The Problem With CTH's "Bend the Knee" Comment

is not that Will Menaker told the Clintonites they had to "bend the knee." It's the idea that we could ever work with those people again. Those people being the ones who *run* the neoliberal side of the party: politicians, pundits and their donors/employers. The people who did this:

nevada_2.jpg

and then this:

Which even Snopes said was FALSE.
http://www.snopes.com/did-sanders-supporters-throw-chairs-at-nevada-demo...

This is far from all they did:

http://observer.com/2016/12/ny-primary-voter-purge-still-under-investiga...

In fact, that too is far from all they did, but I'm not going to waste time creating a comprehensive list of their intolerable acts.

The current rank and file on the Clinton side are the people who either don't know about these things, or don't want to know about them, or are fine with this behavior because OMG TRUMP!!!

So here's what I think of the possibility of uniting with any of these people:

Those with power (donors, media figures, politicians on the Clinton/Bush side): When Hell freezes over.

Those without power:

The rank-and-file on the Clinton side can join us if they want, once we've created something worth joining, but not in leadership positions.

Thus, my real problem with Chapo Trap House and its co-host's "bend the knee" statement is that I don't see why we should bother even having the discussion he's having. Why is he talking to those people? What is the point of talking to them? The leaders are beyond corrupt--irredeemably corrupt--and as for the rank-and-file, while it includes some people I hold dear and even love, it's an inescapable fact that these are people who believe the Russia narrative, with all that implies. It's also quite clear that they aren't going to create anything worth our time, because their assumptions are those of the establishment.

So there's nothing to be said about those with power on Clinton's side except that they are the problem. There's nothing to be said about rank-and-file Clintonites except that, while they might at some later point be allowed to join our game, they don't get to come over to our side of the playground and run our game. Or end it. That's actually an important thing to say, but I don't think that's what he's saying.

Here's what I would say to the rank-and-file Clinton supporters:

If and when I and my people create something worth working in, we'll let you know. At that point, if you want to "unite," you can come over and join our efforts. But if you do, you're going to hear a lot of things you don't like about your leaders and their assumptions. Be prepared for that, cause it ain't gonna change.

N.B. I gotta run to the store, but I'll be back and hopefully be able to check in on y'all's comments after.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

people who use the thug meme on me.

Because I'm not a fucking idiot.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

chuckvw's picture

Resist!™ being a case in point...

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You should only listen to both sides when one side isn't totally full of shit. -Jim Jefferies

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@chuckvw I like your sig. A lot.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

chuckvw's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal from the end of this segment on global warming from his great show on the comedy channel:
Screw it. NO time to figure out how to embed. Here's the link!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8I3reckfQ&index=10&list=PLD7nPL1U-R5q2...

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You should only listen to both sides when one side isn't totally full of shit. -Jim Jefferies

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@chuckvw And you're right about trusting them. Not only Resist, but Indivisible, Justice Democrats, Brand New Congress, and even Draft Bernie.

15 months ago, I'd have leaped at the chance to draft Bernie to the leadership of a new political party. No more.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal and did mention misogyny over and over again for a while, confessed to me the other day that she now naturally views those groups with suspicion. She's heard so much from me, probably way too much, but I did get through to her natural skeptical side. The other one is starting to see it too. Of course I remind them, but it's sinking in. That made my day, although it sucked to tell her that no, you cannot trust any of them, period. They aren't going to save us, they merely want to use us. There is no savior.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@gjohnsit Haven't watched it yet, but that guy on the right has an expression that mirrors entirely my feelings on this matter. FFS.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alligator Ed's picture

@gjohnsit until the last 90 seconds. Then, despite his denials, he adopts the Clintonite -snowflake line that establishment Dems can still find common ground with Progressives (which in reality amounts to being willingly coopted into that corrupt world view). Total, utter, all-encompassing, complete horse excrement. Sam Seder has gone the way of David Packman which is the way of Cenk Uyghur: drifting, willingly or not, to the detested Clinton "center".

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Alligator Ed Common ground? They bombed the common ground.

What I see when I look at American political culture:

the_blitz.jpg

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Alligator Ed's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal Can anyone reasonably force a non-violent way to rid our disease (corruption) infested government. The only cure--if I may make an analogy--is to burn the mattress containing the bedbugs and get a waterbed (no bugs allowed).

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If we purge them and then come back is that uniting? They can't be trusted. Obama proved that. I don't know if there is a way to stop Armageddon.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@dkmich @dkmich Well, not if they're not there. But you'd have to purge all of them, which would include the ones who aren't immediately visible. You'd have to sever the connections to all the people in the background (donors, CIA, etc.)

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Is that people accept the narrative that a third party can't succeed. Personally, I think the only reason this would be true is the circular logic that keeps people voting for the duolopy because they don't want to "throw away" their vote on a third party. I agree, there's a lot of work to go with a third party, any third party being successful, but I think all the reasons you mentioned, and more, should be adequate for anyone paying attention to realize the Dems have no interest of doing anything other than being the Junior Varsity Republicans.

I also think they're trying to play cool, but the Democrats are pretty afraid of the idea of a credible left third party. For instance, they have to know if they didn't have Sanders out there trying to "unify", or what the hell ever he's supposed to be doing, and he was actually pushing an independent party, they'd be completely screwed. As intentionally thick as they can be about so much else, they begrudgingly act like they realize this.

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Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.

Bisbonian's picture

@Dr. John Carpenter . Starting a second one would be fine with me.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Bisbonian One million and one thumbs up.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Bisbonian

I don't really want to start a third party, Starting a second one would be fine with me.

Oh, you mean rather than Eric the Half-a-Party, affectionately known as the Democrats?

[video:https://youtu.be/MlrsqGal64w]

Wink

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides Is this wretched demi-bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie? NO!
It's Eric the half-a-bee!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

snoopydawg's picture

when Ross Perot stole too many votes from Clinton and Bush and made the possible outcome more uncertain. This was the last time that the league of women voters were in charge of the debates.
They didn't want to accept the new rules that 3rd party candidates couldn't participate in the debates unless they had a certain percentage of votes during the primaries.
Jill Stein and her VP choice were arrested when they tried to be involved in the debates between Obama and McCain.
(Off topic, but McCain is returning to congress tomorrow to vote on the health care bill. The vote tomorrow is for moving the legislation forward. What is wrong with this picture? A person who recently found out that he has brain cancer and limited time to live is going to vote on the possibility of revoking people's health insurance, while this person has the opportunity to afford any health care treatment, but wants to take it away from the 400,000 people in his state? This is wrong on so many levels!)
If Bernie had gone to the Green Party to run for president, he had a great chance of winning. The missed opportunity for Bernie becoming president is something that is going to haunt America for years and years if not many decades

How big a chance would he have had to stop and try to fix the effects of climate change? Or income inequality? Or one of the many issues that he ran on?
Would he have turned out to be another Obama type president? We will never know. We do know what would have happened if Hillary had won. I think that one of the few things she wouldn't have done is appoint the type of people to her cabinet positions like the ones who Trump appointed.
Ole Warren wouldn't have had to make the decision to vote to appoint Carson as head of HUD because Trump might have appointed some one who would've been worse than Carson. This is a pretty stupid reason for voting for ole Ben who has no experience on running a billion dollar agency that helps poor, elderly and disabled people find affordable housing.
The reason why this issue is so important to me is because I'm in all 3 of those groups. Okay, I might not be very elderly, but I'm working towards it:)
The republicans and Trump want to gut those programs in order for rich people to be able to keep more of their money. Just how many millions does it take to live comfortably? Hell, I would settle for one million. Or half a million, or............
The one thing I would do if I had that type of money would be to share it with people who are less fortunate than I am.

@Dr. John Carpenter

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

chuckvw's picture

@snoopydawg A person receiving platinum level health care on the taxpayer dime voting to cut off millions of taxpayers from their minimal access to health care. Just another example of this guy's worthlessness as a human being.

Maybe he'll surprise us and recuse himself. Ha. Ha. Ha.

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You should only listen to both sides when one side isn't totally full of shit. -Jim Jefferies

Steven D's picture

signifying nothing.

This is why the Dems will lose and lose big in 2018. They have nothing to offer millions of desperate, struggling people. Nothing.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

SparkyGump's picture

a fourth would be even better. This corporate duopoly on perpetuates the suck. America can do much better than this.

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The real SparkyGump has passed. It was an honor being your human.

@SparkyGump

Parties. The Green Party is a third party. So is the Justice Party. Etc.

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I'd never heard of Chapo Whatever. So I listened to parts of several segments. My old fart take: very smart, funny and well educated guys and lady talking about some politics and a lot of stuff, most of which (movies, net shows) are of zero interest to me. What is interesting is the support they've garnered and the vicious backlash which tells me they far more influential (dangerous to the establishment) than I'd ever expect. So good on them!

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Big Al's picture

@GusBecause in the pews. Which makes sense, political parties are kind of like religion.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Big Al @Big Al Not having listened to them, or even known about them till this comment made the airwaves, I have no idea whether I should generalize the assumptions of that one comment made by that one co-host to everyone associated with the show. So I have no way of knowing whether Chapo Trap House is one more recruitment tactic. It doesn't smell like that on first take, but it certainly could be. I'm holding back on making a conclusion about CTH until I see more of them.

After all, there are people here who make comments that sound like they want to work with the Democrats, or even say so straight out, and caucus99percent.com is not a recruitment tool for the Democratic party. Having been involved with it since its inception, and knowing all those involved, I can guarantee that.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

thanatokephaloides's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

After all, there are people here who make comments that sound like they want to work with the Democrats, or even say so straight out, and caucus99percent.com is not a recruitment tool for the Democratic party. Having been involved with it since its inception, and knowing all those involved, I can guarantee that.

Don't forget that old habits die hard. Many of those same folks here on c99 remember the Dems as they were before the Clintonian seizure of the Party made it into "Eric the Half a (Republican) Party" they are today. They also have yet to fully grasp how systemic the corruption sown by the Clintons and their ilk really is. But as long as they keep reading here and talking to the rest of us, they'll learn -- and, hopefully, act accordingly.

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"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@thanatokephaloides Oh, I'm not worried about it. I only meant that I'm not going to ready to judge whether Chapo Trap House is a recruitment tool for the Dems based on that one comment. Anybody could come here, find a comment, and think WE were a recruitment tool for the Dems! It wouldn't be true.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Big Al's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal is a nice way to prevent a fucking revolution isn't it? "Hey, you go fight for single payer with them, and you go fight for a higher minimum wage with them, and you go protest the Afghanistan war with them, and you go save the fucking whales."
Meanwhile, leave the oligarchy and the duopoly alone dammit.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Big Al OK, clearly you know a lot more about Chapo Trap House than I do. I know nothing about them except this one comment, which is all this essay is about. I'm responding to one thing one of the co-hosts said. I've got nothing to say about the show as a whole, except that it is a little weird that it makes so much money. That warrants investigation into their enterprise, but not judgement, at least not yet and not from me.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Big Al's picture

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal is a nice way to prevent a fucking revolution isn't it? "Hey, you go fight for single payer with them, and you go fight for a higher minimum wage with them, and you go protest the Afghanistan war with them, and you go save the fucking whales."
Meanwhile, leave the oligarchy and the duopoly alone dammit.

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@Big Al @Big Al

If we keep doing what we have been doing, things will never change--at least, not for the better.

The active left is not enough to get anything done. I think the best we can hope for right now, and until someone comes up with a better idea, is bipartisan or, better yet, nonpartisan coalitions working against the olligarchy around one or more issues.

Also, a lot depends on how one defines "fight." And it's not either or. One can fight around an issue, however one defines fight, AND do something else.

Let's be real: Let's change everything bad in the world and everything bad about human nature, or at least in the US, is a wonderful goal. Since 2003, when I started on a message board, I think I've read millions of posts proposing many grand goals. However, I've yet to see something that seems to have a practical chance in hell of working. Or one that even seems to have been thought out from Step 1 forward. If I had, I would have been all over it in a New York nanosecond.

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Big Al's picture

@HenryAWallace I'm for taking down the power structure. That won't be done by trying to get single payer or more for minimum wage. That's the thing, the reason why we're taking one step forward, if that, and two steps back, is because they own the joint and all we're asking for is some fucking pudding.

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@Big Al

Maybe that is my fault. Maybe I am not being as outspoken as I think I am.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@HenryAWallace It's fighting them, but not fighting them very well. It's a fight by people who believe they're still living in a republic and should be advocating on issues to make the country better, like good citizens--when in fact we no longer have influence over policy, because we don't live in a republic. Or any other kind of society where the little guy has a say.

I know I don't need to tell you this, but work on any issue for long enough and (if you really are sincere and not, for instance, a big Washington NGO that cares more about access than anything else) you will end up working on corruption. Because, no matter what your wheelhouse is, or what your major area of concern is, you will end up discovering that you can get nowhere, because of corruption.

Exceptions to this rule do exist, but they are very few. LGBT rights are one exception, because they don't cost the oligarchy money or try to reduce or redistribute its power (in its heart of hearts, the oligarchy doesn't give a shit who we sleep with or what gender we are--it keeps the ugliness going mainly so it can have a never-ending source of wedge issues). Immigration is, to some extent, another exception because the powers that be are divided on that issue--some of them are wall-builders, probably the ones making money off weapons and security, and some of them want a flood of immigrants to come here, including undocumented ones, so they can bully them and pay them extremely low wages.

So Al has a point in that the division into issue areas is a tactic long past its sell-by date.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal

is an oligarchy saying "Let's you and him fight." When we and they fight the oligarchy together we might get someplace. Not everyplace. But someplace.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@GusBecause Neither had I, Gus. I know some podcasts, but somehow not that one.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Big Al's picture

I guess than I'd decide whether they could be worked with, whoever they are. Those willing to vote for Clinton or support Clinton, that's like working with warmongers idiots. As for Bernie supporters, that's like working with the democratic party.
This is all getting weird now. Maybe it's the time period, the situation, I don't know. But few from the political system left seems to have any idea what they really want other than more and better politicians.

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@Big Al They want donations and lobbyist jobs for their nephews and they are not afraid to give insider trade info to get them.
Or something like that.
I hope every one of the fuckers have to stand in line at a food bank one day and see what poor people have to eat, and the humiliation they go through to just fucking EAT.

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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@on the cusp In Chiapas, during the revolution in the 90s, one of the plantation owners was overthrown. The workers made him sleep where they slept and eat what they ate and (I think) do the work they did.

He complained to Amnesty International that he was being tortured.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

@on the cusp

and publicity. Not for neoliberals and not for people like us. It all depends upon how and for what donations are used.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Big Al What they're working on is a messaging framework that will allow them to continue with the same policies and even many of the same political leaders, while making a good enough show at the polls to warrant the many millions of dollars the very rich pour down them.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

@Big Al Anyway, my main thing is that, to quote one of my favorite authors, I won't join them. I might let them join me, if I ever create anything worth working on.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Thus, my real problem with Chapo Trap House and its co-host's "bend the knee" statement is that I don't see why we should bother even having the discussion he's having. Why is he talking to those people? What is the point of talking to them? The leaders are beyond corrupt--irredeemably corrupt--and as for the rank-and-file, while it includes some people I hold dear and even love, it's an inescapable fact that these are people who believe the Russia narrative, with all that implies. It's also quite clear that they aren't going to create anything worth our time, because their assumptions are those of the establishment.

Now that they are out of power, all Dem-enders can offer their rich patrons is a stifling of Progressive candidates and policies.

It's truly the only reason they exist right now, which is why since the Bernie uprising they've acted like prison guards on lock-down.

There's no talking to people with this mentality. There's no finding common ground with those whose only agenda is to cage you.

Hillary says single payer will 'never happen'. Gephart says 'over my dead body'.

OK then. So what's there to talk about?

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

@Not Henry Kissinger
Gephart's (political) dead body is as good a place to start as any.

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