An Open Letter to Daily Kos Admin...

I'm hesitant to publish this.

On the one hand, although the genesis of C99 is at DKos and many or most of us found our way here from there, if C99 becomes just another in a dreary series of places to vent about the foibles and mismanagement of DKos, Caucus99 can never succeed... or at any rate, never succeed in an interesting and politically valuable way.

On the other hand, it is only fucking yesterday we were piously instructed to tiptoe through the Hillary eggshells, so maybe just a bit more venting will be therapeutic. So...

An Open Letter to DKos Admin

Never say never I suppose, but it's hard to imagine what could draw me back to DKos now. Hope to see a few of you around Caucus99 from time to time. You'll be welcome.

Other than the obvious finger-on-the-scale bias of the March 15 deadline, yesterday's diary was remarkably clever and subtle by Markos' standards. It all seems so reasonable and inoffensive, little more really than a restatement of DKos first principles. Who can object to a prohibition on the citation of rightwing sources or the recital of rightwing anti-Clinton tropes? As always though, the devil is in the details. I think Kos' failure to define these terms in any useful way is no accident. We can all agree I hope that the uncritical use of Infowars or the Weekly Standard is out of bounds. What about citation of the Wall Street Journal though, a "respectable" but FAR more influential and dangerous rightwing rag? Brooklynbadboy and others gleefully weaponized the WSJ's bizarre, counterfactual, deliberately misleading hit-piece on the alleged cost of Sanders' health plan, to widespread accolades from the DKos Clintonistas. Is that still "acceptable" discourse? What about the use of the Washington Post, still coasting on its "liberal" reputation, despite its longstanding neocon slant? OK to use without caveats?

Or consider the notion of "rightwing tropes." A ban on the regurgitation of conservative attacks from the Bill Clinton presidency--Whitewater, Vince Foster and all the rest--is one thing. I see no way for a progressive to use that crap, nor any reason why we would even want to try. No one IS reciting that stuff though, other than an occasional, soon-banned troll, so warning against it is, while harmless, also pointless and redundant. I have no problem at all adding Benghazi to that list of attacks that ARE rightwing, and Benghazi IS sometimes used by "respectable" Kossacks, though not very often that I've seen. Prohibiting Benghazi attacks is fine as far as I'm concerned.

What about Clinton's emails though? It's one thing to argue that apparently no laws were broken, and that in any case the chances that Clinton or her close aides will be indicted before November are very small (although I'll note in passing that very small ≠ zero.) It doesn't follow though that any discussion of the emails or the private server is necessarily inappropriate on a Democratic site. My wife is a long-time, fairly high-level employee of the Federal EPA (she's in Flint as I write this) and no Clinton-basher. She is absolutely appalled at Clinton's use of a private server to conduct State Department business. In her well-informed view, this crossed bright and well-understood ethical boundaries; the greenest entry-level Fed knows better than to do something like this. Is it out of bounds on DKos to honestly discuss the fact that this sort of out-of-touch arrogance reflects poorly on Clinton's chances in the general election--even against Trump--and gives one profound worry as well about her conduct in office, especially regarding the use of military force, if she IS elected President?

Or consider the FBI investigation into the emails. It's one thing to insist that headlines screaming "Indictments Near!" or the like have no place on DKos or any site that hopes to be taken seriously. That's fine, and if it means that some users will have to bite their tongue, I don't care all that much. It hardly follows though that the investigation doesn't matter or shouldn't be talked about at all. My brother is a good "conventional" liberal and will vote for any Democrat over any Republican, but he's far too busy working two jobs and raising a family to have the leisure to give much thought to politics. He solidly supports Bernie, without knowing all that much about his policy proposals. What has filtered into his distracted perception is that there's just so much scandal surrounding both Clintons; he doesn't really suppose Hillary is "guilty" of breaking the law, but he fears she'll be a dangerously weakened candidate in November. As I've said before on DKos, it's Politics 101: Perception IS Reality. If my brother sees Hillary surrounded by scandal, having in no way sought out that information, so will a lot of other voters. In Kos' world, is it too defeatist even to discuss that?

Is demanding speech transcripts a trope used only by a fringe of Clinton-haters? If so, the New York Times is on that same fringe. Is any mention at all of Clinton's ties with Wall Street and the mega-banks an unacceptable guilt-by-association slur, as her ardent supporters would have it? Is any suggestion that her enormous payments for brief speeches might be an attempt to purchase access really a bannable CT, even though most of us would denounce those same payments, made to a Republican?

The apparent ban on the use of certain words--warmonger, neocon, neoliberal--in reference to Clinton is especially silly. No question, these terms and others like them are used too casually and too often, frequently by people with no real understanding of their meanings. They all are useful terms with actual definitions though, and they all can be applied to Clinton without being ridiculous. Why should those of us able to use such terms properly be dumbed-down to the level of those who throw them around as empty epithets?

Etc...

I don't think Markos' failure to spell out any of this is casual or an accident. I think it's a carefully-crafted policy. I think he's consciously giving Clintonistas the tools to shut down debate, even debate that seems permissible within the new dicta. It goes back to the failure of Community Moderation. These rules might not be quite as objectionable or completely impossible to work within, IF misinterpretations of them, deliberately or otherwise, were policed as aggressively and consistently as were violations. I think we all know how unlikely that is.

Solidarity,

Phil

Tags: 
Share
up
0 users have voted.

Comments

PhilJD's picture

Heh. 518 members and fucking counting.

up
0 users have voted.

Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

Anyone warned not to use right wing attacks on Bernie. Which are 90% of the attacks.

up
0 users have voted.
Big Al's picture

The right wing is largely just as ignorant and accepting of U.S. imperialism as the majority of Democrats, 80% of who approve of Obama's job performance, i.e., his war crimes.
The majority of those calling Clinton a war criminal are from the radical left.
Kos knows that, calling it right wing republican attacks is purposely obfuscating the true source to rid themselves of any radicalness at that blog and in the Democratic party. They don't want it.
The radical left is not wanted in the Democratic party.

Sanders is (rightly) criticized by the radical left for his support of U.S. imperialism and U.S. nationalism. HIs is a "kinder and gentler" imperialism, but his support of Obama's wars in Iraq, Syria, and Libya, as well as Saudi Arabia's in Yemen needs to be understood and called out, regardless his "progressivism" on economic issues.

up
0 users have voted.
Australian2's picture

The Clintons are Democratic royalty, despite their constant betrayals of longstanding Democratic principles.

And all know that a different standard applies to the royals' courtiers than to common folk.

up
0 users have voted.

Self-exiled from DKos, ahead of the arrival of the Clinton Thought Police.

Markos' transition from gatecrasher to gate-polisher is now complete.

At this rate we'll need another server by next week.

up
0 users have voted.

will be very costly.

up
0 users have voted.

I haven't seen a link to donate to this site yet. I would suggest putting one up so we can all help out with the next server upgrade. Biggrin

up
0 users have voted.

after things settle down a bit. Most of my attention is going to vetting new registrations right now.

up
0 users have voted.
Jazzenterprises's picture

Excellent suggestion.

up
0 users have voted.

Progressive to the bone.

joe shikspack's picture

we have one. we keep it in an hermetically-sealed cask guarded by an 800-pound attack aardvark.

it's a verr nice.

we bring it out on special occasions. Smile

up
0 users have voted.
thanatokephaloides's picture

we have one. we keep it in an hermetically-sealed cask guarded by an 800-pound attack aardvark.

it's a verr nice.

No, no, no, sillikins! That's not a donate button, that's a Grail!

Wink

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0wvGiAH9g width:560 height:315]

up
0 users have voted.

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

Pluto's Republic's picture

While the site was down, I thought about it more than once. jtc shouldn't be out of pocket. This is a pot luck.

To be filed under "Groan" I ran across this tidbit today:

[–]bernmont2016 5 points an hour ago

(I've been reading Dkos on and off for many years, not a poster though.) I tuned into SiriusXM's 'Progress' channel a little bit ago this afternoon, and guess who was on? Markos! He was going on and on about how he's kicking out the Sanders supporters on March 15 to focus on Hillary and the senate, plus how he wants his site to be more diverse and that this desire for diversity supposedly offended white people (he even made some sort of reference to some of the white users of his site being like white nationalists!? wtf). A listener sent in a tweet or email saying that the site should now be called Hillarykos instead of Dailykos.

So, welcome White Supremacists!

What a colossal douche nozzle he is.

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
joe shikspack's picture

wow, markos is really going for broke with this. pretty bizarre behavior, if you ask me.

up
0 users have voted.
Haikukitty's picture

Honestly, what can he hope to gain with this attitude?

up
0 users have voted.

Wonder what the reaction will be when this gets on FB, and Reddit...it's gotta be to create traffic.
Funny thing, how often Donal Trump is on the FP, and he is mocked for his performance.
As Hillary Windsock Clinton has shown us, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

up
0 users have voted.
thrownstone's picture

Aren't regs for fantasy sports betting being written now for the first time?

up
0 users have voted.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” Voltaire

shaharazade's picture

to be a big shot political mover in the establishment Dem. Third Way plutocracy. Plus the dudes another ex-Republican, CIA loving, libertarian type so he is telling the truth when he says 'issues' don't matter. He's already won the race to the top why would he care? He said in the 'fucking moron' tirade diary thread that bait and switch was okay if it works. the thing that really makes me sick is his abusive manipulation of poc. Stirring the culture war pot to get a woman elected who's policies and agenda keeps austerity, inequality and endless killing of others alive and enforced by the goon squads here and globally.

up
0 users have voted.
gulfgal98's picture

This is an outstanding comment. You hit that nail straight on the head.

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

Haikukitty's picture

Honestly, what can he hope to gain with this attitude?

up
0 users have voted.
dance you monster's picture

The tweaks and "updates" to his Ides Of March screed were the first round of that, as the reaction was not as cuddly as he might have thought, as the cynical insincerity of the date and criteria were thrown back in his face, and as alternatives (this place and the Reddit group) opened up immediately. Even as the Clintonistas intoned that the altered text proves his new program reasonable, y'know, fair and balanced, he knew he'd overstepped. As things have blown up still more since then, and beyond the confines of his site, he has to try to look like the righteous one, which everyone knows he's not, even the Clintonistas but they don't give a crap 'cuz he's their troll. But in the bigger picture he has to convince the ones whom he's trying to ingratiate himself to, the ones who suggested he'd have access if he performed to their script.

He has to demonize us. Standard propaganda procedure.

Fuck him, fuck that place. We'll have a couple of weeks here of people doing unseemly things in his general direction, wholly understandably, just as we did when c99 first started up, but then everyone will get comfy that this place is its own arena, with its own character, and with all these new users we'll see a lot of new things develop here. Already we are seeing this place grow to what dK was in 2004. There's a bright future ahead, I think.

up
0 users have voted.
detroitmechworks's picture

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

I hadn't seen this and really, sitting here alone in my kitchen I frightened my dog and cats laughing so hard "it threw me into a coughing fit" just as it did one of the posters on the site. Thanks so much for this. Sheer comedy genius.

up
0 users have voted.
WindDancer13's picture

Do you have a link to that, please?

If there is one in your post, I am not seeing it. It may take awhile for me to get used to this site.

up
0 users have voted.

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

I bought one of those "lifetime" subscriptions -- bought a couple of others for some good friends there. Got my money's worth not seeing all the damn ads (especially the ones for Clinton) so I'm not asking for a refund (plus I'm reserving the right to go back there for a bit of schadenfreude if Clinton loses to Trump, or if she wins and takes us into another war somewhere), but I'd be willing to chip in a few extra couch cushion pennies once in a while to keep the servers humming.

up
0 users have voted.

And the whole thing is just sad.

up
0 users have voted.

The saddest thing to me is to see Kos and his site perpetuating the racial divide. We will never see the end to this race thing. Ever. Thank you Kos for helping to ensure that. And thank you also to the Hillary Clinton campaign who chose to "go there" in order to WIN, WIN, WIN at all costs. I live for that day when all good people look up and say "We're sick of being manipulated into dividing ourselves, against ourselves, and remaining weak in order to serve the personal interests of power-hungry rich sociopaths." Marcos, I'm ashamed for you. I really am.

up
0 users have voted.
seefleur's picture

Bring out the button so we can all celebrate here!

Just my two cents...

up
0 users have voted.

Think off-center.
George Carlin

snoopydawg's picture

He said this on the radio today. I forgotten who posted it.

(I've been reading Dkos on and off for many years, not a poster though.) I tuned into SiriusXM's 'Progress' channel a little bit ago this afternoon, and guess who was on? Markos! He was going on and on about how he's kicking out the Sanders supporters on March 15 to focus on Hillary and the senate, plus how he wants his site to be more diverse and that this desire for diversity supposedly offended white people (he even made some sort of reference to some of the white users of his site being like white nationalists!? wtf). A listener sent in a tweet or email saying that the site should now be called Hillarykos instead of Dailykos.

So it's not just right wing talking points he says are forbidden. He's doing exactly what you think he's doing.
And I haven't seen anyone linking to Breibart or Alex Jones. All of my so called RWTP came from reliable progressive websites.

I remember how in 06 he said that Hillary wasn't qualified to be president. After what she did during her time as SOS, he pushing for more fracking and her saying 45 times that the TPP was the gold standard of trade agreements to her many speeches to the banks, corporations, hedge funds, and insurance companies, it's obvious to me that she's even less qualified to be president.
We are pretty sure what type of people she would appoint to her cabinet.
And how or why her supporters don't see that is beyond my understanding.

I didn't see that Pluto had already posted it.

up
0 users have voted.

Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Pluto's Republic's picture

And how or why her supporters don't see that is beyond my understanding.

They were successfully reprogrammed into Third Way mutant democrats.

Those with traditional Democratic values were jettisoned.

Think about it and you'll see it. In fact, it's not a secret what's been going on.

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato

Not only has he signed off on the race-baiting, it's now clearly part of his MO. The point appears to be to permanently cripple progressive momentum within the party by pitting AAs against "the left", now branded as white supremacists! The end goal would presumably be two conservative parties, and progressives locked out entirely from the system.

up
0 users have voted.
Blasphemy101's picture

The show aired originally on Thursday March 3rd. The Saturday show was a rebroadcast of this. He said all this before the edict on Daily Kos was posted. If you have a SiriusXM internet account, it is available on demand (It was on 'Make It Plain with Mark Thompson').

up
0 users have voted.

War, War Never Changes - Fallout Series

stevej's picture

that Moulitas has little time for lets say older white males - other than ones who line his pockets. This would seem to confirm that.

up
0 users have voted.

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire

Who you calling an "older white male?" Markos, is that you?

up
0 users have voted.
gulfgal98's picture

for over a year in hopes that we could provide a great place to discuss not only politics, but real issues and policy.

Phil, I hope you and everyone else here will continue to contribute here. We did not start as the anti-kos, but were realistic that the some of the issues and problems over there would eventually lead people to come here to give us a try. Speaking for myself, I am a very grateful to see so many valuable folks here and hope you will stay and contribute content and commentary on a regular basis. Good

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

shaharazade's picture

up
0 users have voted.
triv33's picture

I saw triple b go reductivist in two seconds flat today on somebody asking about how in the world a criticism of Hillary about taking money from banks could be right-wing, and he replied if they ever said it--it is. LOL

up
0 users have voted.

I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~

PhilJD's picture

about corned beef sandwiches in Bernie's pocket. Baby steps, bbb.

up
0 users have voted.

Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

Ciganka's picture

BTW, PhilJD someone was asking for an example of a front pager writing anything AS on DKos, and I fished out that bbb comment. I posted it, but of course it was the usual crickets.

up
0 users have voted.

It gets on my nerves, and you know how I am about my nerves...

who called Sanders "Old Baldy" right in a front-page piece?

But writing anything about Hillary Clinton is sexist. Even wearing the same jacket in a debate that she wore to meet with Goldman Sachs.

I haven't seen bbb on the front page in a while though -- methinks he may have been demoted, possibly after his comment about atheists having no morals a few months back (that was about the time of one of his several time outs). Since I believe that Markos himself is an atheist (or at least an agnostic) he may have taken that personally.

up
0 users have voted.
triv33's picture

and why would you want to smear your candidate, anyway? I'm paraphrasing, but you get the gist of it. OMFG

up
0 users have voted.

I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~

if C99 becomes just another in a dreary series of places to vent about the foibles and mismanagement of DKos, Caucus99 can never succeed... or at any rate, never succeed in an interesting and politically valuable way.

That is something we should all keep in mind.
The idea is to take the best stuff from DKos, not the worst stuff. Leave the crap behind you and let it go.

up
0 users have voted.
PhilJD's picture

so you can still add a space between "best" and "stuff." Just sayin.

up
0 users have voted.

Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

until it gets abused.

up
0 users have voted.
Raggedy Ann's picture

I want to celebrate the possibility of Bernie without feeling like a battered housewife, which happened to me when I was a young bride. Sad
It's a breath of fresh air to be here!

up
0 users have voted.

"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

shaharazade's picture

before the mass exodus is excellent. It's my go to for news and writing. Between you, joe and others I get all the news fit to read and 'issues' galore. Plenty of diverse articles and points of view about the state of the universe and beyond. I'm lazy and you guys run the stories down and write some dozies. I think once everybody settles in and dkos becomes kos's personal loonie tune DNC RW echo chamber. The new arrivals, are some of the smartest, funniest, talented, progressive free thinking humanist online. Free thinking and speech about everything going down and history and a global perpective to boot.

The best stuff about dkos is long gone and too hard to find in the mass of garbage posted daily. I intend to still participate in BRN, Women for Bernie, and anything you, bobswern, Cassiodorus, Chauncey de Vega or my other favorite writers that are left there, post. I will do so until he kicks my ass out for saying warmonger, neocon, I like socialism it's groovy or man oh man that woman is scary looking. My venting days have receded in the rear view mirror the longer I'm here. We all are more then our frustrations with Dkos and his lousy website that really needs a stake in it's cold dead heart.

I've been an active member for 10? years at dkos and believe me the crap has long since been left behind years of crap and much good.. The best of dkos I absorbed and it is in my mind and heart. This site is whatever we make it and I have faith somehow that it will shine. All of us seem to have a need and a desire for a better world then the one we're told over and over is inevitable and there is nothing you can do to change it. Well fuck that shit. I'll never stop trying or give into Axelrod's 'world as we find it'.

My two cents. As for letting go of the crap it's good to remember that the crap on dkos is now de rigeur. so yeah let it go and as lets 'move on' lol. Sorry I was remembering back in the day when I phone banked for Move On to elect Jim Webb. I volunteered to work for the blue team. They gave me three names of blue candidates and a list of phone numbers and said go forth and convince people that these are progressive candidates. Yowee! the one dude I was reluctant to work for Patrick Murphy turned out to be the only person worth supporting. So anyway on this netroot world of today this is a good place to start anew. Regardless of the background noise emanating from dkos I do believe we the people and the truth will prevail.

up
0 users have voted.

was a decent alternative to the odious George "Macaca" Allen -- his loss apparently sent his political star burning up harmlessly in the atmosphere.

Back in those days we were all about "more" Democrats, "better" be damned...and it seems to be that history is repeating itself now.

I'll limit my Daily Kos venting to these sorts of threads, and contribute brand new ideas on the rest of the site, promise.

up
0 users have voted.

I think it is good for anyone who needs to vent, to do it here.

This is supposed to be a safe place for us. Please don't start making rules that censor us. We are coming here to get away from censorship.

Plus, I've been at DK almost every day for over 11 years. My feelings are hurt, (well, they have been hurt since the first night I went into a presidential race diary and got my ass kicked, quite viciously for saying I needed someone to tell me why I shouldn't be afraid of my grandchildren going to war if Hillary wins) I couldn't believe it a few days ago when Kos wrote a diary calling Bernie supporters vile names, then the one yesterday that put the kibosh on discussing any problems with Hillary. Now I hear he was on NPR radio bragging about throwing out the Bernie supporters and implying we are bigots. Now I'm furious and I would like to talk about it some place with like minded people and get myself back together. It won't be terribly easy for me. I am disabled so I'm mostly housebound, DK has been my window to the world for a long time.

Sorry for going on so long. :/

up
0 users have voted.

'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

Pluto's Republic's picture

Take all the time you need to express yourself.

This is a safe place.

No rules will censor you. Our new members need some TLC.

They've got some healing to do.

And some fun and music to enjoy.

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Ciganka's picture

"Our new members need some TLC." Yes, I was thinking that maybe there should be some kind of trauma desk or something. Seriously, it has been a wild ride. I think that many of us on the left see things through the perspective of class, as well as history. Many of us are aware of the connection between economic distress and fascism. However, I am an expat, and what I have been seeing is that I have completely overestimated the economic distress in America - apparently everything is just lovely. JBG

up
0 users have voted.

It gets on my nerves, and you know how I am about my nerves...

and set up an account here the first time I heard about the site -- but it was Friday's edict (ironically, my birthday -- I think I would have preferred underwear or socks as a birthday gift) that brought me posting here. I'm also checking in with the Kossacks For Bernie subreddit, but their posting requirements (one every 10 minutes) are really tough on an old broad who doesn't know when to shut up.

And I know your last sentence was snark -- but from where I sit, where people of average salary not to mention those on fixed incomes can't afford a decent place to live, it's not all sweetness and light. And too many people who've "got theirs" and got into the housing market before things went nutso don't recognize that. And they mourn the loss of a dearly departed member while totally ignoring the economic environment that put her in that spot where she couldn't afford quality health care.

up
0 users have voted.
Ciganka's picture

I have been so alarmed watching the US economy and the beating that that most vulnerable are taking while more and more join the ranks. However, now I am hearing this chatter that it is really ok. It is just to avoid having to talk about class and income inequality where HRC comes out really bad. Why do we have to suffer this injustice so that HRC can get a nomination? We would not ask others to suffer? What we want, we want for all Americans?

up
0 users have voted.

It gets on my nerves, and you know how I am about my nerves...

Is only for new users. The next day, no problem, no wait

up
0 users have voted.
thanatokephaloides's picture

I am disabled so I'm mostly housebound

I resemble that remark! Smile

I'm semi-bedridden due to breathing problems and arthritis, especially in my knees.

DK has been my window to the world for a long time.

I can indeed relate. It's disappointing where it ended up turning.

Now I hear he was on NPR radio bragging about throwing out the Bernie supporters and implying we are bigots. Now I'm furious and I would like to talk about it some place with like minded people and get myself back together. It won't be terribly easy for me.

I'm here for you, either public or private message, if you need. You now know I understand your situation well, being in it myself.

Meanwhile, magicsister, welcome!

Sean

Smile

up
0 users have voted.

"US govt/military = bad. Russian govt/military = bad. Any politician wanting power = bad. Anyone wielding power = bad." --Shahryar

"All power corrupts absolutely!" -- thanatokephaloides

underwriter505's picture

I am also in Colorado Springs, BTW.
And old
And I do realize that prognosticating from polls is only slightly above the level of palm reading and crystal balls, but it isn't any of us doubting Hillary's ability to beat Trump, it's the polls.
And scared.
Even with two more states as of today.

up
0 users have voted.

due to a bad foot -- I can go out a bit with a sock/special sandal to keep pressure off the bad area, but can't walk for long with it (not much support) and not in bad weather (which we actually had some this weekend) so I've been staying inside.

up
0 users have voted.

Hang in there, Cali Scribe. I know it sucks.

If it helps I am very happy to see you here.

I look forward to hearing about your recovery Smile

up
0 users have voted.

'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

I understand being scared. I am, too.

Seeing you here is a huge help though.

And I am getting more relaxed here because I'm not worried about being attacked.

I'm old and in Oklahoma City. Colorado springs sounds like heaven Smile

up
0 users have voted.

'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

Thank you for the welcome!

I'm sorry to hear you are in a similar situation. I wouldn't wish it anyone. Even Kos. Smile

I am here for you in return Smile

up
0 users have voted.

'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

Please vent as quickly as possible, so we can then think about what we can do to elect President Sanders.
This is a collection of wonderful, thoughtful, smart, creative people - we have to be catalytic for a movement to defeat the Clinton/DNC/DLC/Third Way/Super pacs/super delegates - we must be part of the solution to what DWS, Markos, David Brock ( no distinctions between them now in my mind) are trying to do.

It's Our Turn.
President Sanders: an idea whose time has come.

up
0 users have voted.
Ciganka's picture

I agree that we need something to do. Set up some diaries or something. I am hoping after this weekend passes that I will have time to do some serious writing here. I am not practiced enough to spit out diaries yet; I tend to agonize over details. However, I agree with you, we need to get this show on the road.

up
0 users have voted.

It gets on my nerves, and you know how I am about my nerves...

joe shikspack's picture

take your time and heal.

there are no censors here.

if you have a mind to, take a stroll through the content that was posted prior to the time that you arrived here. you'll find that the discussions here quite frequently are about things that are wildly beyond the realm of the mentionable at the site from which you came.

up
0 users have voted.

That is what I am doing.

This is so great Smile

up
0 users have voted.

'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

I agree with you generally, but IMO the people who have moved into new spaces due to the Ides of March Decree need to express their feelings by talking about their experiences, and history needs the record of their voices.

By 3/5, HuffPo was packaging this as 'leading/largest progressive/liberal blog unites for Hillary'. We can't let that lie become the only record of these events.

Also, I expect many of the newcomers here will be suffering the kind of PTSD/trauma of someone escaping a psychologically abusive realationship goes through, and will need to express that.

Sorry if typos, on tablet.

up
0 users have voted.

I agree with you generally, but IMO the people who have moved into new spaces due to the Ides of March Decree need to express their feelings by talking about their experiences, and history needs the record of their voices.

By 3/5, HuffPo was packaging this as 'leading/largest progressive/liberal blog unites for Hillary'. We can't let that lie become the only record of these events.

Also, I expect many of the newcomers here will be suffering the kind of PTSD/trauma of someone escaping a psychologically abusive realationship goes through, and will need to express that.

Sorry if typos, on tablet.

up
0 users have voted.

Compliance.

If you don't agree with my position - I'm gonna call you a name and do my best to get others to tar and feather you with this label so that having labeled you, we can discredit and dismiss any of your opinions because you don't serve our needs when it comes to our agenda and our opinions on X topic.

I recall some big to do about gamers going on, but if you said anything to the effect of just being an average gamer (PC, console) and not even having a dog in the fight and you didn't agree with the politics and opinion being pushed, you were accused of being with that other bad group of people because reasons and things.

But the accusations poured in. You're this. You're that. You must be this too.

Terms I wasn't really familiar with but after looking them up, I realized that in order to push those opinions, those people must have felt the need to paint anyone as not with them as being so negative and against them that their opinion must be the one to be agreed with, because any consensus to the middle of the spectrum on the topic didn't suit their purposes or agenda.

Compliance or else…

It's why I stopped taking the place seriously a long long time ago. This pissed a few people off of course. How dare you not have X respect, and Y opinion, and think this way about Z. And then of course, on occasion, but still way to often, - a bad cliche - i was actually told to 'think of the children'.

Comply or else.

I chose 'or else'. I'll stick to my own opinions.

And I had a recent conversation with someone who told me I had to respect her and her opinions. I argued that tolerance was the word being looked for. My opinions certainly weren't going to be 'respected' since they ran counter, but we could have at least agreed to disagree and tolerate things. I'm not sure when tolerance became a bad word. Maybe it was around the time that we started hearing people demand 'respect' and the meaning of that word got a little blurred with tolerance and simple decency between people whether they had much in common or not.

We've blurred the lines between tolerance and respect. respect is earned, not bestowed. Respect is holding someone or something in esteem or high regard. I can tolerate difference. Tolerance didn't used to be a bad word, but things changed from a request for tolerance (a live and let live, I'll live my way, you feel free to live your way), to demanding 'respect'. I don't feel the need to hold any opinion or person in esteem or high regard unless that is earned. maybe this bothers people because they're all about the new and improved definition of what they consider respect to be, but to me, it's still something earned, not bestowed. And to me, tolerance is not a bad word at all.

But again, even this opinion on respect vs. tolerance comes down to compliance.

Compliance:
I'll have the popcorn, with a side of 'or else' thank you.

up
0 users have voted.
detroitmechworks's picture

before you start alienating the people on your side. At some point you'll end up realizing that you're preaching to a choir in an empty church.

Foul accusations also tend to lower the tone of the discourse, and I'm not surprised to see the reaction to them over here where we are ALLOWED to speak of them openly, without judgement.

I'm feeling a bit like we're in the Triage stage after a Mass Casualty event. We need to deal with the WORST injuries first, but we'll get around to the guy with the badly healed broken leg eventually.

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

I understand people are passionate about things, but this is also 'just the internet'.

I've reduced KOS and most online venues to an 'oh noes, someone was wrong/had a different opinion on the interwebz' thing.

I just don't see getting so wrapped up that my mood becomes lesser or that I let someone upset me etc to any degree. Granted, those accusations increased too - people proudly thinking I must be furious, or incensed - meh - I'm a douche to them - they're a douche to me - we're not changing each other's minds - so F'em' and enjoy sharing the screen shots with friends who will also get a good laugh.

Ultimately, none of those people impact my life in any meaningful way. They are strangers on the internet and so they will remain. What they say, and what they think of me lacks any real importance.

Sticks and Stones and all. We've gotten away from that so much. Now, in public spaces, there can't be debates - we need to create safe spaces to shield people from thoughts and words that might be hurtful.

We used to be of the opinion that no one has a "RIGHT' to not be offended. People who were outraged and offended for lame idiotic things were smirked at and people shook their heads. Sadly, that's changed and everyone assumes that a lack of being offended is now somehow one of the top ten and must be in the bill of rights somewhere. And it seems to have taken so little time for that kind of mindset to become the norm.

But according to some on the internet, that makes me cold and callous and unfeeling, insensitive, unwilling to see another point of view and the list of accusations goes further. Those people are wrong of course. They refuse to respect my opinion not that I expect respect. Worse, they're hypocrites, because they refuse to even tolerate it.

up
0 users have voted.

will dominate for a while. But we will have to move on reasonably quickly.

up
0 users have voted.
gulfgal98's picture

Great comment. I love you! Smile

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

detroitmechworks's picture

It the entire reason that the rules are kept as vague as possible.
The anonymous flagging, enforcement by those that appear on the front page, and numerous other subtle techniques are all tools to keep dissent down. Smearing the other side is about the only thing that's acceptable.

If I believed in Conspiracy Theory, I would surmise that Kos is covering his bets. If Hillary wins, he gets to brag about it, and gain support from party loyalists. He gets to talk about the importance of rules in social media, and keep his occasional job as a talking head. Hillary LOSES, and he gets to talk about the importance of a left wing opposition to the Republican administration, and gains support from party loyalists. He gets to talk about the importance of rules in social media and keep his occasional job as a talking head.

The ONLY way Kos comes out of this bad is if Bernie wins. He's lost a lot of respect from the left for this crap and won't be able to maintain his facade without true leftist content.

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

PhilJD's picture

would far rather see President Trump or President Cruz than President Sanders. In the end, what truly frightens them is an attack on their class interests.

up
0 users have voted.

Hillary Clinton 2016: I'm a proud progmoderate!

IdealistCynic's picture

From accquaintances on Facebook and some commenters on Kos, the thing these "centrists" are complaining about are the high taxes that Sanders is proposing. One of them was even complaining about the financial transaction tax of 0.5 percent that Bernie was proposing, saying it was going to kill the stock market. Bet I know who he was working for.

These poor dears might just be the $200k plus people that Sanders is planning on soaking. It's nothing that hasn't been tried, and worked before, from 1935 all the way through 1981.

up
0 users have voted.

support those in power as well.

We'll enforce this law, but not that one. We'll prosecute and throw the book at this type of criminal (war on drugs) but not that one (high finance/white collar crime). How often do we avoid throwing the book at someone in the war on drugs because we need them around to fix the problems they fucked up with their drugs.

But when it comes to the country/world being financially terrorized, we let those people off because we need them. No one in the Obama Admin has or will prosecute these people. No one in a Clinton Administration will either. Wonder if that was worth the price of speaking fees for some companies/groups...

We're overburdened with so much law now that those in power get to pick and choose (cherry pick) whatever they prefer so that they can ensure they maintain their power structure over the populace, and when the next crisis comes around, they'll use it and avoid prosecuting whoever they choose again.

up
0 users have voted.
detroitmechworks's picture

With "Merely technical, no big deal" violations of laws in order to promote his wife.

Meanwhile Edward Snowden gets execution threats for public service.

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

No matter what it is…

It's OK WHEN A Clinton Does it.

When other people lie, have conflicts of interest, show signs of the appearance of potential corruption, change positions, change positions again, triangulate, etc. - when other people do it - IT IS BAD.

BUT - IT"S OK WHEN A CLINTON DOES IT.

Now clap very hard and smile, and cheer. The hypocrisy will continue until morale improves, and then it will be set on repeat.

up
0 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

or they think it's minimal. And they love her "story", which, to me, is that she's a woman running for the Democratic nomination but, to them, is that she's a strong woman who has overcome sexist attacks from all sides.

It is very difficult to reach them. I might have mentioned this in the last day or so, a thing I read on Facebook where a Hillary supporter said it wasn't fair to call out her lies because all politicians lie and she was being singled out because she's a woman. This supporter acknowledged that Hillary is a liar but chooses to ignore it, overlook it, excuse it because of the Hillary "story".

It's also true that nearly all politicians are crooked, like Hillary...but she cannot be criticized for something that we wouldn't criticize Harry Reid for (why would we care about Reid in this context?) because he's a man and it's ok (which it's not).

Coming from that perspective any and all criticism of Hillary is sexist. These people believe that men are not criticized for being crooks. You cannot point them to the criticism. They will not look. If you point out that Hillary has taken $153 million in what appear to be bribes while Sanders has not then you and Sanders are sexist or rightwingers.

The one hope would be currently uncommitted voters. They need to be reached by the Sanders campaign. There are sheets handed out to volunteers which show how often people have voted. As the volunteer goes door to door he/she marks off the outcome of the visit (commitment to vote for the candidate? opposition? not sure? won't vote? am-scray?). Just my two cents, the Sanders people need to get those who haven't voted much. That's a tough thing but any task can be accomplished if it's defined and planned for.

The rest of the voters have made up their minds and pointing out how bad Hillary is has diminishing returns. It's like (ahem!) having a front page full of Republicans.

up
0 users have voted.
triv33's picture

good portion of the country as being anything other than dishonest. That's what these folks just can't quite seem to grasp. Then they're going to want to look around for hippies to punch when she doesn't carry the day, well, no. Go buddy up and punch each other. Her story isn't going to pull in Indies, and after the shafting the party is giving Bernie, the kids will just walk the fuck away, politics is dirty, ew. My state doesn't vote until the end of April, I'm still pushing until it's impossible.

up
0 users have voted.

I shave my legs with Occam's Razor~

BernieOrBust's picture

I agree with your comment completely. As soon as the primary is over, I'm changing my registration to Indie. The more I read about HRC's record, and the more I see how rigged the election is...... YES RIGGED!!!!! the less inclined I am to vote for her in the general. In fact, I made the decision last week, I wasn't going to do so, damn the consequences. She is a liar; a cheat; the 1% representing the 1%; she is pro fracking/Wall Street/corporations. She and Bill have their tentacles (which are MANY) into just about every corrupt, dubious business activity this country engages in!!!! It's fucking crazy the shit these people have involved themselves in over the years!!! That "vast Right Wing conspiracy"....while I'm sure there is plenty of truth to that....after all it is the Right Wing (lol), at the same time corruption, deception, doubt, and dubiousness seems to follow them like a shadow wherever they go!!!!! So yes, why the hell would we vote for this woman after the primary? She and her surrogates, which is pretty much the entire Dem party elite have done EVERYTHING in their power to ensure she is placed on the throne to carry on with their vicious and dangerous policies that they perpetrate upon the 99% in this country. If the American public is too damn stoopid to vote for someone who actually wants to help them, I'll be damned if I'm going to take up the slack for them and vote for someone I dislike immensely, don't trust, and think would be a horrible president. Ok, well, now you get an idea of why I got 6 hide rates tonight over at DKos, and decided to see if there were greener more like minded pastures on other sites!

up
0 users have voted.

without worries of repercussion as long as it's done in a civil manner. Let it rip!

up
0 users have voted.
ppnortney's picture

It's not like saying "I prefer apple pie to cherry pie." Some of us have a real disgust for HRC's history, and being expected to cast a vote for her is like being told we have to sell our soul. That sounds hyperbolic but there's truth in it if you're expected to vote FOR something or someone you find so morally, ethically repugnant.

up
0 users have voted.

The smaller the mind the greater the conceit. --Aesop

gulfgal98's picture

I have been spending most Saturdays with a small local Peace vigil. I simply cannot vote for someone whom I believe to be the a very hawkish warmonger. It really is a question of my personal conscience for me. I cannot be a hypocrite in my voting while trying to promote peace.

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

zee64's picture

regarding the speaking fees is - why shouldn't a women be able to command a high price for speaking fees? What do I have against women being highly paid?

up
0 users have voted.

"Hope is believing in the plausibility of the possible over the necessity of the probable." -- Mimonides. 12th century

TheOtherMaven's picture

THIS woman is running for President and also commanding insanely high speaker fees from Big Bidness. There's a very clear conflict of interest there, and those who can't or won't see it have some ulterior motive for not seeing it (of which the least dangerous but most foolish is "First Woman President Goshwow!!!")

up
0 users have voted.

There is no justice. There can be no peace.

Why we're so afraid of the word female I do not know.

I have seen arguments that using the word female reduces 'people' to being animals, and others who say the word female speaks to inferiority because it reduces someone to their gender.

We don't have a man President, we have a male President. - this isn't criticized though

And it's not even a Woman President.
It's a Female President. - but the word female is criticized, though we're happy to use male even though it too should fall under that 'it's talking about animals, it sounds inferior because it reduces someone to gender excuse that gets leveled.

As such, were a woman elcected into that position, she would be a female President, not a woman President.

Man Doctor, Man Senator, Man Plumber, Man Electrician. We have male doctors, plumbers, etc.
Woman Doctor? Woman Senator, Woman -insert profession here-

from Grammar Girl:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/woman-versus-female-0

up
0 users have voted.

used to be a problem. Now they want us to celebrate it.

Anyone else would be ripped apart for the appearance of corruption and the potentials involved, but we're supposed to clap and applaud Hillary Clinton for it.

The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

This is one of my repost replies when it comes to Clinton on conflict of interest and the appearance of corruption:

Only people with faults should be criticized and Hillary Clinton has none.
Other Democrats may have some faults, but not Hillary Clinton. Republicans of course have many faults.
She is perfection. A sage. A poet. She is a paragon of virtue. She is all things to all people. No really! Just listen to her. She’ll say almost anything or switch any position she needs to. But even that is not a fault. 

When Hillary does it, it’s called Evolution.
When Hillary Clinton Does It, It’s perfectly fine even if it would be a problem for someone else to do that very same thing.

-----
...granted, this one breaks with talking about Hillary and slips into criticizing her, but there are a few where everything i say is glowingly false and paints her as a total picture of perfection - and still people get upset with me even when I compliment her in such a manner. Smile

up
0 users have voted.
detroitmechworks's picture

And they will make absolutely SURE of your real position through time tested methods...

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZegQYgygdw]

up
0 users have voted.

I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

I recc'd this comment on the orange site and I'm proud to recc it here. It's so true. Her record smells to heaven, and it's hardly rightwing to say so. And as for her "story"? Heavens above. If Bill hadn't married her, we'd never have heard of her, because she has the charisma of a dishmop. That is hardly a feminist way to achieve. I also think if Bill hadn't married her she'd still be a Republican. All her natural sympathies are for the rich and powerful. That's why she was so shocked when other people weren't impressed by her friendship with the very important Kissinger. That's why she hangs out with people like the Trumps without any apparent sense of irony. And every time she opens her mouth in an unguarded moment some elitist tripe that shows she'll never be comfortable with people outside of her privileged class slips out. She doesn't even hear it.

up
0 users have voted.

Twain Disciple

during the term of one of the biggest political crooks in the 20th century -- Richard Nixon. I would ride my bike home from junior high to watch the latter part of the Watergate hearings on TV. His crimes weren't financial, but general corruption. And Henry Kissinger, Hillary Clinton's "friend", was in thick with Tricky Dick. That probably scares me more than the money issue -- when you've got a foreign policy that meets the Seal of Approval by folks like Kissinger and PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan, that's not the kind of foreign policy I want for America.

up
0 users have voted.

Pages