is patriotism. You must return to your world and put an end to the Commies. All it takes are a few good men.
--Q

Exit polls not involving George W. Bush or Hillary Clinton tend to be quite accurate.
--Doug Hatlem

How is the political issue of climate change any less a "unreconcilable social problem" than the other problems you cite?

Of course, climate change is a scientific fact. But it's necessary to politicize it to come up with effective solutions that are necessarily political and scientific.

Are these problems really "unreconcilable"? Should we just give up regarding racial and other social injustices?

Finally, while it's fair to parse AOC's ideology and practices, I worry that being "too" critical or "incessantly" critical of her plays into the same kind of problem you recognize in terms of her giving the right ammunition to use against the left when she takes shots at the New Deal.

It's difficult for me to determine where the lines of "too" and "incesantly" need to be drawn, but I think it's something that needs to be considered before we dump that purported "babe in the woods" out with the bathwater.

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3 users have voted.

@Wally

If it sounds too good to be true and has no track record to support a GD thing, aka Obama, watch it close.

“I guess the lesson is we shouldn’t be fooled by good-looking liberals no matter how well-spoken they are,” Fonda said about Trudeau. Applies to Obama and maybe AOC.

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8 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

@dkmich

I certainly recognize the validity of some of the criticisms being made of her.

I am especially sensitive to the importance of class as a unifying force and problems posed by identity politics.

But I'm also turned off by "nattering nabobs of negativism" as well at this point. It's all a matter of where to draw the line and I still don't have a firm handle on it yet. "Eyes wide open" is good advice. So is "For every action, there's an opposite reaction."

Then, too, as much as I'm a Bernie booster, I can understand if AOC opts out of endorsing Bernie prior to the NYS primary. The powers that be may well be ready to stick it to her by running and funding an establishment shill candidate against her if she supports Bernie. They may even go all out, as indicated above in a comment, by gerrymandering her out of her district. Politics is freaking messy and downright dirty. Bernie has even asked supporters to cut her some slack re. an endorsement (how much slack he hasn't indicated yet), so my guess is she's pressed between a rock and a hard place.

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1 user has voted.
arendt's picture

@Wally

How is the political issue of climate change any less a "unreconcilable social problem" than the other problems you cite?

Of course, climate change is a scientific fact. But it's necessary to politicize it to come up with effective solutions that are necessarily political and scientific.

First of all, climate change is a matter of hard numbers. PPM of CO2, extent of arctic ice cover, glacial retreat rate. We can't even win against the fake science of the fossil fuel industry with hard numbers, with pictures of starving polar bears. Basically, the politics is already there. Too bad the politics is stopping an honest discussion of climate change.

But to introduce completely unscientific values into this debate will just make it easier for the corporatists to blow off the whole issue. Race is not even a scientific fact, much less something that needs to be part of a debate about how fast ALL of humanity is being screwed. Race is one of the divisive IdPol issues that always fractures things instead of reaching for a consensus. It is us-against-them politics when climate change needs to be about "we are all in this together".

Are these problems really "unreconcilable"? Should we just give up regarding racial and other social injustices?

The IdPol approach literally rejects reconciliation. They demand reparations. They demand special treatment. We have had 30 years of IdPol politics, and that has destroyed the left in this country. IMHO, IdPol is yet another establishment tactic, like Cointelpro - get the proles fighting with each other.

What we need to give up on is the IdPol approach to social injustice. We need to follow the economic/class approach to social justice. We need jobs open to all, not some damn quota system (quotas were Richard Nixon's trick to sabotage the civil rights movement by instigating tokenism and cronyism). Cleaning up polluting power plants and oil infrastructure will automatically do more good for poor people than for other groups, because such dirty facilities are always sited in low-income/minority neighborhoods. And, since its minority neighborhoods where the work needs to be done, the locals would get a preference in hiring without the need for quotas.

Finally, while it's fair to parse AOC's ideology and practices, I worry that being "too" critical or "incessantly" critical of her plays into the same kind of problem you recognize in terms of her giving the right ammunition to use against the left when she takes shots at the New Deal.

It's difficult for me to determine where the lines of "too" and "incesantly" need to be drawn, but I think it's something that needs to be considered before we dump that purported "babe in the woods" out with the bathwater.
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Sorry. In nine months it is quite clear who AOC is. Please review my "reverse ace" points. There are other I could add, like voting for Pelosi to be Speaker. But, this "give her more time" is the same tactic that TPTB always use to protect their assets. First they complain that its too early to judge; then later, they say its time to "move on" (TM) and "not look backwards" (TM-Obama).

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@arendt Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm certainly going to give it my consideration. I agree with many of your points, not so much others, and have some difficulty following some of your your logic at times (which may be my problem). Finally, at least for the time being, I'm still gonna give AOC the overall benefit of whatever doubts I have. I'm not sure how that will pan out if she doesn't endorse Bernie in due time.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@arendt @arendt

But, this "give her more time" is the same tactic that TPTB always use to protect their assets.

Obama and his surrogates milked that for at least two years of otherwise total inaction.

Then, as a reward for our patience, we got Obamacare.

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Peace Sells

I confess to being a bit dazzled by her outside-the-box reputation. I'll pay closer attention. It makes perfect sense that if the Dem establishment wants to trick us again with another Obama they are going to have to use a different script.

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Wink's picture

Let the Left whine.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

@Wink

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arendt's picture

@Wink

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Wink's picture

whines about what
@arendt

they feel are 'fauxgressives.'
AOC just another DNC sheepdog.

And, while she might not be 'Lefty' enough for "real progressives"
I'll take whatever shred of liberalism she (and a few other freshmen) offer.
Becuz nobody - Nobody - from the 'Dem Caucus' offers anything resembling a Lefty position on anything.
Give me 130 more AOCs to replace the 130 that won't support BernieCare!

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

is the easiest way for sheepdogs to gin up cheap applause.

After all, the past isn't around to defend itself and those who do choose to argue about "The Sins of Our Fathers" merely waste time that should be used addressing the problems of the present.

A win-win for phony Obama shills!

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Peace Sells

Some interesting comments by arendt, but AOC is young, has only been out there a few months, and I'm not ready to apply the Ivory Soap 99 44/100% progressive purity test to her. I also don't buy the idea that she is some creation of the Establishment in a devious, super-clever ploy to destroy the Left. The Left, what's left of it, has been famous for organic, aggressive infighting for many decades now, even accounting for Cointelpro. And it gives too much credit for cleverness to the Establishment, which usually isn't that clever.

If we substitute some current progressive favorites for AOC, such as Tulsi Gabbard or Bernie Sanders, we can all go through the same harsh scrutiny of their past comments and actions and conjure up similar deep dark conspiracies by TPTB. I used to post at a heavy-handed Dkos spinoff site where my favorable remarks a few yrs ago about TG were met with a chorus of She Met with Modi/Assad! She Has a Homophobic Past!! , meant to suggest she was actually some RWer in disguise. There was no reasoning with them -- they had latched onto their deep dark conspiracy and were determined to run with it.

Recommend that some of you send AOC some thoughtful comments about FDR's New Deal, putting the situation of racism and the need to cobble together a majority of votes with the hand he was dealt into the proper political context of the times. I suspect AOC is well-intended but only partially informed of the actual, deeper history of the New Deal, which would not be uncommon for someone of her young age.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@wokkamile

I'm not ready to apply the Ivory Soap 99 44/100% progressive purity test to her.

AOC bashes the New Deal for not being Progressive enough, and yet it's her critics that are the purists.

Might want to try a different brand of soap next time.

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Peace Sells

@Not Henry Kissinger as her remarks come out in the wash for all to interpret and misinterpret. But I think it's as I suggested, more a matter of her youth and inexperience in steeping herself in the real history of the ND, a/o perhaps getting most of her knowledge of the matter from one or two snarky takes from the IdPol left. And on that latter point, those jaded, revisionist pieces have gotten more attention in recent years than the counter-revisionist ones which (properly imo) put the issues of race vs class and congressional politics and problems of administering a new vast program into perspective. Has she read the well-researched piece by the historian at the SSA from a few years ago? I doubt it.

Iow, at the risk of annoying arendt, I will play the It's Too Early card here for AOC, coupled with Occam, because I think it's the simplest and most likely explanation.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@wokkamile more a matter of her youth and inexperience in steeping herself in the real history of the ND

And if she is inexperienced, her handlers certainly aren't.

Despite the carefully crafted image, her office isn't actually a Scooby Doo outfit fighting the evil grumpy old man. AOC receives political patronage, media exposure and message development (see Venezuela) that can come only from a sophisticated and well connected political organization.

AOC is an intelligent, adult woman who knows the political score, and I find it, frankly, a bit patronizing to suggest she doesn't actually realize she's a spokesmodel for the 1% con.

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Peace Sells

arendt's picture

@Not Henry Kissinger

My hat is off to your ability to say catchily in less than ten words what I struggle to say in ten paragraphs.

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Not Henry Kissinger's picture

@arendt

Happy to read your ten paragraphs any time you choose to write them.

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Peace Sells

@Not Henry Kissinger

...to all matters re: AOC. One day you're a bartender. Then you run for a House seat and you win. It's a whole new world. I'm giving her at least a year before I pass judgement.

But, yes, given the reality of our mostly-captured, elected officials, I definitely understand your cynicism. Been there. Done that. But, I've also been on the inside (to some degree) looking out. It may sound as if it's somewhat of an oversimplification, but think about your first year in college. It's a whole new world for most. And, yeah, IT IS (almost) THAT SIMPLE. As I noted in another thread at C99P over the past few days, and after working with more than my share of folks running for (and already in) office, they're all just people; however, most have very large egos (or, they wouldn't be where they are now).

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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." --Hunter S. Thompson

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