OMG! The RUSSIANS are a THREAT to us with all their hacking stuff!
Note: following DallasDoc's example, I thought I'd publish this here before doing so at Dailykos, which was my original intention. Yes, I published an earlier version of this argument here back in October.
Are we talking about acts of war?
Should America launch retaliatory measures?
(Head shaking…)
Enough of all this hysterical arm-waving, warmongers. In what may be a completely futile effort (given the current makeup of the Dailykos community), I want to offer a voice of Sanity and Reason to counter all of the jingoistic rhetoric we’ve been hearing lately.
For the sake of argument, let’s just go ahead and assume the worst-case-scenario that the warmongers are advancing---that Russian government employees did the hacking at Putin’s direction.
Just how big of a deal would this be, if we knew with absolute certainty that it was true? Well, from an historical perspective, there is actually nothing in this possibility that should give any normal American actual cause for alarm, given certain facts that most educated members of the political class really ought to be aware of.
The single most important morsel of truth that MSM sources are willfully ignoring is the fact that all governments around the world that are major players in international affairs have for quite some time been doing their utmost to perfect their abilities to both 1) hack into the secure sites of other countries and 2) protect themselves from the same.
It would indeed be utterly insane for them to not do so.
We know this. We’ve always known this. Contrary to the alarmist language and affected emotion the warmongers are currently using to stoke this ‘crises’---created out of whole cloth---there are no surprises here that our national security people have uncovered in a shocking moment of discovery.
Now you would think, from the accusations the warmongers are pushing forward, that the United States government would never do such a thing to another country, i.e., try to influence the outcome of their democratic elections.
After all, if we were guilty, wouldn’t we have to condemn ourselves in the same breath we are using to condemn others?
The actual historical truth of the matter is that the United States has a long history of using the CIA to do just that if/when our ‘decision-makers’ perceived it would be in America's interests to do so:
In the late 1940s, the newly established CIA cut its teeth in Western Europe, pushing back against some of the continent's most influential leftist parties and labor unions. In 1948, the United States propped up Italy's centrist Christian Democrats and helped ensure their electoral victory against a leftist coalition, anchored by one of the most powerful communist parties in Europe. CIA operatives gave millions of dollars to their Italian allies and helped orchestrate what was then an unprecedented, clandestine propaganda campaign: This included forging documents to besmirch communist leaders via fabricated sex scandals, starting a mass letter-writing campaign from Italian Americans to their compatriots, and spreading hysteria about a Russian takeover and the undermining of the Catholic Church.
Our political leaders have consistently shown that they are not above doing such things. Our leadership class has a long history of not only fomenting political revolutions/insurrections in other nations, but also of attempting to arrange the assassination of the leaders of other countries when we thought it would be in our interests to do so.
Given these indisputable facts re: our political history, it is indeed profoundly hypocritical for American politicians to now declare that efforts by other countries to do the same thing to us are both outrageous and alarming.
The ultimate truth is that since forever all nations have always tried to influence the outcome of elections in other countries if 1) they believe their vital interests are at stake, and 2) they have the means to do so.
The only thing that has changed over the past 40 years is that the "means to interfere" available to technologically advanced nations has changed. Back in the day, it usually involved getting spies/agents in the target country and then finding ways to get money to the political opposition in ways that are not obvious.
Now---with the institutionalization of The Internet---the methods of 'influencing' are different. Hacking foreign websites is more cost-efficient than the methods used in the old days to gather intelligence and 'influence' political developments in other countries.
So in light of these historical facts, the great momentous issue that is supposedly generating a great deal of alarm in Washington---the possibility that Russia might have tried to influence the outcome of our elections---is not any kind of news that can be rationally considered shocking or even scary.
It is not unexpected. It does not present a threat to the American people. And it is certainly not even remotely serious enough of a matter to actually risk going to war over.
Sure, if the Russians (or the Israelis, or any other country for that matter) had sent a team of assassins to kill one of our candidates, that would be quite a different matter entirely, but this 'revealing of political secrets' accusation doesn’t rise to anywhere near that level of seriousness.
No, my friends, we Americans do not have any right to insist that other countries forswear methods of interference that we ourselves have been guilty of with respect to other countries.
And thus, there is no rational basis for any of these expressions of outrage that America’s legion of warmongers are currently voicing at the type of 'interference' that the Russians are being accused of.
. . .
In light of this broader understanding of the ‘Fear Russia’ messaging you’ve been hearing lately, I would suggest to you that there really are some people we need to fear when we start to hear the MSM repeating the demonization of Russia rhetoric that we now hear almost every day.
I’m referring to the warmongers in both political parties who are using this ‘issue’ to stir up anti-Russian sentiment, to prepare the American public for war against Russia, or at least for the high-stakes brinkmanship games that the warmonger class loves to play on the international stage.
You know, like when they start talking tough about our willingness to risk nuclear war over insanely stupid things, like who has sovereignty rights over the eastern Ukraine, or Taiwan.
It is indeed the warmongers who threaten us. The ‘patriots’ within our political class who are always pointing a finger at some country on the other side of the world that we are supposed to believe is a great threat to the American people.
In order for them to play their games with America’s military assets, they know they need to gin up broad public support. They know that this objective is rather easy to accomplish if/when they are able to persuade MSM voices to regularly depict the leaders of the countries they want to muscle around as malevolent ‘dictators’ that America must save innocent people from by either wielding its awesome military might, or simply threatening to do so.
It seemingly never occurs to most luminaries within the MSM that it might be a good idea for them to question with a bit of fearful suspicion the great patriots of our political class when they are solemnly seeking to convince us that we all need to support another noble cause in which we use our weapons of war to defeat the Bad Guys on the other side of the ocean who either threaten us or 'our friends.'
The reason we should fear these people is something that becomes apparent when we reflect on the frightful lesson the German people learned when they trusted the most patriotic voices in their culture back in the 1930's, those who were oh-so-impressed with the military capabilities of the German people, which were indeed quite awesome at the time.
What the German people learned through the horrors of war was that the greatest threat they faced back then was not the Communists or the Jewish 'back-stabbers' they had been warned about, but was rather the extraordinarily proud and boastful legion of patriots in their country who presented themselves as the only collective within Germany who could save the German people from [various named threats] with the military muscle that was available to them.
They were the people who were ultimately responsible for getting nearly six million German citizens killed, for the utter destruction of their country’s economy, for the unpleasant reality that their nation’s reputation around the world was destroyed for several generations.
The lesson their suffering teaches us, my friends, is that quite often the greatest threat that a people will ever face is not some Other out there that they’ve heard rumors about, but is actually the manipulative other-bashing that spews from their own political/military leaders.
Think about that the next time you are listening to the pious bleatings of the 'noble purpose' crowd, who are oh-so-certain that America's military/political leaders would never make the kind of fatal miscalculations of that ultimately doomed so many other nations in history that had invested total faith in, and reverence for, their country’s military accomplishments/leadership.
Why should we believe our political leaders are different? Well, it's because we are so special, aren’t we?
(Head shaking) That oh-so-scary article of faith in American exceptionalism.
God (Reason, Sanity) Help Us!
Comments
He could have insisted on prosecutions
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
Propaganda as precursor
Juan Cole
Dear Vladimir
Dear Vladimir:
How about a deal? I'll stop lying about you if you'll stop telling the truth about me.
Your enemy, Hillary Clinton
The CIA has been trying
for years to depose Assad, using every dirty trick in the book. Now that Putin's intervention has rendered all their efforts moot, they fucking hate this guy. So now we're supposed to believe the Agency's assessment of Putin's role in exposing their champion, HRC? Minus any hard evidence? Gimme a break Moyers, how stupid do you think we are?
native
"..Moyers, how stupid do you think we are?"
He's already answered that one.
"And a blue shadow will fall
All over town."
I believe that they -
the HRC team, is going to attempt a coup in the US, overthrow Trump, and install HRC as president.
Everything about the Russia and Trump hysteria smells like coups and wars past.
After all, they are experts at coup-ing.
dfarrah
There are 256 MILLION guns in the US. Half of which are held by
3% of the adult population, approx 7.5 million, holding from eight to 140 guns each. The majority of these people are NRA members who hold the 2nd amendment to be sacrosanct.
These people have been keeping their powder dry for just this reason. Such a coup will only happen over one hell of a lot of cold dead hands.
Wow! Am I horrible for being glad?
I mean, my son owns a WWI rifle that I see as more of a piece of art (beautiful woodworking), than a weapon. He has a .22 strength pellet gun too.
However, am I a horrible person for being glad that so many of Trump's supporters have my back when it comes to keeping the warmonger who's steadily beating the drums of war, even though she lost the damned election, out of the Oval Office?
Am I even more horrible for
Am I even more horrible for being sad
that I don't have the $ to get my shotgun out of layaway yet? By God, I hate Trump, but I would gladly help prevent a Hillary coup.
Let's rejoice! n/t
I fear it is much worse than that.
The blatant partisan freakout over Vladamir Putin and Russia's "hacking" — while clearly utter nonsense — is very important.
Someone inside the government is planting a false flag of foreign interference that can easily be used to delegitimize any future election, should the Establishment wish to do so.
The President has indicated that all evidence of the "Russian threat" has been classified so you are not permitted to see it. He asks you to trust the CIA. If it was classified, then it was classified by either State, Defense, or the Pentagon. The Neocons who run the permanent government live behind those classified walls. They are the ones who determine who the temporary lackey president will be. They generally have a useful tool on both sides of the ticket.
The Establishment has never been more acutely aware that the People are trying to organize to oust them from power, forever. They believe you can still do that. That loop hole will closed shortly. Enter Foreign interference.
The American people should pay attention and identify where this sabotage is coming from, because it is not going away. They should also assemble a coalition of the American people fast and forget parties. Time is running out. In two years the cell door on this plantation will close with a clank.
As for the Establishment, they stand behind both Parties and broker the politicians to special interest donors. They are the political force of the nation. Every dollar in politics moves through their hands. They would prefer that you try to reform the Democratic Party from within. Hahaha.
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Trust the CIA??? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Very dark, brilliant, astute
and original post.
These are plotters with family histories going back to the Santa Clara decision, putting down underlayment for their next success.
As in the classical era when key roads through the mountains had ruts carved into the rock for the wheels to run in so that the animal-drawn freight wagons could travel safely at night.
Thanks, Creosote.
Insights are happening, but they feel like afterthoughts, these days. This one I should have picked up on immediately.
I grew up in a tightly controlled military industrial state, with few roads in or out. I thought all states had one road in and one road with stops at the borders. I am only now understanding the things I normalized, the way TV news was "off," the air traffic at night, the huge windowless compounds where all the dads worked. The drills. The communist threat.
Ugh, it's coming too slow. Too late. But I now see all the things that cannot work inside the system (like voting and political parties), and a few that still can (discarded strategies from a century ago).
Always good to see you and to know you bear witness to this waking transformation.
Pluto
IMAGINE if you woke up the day after a US Presidential Election and headlines around the the world blared, "The Majority of Americans Refused to Vote in US Presidential Election! What Does this Mean?"
Now I'm watching for clues
along the lines you laid out, and hope to see more of your analysis. Yes, slow to see here too but cheered at least to see!
Interestingly some of what Doris Lessing called her "space fiction" of the 1990s does some accurate reporting of current news too.
Keith Olbermann goes berserk over Putin engineered coup
Both could be true.
The Russians could have hacked the DNC and Podesta's emails. And an insider within the DNC could have released the same emails to Wikileaks, independently, without even knowing the Russians had hacked them. Any number of hackers, governments, independent actors, and even our own CIA may have hacked the DNC's internal communications and files. But they didn't all leak them to Wikileaks.
Ironically, it's the Bernie Sanders voters who were defrauded by the DNC and Bernie Sanders himself who was deprived of an honest election. Is Putin supposed to have been trying to help elect Sanders?
I think Craig Murray's revelation makes more sense, that a disgusted insider within the DNC, perhaps a Sanders supporter, provided the emails to Wikileaks. If Putin had wanted to destroy Hillary Clinton, he has a lot more on her than Bernie Sanders' supporters being disenfranchised. He has a Nazi army being funded by our government in Ukraine, he has our military not bombing ISIS' trucks while they're transporting oil, he has pipeline clients in competition with her Foundation-donors'-pipeline-clients in Ukraine. He has Exxon doing well in Russia whilst contributing to her presidential campaign and helping her State Department's Global Shale Initiative develop international fracking.
The one thing we learn from YouTube and all the scandal coverage is that the Clintons and the Trumps and the Putins are friends. They're in business together. And the one person who doesn't fit in here, and needs to be thrown out, is Bernie Sanders, along with his voters. If Putin was hacking the DNC, it may have been to monitor the effort against Sanders.
If anyone had been trying to elect Sanders, the stuff would
have been released well before the end of the Democratic primary. All I remember hearing about hacking during the Democratic primary was bs about Bernie supposedly being culpable for hacking Hillary via hacking the DNC because an employee of the Sanders campaign whom the DNC had employed supposedly had done it.
But, clearly, there is a Bernie Putin link here, which Bernie attempted to cover up by campaigning for Hillary. /sarcasm
I may misunderstand you,
and I wasn't very clear in what I was saying. But I am a complete sceptic about the CIA analysis that the Russian government and Putin hacked the emails and leaked them to Wikileaks. I think it's baloney and has the walk and talk of all the baloney they feed us when promoting war.
I'm just questioning the motive theory on the part of people who believe this story. Putin is a corrupt industrial deal-maker and so are the Clintons. They have scandals in common. I'm one of the Sanders voters who is so relieved that Clinton didn't win that I actually see some hope and daylight in the fact that Trump is nominating Exxon's CEO to be Secretary of State. He's just being honest. Suddenly, all the Democrats who didn't know about it before now know we have an industrial friendship with Vladimir Putin.
Bernie Sanders was a much bigger threat to the corruption and war mongering we have come to see as normal than Hillary Clinton will ever be. So I was half joking but trying to make the point that if Putin did hack the DNC it would have been to keep an eye on the successful suppression of Bernie Sanders' voters, in support of that suppression.
I understand you. You and I usually agree.
I was responding to this question in your post:
Even if it was rhetorical, I think it's good to note that no one was using this info to try to help elect Sanders or the leaks would have come during the primary. For purposes of that comment of mine, it doesn't matter if the info resulted from a leak or a hack or God's finger writing Podesta's risotto recipe and other info on stone tablets, ala the ten commandments.
I have heard it is an act of war. Apparently, "act of war,"
"high treason" and "hacked US elections" are the new terms for revealing true things that embarrass the PTB, including Podesta's actual risotto recipe.
That is where we come from. http://blog.consource.org/post/87198940335/the-constitutional-convention...
That is where we are.
Just ask Assange and Snowden.
And whoever leaked the DNC stuff. Although.... it is possible that you may not be able to ask the leaker. The person I suspect of having been the leaker passed away suddenly while being robbed of absolutely nothing.
Oh, sorry, I forgot. That case got closed very quickly as a botched robbery, though no one seems to have inquired how it got botched or what happened to the murderous alleged robber. (As I once heard a comedian say about Lorena Bobbitt, the alleged robber should at least have been charged with littering.) And media seem to have dropped it like the proverbial hot potato. (FYI, cooked potatoes that have become cold are not especially appealing.)
But, apparently, murdering someone who works for the DNC during a [strike] Democratic primary [/strike] botched robbery is not as big a deal as simply murdering someone. It's certainly no act of war or treason, labels we apparently reserve for making the truth about a politician or government known to voters and taxpayers. But, fsck whoever held on to the information until the primary was over.
America, America, God shed His Grace on thee,
And crowned thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.
Lyrics written in 1885, to music that had been written by a church organist, when America's good was not at all crowned with brotherhood, but the seas were much cleaner. Or so I like to imagine.
The bits about good and God, I leave entirely to you, dear, beloved reader.
I believe this too, but I don't talk about it much
as it tends to make people scream "conspiracy theorist!" at me.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
First, IMO, anyone who resorts to "conspiracy theory" should be
soundly scolded and/or mocked. Second, so should anyone who resorts to personal attacks as a response to a substantive post, no matter how much he or she disagrees with it. Third, I did use the term "It's possible." I did not propound it as truth. So, I thought my wording covered that base. However, if it is not true, a hell of a lot of coincidences were involved.
BTW, has anyone even trying to find the killer? There are government cameras every few blocks in my neighborhood and I don't know how many private security cameras. I cannot imagine that D.C. has fewer. Labeling it a "botched robbery" is not exactly a murder investigation.
I've been wanting to yell "conspiracy theory"
at all my Putin blaming 'friends'...but have, so far, held my tongue.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
Just tell them Joe Mccarthy and J. Edgar Hoover called. They
want their Red Scare back.
Or, if you want to leave them either befuddled and/or googling, tell them the Overman Committee called. It wants its Red Scare back. http://caucus99percent.com/content/presidential-elections-and-liberals-l...
P.S. two more thoughts on your post
1. duckpin wrote a great post about not using "conspiracy theory." He or she traced the progression of an idea from musing to a theory. However, I just looked for it and cannot find it. I swear, the search function on this board exists solely to frustrate me. How's that for a theory?)
2. If you let name callers silence you, the terrorists win. Speaking only for myself, I don't care what people call me. I mean, sure, I can be hurt. However, calling me names is not going to stop me from saying what I think and mean. If I cannot do that, I see no point in posting on a political message board at all.
Sometimes I get tired of having the same fight.
Especially when I can predict all the moves, not because I'm so smart, but because I've gone through the fight so many times...well, it reminds me of that old joke about the guys in prison who have told the same jokes so many times that they've numbered them and just yell out numbers rather than telling the joke, to save time.
I was tired of this fight back when it was Wellstone.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I get tired of having the same discussions, too.
In a board discussion, it would be nice if I could just link back to earlier posts having the same discussion, like the one with duckpin about the term "conspiracy theory." I need a better way of keeping track of prior posts because the search function....oh, I already said that, didn't I?
ETA: derp. The discussion I had with duckpin on this was on a thread I started myself and totes forgot about.
http://caucus99percent.com/content/theory-conspiracy-theory-or-healthy-c...
But you are right, nonetheless.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
On this issue, I am right for me.
Only you know if I am right for you.
OMG! It really WAS the Russians!
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