The Green Party thing again

So why should we create a new party if we've already got the Green Party?

Please take a look at the newest piece in Counterpunch, The Stein Campaign and the Fight for Green Party Independence by Brandy Baker. Please give this piece a solid read before commenting.

The piece itself appears to have been prompted by Stein's championing of a recount in three of the northern states Trump won this month. This was done without the permission of the Green Party itself:

During the call, Jill Stein told the steering committee that she was approached by election activists who thought that there was fraud in the states of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Stein wanted the Green Party to open up a new bank account as political parties can take donations up to $10,000 and the Stein campaign could only take $2700 to file suits to demand recounts in these states.

One of the Steering Committee members suggested consulting legal counsel, and Stein immediately suggested an attorney she already had in mind. The Steering committee met on the phone with this attorney the next day. Reportedly, there was a lot of pressure for the Steering Committee to pass this. Stein, Cobb, and Ben Manski, a long time Green activist, would go on to heavily lobby various members of the Steering Committee to pass this scheme.

Fortunately, the Steering Committee did not. 5 no, 3 yes, and 1 abstain.

Let's be plain here. The Green Party does not support its candidates, and so the candidates themselves are therefore hardly to be blamed if they do not follow the recommendations of the Green Party. In the end, everyone loses with this scheme, because nobody really represents anyone or anything, neither Jill Stein nor the Green Party's Steering Committee, and the Green Party remains five people in a room as a result. If this sounds like a "pox on all their houses" position I'm taking, that's because there is a big problem with the way the Green Party does its business. There is of course a far larger problem with the way the duopoly parties do their business; I'll get to that later.

The name "David Cobb" should raise a BIG red flag with anyone who has the least interest in internal Green Party politics. Back in 2004, you see, David Cobb was a BENEFICIARY of the "let's have a tiny group decide everything for everyone" Green Party way of business. Carol Miller and Forrest Hill are quite clear on how the national convention in Milwaukee was rigged to permit Cobb's nomination as Presidential candidate for that year. David Cobb is the Green Party's "me, not us," communicative capitalism component.

Brandy Baker wants to focus upon the Green Party's independence, or lack thereof, from the Democratic Party. A far bigger problem is that barely anybody belongs to the Green Party. Practically all believers in partisan politics in the US are committed to the "take over the Democratic Party" strategy pursued by Bernie Sanders, which leaves next to nothing for the Green Party. The problems Baker complains about are going to persist as long as the Green Party remains tiny. Her sallies against "NGO culture" will be to no avail as long as "NGO culture" is far larger than the Green Party itself.

Granted, it's encouraging that the Green Party passed "Amendment 835." A political revolution will be necessary to change the Green Party's situation, and the revolution is greatly facilitated by the promotion of ecosocialism:

In late spring, those on the left wing of the Party fought on the GNC (Green National Committee) for the GNC to pass amendment 835, which would make the Green Party eco-socialist and anti-capitalist. There were many young people who were drawn to the Party because of this fight and an on-line petition urging the GNC to pass 835. It garnered over 1100 signatures in two and a half days, some from Greens and many saying that they would join the Green Party if the GNC passed 835.

The Green Party is still five people in a room, however, and so its endorsement of ecosocialism will have a correspondingly tiny impact. The next step is to pass an amendment democratizing the Green Party.

Some of you might be asking why we bother with a political party at all. Couldn't we just promote the political revolution without one? The truth of the matter is that some form of organization will be necessary to allow any forthcoming revolution to succeed. Revolutionary organization can be as horizontal as you please. It needs to be an electoral organization in some way because the "will of the people" is too important to be left to the people who currently call themselves "elected representatives." Even the Zapatistas, whose disdain for Mexico's political class is habitual, have "juntas de buen gobierno."

The first people I would blame for the Green Party's plight would be all of the armchair critics who want to paint the Green Party into a corner without doing anything about it. Jill Stein was on the ballot in 44 states this year. How do you know the Green Party is hopeless unless you join it?

My proposals for an alternative party here have been motivated by the general lack of interest in the Green Party. If nobody is interested in the Green Party, they aren't, and I will then have to work with that. The alternative to revolution is dark ages, which are looking mighty likely at this point. (This is so because the Green Party is the least of the world's problems with political corruption.) What's the plan?

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The Wisconsin Board of Elections or some such oligarch front is saying no hand counting. Jill Stein is taking them to court. There's something big and rotten and smelly that they're trying to hide.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Wisconsin election clerks and staffs are already going to be working evenings and weekends to finish the recount on time. Why did Jill (Hillary's dupe) wait until so late to get this brainwave? Hmm?

If Hillary can't win, she's going to take all of us down with her? Maximum disruption of everything? If a state recount isn't done on time, the state can lose its electoral votes. So wait until the last moment to demand a recall, and hope they can't make it. Nice. And typical Hillary

Little green men or Boris and Natasha wandering into election offices and getting access to anything? Right! In the rural counties that Trump carried, the election staff know pretty much everyone. Sure, they'd let some stranger mess around! Not. Maybe we forgot to wear our tinfoil hats and we were hacked - because our voting machines aren't linked to the web.

Our last statewide recount changed a whole 300 votes. Something definitely smells, and it's Hillary and Jill.

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is refusing a hand recount? Any ideas? And why is Trump throwing out accusations of voter fraud by Hillary, yet doesn't want a recount himself? What about that statement by Bannon that only people with property should be allowed to vote? Does Trump have any respect for democracy? We know Hillary doesn't, but that doesn't make Trump ok.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Deja's picture

My understanding is that they are not "forcing" counties to do a hand count.

What I cannot wrap my head around is the supposed fact that supposedly more votes were cast in four counties than there were registered voters.

In Texas, you have to be on the rolls or you cannot vote. Plus, do the count workers not compare each precinct or county or whatever totals to total number of people who actually voted and again against total registered voters? To me, that should be standard operating procedure.

On the funny side, I'm not entirely sure that Trump understands that even though he lost the popular vote, he actually won. He wants to be popular too lol.

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The objection to the hand count is that it would take even longer, and they're up against the clock already, given when Jill decided to do this. It's a significant burden on the local election clerks already.

She's essentially attacking the small rural municipalities. Where people know each other. And she admits that she has no evidence of any wrongdoing.

And the strong Republican counties, which usually could be questioned, didn't go strongly for Trump this year. It was the rural areas, where people have been hurting a lot.

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Deja's picture

Are the rolls old school ledger-style books, for lack of proper term, or are they a computerized database?

I can see pro and con for each. Just curious.

I have to say that if, IF, the allegations regarding 1000 or so more votes than actual registered voters for even one country are true, then there is something rotten in the state of WI (and every other state it happened in).

Frankly, I'd love nothing more than for there to be found evidence that votes were padded for Dems, but I'm thinking it just might swing the other way this time around.

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I don't know where you're getting that "allegation," and may have misunderstood whatever you heard. I haven't heard anything along those lines, and it doesn't sound possible. We have to show ID and sign in before we get a ballot. And as I said, people can register at the polls when they come to vote. You may have heard something about a lot of people registering on Election Day, so that they weren't on the pre-printed lists that we sign in on, and misunderstood it. That doesn't mean they weren't registered when they voted. The municipal clerks are local people, they are very fussy about doing it right, and especially in the rural areas that carried Trump (and which voted strongly for Bernie, another Change candidate), they know pretty much everyone.

Anyone can "allege" anything ugly, as you are, but that doesn't make everything alleged real. The GOP establishment wasn't exactly supporting Trump, anyway, they were lining up behind Hillary. The usually strong GOP counties in WI weren't as strong as usual for Trump.

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Deja's picture

The discrepancy, which was attributed by local officials to human error, added over 1,000 votes to Donald Trump which were then taken away when the official election results were posted.

My bad on the "registered voters". It was more votes for president than overall votes.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/11/26/election-fraud-complaint-filed-pe...

And the rotten comment was a play on the state of Denmark saying.

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That sounds appropriate.

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That's the scandal here.

And I voted for Jill.

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Free advertisement

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Bisbonian's picture

For her to be helping Hillary, you have to know that votes were flipped from Hillary to Trump. Equally, or even more likely, votes were flipped from Trump to Hillary, or from Stein to Hillary. But in fact, we have no evidence of any of that. Counting is the only way to know.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

A recount does nothing for the Green Party.

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Bisbonian's picture

of the popular vote...and more importantly, by being able to point to proof of Democrat cheating? I would think he would. And Stein is trying to advocate for fair elections...I think she stands to gain just by showing that she thinks it is important. The Green Party is not playing.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

link

The Green Party cannot build the political power necessary for the transformative changes we need by allying with two capitalist parties that serve the interests of the wealthy. That is why it is imperative that the Green Party is independent of those parties. We stay independent to give people an alternative to the corruption of two money-based parties. Greens reject donations from corporations and their political action committees to ensure we are accountable to the people and so that the people’s agenda is not superseded by the corporate agenda.

There are significant electoral reforms needed to make elections more democratic and more representative of the people. While we support electoral reforms, including how the vote is counted, we do not support the current recount being undertaken by Jill Stein.

The decision to pursue a recount was not made in a democratic or a strategic way, nor did it respect the established decision making processes and structures of the Green Party of the United States (GPUS). The recount has created confusion about the relationship between the Green and Democratic parties because the states chosen for the recount are only states in which Hillary Clinton lost. There were close races in other states such as New Hampshire and Minnesota where Clinton won, but which were not part of the recount. And this recount does not address the disenfranchisement of voters; it recounts votes that were already counted rather than restoring the suffrage of voters who were prevented from voting.

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Alligator Ed's picture

the states chosen for the recount are only states in which Hillary Clinton lost. There were close races in other states such as New Hampshire and Minnesota where Clinton won, but which were not part of the recount.

If Stein was serious she would have demanded recounts in those two states at least.

Conclusion: she is a sell-out, masquerading as a warrior for fair elections.

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ThoughtfulVoter's picture

Because only Hillary can benefit

You hit the nail on the head. And this is what has us all worried.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Is that we already know that providing evidence of election fraud against Hillary accomplishes nothing. How much fucking evidence of election fraud in the Democratic primary do we need before the legal justice system does something? Or till the media reports it? Obviously, neither has happened, and everybody is sweeping the most blatant voter purges I've ever seen under the rug and moving on to the general.

I know Jill has no standing to challenge the Dem primaries. But I also know that Hillary will never be held accountable for anything illegal she does. Trump might, but Hill won't. If you need more proof of that, check out the two attempts by the FBI to hold her accountable for other things. The media will never subject her to the criticism she deserves; the legal justice system will never treat her the way it would treat any one of us.

Therefore, if Stein finds evidence of Hillary wrongdoing, you can count on it that it will be ignored/not acted upon. Trump, however, is a different matter. Ordinarily, as a billionaire, same rules would apply to him as Hillary--but he's standing in her way. So if there's any justification for getting rid of him, you can be sure it will be used.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Pluto's Republic's picture

I thought this was about "The Green Panty Thing."

You never make it clear where you're coming from, Cass. Are they a success or a failure?

Americans today don't so show up to vote for Parties or Platforms. They vote for leaders, even leaders that lie to them will do. A leader doesn't need more than one election cycle to win; even a loser wins as long as he's a leader-type. Bernie could have won in a single cycle, without a Party. Trying to build a Party by running "adequate" serial candidates is not a winning formula. Never was. Never will be.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Cassiodorus's picture

Oh and I don't need to stand for or against the recount. The officials will do what they do regardless of where I stand. I'm more interested in revolution. I don't particularly care at this point how it starts; my interest in political parties is an interest in the quality of the end-result.

I have to say, though, that if you're against the recount, the presence of David Cobb's name in the recount discussion should reinforce your opinion that the recount is a bad idea.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Pluto's Republic's picture

I think the people should have complete confidence in their elections, whatever it takes. If People lose confidence, past the point of the wide-spread apathy in the US, watch out. In recent world history, elections-gone-wild are a national flashpoint that significantly increases the odds of a serious revolt.

That's the trend, and the Establishment bubble-people are pushing it with their stonewalling and propaganda. In their arrogance, they are authoring their own doom.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Cassiodorus's picture

Election fraud happens. Worst case: should the Mexicans have confidence in their democracy?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Pluto's Republic's picture

And they are somewhat competitive, as well, and swayed by corporate interests. That's not a sensible way to conduct the election of a "central" government president, by any metric. Its very structure defies trust.

Either separate the Presidential election from State elections, or accept that the US President is more selected than elected. (By hook or crook.) It won't solve the third-party problem, but a federal ballot with central oversight will mitigate spiraling distrust among the electorate.

Or not. You are the expert here.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
riverlover's picture

The three men in a room sort of governance. So at least one of those three went to prison (I think). So much for legislation coming out of NY, even though we pay the State Legislators fairly well for a part-time job.

I went Green because of Bernie. But I have no commitment to the Party if there is a hint of corruption at the top. A mobile voter here.

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boriscleto's picture

And one of Cuomo's top aides will be going to prison. No chance of getting Prince Andrew though...

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" In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy "

Cassiodorus's picture

Links? Evidence?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

riverlover's picture

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Cassiodorus's picture

So this isn't about the Green Party. OK.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

that the Green Party resembles the Democratic neoliberal establishment, but with more green.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Taking over the Green Party and outvoting the Demogreens should be a cinch -- if anyone were interested in actually making it happen.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

That would probably be just as useful as taking over the Green Party now.

I'm with featheredsprite: Stein has seriously screwed the pooch here.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

The point of taking over the Green Party would be to deprive the demogreens of their power over said party, and if you run the math you could see that it should be really quite easy. Unless things have changed rather drastically this year, most of the "state Green Parties" outside of California are mere Potemkin villages -- it wouldn't take more than fifty people per state (and that's a maximum) to take each state over.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

featheredsprite's picture

And I really worry about where the money is coming from.

It looks to me like Jill is destroying the Green Party. So now what? We can still run for local offices and win as many as we can. That is a good thing. But the idea of the GP as a national political force to be reckoned with has blown up in our faces.

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

Cassiodorus's picture

if it's concluded there was election fraud. Do they take back all their nice promises to Trump and inaugurate Clinton? Or do they hope to cover the whole thing up, deny Clinton the Presidency, and hope it goes away? Either outcome could be ugly for the elites.

My opinion is that since I don't have any say-so over the outcome, it doesn't matter to me. Like I said in the diary, the next step is to democratize the Green Party.

As for Jill helping Hillary, the whole matter of the Green Party helping the Democratic Party was pretty sad -- twelve years ago. Back then, we didn't do anything either, because practically nobody cared. I'm not sure anything has changed in that regard.

Oh and David Cobb? Gah.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

featheredsprite's picture

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Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.

Chaos for its own sake. Or Hillary trying to take everything down with her.

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"Either outcome could be ugly for the elites."

The guarantee here? More hostile division in the population; another step in discrediting Democracy. There is surely a strongman being selected behind the scenes right now, and we'll be hearing from him 2018 at the latest. That's my bet.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

Cassiodorus's picture

Don't you want to know what really happened?

Remember in 2000 in Florida? They finally determined that Al Gore would have been President had he had the ganas to demand a FULL recount and see it through to the end.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

and i mean a real one, not a Trump lightweight.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

... and it was legal as anything ... it's called Voter ID.

Preventing people entitled to vote from voting by enacting vote suppression measures with known partisan bias, in order to benefit from the known partisan bias as a side effect, that's control fraud ... just as the Big Fraud in the Panic of 2008 was committed by those in charge of the big Investment Banks.

Without a clear connecting of the dots on how the recount helps raise the profile of the election rigging taking place in this country, I don't see how it is anything other than building an email address list of people who were willing to donate to a vote recount that was essentially doomed to failure because of willingness to believe in various hidden conspiracies instead of the massive conspiracy taking place in plain sight.

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-- Virtually, etc. B)

Anja Geitz's picture

To highlight some of the problems that seem to continually plague the Green Party's efforts in moving the party forward. It does leave me wondering though if the problem is the Green Party itself or the very nature of organizing any kind of political party from the grassroots up.

If I remember my history right, the only reason the founding fathers ever got that constitutional thing off the ground was by being able to get the competing interests to take a back seat and agree on what the bigger issue was going forward. One would think the bigger issue here was obvious so I'm surprised we can't find some real leadership to get that idea across to a larger audience and manage the useless infighting better.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

riverlover's picture

People came and than things fizzled. Very disheartening. But it tells us what we are up against.

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ThoughtfulVoter's picture

Sure, the election ended. But now we have focused from an election to the future of our government.

In my view and my involvement, I don't call it a fizzle.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…in the US is physically impossible. There are legal and procedural barriers, according to some academics, that cannot be achieved. This has been put into place by the duopoly over many, many decades.

This can happen to any country that doesn't stay on top of it. No only doesn't the US stay on top of fair representation, but the Supreme Court has handed down recent decisions that seal the deal on the premature failure of Third parties.

What the US needs most of all is nuance in government. With so many people of so many ethnic cultures — Americans need more than two options to represent everyone. It doesn't matter how many Parties you throw at this structural dilemma. Bicameral governments like simply do not scale to size and variation in a nation. You need something that looks more like a very modern parliament or coalition government.

At some point, the third party people will figure it out. It's not their fault they can't make a go of it. The system really IS rigged, but not in the way people think it is. IMO, of course.

By way of example, Russia has a parliamentary government. But they have a very popular strongman President, in Putin. This has suppressed the growth of Parties in Russia. To remedy this, Russia has decided to change their foundational system (constitution) so that small Parties are properly funded by government to introduce more diversity and fresh ideas for the future. Their Party barriers had been set too high. Fortunately for them, they have a Parliament so that several "platforms" or "constituencies" can be represented and considered at the same time, at the degree of fair representation. Nuance.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Anja Geitz's picture

At hearing this. Although I haven't really researched what the alternatives could be, I'd prefer we figure it out before the pitchforks and barricades.

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Pluto's Republic's picture

I notice that people cannot hear certain words yet or wrap their minds around certain realities — especially when trying to evolve systems they've relied on for their entire lives.

Things change. Populations grow. Life spans increase. Technologies transform processes that were once done by candlelight. Americans, in particular, struggle with this.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
josb's picture

Recently my brother commented how Americans seem to be obsessed with their past, in a way that more mature countries are not. As an example he gave the American obsession with the Constitution, as if it's holy writ, outdated yet nearly impossible to change. Another example is shows like "Sleepy Hollow" and "Turn" which more or less glorify the period around the Civil War. In the Netherlands, we also have a constitution ("Grondwet"), but while pretty much everybody is aware that we have it (it is taught in schools), nobody really talks about it in daily life, and we certainly don't have shows around it. No "Avonturen van Willem van Oranje" on TV. Instead, people tend to talk about the recent past, the present and the future when discussing politics. As a Dutch citizen, this all seems odd to me, given the enormous problems the US are facing. Parliamentary democracy may not be perfect, but I sure wish the US was one. Gotta stop glorifying this broken system and face the music, America. Your duopoly is leading you towards bloody revolt.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…as an example [my brother] gave the American obsession with the Constitution, as if it's holy writ, outdated yet nearly impossible to change.

Yikes. You don't want to get me started on the Constitution. I'm the token dump-the-obsolete-US Constitution person at c99.

You're brother is right, though. As it becomes more and more impossible for Americans to read or understand "Eighteenth Centurish," the obsession grows, while the document can easily be conflated with the Bible.

In the US, only nine partisan politically-appointed judges are allowed to translate the ancient US Constitution into modern English. And their translations — regardless how biased or manufactured or expedient for their favorite ideology — instantly become the permanent law of the land. The US Supreme Court judges have life terms, so designated by a Constitution written when the human life span was only 45 years, and there was still hope that the sovereignty of each generation would be established by updating or replacing it along the way.

All in all, it's little wonder Our Corporate Overlords love the Slave-Owner-Appeasement Constitution so very much.

The brainwashing that elevated the Constitution to the level of a cult religion, has been going on for only a few decades. But it has been an enormously successful propaganda campaign. I think of it in the fashion of: "Give the people a Constitution they cannot read with comprehension, and tell them it is the only thing protecting their Liberty."

"Constitutional Obsession Disorder" is a plague made in the modern world. It's a Neocon think tank creation. Given that the US Constitution directly confers no human rights upon the American people — the lack of which is the cause of much suffering in the US — the grip of the obsession is very sad.

As a Dutch citizen, this all seems odd to me, given the enormous problems the US are facing. Parliamentary democracy may not be perfect, but I sure wish the US was one.

That's a kind wish. Thank you. I wish so, as well.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
mimi's picture

started to say that many of the social (justice and economically) inequality problems the US has is related to its consitution (of course in my uneducated simple words) I got mocked, or put down and disliked on TOP. That was quite early on.
Never changed. Now we have for the first time at least some folks discussing it and admitting that those who argue it "may have a point". Progress!!!!

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josb's picture

I concur with your eloquently stated opinion, and I will pass this on to my brother when I speak with him again; I predict he will be pleased.

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The party overwhelmingly passed amendment 835. Then Jill Stein unilaterally violated the spirit (letter ?) of the amendment by trying to collaborate with Bernie, championing a recount etc. So the party "structure" is amorphous and fungible...what's the point ?

I would like to see the DSA become a party. "Democratic Socialists of America" makes party principles clear as day and member positions transparent. Comprehensive participation is written into the by laws and noone gets to take over shit without consent.

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ThoughtfulVoter's picture

I thought maybe the United Socialists Party was going to get off the ground...

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Aramis Wyler's picture

Futurist Party LogoI'd like to see the Futurist party come up, myself. It holds a lot of the same tenants as the socialist party, but has less baggage and is more forward looking. I'd say it had better structure, but really the socialist party had a fairly impressive structure till the McCarthy witch hunt.

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Currently reading: How to Create a Mind - Ray Kurzweil
shaharazade's picture

and it clarified some of my concerns about the Green party's resistance or inability to becoming a viable independent political party. I'm not a big fan of the NGO culture or the ivory tower academic type of liberalism. I know some people get their knickers in a twist populism =fascism but I do not think this is necessarily so. Moveon is just another Democratic veal pen. I want nothing to do with them.

I watched the Green national convention and was appalled at how anti-democratic and insular it seemed. Assange asked at one point during the lousy feed didn't you test this? I had been thinking along these same lines throughout their presidential campaign. I also do not like David Cobb one bit. He comes off like a he's just another weasel pol. Reg of the Peoples Judean Front.

How do these so called delegates I saw at their convention get elected or do they? The structure of the Green party seems quite opaque. It's like if I register as a Green then what? Do they have local meetings? Do they recruit members and run candidates? I feel it's like a private org. that has no interest in expanding grassroots level or becoming a viable third political party. Is it just a vanity party for 'professional' liberals?

This recount business pissed me right off. I realize that the duopoly electoral system is rigged but what will this do other then let people know what they already know if they have a brain in their head. Whose going to execute the recount in the states? Why should Jill Stein be in cahoots with the likes of moveon or any org tied to the Democratic party? Will the corrupt party machines be in charge? They ought to get Jimmy Carter to lead the recount or maybe the UN. Oh yeah the US doesn't do international law. Once again this is so murky and opaque that it sets my bs meter on full tilt.

The Greens in Germany seem to be a viable party. They may not be a majority but they have a presence in parliament. What can people who want the Greens in America to be a valid democratic, representative alternative do to make this happen? The time is ripe for a challenge to the duopoly so why not build the Green party instead of messing with backroom deals with the rotten to the core Democrat's. Too bad they did not put this much effort at independent fund raising, running candidates on all levels, recruiting and maybe getting some decent techies before this fiasco of an election.

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Cassiodorus's picture

and then, swiftly thereafter, figuring out who your allies are in the effort. For the most part, mine are in other states: Carl Romanelli, Howie Hawkins. The only Green individual I know who is on my side and still on the land of the living in CA is Jared Laiti, and he's all the way up in Marin County.

They had a state plenary in Ventura (California) a couple of weekends ago. It was maybe a two- or three-hour drive away. I completely missed it. Oh well. Maybe next time.

Anyway shaharazade this is an excellent comment -- I wish I could rec it twice.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

The time is ripe for a challenge to the duopoly so why not build the Green party instead of messing with backroom deals with the rotten to the core Democrat's.

But others may. I will stay tuned.
thx.

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detroitmechworks's picture

So we must be happy with what we CAN get.

That worked so great with the Economic Stimulus...
And RomneyCare.
And "Ending" the war in Iraq
And Measured responses to police violence.

Half loaves all, snatched back the instant the attention was gone.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

"as long as the Green Party remains tiny. "

At least in USA politics. The vast majority of people see it as fringe and it is. A revolution is in either taking over the mock "Democratic" party or a new party based on dropping the divide and conquer left/right lens; base it on common elements such as rejection of corruption, abandoning eternal war, ending Wall Street rule, police and government violence and interferences in daily life, the agitation/propaganda apparatus we call our mainstream press, and the like. As an old Sufi joke punchline had it (and it runs deeper than just politics, but for now) "when danger threatens it threatens all alike."

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

already we have posters on this board alone saying they can never make common cause on anything with anyone who voted for Trump. So, are we destined to remained divided and impotent? Because I think only unity will get us anywhere, yet even the comparatively tiny group--made even tinier by Sanders-- that is sometimes referred to as "the left of the left" cannot unify.

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and why the Democratic Party isn't democratic.

Agreement. A certain range of core points agreed upon. Without that it's just a matter of random issues coming up with nothing to soften disagreement: we're absent the big, core, ideas as touchstone.

The Repubs hit on their big idea following on the John Birch Society's statement of a clear agenda in the 60s.

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Orwell: Where's the omelette?

when my FOX-lovin' RWNJ dear friend and I talked over the course of the recent election, we found we had much more in common than opposed. The corporate stranglehold on our nation is clear to a lot of right wingers.

So what were your objections to the unification of the 99% again?

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unless it unifies with the right around issues. BTW, I am not the least bit surprised that you found common ground.

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Not so long ago, you seemed to me to be of the view that the Green Party was unlikely ever to get anyone elected and gatekeepers would prevent outsiders from trying to change that. Therefore, you were recommending a new party. At least that was what I understood you to be saying.

Now, you seem to be saying that you are recommending a new party because no one here seems to be interested in the Green Party. Speaking only for myself, if I am not interested in the Green Party, it's because you--as I understood you, anyway--helped convinced me there was little point in being interested in it.

I did vote for Jill because that was the best use I thought I could make of my vote on this go round. However, the Greens have been around for a while--30 to 35 years-- and even ran a liberal icon for President, but they still have not gotten very far. I'm not even talking about the Oval Office, but I don't think they are very far in Congress or in state legislatures.

Then again, the hard reality is that no new party has gotten far since formation of the Republican Party in 1854. So, maybe it is not the fault of the Greens that they are not further along.

Bottom line, I just don't know what to think about anything connected to the Greens right now.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Now, you seem to be saying that you are recommending a new party because no one here seems to be interested in the Green Party.

Basically, nobody is interested in replacing a structure oriented toward gatekeepers with a democratic, popular, and attractive party structure. They could be, but they' aren't.

t's because you--as I understood you, anyway--helped convinced me there was little point in being interested in it.

Then you misunderstood what I was saying. I explained that we had something around 45% of the Sanders supporters telling pollsters they weren't going to vote for Clinton, so where were they going to go? However, I didn't see any interest at all in Stein, and so that's what I based my ideas for a new party upon. Blaming me for your lack of interest in the Green Party would at any rate be a bad ploy were you actually to do such a thing. If the Green Party has been around 36 years, were you not at all interested in them that whole time?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

I thought I saw a contradiction, so I tried to get clarity for purposes of going forward.

I would vastly prefer the most practical course. At first glance, working within the Green Party to change it seems more practical than starting a new party. However, attempting the impossible is not practical.

If you tell me that people cannot possibly change the Green Party from within because gatekeepers will not allow that, I can understand that statement. I would also defer to your view in that case because you have had experience working within the Party since 1992 and I have not. I would still make up my own mind, but your view would be influential because of my lack of experience. It's not a matter of blame. Blaming others is not my style, anyway.

What I think you are saying is that trying to change the Green Party from within may be like trying to change the Democratic Party from within. With or without an influx of new, enthusiastic people, one way or another, it just ain't gonna happen, so fuhgeddaboudit.

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Cassiodorus's picture

You said:

If you tell me that people cannot possibly change the Green Party from within because gatekeepers will not allow that

So what precisely did I tell you? Could you supply a suggestive (but accurate) quote of something I actually said?

We could change the Green Party from within if there were enough of us, but to this date very, very few people have shown the least bit of interest in the Green Party even though it would take far fewer people to change the Green Party than it would to change the Democratic Party.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Cassiodorus's picture

Now, you seem to be saying that you are recommending a new party because no one here seems to be interested in the Green Party.

Basically, nobody is interested in replacing a structure oriented toward gatekeepers with a democratic, popular, and attractive party structure. They could be, but they' aren't.

t's because you--as I understood you, anyway--helped convinced me there was little point in being interested in it.

Then you misunderstood what I was saying. I explained that we had something around 45% of the Sanders supporters telling pollsters they weren't going to vote for Clinton, so where were they going to go? However, I didn't see any interest at all in Stein, and so that's what I based my ideas for a new party upon. Blaming me for your lack of interest in the Green Party would at any rate be a bad ploy were you actually to do such a thing. If the Green Party has been around 36 years, were you not at all interested in them that whole time?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

SparkyGump's picture

I've only been paying attention to the Greens since this year. I voted Stein but want to hear more information about them before I'll call myself a "Green". I don't think there will ever be a political party I'll ever be completely satisfied with but I draw the line at trust. Imho, our country would benefit in the long run from having three or even four political parties.

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The real SparkyGump has passed. It was an honor being your human.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

Cassiodorus's picture

that the Green Party itself didn't want any part of the recount. This is all on Jill Stein, Ben Manski, and David Cobb and maybe a couple of state parties.

Oh and this:

http://www.flowersforsenate.org/greens_speak_out_recount

Please do note the extensive list of signatures at the bottom of the petition.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Do you know anything in depth about Cobb?
The guy is wrong in so many ways.
I really wonder about him.

Is he just a f***-up, or is he something worse?
thx.

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Cassiodorus's picture

The Green Party is a tiny group within American politics which wants to have a political party which actually stands for something substantive -- the Ten Key Values -- instead of what the Democratic Party stands for, which is "we're slightly better than the Republican Party" (as we all know).

David Cobb is part of an even tinier group within American politics which respects the Ten Key Values but which doesn't want the Green Party to stand in the way of the goals of the Democratic Party, in its eternal quest to be slightly better than the Republican Party. Those people are what I've been calling "demogreens."

It's always good to keep in mind the "Vote Kerry and Cobb" letter, signed in the 2004 election run-up:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug04/OpenLetter0802.htm

Look at that list of signatories!

Medea Benjamin
Peter Coyote
John Eder
Daniel Ellsberg
Angela Gilliam
Kevin Gray
Tom Hayden
Elizabeth Horton Sheff
Rabbi Michael Lerner
Robert McChesney
Norman Solomon

It's like a who's-who of the Baby Boom and pre-Baby Boom "Left"! It was also a real eye-opener that they did this, given how little distance actually separated Kerry from Bush Junior.

At any rate, here's David Cobb's Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cobb

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

He would seem to be a big obstacle to reform.
Will Stein go away and leave it all to Cobb?

Don't see that happening. Bright lights, big money.
Jimmy Reed said it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcGW1sUEZgk

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Cassiodorus's picture

given the Steering Committee's rejection of the Stein-Cobb-Manski plan to fund the election recount petition.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

What I should have said is that Stein is the face of Green Party to most people.
And that Cobb appears to have a lot of pull with her.

I don't know if Stein has left Green Party, or what that would mean, if anything.

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http://www.flowersforsenate.org/greens_speak_out_recount

Seems to be right to the point.
If there is to be a revolt within GP this is a good place to start, and a petition signer is an ally.

Or is there no real interest? I will stay tuned.
thx.

PS. I signed the petition - easy to do!

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riverlover's picture

like a non-fillable form for me. Good if there is an internal revolt. GP needs some radical changes in structure, it seems. Perhaps lack of growth is due to a fiefdom center?

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Cassiodorus's picture

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

shaharazade's picture

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

riverlover's picture

long views. Houston, we have a problem. No Party was talking concretely about easing our childrens' or grandchildrens' lives, no real talk about educational services that can guarantee a job, and lip service to student debt. No concrete talk of the killer that is corporatism. No talk about pollution and its consequences of water that is not consumable, a bill we all have to pay. No talk about 8+ warfronts. No talk about MIC running the government, is that about right? We have dead political parties, not responsive to the individual ever. And they wonder why we are frustrated.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

It's clear they said "No," and Stein went ahead.

Second, of course Cass is right and having 5 people, or even 10, decide the course of the entire Party is a bad system for a lot of reasons. So while I may not blame the Green Party, it's obvious they have at least one structural problem.

Third, and I really hate saying this--it's too late to save the Green Party. Here's why: most Americans never heard of the Green Party before this recount. The fact that the Green Party itself said "no" to the recount is not widely known--in fact, even I didn't know about it till this essay. For much of America, their first impression of the Green party is that they are trying to recount the vote in states where Trump beat Clinton. In other words, they're trying to help Hillary Clinton. That's what people on the right will see. That's what many people on the left will see. Those who like this idea, who want to try to install Hillary even now, are going to have zero commitment to the Green Party in the future. They will do what Clintonites always do: take whatever advantages they're given and have no sense of obligation to those who gave.

That leaves the people who a)aren't dedicated to Clinton b)are on the left and c) like the idea of this recount as the only potential supporters of the Green Party, while the populist right, a great deal of the populist left, and all the shitty partisan Democrats who will take this recount and then spit on both Stein and the Green Party afterwards, will NOT support the Green Party.

In other words, Stein has just destroyed the Green Party's reason for being: to oppose corrupt Democrats and offer an alternative--because after this, most of America will believe the Green Party helped Hillary Clinton, the emblem of the corrupt Democratic establishment.

It's time for either a new party or a new organization that's not a party.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cassiodorus's picture

I thought the Green Party was doomed for sure in 2004 when it ran David Cobb for President. (And the fact that my good Green friend Walt Sheasby died that year wasn't much of a help either.) But it came back! It endorsed ecosocialism and ran a Presidential candidate getting a full percent of the vote.

But it did appear, as Bernie Sanders endorsed Hillary Clinton earlier this year, that very few of those who were cut loose by Sanders were the least bit interested in the Green Party. This is what motivated my recommendation of a new party. So yes I agree.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

In other words, Stein has just destroyed the Green Party's reason for being: to oppose corrupt Democrats and offer an alternative--because after this, most of America will believe the Green Party helped Hillary Clinton, the emblem of the corrupt Democratic establishment.

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shaharazade's picture

Maybe too late for this election cycle which if nothing else has shown just how disgusted people are with our corrupt, rotten to the core anti-democratic duopoly. A huge percentage are also aware of the fact that the establishment media (news speak) is nothing but a propaganda arm for the global oligarchy. I saw a Pew poll where only 30% of the people all demographics said they think the established media is full of bs.

Granted most people are still clinging to the red blue breakdown but if you look at whats going on politically globally people are resisting the grip of the ruling elite and their anti-democratic neoliberalism. They may not think in terms the terms of the leftist ideological intellectuals, neoliberalism etc. but they know a screw when it bites them and it has.

The ruling elite, the Davo's crowd, everywhere have overplayed their hand. The Russians did it and this latest absurdity about 'fake' news by foreign provocateurs who are rigging the already fixed electoral system just shows me that they are running scared. Things have gotten to a point where a third party and outsider social movements are going to keep growing. Bernie's popularity is a good example as is NoDAPL and BLM. Like I said in my comment above I don't believe that populist movements are doomed to be fascistic. Maybe we need to stop looking for strong leaders at this point and start thinking beyond the existing political status quo. Politics are not static they like history are all about change. entrenched pols loves to talk about the 'way forward' but humans are the ones who instigate change always.

Why not try to democratize the Greens? As Cassie said there does need to be a political organization and a structure in place. Howard Dean the sellout said when I went to hear him talk 'I'm taking back my country and the vehicle I'm using is the Democratic party'. That didn't work as the Democratic party is owned and run by the very entities who see democracy as an impediment to their god awful global agenda.

Bottom up local and state seems to me to be the best way to build both social movements and a populist party to represent . Nationally at the federal level seems impossible as it's the center of the beast. That old hippie maxim comes to mind think global, act local the fake news media will not cover it but so what. With 60% of the population hip to their jive the world wide web comes into play. I'm kind of amazed at the strange bedfellows that are coming together to reject this madness. In my family, formerly solid Democratic, all of them thinks the Democrat's need to go. Just my thoughts on the Greens and the possibilities opening up in this time when everything is falling apart.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

And Hillary Clinton is the Typhoid Mary of political and moral credibility. She withers everything she touches. We have seen it repeatedly through this election cycle: important moral person A speaks out for Hillary. A lot of finger-waving at the bad people who don't support Hillary ensues. Important Moral Person A loses credibility. Hillary's numbers don't budge. This has happened with everyone from Michael Moore to John Lewis to Dolores Huerta--god, it even happened to Teflon Obama! The only way she ever gains credibility is to be contrasted with someone more visibly horrible--but she's great at draining the credibility from others. Bernie is an obvious example.

Now think about the Green Party. 68% of the population didn't know who Stein was at the time of the election. Now she's introduced to them on every mainstream channel as the person whose recount might overturn the election results. Your average American is not going to make the distinction between the candidate and the party, especially since I haven't seen anything in the mainstream press about the Green Party not supporting Stein's recount. They will assume, not unfairly I think, that the party of the candidate supports the actions of the candidate. And the actions of the candidate, especially since they're being taken in states where Trump won, not Hillary, clearly imply that the recount could reverse the election and bring us a Hillary Presidency. This message is being circulated by both major parties. Have you seen the emails? The email from the Dems was "We know how broken-hearted everyone was who supported Hillary, so we're supporting this recount." The reaction from the Trump voters is explosive and furious, because they think the recount might take the election away from Trump.

This is the environment in which 68% of America is being introduced to the Green Party. Whether you like it or Cass likes it or I like it or TrustVote.org likes it or Stein likes it, the fact is that America is being introduced to "Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein" as the person whose recount could overturn the election and give us a Hillary presidency. The Green Party is finally breaking through into the mainstream media--in the context of putting the most corrupt and hated Democrat in the country into office by overturning election results.

How do you think most of the country is going to feel about the Green Party now? When the Green Party claims to be against corruption, what do you think the reaction will be? When the Green Party criticizes the corruption of Democrats, what do you think the reaction will be? This is far, far worse than Cobb suggesting that Greens in swing states should vote for Kerry. Kerry wasn't hated, not like this. Kerry wasn't synonymous with corruption. And the 2004 election wasn't something that people desperately wanted to stop because it was causing them so much psychological strain (which has actually happened this cycle; the American Psychiatric Association put out guidelines to deal with the election stress, for God's sakes!) Worst of all, now they're doing the recount together with Hillary, and only in states where she lost!

We can nitpick on here all we want and say "Well, she can't challenge the primary, no standing" "Well, she can't recount NH, it's too late" "Well, she asked all the parties to join her in this recount, not just Dems"--none of that matters. When you're dealing in large-scale mass communications, it's the broad strokes that matter, especially when you're dealing with a bunch of corrupt assholes like the mainstream press, who have de-educated Americans for 30 years now by presenting the news at a level that roughly approximates drawing on the sidewalk with a big hunk of chalk. She's doing something that can't help Trump and can help Hillary. She's doing it with Hillary. If the Greens claim to be against the corrupt establishment going forward, the only response from the majority of Americans is going to be a snort.

What the fuck possible reason could there be to use the Green Party now? Like I said to Cass, you might as well buy the rights to New Coke and start trying to distribute it.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver