Israel versus Jews

According to family lore, my great-aunt and great-uncle were living in Romania in 1942.
They were 12 and 14 years old at the time. It was the old country, so the house was full with extended family.
One afternoon my great-aunt and great-uncle came home from school to find the house was empty. My relatives were Jews. They were all grabbed by the Nazis and sent to a death camp.

What followed was a saga of two adolescent refugees, without money or family, trying to smuggle themselves out of WWII Europe while being hunted by the SS.
But that's a story for another time.
I only told you this because I'm about to criticize Israel, and far too many people equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.

The Jewish people were oppressed for nearly 2,000 years.
Besides being the scapegoat for every plague and misfortune that befell their neighbors, they were kicked out of almost every nation in Europe at some point in the middle ages.
By being oppressed, Jews in Europe began identifying with socialism and the politics of oppressed groups. In fact, the words Jewishness and socialism were practically redundant until recently.

Where the Jews found refuge was in muslim nations. For example, around 150,000 Jews lived in Baghdad at the end of WWII, and they had been living there for over nine centuries.
My point is that most of the oppression experienced by Jews, until very recently, has been at the hands of fundamentalist Christians, not muslims. Which makes the current alliance between the state of Israel and right-wing American Christians to be bizarre, and dangerous to Jews all over the world.

Quite possibly the most bizarre political relationship in America is Jews and Evangelicals.

For the most part, despite Evangelicals’ support for the Jewish state and desire to embrace the Jewish people, their affection has often largely gone unrequited. In fact, only one-third of American Jews view Christian Zionists in a favorable light. This harsh reality, however, has not deterred Evangelicals from trying to befriend the Jewish people both at home and in Israel. According to a recent Pew poll, 69 percent of Evangelicals view American Jews positively, while 64 percent of American Jews view Evangelicals with skepticism or even negativity. In fact, Jewish Americans trail only atheists in their coolness toward Evangelicals.

U.S. Jews even rate muslims higher than Evangelicals.
The reason for this is based on both history (i.e. it was usually fundamentalist Christians that massacred Jews) and for the disturbing reason that Evangelicals support Israel.
evangelicals.jpg

Netanyahu and Sheldon Adelson were instrumental in creating this Israel/right-wing alliance, and it goes beyond just religion.

Netanyahu broke away from the traditionally statist Israeli right to support economic policies that lined up with those of U.S. economic neoliberals. He shares a major supporter — Adelson — with many top U.S. Republicans, and he has cultivated personal relationships with U.S. Republican leaders.

When Republicans now look to Israel, they see in Netanyahu a leader cut from a similar ideological cloth to many of their own representatives — not just in terms of foreign policy beliefs but also in economic positions, one who shares a Republican skepticism of the welfare state and embraces free markets. A 2015 poll found that Republicans ranked Netanyahu alongside Ronald Reagan as the “national or world leader you admire most.”

The creation of Israel changed everything.
Today Israeli Jews and American Jews have little in common.

A poll for the American Jewish Committee in June found that while 77 percent of Israeli Jews approve of Trump’s handling of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, only 34 percent of American Jews approve. Although Trump is popular in Israel, only 26 percent of American Jews approve of him. Most Jews feel less secure in the United States than they did a year ago...The AJC poll was done a month before Israel passed a law to give Jews more rights than other citizens, betraying the country’s 70-year democratic tradition.

“We are the stunned witnesses of new alliances between Israel, Orthodox factions of Judaism throughout the world, and the new global populism in which ethnocentrism and even racism hold an undeniable place,” Hebrew University of Jerusalem sociologist Eva Illouz wrote in an article appearing this week on Yom Kippur in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper titled “The State of Israel vs. the Jewish people.

While fundamentalist Christians and the U.S. government give Israel unconditional support, U.S. Jews are much more skeptical.

At the same time, many American Jews express reservations about Israel’s approach to the peace process. Just 38% say the Israeli government is making a sincere effort to establish peace with the Palestinians. And just 17% of American Jews think the continued building of settlements in the West Bank is helpful to Israel’s security; 44% say that settlement construction hurts Israel’s own security interests.

U.S. Jews are not down with the knee-jerk accusation of anti-Semitism every time someone criticizes Israel, nor do they believe that Israel should be an important issue in American politics today.
The biggest division between U.S. Jews and Israeli Jews is on the subject of democracy in Israel.

Bolstering this result is Americans’ views on the Jewishness and democracy of Israel: If the two-state solution were no longer possible, 64 percent of Americans would choose the democracy of Israel, even if it meant that Israel would cease to be a politically Jewish state, over the Jewishness of Israel, if the latter meant that Palestinians would not be fully equal.

Interestingly, a recent poll shows that 72% of the Israeli public feels their government disrespects US Jews.

I support the existence of Israel for one reason and one reason alone: Christians can't be trusted around Jews. Sooner or later some of them will eventually try to kill all the Jews.

The tying together of the idea of Jews and Israel is dangerous to Jews around the world.
The right-wing, reactionary, apartheid government in Israel, that is bent on ethnically cleansing the region of Palestinians, is the opposite of the history of the Jews and is an offense to the memory of every Jew that has suffered oppression.
Of any group of people in the world, Jews should be the very last people oppressing others. It's inexcusable.
More importantly, it puts Jews living overseas in danger to racist backlash and terrorism.
Israeli Jews are being selfish and short-sighted by disregarding this danger.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@arendt

if I'm not mistaken (please tell me if I am).

And what a case of the threefold law that is, if true. Phew!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal of France hunted down the Templars because he needed money and the Templars had a substantial store of wealth. He was able to suborn one or maybe it was two Popes to give religious sanction to what was simply theft and a power grab. That was perhaps the beginning of the corruption of Church hierarchy, which not only did not abate, but became more and more apparent and scandalous for the next two centuries.

Johan Huizinga said in his great book, The Waning of the Middle Ages, that it was believed all over Christendom that no Christian soul had entered Paradise since the beginning of the Great Schism.

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Mary Bennett

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@arendt

medieval McCarthyism. While there were probably some true believers involved, who really thought they were legitimately working for the good and the right, it was essentially a political movement designed to concentrate power and stamp out threats to those who held it.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal enthusiastically taken up and promoted by the Capetian monarchy (Kings of France) in order to extend their suzerainty into what is now Southern France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albi_Cathedral That cathedral fortress was built to remind the people just who was now in charge.

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Mary Bennett

@Nastarana
there were the Northern Crusades.
These Crusades in Europe probably killed as many as the Crusades in the Holy Land.

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detroitmechworks's picture

@gjohnsit Because of their satanic blood orgies and killing of children... wait, that sounds familiar...

/snark

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@gjohnsit of European feudalism was that younger sons wanted to carve out domains for themselves. Frederick Barbarossa invaded Italy in order to assert feudal control over the Italian cities and, I understand, most of the cities were able to fight him off, with help from the Papacy, I hope I have that right. I do know of but not very much about the Germanic incursions into Slav territories.

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Mary Bennett

@arendt
Anybody who thinks the Inquisition was primarily about anti-semitism has just got the history flat-out wrong. Persecution of Jews was an almost inevitable development once the Inquisition was in full swing, but was never the primary, or even a significant, ideological engine of that obscene explosion of fanatical bigotry. The inquisition was founded to protect the One True Church from encroachment of heresies, and there was never a moment in all the history of the One True Church that it was ever threatened by an incursion of Jewish proselytism.

And once you unleash the psychopaths, they will grab every target they can get their hands on, so as to get their rocks off. This is just as true in the War on Terror as it was in the Inquisition.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

burnt out's picture

@dfarrah

I find it amazing that any tiny country can have as much sway over a much larger country, so much so that the tiny country is trying to take away constitutional rights of the persons inhabiting the larger country and has the larger country's military at its beck and call.

The Israel lobby floods Congress with money. It's sickening. There's some eye-opening information that Al Jazeera laid bare in their investigatgation into how Israel is able to pull so many strings here in the USA (and elsewhere). Video below; Make a fresh pot of coffee before you start. It's a looooong video but I highly recommend it. It's four parts, probably more than most will be able to stomach at one time. I think the second is the one that deals most directly with the lobby. The entire series is worth watching though if you have the time. Be warned, the informationwill be very disturbing to anyone that isn't already aware at just corrupt how things are in DC.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/watch-film-israel-lobby-didnt-wan...

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All I want is the truth. Just give me some truth. John Lennon

snoopydawg's picture

@dfarrah

was because it's the path to the second coming of Jayzus? Isn't it supposed to start when Russia nukes Israel and then people get raptured and all 'non believers' have to endure the 7 years of the anti Christ before He comes and... well he does something with the 144,000 Jews who I think have to become Christians.

This is how the left behind books explained that. And most Catholics were left behind including the pope. Smile

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Deja's picture

@snoopydawg
144,000 are Jews. "The chosen ones." It actually says so, somewhere in the new testament, more than once, I believe.

When my teachers couldn't explain how 144,000 non Christians could get into heaven, and wtf about us not being chosen since we did what we were told by getting baptized and blah blah blah, and what about the things they always say at protestant funerals about the dead person 'Going to a better place' & 'Being at peace', well, I pretty much said fuck it.

Pardon my language, but this shit is so ridiculous. Just trust what the preacher and your family says, my ass!

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snoopydawg's picture

@Deja

well he does something with the 144,000 Jews

who I think have to become Christians. Oh well it's been some time since I've read the books I could be confused. Wouldn't be the first time.

Looks like Israel is pressuring our tv shows too. Remember how Israel twice hid behind planes to bomb Syria? First time got a Russian plane shot down killing 15 Russians and the second time they hid behind a passenger plane which fortunately Syria didn't blow up. Well on tonight's episode of Madame secretary Israel is blamed for using a cluster bomb that killed Syrian kids. But then the real culprit was a Syrian jet that flew off a Russian runway. By any means necessary make Israel not look bad. Maybe there is a twist to this plot and Israel will really be the one that did the deed.

...nah. Won't happen. But I find this very peculiar. This isn't the only show with Russia being the bad guys. Lots of Russian hacking and other nefarious deeds.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@snoopydawg

Russia? There's stuff about Russia in the Book of Revelation?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

it's in the left behind books that are about revelations. It starts out with Russia nuking Israel and then lots of planes crash, wives, husbands and mistresses go missing and so on.

I don't remember if cats and dawgs were raptured or not tho.

Smile

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detroitmechworks's picture

@snoopydawg Russia is supposedly mentioned in the bible, if you look for it in JUST the right way. Supposedly Gog and Magog refers to a team up of Ethiopia and Russia to attack Israel. (I didn't say it made SENSE...)

Sorry, just sifting through that crap it's amazing how obsessed the evangelicals are with their eventual persecution. I still remember the "Breakfast Torture" scene where somebody was denied breakfast. Seriously. That was the torture. I know it supposedly stems from something the Nazis used to do with Jewish prisoners and a bowl of soup, but it was so ham handedly written I felt like I was reading about the worlds stupidest supervillain.

I honestly feel the same way about a lot of people looking for secret meaning within mythology. They start with the conclusion and find evidence to support it.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urglg3WimHA]

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

snoopydawg's picture

@detroitmechworks

Supposedly Gog and Magog refers to a team up of Ethiopia and Russia to attack Israel.

There is a lot of Gog and Magog references in the books. I wish I could remember why I read the books in the first place. And Amen on this:

I honestly feel the same way about a lot of people looking for secret meaning within mythology. They start with the conclusion and find evidence to support it.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@snoopydawg

Smile

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

The World to Come

In its most virulent form, one that will be expressed once the economy goes into crisis, this Christian fascism will seek to purge the society of those branded as social deviants, including immigrants, Muslims, “secular humanist” artists and intellectuals, feminists, gays and lesbians, Native Americans and criminals—largely poor people of color—based on a perverted and heretical interpretation of the Bible. Abortion will be illegal. The death penalty will be mandated for a variety of crimes. Education will be dominated by white supremacist views of history, indoctrination and the teaching of creationism or “intelligent design.” The pantheon of new America heroes will include Robert E. Lee, Joseph McCarthy and Richard Nixon. The state will portray the white majority as victims.

This Christian fascism, like all forms of totalitarianism, wraps itself in a cloying piety, promising moral as well as physical renewal. The degradation of mass culture with its celebration of sexual sadism, graphic violence and personal dysfunction, its plagues of opioid addiction, suicide, gambling and alcoholism, along with social chaos and government dysfunction, will lend credibility to the Christian fascists’ promise of a return to a “Christian” purity. The cloak of this piety will be used to snuff out all civil liberties.

As the Empire declines we're going to be ruled by the Christian Fascists which kinda sounds like we are going backwards in that respect. Sounds fun... not!

Seriously though I rec reading this if you're into Hedges.

Pro life people really confuse me.

Abortion will be illegal. The death penalty will be mandated for a variety of crimes

But then abortion hasn't ever really been about life has it? If they wanted the lil darlins to be born and have a prosperous life then they would be funding the social programs that gives them a lift if their parents are stuck in poverty.

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detroitmechworks's picture

@snoopydawg I mean, I know universities have that all covered and I have nothing to worry about, but there's nothing wrong with thinking the concept might be fun.

Nobody's going to be interested in boring old Shakespeare in a couple hundred years anyway. I'm sure that an old collection of books and a group of people dedicated to preserving that kind of thing will just be a cheerful old throwback where the infinite money promised to us in the future can be spent on nice touristy widgets.

(Couldn't resist. Just was reading through my 1912 copy of Shakespeare, and I'm noticing things. Little things. I mean, I'm not going to go through with a fine toothed comb and spot the differences, but I noticed today that another "Version" of the Scottish Play is going to be done here in Portland. This time of course, it's all High School Drama... put on by a professional adult company. How our aspirations have fallen.)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkzHU_U45s]

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Pluto's Republic's picture

@snoopydawg

Disturbingly, they will be lifted off their feet and they will ascend into heaven in their physical bodies. People, too, of course. The air is really thin up there. I hope they don't suffocate

There will be no warning. Always dress nice and wear underpants, especially if you.re wearing a dress. That's my motto.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal @snoopydawg at all.

I think the connection is more recent (not sure on that).

I sure don't recall any discussion of Jews ever as a youngster. Not at school, church, family, or friends. I didn't even know what Jewishness was until Seinfeld. I didn't even know there were such things as Jewish names. (other than learning about Hitler) I grew up mostly with 1/2 white 1/2 Hispanic, and my Catholic friends never talked about Jews. I did a study on religions of the world in 6th grade, and I recall talking about Buddhism and Hinduism, but not Jewish or Muslim.(weird)

I think that current Christians who get all hot/bothered over Israel probably think that Israel is protecting their (the Christians') holy areas from the Muslims.

I don't get the support, especially, as the diarist noted, Jews don't necessarily reciprocate.

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dfarrah

Pluto's Republic's picture

@dfarrah

I don't get the support, especially, as the diarist noted, Jews don't necessarily reciprocate.

Wasn't providing Jesus enough already?

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
dervish's picture

@dfarrah I'm shocked that you're shocked. The history and evidence is overwhelming.

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"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dfarrah

not to unintentionally create misunderstandings.

Gjohnist will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but I took him to mean: "at some point, some group of Christians will take it into their heads to murder Jews," not "[all] Christians want to murder Jews."

FWIW, I agree with him, but I think it's likelier to happen as an engineered event than an organic one, simply because racist murder of all kinds is so useful to the elites.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
Thanks for the assist.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit

These days, it's quite easy to be misunderstood. And that's putting it nicely, because, well, never mind, you don't need my rant about the social engineering of political discourse in the middle of your essay.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@gjohnsit misinterpreting; it sounded very literal to me.

And I do greatly appreciate the education you've provided on all of the topics you talk about.

I just hang my head at the reality of human evil and how poorly humans serve their creator (gods, angels, spirit, whatever) when we know to do better. Bleah.

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dfarrah

I've commented here recently on some of the items you discussed in your post. And, I particularly focused upon THIS LINK from the NYT, when discussing same here at C99P, of late.

And, yeah...while I'm not AIPAC's worst nightmare (I am their nightmare; just not their "worst nightmare"...LoL!), I definitely have been very sympathetic to (and supportive of) the plight of Palestinians for most of my adult life.

I'm mostly Jewish (75% Byelorussian and Polish; father's side of my family migrated to NY and NJ in the 1870's through 1890's), however, my mother (her family was from Boston) was born out of wedlock (which, means I may not be Jewish, technically, and according to custom). But, I was raised in a Conservative Jewish family. Have never had a DNA test, but I've promised myself to knock that off of my bucket list this year. Very much relate to the Irish thing; which, was one of the reasons (definitely looked somewhat Irish, back when I had most of my hair...LoL!) why I thrived in Boston-area politics in my 20's.

Some side stuff:

Grandfather was in the dept. store business, with one of his two stores right next to the Princeton University campus. Grandpa was heavily "lobbied" for $$$, directly, by none other than Albert Einstein, who--while many may not know this, today--was quite "the massive fundraiser" for Israel's independence in the late 1940's; and have access to typewritten and signed personal/family letters from him to my grandfather, regarding same. Bonnie's father ran the Defense Intelligence Agency's Mideast ("Logistics") Desk (read: munitions supply, and all sorts of intelligence-related materiel, etc.) during both the Six-Day War (1967) and the Yom Kippur War (1973); and he told me some pretty harrowing stories about those chapters of his life, before he passed away in 2005.

Reiterating, even though I have these types of stories in my family history, the truth is I've been an ardent supporter of Palestinian rights all along. (Older bro and step-bro were major peace and love children of the late 60's, who were present at places like Woodstock and the Chicago riots, respectively; and my father was a diehard lefty, as well! It's from them where I first received my earliest lessons in "lefty-ness"--and a place in my heart for substantial Palestinian empathy--which have stayed prominent in my life to this day!)

Again, gjohnsit, MANY thanks for your most informative read in tonight's post. From the heart: extremely appreciated!!!

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"Freedom is something that dies unless it's used." --Hunter S. Thompson

mimi's picture

... than in this one. It will take days to read through the posted links. I still can't believe that I met the first Jewish woman in my life in a US based McDonald and she showed me her tatoo-ed number on her arm, she was a survivor of a KZ. Her trauma was clearly to see in her wrinkles of her face and her voice not wanting to talk about her life.

It was then I became shockingly aware that in my school and university years in Germany I never had met a Jew in my life and was reminded of why that was sitting in front of that elderly lady.

The next thing which came up reading this thread here, is that I was completely confused, when I came into the US (in the early eighties) about the many different protestant denominations here. I just thought that it was pretty disgusting to take the bible literally and start to fight over the words. I knew only Martin Luther protestantism from Germany and I knew that Catholics and Protestants in Germany both didn't fight the proseution of Jews during the Nazi area and were quite alright with the Nazis. I read a lot of auto-biographic books about the holocaust survivors at the age of thirteen.

Another memory came up. I lived for a good year in Rome, before I came to the US. I remember a small community of Jews living very close to the Vatican nestled almost cozily there. I remember I was amazed about that but never tried to research that history.

As for my 'religious' upbringing. I was baptized (as a baby) in the German Protestant Lutheran church (which apparently is a bit different than the US Lutheran Pilgrim Church). I consider myself lucky that our pastor, who was supposed to teach us something about christian values of the Protestant Lutheran church, had a stuttering disablilty and we happened to not been instructed very well for that reason. May be that wasn't that bad... who knows.

My mother was never a person, who showed any interest for the church, even though we were baptized. She must have been exposed to some bigotry as a teenager during the Third Reich by church people, that she never talked about. It must have turned her away from anything that related to church people.

And my father used to say to explain his relationship to God with the sentence: "If you end up at the arsehole of the world, everyone starts to pray". I guess he had been to the arseholes of the world twice, but when it came to that he always started to break and cry and my mother wanted us kids to stop the conversation.

So, sometimes, even not having been to the arsehole of the world, I happen to pray a little.

Oh, there was one link here that explained how Socialism and Jewishness was related (this link about Bundism) and I think this one made clear to me of why I felt closer to the humor and thinking of the Jewish community here in the US than any other I was aware of. I learned that those folks I liked most here in the US were Jewish only much later.

Sigh. Whatever rubs you the wrong way in this thread and essay, be aware that there is a lot in it to learn. Thanks for all the comments and links.

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I think it will do good here, for a while. I don't know how it can be communicated well. If you say you hate Israel and you mean it's government and Bibi, it's too shorthand. Even if you're a Jew who hates Bibi, it can't help but raise hackles when you hear it.

If you're a Jew and believe absolutely Israel is the Jewish homeland of the Torah, saying anything against Israel, or it's government, is an attack on Jews. You can't argue with that level of surety, you're wasting your breath.

I grew up in NY, at a time when it was said there were more Jews in NY than in Israel. They're just people. They're just like us, capable of greatness and villainy, and mostly exactly like the bulk of us. I would bet the farm there's a bunch of Jews in Israel pounding on their keyboard in Hebrew about how Bibi is destroying the country, and the Orthodox Rabbis are turning Israel into a theocracy, and that the 99% are being screwed by the 1%.

When I hear "Israel sucks" my mind hears Bibi and the RW. Thing is the person saying "Israel sucks" may mean, Bibi, the RW, Israel and and every Jew ought to be nuked.

Mostly I am worried about being dragged once again into a war brought on by arrogant fools, yoked into supporting an oppressor and having to hear it's justified by dead words written thousands of years ago by mythical beings.

Mostly, I got nothin'.

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@Snode
to point out that the Israeli government and Israeli Orthodox Jews have little in common with American Jews.
If I succeeded with that then the essay did its job.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Their position might be summed up as "This shit isn't happening to us again."

There is an important but subtle distinction between that lesson, and the one most of the other Jews seem to have learned:

"This shit isn't happening again."

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

is that they believe there is a "God". At the heart of the creation of Israel is the core assertion that not only is there a god, but this god promised real estate to certain peoples, and that those people should not only have that real estate, but have the god-given right to push other people off that real estate.
Yes, the Jews have been treated very very badly for a couple thousand of years. The reasons behind that are also very complicated, but mainly it's because of the bible. Christians have a love/hate relationship with Judaism that will never end as long as that terrible book is held in reverence. However, those same scriptures that found the premises of Judaism are rife with stories of a god favored people mowing down other tribes who believe in other gods. The history of the Roman Catholic church and indigenous peoples demonstrates the power of those mythologies. The Netanyhus of the world have, right there in the Old Testament/Torah the divine approval for their treatment of the Palestinians.
Judaism is not a religion of peace. How can one claim that when a core story of a massacre of Egyptian children is celebrated yearly? The creation of the state of Israel was a mistake. And the current history of Israel tells us that given enough wealth and power, the Jews are also capable of killing all the Christians.... or the Muslims.
Christianity is not a religion of peace (Jesus said that non-believers don't have a place at the table in heaven and are condemned to hell). Because this religion has held the wealth and power, they have been able to kill millions with impunity.
Jews in America are caught between a rock and a hard place. They mostly know what's right, but it is their belief connection with Israel that holds them back from acting on what is right and moral. They know that groups like AIPAC are corrupting our government's foreign policies, but I don't see a big movement to condemn AiPAC.
So for me, I no longer have any sympathy for any religious beliefs. Not any. Because at the heart of both these religions (and Islam) is dominionism.
Until humans walk away from these beliefs, we will continue to suffer greatly.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

detroitmechworks's picture

@Fishtroller 02 If you believe that the highest morality is to be beaten, cheer for those that do it, and be smug in your self-righteousness about it, then you'll see yourself doing that every day, no matter where you are, or what you do. You will always believe you are persecuted, and the world is out to get you.

I have decided to reject that hypothesis. I'm going with a different paradigm. We are what we create. Still working on the details, but I've got the rest of my life to figure it out. Occasionally somebody I pray to for inspiration comes through. And I say thanks and move on with my life.

I have a very Transactional opinion towards Gods. Certain of them have answered my prayers, and as a result I do small devotions as thanks. That's it. Hermes has a small shrine built by my own two hands at the Bus Stop on 62nd And Flavel. And it looks NICE. It's only about 6 inches tall, because that's how tall it's gotten from one person bringing stones for 6 months.

Everywhere else on the block there's trash everywhere, but that one little part of the block is nice. Because every time I take the bus, I pick up the trash, drop a stone, and ask for a good journey. Very transactional, but it also makes the place feel nicer.

Faith without works is dead. Works do not require faith. If the good works happen, I care not one whit for the motivation.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@detroitmechworks

I lean toward the transactional, myself. It's both practical and creative. It also generates data. What's not to like?

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

@detroitmechworks

Why is it that so many people are so superstitious about events in reality? If you didn't "pray" or "give thanks" to some sort of deity/entity, would reality be different? Would it change? If you had definitive proof that there are absolutely no invisible "spirits" of "gods" in the world, would your ethical/moral decision making be different? The problem I see here is the belief that certain ritual actions have an influence on the physical world. Add to that the belief that one's morality is tied to the supernatural. Even if you don't assert that, and express an "atheism is OK too" opinion, your narrative adds to the overall world meme that some sort of god belief is necessary for good to occur or morality to be enacted.
By the way, I've been where you are, so it is familiar to me, but no longer holds water.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

detroitmechworks's picture

@Fishtroller 02 @Fishtroller 02 I put down my stone, and clean. The energy there isn't good. Doesn't work. People will sometimes throw trash down right as I'm cleaning and mock me for doing it.

See I don't advertise the shrine. It's just there. I don't demand that anybody bow down to it, worship it or even acknowledge its presence. When people knock it down, as they often do, I just pick it up and continue on. Hell, I've only mentioned it to family and here.

And yes, if I didn't give the offering the feel would be different for me. Just like when you walk into a Dojo and bow, the feel of the place is different than if you simply walk into a gym and get to work. I honestly believe that the gravitas and respect we give to something is reflected in the physical world. A prayer to Hermes harms no one, and the place is still cleaned, so what does it matter whether he exists or not? The bus stop is still clean, the benefit given to all.

Of course, that's also coming from an artist/writer point of view. I find the muses are wonderful for inspiration. But I refuse to accept the scientific materialist point of view that if it can not be IMMEDIATELY quantified in an experimental setting, it doesn't exist. It's great for Micro scale observation of reality, but the world outside of an experimental setting is far more complex than one or two variables.

Edit to add: I had a debate with this with college associate professor who does Judo with me a few months ago. We agreed to disagree when he realized that I rejected Aristotle and Plato's philosophy in favor of that of Antisthenes.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@detroitmechworks

The only truth is experimental truth. You keep replicating the experiment over and over and coming up with the same result. Other than that there is no truth. The scientific method is the only way to get to truth.

The ancient philosophers knew nothing about modern science and had no ability to verify or refute ideas the way we do today. It is a total waste of time and energy to bother with them, just as it is with theology.

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detroitmechworks's picture

@davidgmillsatty And far be it from me to dissuade anybody from their beliefs. If I did that I'd be no better than the religious zealots who demand that others bow before their idols.

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@detroitmechworks If you consider a belief in science and the scientific method to be a belief then I guess so. To me it is the opposite of a belief. A belief is something you think exists without any need for scientific proof. The scientific method relies on scientific proof.

And I think it is important for a whole host of reasons. If one is free to believe whatever one wants, then it seems like one is free to believe in lies without question. And that is the major problem with governments, corporations and religions: they all lie and they lie profusely. And if you feel free to believe those lies, it creates huge problems for those of us who insist on scientific proof.

Moreover it makes the dismissal of science very easy. Ad hominems of every kind are the illogical method of refuting science. You call someone anti-Semitic or a holocaust denier, a Nazi, a conspiracy theorist, or a racist, or a corporate pig, or whatever derogatory term you want to call someone, and then that suffices as a means of derailing the quest for scientific truth. And of course these ad hominems give rise to financial blackmail and genuine harm results on many levels.

If we don't stop the constant lying, even when done for the best of reasons, we will continue to be fucked.

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detroitmechworks's picture

@davidgmillsatty I do not deny the truth of your experimental data.

Doesn't the bus stop get cleaned up either way? I could easily state that it is sheer will of mine that makes the place better, and that I alone deserve credit. Perhaps I should put up a sign as the Kiwani's club does.

But everybody does that, and the trash remains when it happens.

So, I tried something different, and it works. That is interesting data. It doesn't deny your data, rather it suggests that there is value to the actions I have taken. Attempting to parse out the "Active Ingredient" in an activity that works may be the scientific way, but it would reduce the activity to the level of boring animal interaction with no further inspiration or action.

So, rather than that, I choose to continue the action that I have seen measurable results from. Technically, this is not a "Scientific" experiment, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I prefer to confine my scientific methods to things that can be properly tested, like "What Happens if I quench this material in this substance?" "Why doesn't this experiment work for me when I try it, despite the published results?"

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@detroitmechworks

Has really nothing to do with government, corporations or religions. If it makes you feel good do it. If people help clean up the place, great.

The issue for me is the big government lie, the big corporate lie, or the big religious lie that has deleterious effects on society or segments of society. And every time a big lie happens, and nothing is challenged, the liars just ramp up the lie next time.

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detroitmechworks's picture

@davidgmillsatty but thanks for the conversation.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

@detroitmechworks

problems by endorsing superstition and supernatural thinking. Historically, this kind of approach to the world has done us all no favors.

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"Without the right to offend, freedom of speech does not exist." Taslima Nasrin

Read this as Israel versus Jesus. Swear to god.

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