The Third Party Conundrum
The People's Convergence had their um, convergence, last weekend. A couple reports follow, one from the Green Party, one from the World Socialist website.
(Link to People's Convergence website - http://convergence2017.org/)
Bernie wasn't there! No one was at his office either! I guess that pissed off some people, especially Cornel West.
"At the opening plenary Cornel West expressed angry disappointment that Bernie had not even been at his office to accept the petitions that had been collected. They thought it was great that they had 44,000 signatures."
Man, talk about beating a dead horse. Newsflash! Bernie is not going to lead a third party. I think more people are getting that now. The issue is whether the Sandernistas, or Sanders supporters past and current, those who haven't already gone back to the dark side, should put their efforts into trying to reform the democratic party, like Bernie wants, or go third party. Here's what a rep from the Green Party had to say:
"The key thing about this conference was that the majority appeared to have given up any illusions about Bernie leaving the Democratic Party. Most of the comments were for breaking with the Democratic Party because it clearly cannot be reformed. This is an important development. The Draft Bernie Campaign and his rejection of their draft of him served to expose Sanders, instead of consolidating his support. That I suspect may have been Brana's intention from the beginning."
Note: WSWS has a different take on that below.
They evidently are considering a joint conference with another group with overlapping membership, Left Elect. Here's their website link - https://leftelect.net/
"This group is interested in working with LeftElect and is open to considering a joint conference. Now we need to see if the steering committee of LeftElect is interested in collaborating with these younger people who have the energy to carry out the initial goals of LeftElect to foster and support independent political action. It would solve the problem of energy and personnel to do the work as these young people are excellent organizers with social media connections and skills."
The Green Party came out of the meeting feeling that it was the best choice for an alternative to the Democratic party.
"I believe that the Green Party made a huge impact at the People's Convergence Conference and is the only organization in a position to offer these forces an alternative and a way forward. The Green Party has worked with LeftElect for two years now and should take a position of formal membership in the network to enable outreach to this key ex-Bernie constituency."
http://www.gp.org/peoples_convergence
If you prefer radical politics completely removed from the oligarchy controlled democratic party, and not focused on electing more politicians but in building a real independent working class socialist movement, the World Socialist website has been one of those leading the way and telling it like it is. WSWS has consistently called for an independent working/lower class people's movement independent from electoral politics. For those turned off by critical reviews, you might want to turn your heads.
"The central political fraud—that the event and those who organized it have any real independence from the Democratic Party—was expressed in the first instance by their desire for the movement they are building to be led by Sanders, who ran for president as a Democrat and has repeatedly insisted on his desire to build support for the Democratic Party.
All the groups present backed Sanders in different ways in 2016, helping Sanders to channel social anger and opposition among millions of workers and youth behind Hillary Clinton, the candidate of Wall Street and the military-intelligence apparatus. Sanders, while nominally an independent, is now in the leadership of the Democrats’ Senate caucus.
The political orientation to the Democratic Party was expressed in different forms in the break-out groups."
and this:
"Brana let the cat out of the bag when he said that what “our movement is lacking,” making it possible for “the Democratic Party to dismiss us,” is because we lack the “leverage.” He added, “The case that we have made with Draft Bernie … is that the best way to reform the Democratic Party, if you believe that is possible, is to start a new party”—a remark that produced applause from all the panelists."
It gets worse. The danger is always the same.
"The political character of the event reflected the social forces for which the groups that organized it speak. They represent sections of the upper middle class that are seeking, on the one hand, to advance their own particular interests to achieve a greater distribution of wealth within the top 10 percent, and, on the other hand, to block any independent movement of the working class. Their aim is not to organize the growing opposition of workers and youth, but to subordinate this opposition to the political establishment and the capitalist system."
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/09/16/conv-s16.html
That's kind of where we're at, it's a small world after all. This while the democratic party is gearing up to pied piper the people back into their fold for the 2018/2020 elections by trumpeting health care for all and playing their "Trump" card.
The question for those struggling to make sense of our predicament is whether to reform the democratic party, go third party and which one, or something else, like an independent movement.
Where to go from here still hangs out there like a sore thumb. There doesn't appear to be the numbers or the time for a third party, new or Green, to have much of an impact against the duopoly in the next two elections. Probably, the elections will go on as usual, everything will revolve around the two corrupt oligarchy parties, and nothing will change for the better. Then we'll be at the same spot we're at now, probably worse, trying to figure out what the hell to do.
Well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
Comments
Unserious, like the WSWS article said.
Big Al, did you attend this event?
Bernie has gone as far as his late 60s mindset will let him go. Leave the guy alone and let him get on with his Medicare for All plan, which, flawed as the product will undoubtedly be, might even do some good. Is it possible that this caper was intended to distract him from continuing with the health care bill?
Mary Bennett
No, I didn't attend.
Just caught a couple of the critiques I thought were telling of the state of politics on the left. I'm not quite sure what some of these people think they're doing anymore. Cornel West, Margaret Flowers, Kevin Zeese, many of the professional activists show up at all these events and nothing happens after that.
@Nastarana I am deeply suspicious of
I am deeply suspicious of that bill, to the point that I would actually like it to fail at this point. It seems destined to do three things: 1)redefine "Medicare for All" to mean "a public option of some undisclosed strength" rather than "a public, single-payer healthcare system available to all," 2)reinscribe in people's brains the notion that "Medicare for All," however you define it, is something that will not pass anytime in the near future, and that political victory consists rather of getting corrupt politicians to have a conversation about "Medicare for All," and 3)extend cheap progressive cred to corporatist establishment Democrats like Kamala Harris.
As for Bernie, his position in regard to Tim Canova this year should have cleared up any question of whether he is an undercover subversive or a co-opted tool of the establishment. Not that I have any faith in the electoral system, but abandoning Canova shows that Bernie is not actually dedicated to his stated aims and strategies.
I don't actually blame Bernie for this, for reasons I have stated (too often, probably) elsewhere, but I actually do hope Brana's aim was what the Greens think it is; if so, that was highly intelligent of Brana. If not, Brana is either a doofus or a corrupt asshole.
Either way, the political personalities here don't matter much. The only question is how far we've come in our understanding of this situation.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm conflicted about Bernie and what he's doing
and what he did do during the primary.
He did acknowledge that the DP was corrupt and that it needs to change, but when he had the chance to change the direction that our country is going by joining the Green Party, he didn't follow through.
My opinion is that the DP will not be changed from the inside. Not as long as people like Pelosi, Schumer and the older members are in congress. There is another issue that no one talks about. Israel has too much power over our government. If they don't want a person elected, that person isn't elected. Or if a member goes against them, they will be relieved of duty.
This is the real foreign government interference.
Until the DP and the RP release control over the election, 3rd parties will continue to be blocked. Besides, the DHS is now overseeing our elections. This is wrong on so many levels. I look forward to the next election to see what the effects this has on our elections.
This goes for the creating a new party question too. What's the chance for them to be able to participate in the elections?
Good topic, BA. Thanks
Edited for clarity. I hope. Not quite sober
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
Israel
And there's no question it's happening, either. There's nothing more poisonous to any American's running for office than failure to kowtow to Israel. Hell, in New York State, there are even laws requiring businesses to keep to Israel's side of the Israel-Palestine conflict. one source
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
That is a scary article
WTF? Is this writer really telling us that are pursuing peace after some Palestinians launch a few bombs into Israel? Why is it okay for Israel to run out of bombs after they bombed Gaza for close to a month, yet it's not okay for Palestinians to do the same thing? Both parties are wrong on this issue.
~~~snip~~~
Again, what about the severe economic damage as well as Israel destroying the Palestinian's dwellings as well as the other hardships that the Palestinians are under? Israel is not only destroying their homes and infrastructures and placing sanctions on whatever items that they need to survive?
What has this guy person been smoking?
Across the globe, terrorist organizations are lining up, tearing at the very fabric of our democracies. This is the new normal of terrorism, and we must be resolute in our drive to combat it. We must not lead with darkness, but instead with light and compassion. We must fight against injustice not with words, but through deeds. Only then can we come together to find peace, prosperity and security living together side by side. I pray that Israelis and Palestinians work together to find this lasting peace.
Thanks for the link to this article. I have never understood why Israel has such control over our governments, and I certainly didn't know that they influenced our state elections? Can anyone explain this to me?
Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.
What has Andrew Cuomo been smoking?
That "person" is the sitting Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo. And my inner NetHack player strongly suspects a close encounter of the Nasty kind with a mindflayer!
Actually, I can.
Consider a candidate for public office who openly states his disbelief in the God of Abraham. In 99.998% of the Nation, such a candidate would have NO chance of ever getting elected. In order to have the slightest shot at power, one has to have always conformed religiously, with the signs to show for it. Not only does one need to be a member in good standing of a Protestant Christian Church (or a Jewish Synagogue in the state of New York only), but one also needs to have visible external conformance to Biblical norms in his personal life. Timely marriage (the traditional, Biblical kind only!) and biological children are de rigeur. Visible wealth is also mandatory.
In this kind of environment, where any deviation from traditional Biblical norms is politically fatal, any perceived opposition to the supposed will of the God of Israel is likewise so. Thus, we get the kind of dweebs into public office who write and act like, well, Andrew Cuomo does.
The US and American State Governments will have no motivation to do right by the Palestinian People until it actually becomes possible to get Pagans and Atheists (i.e., non-worshippers of the God of Abraham) elected to Congress and the Presidency.
Your humble scribe is 59 years old and fully expects to die before any such thing happens.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
Andy Cuomo would like to be president
for which he needs NY Jewish support.
As for Biblical, not hardly. The Cuomos have always been Roman Catholic, and appear to take it rather seriously, if not necessarily regulating their conduct by the Golden Rule. Cuomo married a Kennedy, that is a member of a family in which people are used to doing whatever they damn well please, who left him when it became apparent he was about to loose an election, and has since been living with another lady, quite openly. You have to be a Catholic to understand why no remarriage, but the short version is that Cuomo considers himself the wronged party and is not about to tell an ecclesiastical tribunal that he had no true intention to form a true marriage. Edward Kennedy, you might recall, did make such an admission to such a body so that he might be allowed to remarry, for which he received much criticism within Catholic circles. Cuomo might need Jewish money, but the foundation of his support remains New York's numerous and wealthy Italian community.
Mary Bennett
Biblical
And that's germane to the original discussion: why Israel dictates our foreign policy.
Roman Catholicism is a Biblical religion, the opinions of Johnny-come-lately Protestants notwithstanding. Specifically, it's Biblical in the sense I was using: the definition of marriage being one man over one woman, for the principal purpose of producing children, etc.
Good point about the indissolubility factor in Catholicism, though.
My point is that unless and until Israel's religion and its direct European descendants, i.e., the various flavors of Christianity, lose their monopoly on American political power, Israel will continue to dictate American foreign policy. Only when Pagans, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc., become electable in every State will this ever change.
And, as I said above, I don't expect to live that long. Or my generation's grandchildren, for that matter.
"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar
"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides
What I believe is that Bernie
is indeed a sincere politician and person, certainly by contemporary standards, but in his mind (I surmise) Israel--remember members of Bernie's family perished in WWII and not in combat, he would undoubtedly have been raised in an atmosphere of never forget--is still the brave little nation of the 6 Days War, not what it is now. I strongly suspect that Bernie was, after the Dem convention, persuaded that allowing Trump to win would be Bad for Israel, and fell in line with the program. I suppose he sees DWS as a friend, not as the corrupt loathsome hag the rest of us consider her. I do find Bernie, much as I still admire him, to be out of touch with some important contemporary realities. Every time I heard him talk about the rent controlled apartment in Brooklyn I wondered Does he not understand how many people nowadays would love to have those kind of living arrangements?
I believe that my Boomer generation needs to RETIRE from power and influence, grow organic gardens to feed our grandbabies, and try to preserve such peaceful arts as can yet be saved from our various heritages. One thing all of us elders can do, starting now today, is withholding our spending from companies doing evil. At this point, I think using and withholding the power of our purse is more important than trying to cling to political power.
Mary Bennett
@snoopydawg
I can't help but wonder how much potential difference any of this actually makes if voters and votes don't count in US elections to form US governments actually run by pathologically greedy and destructive outside self-interests?
Could enough of a landslide make any other (Homeland Security-controlled) result simply look too implausible to deny a win, if any non-corporate party was to be allowed to get on ballots in enough states?
Only how could the non-corporate party inform the public in the corporate/subverted once-Left press black-out and contemptuous disinformation campaign which could be expected, and with internet censorship already underway?
I know this is all depressing-as-Hell shit, but if we don't take into account the global 'above-the-law' monster we're (not really) dealing with - and in some cases criticizing Bernie for not being single-handedly Save-The-Day Superman - I suspect that we might be wasting time and energy that might be directed into something more productive, if we could only identify that something - which we may, for all I know, even be looking at right now, without realizing some potential for a step forward.
How can the blocks set up against '3rd parties' (a term designed to fit in the psychological framing of the 'inevitable' Two-Party Trade-Off no-other-real-choice scam and one I'd personally like to see replaced with some other term) be circumvented under real circumstances? Is there anything we're not seeing here?
Would the sort of strategic voting used in Canada's last Federal election work in America, even if perforce limited to 2 very small non-corporate parties?
If all voting infrastructure and information is to be considered a Top Secret National Security issue, how can voting results be independently monitored and verified?
Inquiring minds want to know what the better-informed and functioning brains here think of all this and all else relative to this - unless it's unmentioned on the internet for a reason.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Reforming the Democratic Party or Growing an Effective 3rd Party
I waver between these two points of view. First, it's about a twenty year (generational) process to create and grow an effective 3rd Party, and I don't think we have the time. However, turning the Democratic Party as an institution to the Left would require consistent and constant pressure from the members of that Party. Reforming the Democratic Party means rebuilding the Democratic Party from below, prying it out of the clutches of the existing power brokers and taking elective power one seat at a time from the School Board to the the Presidency. This might be a multi-generational process, also one that we don't have the time for... Is this Hobson's choice? Perhaps not, if we accelerate our efforts and concentrate on one or the other exclusively and relentlessly. Do we have the collective will to advocate and proceed to a resolute choice, then execute the political effort to make that decision matter? I hope so, because the future of human civilization may depend on us doing just that...
Hey kjg52 would bet that there are more than of a few
of us here with the same
for the reasons you listed. Perhaps gg has something with the link to https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/15/transition-towns-way...
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
@kjg52 prying it out of the
prying it out of the clutches of the existing power brokers
People have been trying to pry the Democratic party out of those clutches for about as long as I've been alive. 50 years or so. As far as I can tell, the best we've managed to achieve in those fifty years, working through the Democratic Party, is Carter.
Though I respect him in some ways, that's not a big enough inducement to keep working through that party, especially considering what they did to him. Apparently possessing any morality at all results in a political smackdown when you're working with these bastards.
When the corporatist corrupt bastards upped the ante by inventing the DLC and New Democrats and sending the Clintons in to accomplish what is essentially a twenty-year purge of inconvenient elements from the party, our victories shrank even further. After 9/11, they became non-existent. I admit I was caught up in the flush of the years 2002-2009, and actually thought we could achieve what we wanted through the party, and I busted my ass to accomplish just that, but by 2010-2011, it was clear exactly how we'd been had. Since then, there's been little point talking about doing anything at all through the party.
Even had Bernie won, I would have expected complete obstruction on policy and a series of hatchet jobs done on his character, possibly ending in impeachment. I didn't support him b/c I thought the Democratic Party was going to come around. I supported him because he was striking a meaningful blow in the war on perception, on the side of light. I also supported him because that is where the movement was, and the nascent movement had many excellent characteristics I hadn't seen often in American politics. My hope for change here was not vested in Bernie, but in those of us following him. But it was too high a hurdle for us to jump.
I supported him least in the moments he focused on transforming the Democratic Party. And I would have been much more cynical about him had I known he was going to use the resources he amassed during the election--and I don't just mean money--to start organizations like Our Revolution and Brand New Congress.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
People also have been trying . . .
to start a competitive third party for the fifty years you've been alive. How far have they gotten?
@FuturePassed Fair question, though
Fair question, though I wish people (not specifically you) would stop framing it as an essential truth (Third Parties Can Never Succeed) rather than as a set of specific historical, political, and legal circumstances.
In other words, if it were fundamentally impossible to create a third party here, because of American culture or the mechanics of our electoral system, they wouldn't need to create specific legal obstacles in the states that essentially require third parties to engage in a legal fight to get on the ballot at all. They wouldn't need to forcibly exclude third-party candidates from public debates (and occasionally take them off in police custody). When the system exerts force, it means something isn't inevitable.
That said, yes, of course, under these political conditions third parties are not going to electorally succeed. However, given the fact that there's a bunch of guys with a big carrot and an equally big stick waiting to talk to any politician who actually makes it to DC, the truth is that we require the mentality of a hero in any politician who goes there intending to change policy. We require somebody who's willing to lose everything to make a stand.
There are very few people like that in the world. Not nearly enough to get past the multiple hurdles that are put in the way of any person of good faith getting into office, whether through the Democratic party or a third party.
Whether there is any solution to our predicament is debatable, but it's pretty damned clear that if there is one, it's not electoral.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
No Conundrum.
Duopoly sucks.
New party or no vote.
Regardless of the path in life I chose, I realize it's always forward, never straight.
No vote - what good does that do?
They can win with 133 million voting or 52 people voting, one in each state. There is no floor or quorum-like requirement for it to be a valid election. The fewer people voting the better they like it because it is the stymied and frustrated antis who are most likely to stay home. This way they win, and we get nothing.
IF I had to come up with a plan, I would identify a few high-value targets (Manchin, Schumer, Pelosi) and work to make them lose. This way their loss is our victory, which is why we should be embracing Hillary's loss as score 1 on the bedpost instead of denying it. Making someone lose is easier done at the federal level and the Governors office because a critical mass of voters and funding can be gathered against them. IF we succeed, the heavily gerrymandered and demographically influenced regional offices at the state and local level will get the message.
This is what Grover Norquist did. Piss him off and pay. If we can't hurt them, we have no power. We don't seem to be strong enough to win, but we seem to be strong enough to make them lose.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
The NY Green Party really dropped the ball with
the NY Senate election. Essentially, any viable, believable non-neocon Democrat or progressive can sweep the rural areas of the state, leaving corporatist candidates to eke out their wins in the urban areas, which is what Schemer and Killary did. A decent Green candidate who had campaigned for about a year in rural areas might not have beaten Schemer, but might have denied him his Senate leadership position.
Mary Bennett
What party were the Jacobins?
We don't need no stinkin' party. Why would we play by their rules in a rigged game?
The first step is to be ungovernable.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
Bernie and the Ds, addicted to war
Thanks for the reports Big Al. If that conference didn't just rip the band-aid off the bern scab I don't know what will. He is out raising money and recruiting for a party that wants to drop more bombs on civilians everywhere, while talking about insurance products all day and night. Wait for the results!
Go Bernie? NOPE. I already have useless Medicare, don't want to inflict a corrupt "health"care system on everyone now, that is just stupid. A vote for Democrats is a vote for war, same as Republicans. War is the unhealthiest most expensive waste of all. Fuck those guys. Liars.
Peace now or boycott! Strike! Huelga!
No money for politicians, don't get fooled again.
Vote NO WAR 2018
good luck
Edit to add P.S.: California has plenty of "third" parties on the ballots already. Ds still have super majority and pass all kinds of crazy shit for rich people, monopolies, conglomerates, etc.. Regular people are dying on the streets every day here we have such poverty and homelessness, it is disgusting. Two million undocumented immigrants and now officially a sanctuary. WTF? Trump is not the answer, Ds are evil, no raising wages or building affordable housing, we are screwed to the max.
where do I collect ?
8-29
I am so very smart.
@irishking I guess the establishment
I guess the establishment can't have him both repair the Democratic Party's reputation and manage a controlled opposition to the duopoly. Pity.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
As I commented a couple of weeks ago,
it's time to move beyond Bernie. He brought the collective consciousness this far - we are all now on to the fact our government is not working on behalf of we, the people. He must continue to work within the party so as not to lose his job and to continue to try and get legislation passed on our behalf. Of course it is a huge disappointment to the likes of Cornel West, but that means people like him need to take the lead and push forward. Without extreme pressure from those of us on the far, far left, nothing will change in this country. If Cornel West is not interested in leading, others will step up and fill the void, or we are doomed to whatever fate tptb have in store for us. It is why a new party is in order.
Bernie is one person fighting to reform the dem party, which is not going to happen. Those folks are too far down their rabbit hole of corruption. We must leave Bernie to fight his own fight and take our fight straight to their faces by rejecting them and starting anew.
This is hard work, folks, and won't happen overnight, as many are learning. It will take a revolution. Until people finally realize that is the only way out if this, we will be spinning our wheels all the way to the death chambers.
Not trying to be dramatic, only realistic.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
I'm with you Raggedy Ann
on this
I have always seen Bernie as a teacher and his gift to us was enlightening so many people that we can have a better world for all of the people, not just a few.
But Bernie is not going to be the leader that everyone wants. In fact, I am not sure any political party can have a positive impact in our government, particularly at the national level. Our government has been completely taken over from the inside by hostile forces. Even 435 Representatives and 100 Senators on our side would not be able to change the course we are on.
We might be able to effect some change at the state level and probably at the local levels. But the national level is a lost cause. The only way I see a major change at the national level is if some outside cataclysmic event forces it. Obama had a huge opportunity to do so if he had broken up the big banks and prosecuted the banksters responsible. I think it would have gone a long way toward right the priorities in this country.
Now I believe it may be too late and am not optimistic about changing the course of this country. I certainly know that it will not be via political parties, either the duopoly or outside parties. The entire government needs to be revamped period.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
I'm of the opinion
that 1) Obama never intended to break up the banks or pass a strong financial regulatory regime; and 2) if he had tried I suspect he might have been assassinated. Same reason he limited troops on the ground while expanding our wars by using robot drones and the CIA/Special Ops folks to support/fund jihadist groups against Libya, Syria and Yemen. He did what was required of him to stay in office. And he was still hated by the Deep State. Think about that. He put a happy face on what is in effect a oligarchic fascist regime. Neither Trump nor Hillary threatened that regime, even of its various factions favored HRC over Trump. Sanders was a direct threat, at least on the economic side, but they neutered him.
My opinion, FWIW
"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott
Steven D, I agree
with everything you wrote. You are right. Perhaps, I should have phrased it better in that the banking crisis was the opportunity to turn things around, but no one with the power to do so wanted to or was able to because of the Deep State powers controlling our government.
That was the opportunity to effect real change from within. The next time a cataclysmic event occurs, it may be out of the ocntrol of the current ruling elite in this country.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Not to be making excuses for Obama
but you do remember the timing of the financial crisis, which, by An Amazing Coincidence came into being, out of the blue, out of nowhere, against all expectation, right about the time it was becoming apparent that Obama was going to win the 2008 election? That was before he was elected and the only power he had then was one Senate vote, and it pretty much tied his hands (which my nasty, suspicious mind says is what it was intended to do, the Obamas being not so much able to be blackmailed) going into office. Not that that excuses his allowing People With Agendas to make his cabinet picks.
Mary Bennett
I do remember the timing . . .
of the financial crisis. Until the crisis McCain-Palin were slowly rising in the polls. I have no idea whether they would have caught up.But the financial crisis was blamed on Republicans and support for McCain plummeted.
Remember that the financial sector gave more money to Obama than either Hillary Clinton or McCain. The Justice Department didn't need the support of anyone to prosecute specific financial leaders for fraud. Even Bush did it during the S & L crisis. Obama was in the tank before he was elected to the senate, probably well before.
Living in Florida
many of us saw the crisis coming as much as two years earlier. The real estate market was out of control in many places in Florida and long time residents knew it was a house of cards that could not stand.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
Thanks, RA! I totally on board with
moving beyond thinking that Bernie will be drafted for a third party. (See my comment regarding his statement to MTP earlier today.) I've been dumbstruck that so many of his former staffers seemed to believe that he would consider 'going third Party.' Hopefully, his words to Chuck Todd, will put this notion to rest, once and for all.
I will say, though, as long as he advocates for his new proposal for a UMP, or Universal Medicare Program, his UMP will come up in health care discussions.
When we get back, I'm going to try to summarize all the plans--'4' that I know of, minus Conyers' bill--that Dem lawmakers have presented recently, in order to compare them to what an "Improved and Expanded Traditional Medicare Program" would look like.
What bothers me is that we already have a sound and tried and true structure in place. Why not amend the program under Title XVIII of the Social Security Act to eliminate for-profit medical spending, expand the coverage to all Americans, eliminate OOP costs, and add other medical services (dental, etc.)?
That would be the simplest and most direct solution. And, one that I believe is worth fighting for.
[Edited: Deleted double quotation marks.]
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit, and therefore, to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
SOSD - A volunteer-run organisation dedicated to the welfare of Singapore’s street dogs. We rescue, rehabilitate, and rehome strays to give them a second chance.
On Twitter - SOSD Singapore@SOSDsg
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
@Unabashed Liberal
If Bernie was going to run as an Indie party Presidential challenger, he could only announce at the last minute to avoid being (at best) shut down this early, one way or another. He'd certainly lose all ability to reach corporate-media restricted people with his 'unicorn nonsense' that the wealthiest country in the world could possibly afford to do anything for itself or for its drained-for-those-having-most Non-Billionaire American people.
But what he's doing strikes me as basic Resistance tactics in an occupied country, while walking a tightrope over a mine-field he's trying to help disarm, if the people intended to be the victims would only join the work.
Personally, I suspect that the American public working to replace the Dem party both from within and without means increased survival chances. There needs to be more than one potential option, in any event. Assuming that electoral integrity could somehow be achieved...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Give up on politics
as you've been saying for a long time Al. The corporate coup is complete. Time to head for shelter. Find a nice community to ride out the coming collapse (hopefully one with a garden).
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Not yet, we got some justice to hand out.
The fuckers doing these crimes have to come down.
Just make sure
you get the right malefactors. Here's a hint: beautiful doesn't equal virtuous. Rich doesn't equal good or decent. The gift of gab doesn't equal wise nor even intelligent.
Another hint: keep a look out for good people doing good work, in other words, productive people, because such people, never mind their manners, appearance, peccadillos or political opinions or religion, are the foundation of civilization.
Mary Bennett
Rule of thumb
Any fucker wearing a suit and tie is NOT our friend.
Neither Russia nor China is our enemy.
Neither Iran nor Venezuela are threatening America.
Cuba is a dead horse, stop beating it.
Neither is
any gorgeous dame with an orthodontic smile, silicon boobs and a 6 figure salary from lamestream media.
Jealous, you say? Damn right. I raised two bright, capable young women who, while they are attractive, don't necessarily look they graduated from modeling school. So, yeah, I resent seeing the host of dimwit lookers on the tube. Ever notice how the male member of an on air team is fully suited up while the female member seems to be wearing as little as possible for a daytime gig? Reminds me of those French paintings of fully clothed men having al fresco luncheons with their naked courtesans.
Mary Bennett
Got a couple hours ?
Here's some video about, and from, the conference.
Nick Brana on RT, Sept. 8.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxM1U82Xubs width:500 height:300]
The main event. This panel was livestreamed last Saturday, Nick Brana, Cornel West and Kshama Sawant moderated by Jimmy Dore, 2 hours.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do6WwEvX9HQ width:500 height:300]
Jordan Chariton wraps it up.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bltYQ7z9HQ width:500 height:300]
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Thanks. I see the upper middle class to upper class white
young people are well represented on RT. Hilarious. And, and very disconcerting. I sense something wrong. So called left progressive activism has gone Hollywood.
Thanks for the vids.
@Big Al Demographic analysis no
Demographic analysis no longer impresses me as a useful measure of whether or not someone is politically trustworthy. A rich kid who hasn't worked to promote the oligarchy's filthy plan is just as potentially acceptable as a poor kid, or a bourgeois kid.
I look first at deeds, second at funding, third at words. Even the child of a billionaire gets one chance with me.
After watching some individual working-class Black people swallow the Russia koolaid and march behind Hillary like she's Fannie Lou Hamer, I'm done with demographics as moral destiny.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
OK. I'm not.
They're there for a reason, that's how it works in this world. I don't believe a valid revolution can be led by predominately upper class, elite college educated white kids, particularly those who make careers out of it. Sure, there are exceptions, but sorry, I'm not buying it when it comes to that.
Big centennial coming up November 9.
It's the 100th anniversary of the Bolshevik revolution.
Is that your model ?
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Don't really have a model.
I don't believe it has to be violent but taking down capitalism is in effect a class war.
@Big Al I'm not seeing many
I'm not seeing many people out there who are qualified to lead a bonafide revolution, no matter what their class origins. Most people don't seem qualified to lead a coffee klatch. And I rarely say anything shitty about the people.
The fact is, I see this incapacity as a symptom of a successful forty-year cultural and economic blitzkrieg, and not entirely the people's fault. It's remarkable what destroying the educational system and the press will get you. It's also remarkable what driving the wage scale into an abyss will get you. Between the assault on time and the two-pronged assault on the people's minds, it's amazing people are as clear-headed in their assessment of things as they are.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
There are capable people out there,
but they don't get the chance, they don't get on TV with RT because of their daddy or are able to go to William and Mary like Nick Brana then become professional political animals who perpetuate the idea of working within the "system".
A true revolution won't happen with those who are most affected by the changes, with their gravy trains dried up, it's got to come from the ground up, from the people who are being most affected now by the inequality.
It's going to take a fucking miracle at this point.
@Big Al The media
The media blackout does suck; I used to say that if somebody gave me 2 billion dollars in earned media, like they did Trump, I could convince the American people that socialism is the best philosophy ever.
However, being politically connected as Brana is won't help anybody start a revolution. Quite the opposite.
And even media coverage is a double-edged sword. If people had time, energy, morale, connections with each other, clear minds and good health, they could probably do a lot. Not to have a military revolution, because the tech imbalance makes that nothing but suicide; nothing like that will happen unless people a lot higher up than Nick Brana want it to. Julian Assange and Bill Binney, and their counterparts still within the military industrial complex, are far more likely to lead an actual revolution of that sort than anybody else. But the people could stage an opt-out, drop-out kind of revolution--if we had but world enough, and time.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal
We certainly haven't heard from Alex Occana in long time, unless (as I've been hoping) I've merely unfortunately missed his more recent posts. Does anyone know if he's OK? He provided a voice of reasoning experience in successful non-violent revolution that I very much miss... we need many more people like him... and we need to listen to such personally informed advice and take it to heart.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@Ellen North I have been
I have been thinking about him too.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The Libertarian Party shouldn't count as a third party.
They've had their hands up the asses of the donkey and the elephant for nearly 40 years because they couldn't win elections on their own. They didn't want to put in the work to become a viable alternative so they decided to use think tanks and corporate donors to buy elections instead. It's worked out a little too well for them.
Modern education is little more than toeing the line for the capitalist pigs.
Guerrilla Liberalism won't liberate the US or the world from the iron fist of capital.
I am beginning to think
the only way to survive at all is to invest in our local communities. Work with your neighbors and those who live near you to create a mutual caring and support system. It may be all we have left. While not the answer to everything, the Transition Movement seemed to offer the best opportunity for doing so.
Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy
@gulfgal98 I'm with you, and I will
I'm with you, and I will check that link out!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Except if we don't stop "them",
they're going to keep on killing and might just kill us all. We can hunker up all we want, but they aren't going to leave us alone.
The Answer is simple...
The WSWS have it right, instead of trying to win a fight against the powerful by fighting within their system, it is time to fully come to terms with these brutally honest facts;
1)The powerful are Sociopaths, as such they do not feel shame or empathy,
2) The powerful do not follow the rules/laws of our society and as such the rules/laws are used as a tool to imprison and punish the 99%
3) Capitalism is a Sociopathic economic system. It's morals, not human nature's, as sociopaths like to say, is selfishness, greediness, and brutality.
4) The Corporate elite through their use of the political right have supplemented and destroyed every political and corporate power apparatus of the left. Unions are Dead, Big Business has taken over Big Government, etc.
5) The elite's power lie in the macro, our power lie in local.
6)electoral politics has proven itself to be a sham designed to occupy our attention away from coming together to solve our problems.
7) Our political and economic systems are fictions, not immutable facts, that can and must change.
With Capitalism cannibalising itself and the barbarism of the 1% laid bare, now is the best time to lead the American people to a solution that will work both in the short term and long term.
What is the solution? Cooperative Democracy
What is a Cooperative Democracy?
A Cooperative Democracy uses Cooperatives as the backbone to infiltrate our current system thus creating a power structure for the 99% that all at the same time educates the populace and destroys the power structures of the elite.
What are the steps to win?
We go around the country, like Professor Richard Wolff is doing, and educate the populace on the problem we are facing (capitalism and the elite) and the solution to that problem and how to set that solution up (cooperatives).
We then setup as many cooperatives up at the same time so that the elite have too many battles to fight simultaneously and that the people have help in the form of bank cooperatives, food based cooperatives (farms, restaurants, food markets), school cooperatives, telecommunication cooperatives, law cooperatives etc.
Setting up cooperatives this way also has the intended consequence of showing the people that they do not need their corrupt leaders/ politicians nor do they need their "owners" any more. The middle men will be without a job.
No the fight will not be easy, it is the power and lively hood of the elite that they are fighting for, but we are fighting for our very lives and the lives of our children and grandchildren. That is why we must fight and must win. It is time to get rid of the Sociopaths and take back the country and the world for the just, for the caring, and for the majority!
Sorry, but can't help it, that is being
brutallyhonest. Thanks for this comment, excellent. This is one of the many things we need to do to truly change society and how we're governed.
The issue is organization, getting people off this electoral politics "sham" and focused on making real change.
Hence my name :)
Thank you it means a lot. I have put off posting many essays because they get out of hand with all of the necessary information needed in each and my desire for/ understanding the importance of brevity for people to learn the information within.
@BrutallyHonest
One of the coolest things (there are quite a number, lol) about this site is that virtually everyone here can actually follow a train of thought and appreciate necessary background and detail in an essay.
Please, do publish here whatever you feel may be of interest!
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
@BrutallyHonest Excellent comment. Can I
Excellent comment. Can I quote you in an upcoming essay I'm writing? This is good stuff.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Yes you may
Yes you may and I would appreciate it. This past year I truly have delved into, and realized, how large our problems are and so all of my essays have been stoped prematurely because of how much information truly is needed to communicate the issues and how we need to tackle them.
I plan on creating a youtube video series self titled "Brutally Honest" so that way I can visually tackle the problems in an informative way.
So far Richard Wolff has been the best at pushing forward on a more invested, educated, and caring populace.
@BrutallyHonest
Brilliant! Crowd-funding co-op start-ups, I suppose?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Today on Meet The Press, Bernie says 'no' to
third party aspirations.
Here's the link to the transcript:
Regarding the proposal for a UMP, or a Universal Medicare Program which was proposed earlier this week, I've already heard two Dems (today) claiming on the Sunday political programs that the UMP proposal was simply improving, then expanding, or 'opening up' to all citizens the current Medicare program. It is not, as the UMP Executive Summary made plain.
Mollie
“I believe in the redemptive powers of a dog’s love. It is in recognition of each dog’s potential to lift the human spirit, and therefore, to change society for the better, that I fight to make sure every street dog has its day.”
--Stasha Wong, Secretary, Save Our Street Dogs (SOSD)
SOSD - A volunteer-run organization dedicated to the welfare of Singapore’s street dogs. We rescue, rehabilitate, and rehome strays to give them a second chance.
On Twitter - SOSD Singapore@SOSDsg
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
@Unabashed Liberal
'... So you'll become a member of the Democratic Party when you think it's finally open enough for Independents? ...'
Yes, indeed, when pigs drop the lipstick and fly gracefully to nest in the mighty branches of oak trees, I will assuredly become one of them. I have no problem promising that at all!
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
As I said in my own comments on this gathering --
the main problem with it is that they had only one of them. I saw a livestream on it in Facebook, but that was it -- and when I tried to use the livestream, it kept having outages.
So there was a meeting of conscious people, and nobody knows a lot more about it. The sectarians will tell us all. Right?
Oh and about this sore-thumb dismissal of the event:
I'm a little unclear on how the groups who actually met in DC this month "represent sections of the upper middle class." How is it that Kshama Sawant and Cornel West represent sections of the upper middle class? It's easier, on the other hand, to get a bead on the organization being represented by this quote. The whole idea of being a Trotskyist, and the WSWS, which ran this paragraph, is run by Trotskyists, is that we can somehow match up political parties and political ideas to social classes in an approximate one-to-one fit, and that thusly a political party can be had which will be the "genuine" representative of the "proletariat." You know, like the Communist Party of the Soviet Union once claimed to be such a thing.
Unfortunately, however, there isn't even a one-to-one fit between the proletariat and the designated role of the proletariat in the writings of Marx and Engels. Reality is complex, Trot ideology is simple. The proletariat which made its appearance in the Marx-Engels Collected Works was not so much the physically-existing proletariat of the 19th century as it was a myth spread about the proletariat, that it was both the main target of oppression and the potential liberator of humankind, followed up with Marx's and Engels' hopes that the physically-existing proletariat would someday live up to the myth they'd constructed. There was nothing wrong with M & E's method as long as they were honest about what they were doing. The Trotskyists, however, spend their time arguing that their myth is the only way through, which looks to me like a cul-de-sac rather than a revolution.
The real question at hand is one of whether or not a myth (or fantasy or utopian dream) can be constructed that will provide a way through, that will provide a real alternative to capitalist life as it currently heads down the drain. Bernie Sanders, in this regard, is a Democratic Party sectarian -- it's his myth (we win as Democrats) or nothing at all for him. More "people's convergences" might help create more myths, more fantasies, more utopian dreams which might actually produce something to create a positive change in physical realities, rather than being merely self-referential.
"The most revolutionary thing one can do is always to proclaim loudly what is happening." -- Rosa Luxemburg
@Cassiodorus The whole idea of being
The whole idea of being a Trotskyist, and the WSWS, which ran this paragraph, is run by Trotskyists, is that we can somehow match up political parties and political ideas to social classes in an approximate one-to-one fit, and that thusly a political party can be had which will be the "genuine" representative of the "proletariat." You know, like the Communist Party of the Soviet Union once claimed to be such a thing.
This is my problem with their critique as well.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
A big problem is that,
when it comes to many "social issues", the American working class is divided fairly evenly between those who lean right and those who lean left. The mega-bankers, war profiteers, and major oligarchs who basically rule both official Parties don't particularly care about social issues. Whether or not abortion is legal, how many rights LGBTQs have, and so on, these matters are of little import to the forces that actually rule the nation. They are however, very useful in keeping the working class preoccupied and divided against itself, while the Big Players busy themselves with raking in the lions' share of the nation's wealth.
I see no point in trying to build a Third Party that is exclusively Leftist. Firstly, because it wouldn't work. There are simply not enough committed Leftists in the USA to overcome both the Center and the Right. Secondly, because by alienating nearly all social conservatives, a stringently Leftist Third Party would eliminate any hope of forming an effective, supra-partisan, anti-war coalition.
On many of the most crucial issues, especially those concerning US imperialism, militarism, National Security State overreach, faux-globalism, but also universal health care and several other key issues, the working-class Right (or a very large portion of it) and the working-class Left are seeing pretty much eye-to-eye. I think it would be useful to build on these agreements, and try not to exacerbate the relatively less important points of discord. Soros and his fellow-globalists want more discord.
I think we should be trying to break the Duopoly's stranglehold on the US electorate, by exposing and challenging its collusion with the MIC, before we try to to establish an ideologically consistent opposing force. To do this we would need, and might be able to get, the help of a great many socially conservative, working-class allies, and to at least temporarily work with them to defeat a common enemy.
native