it's behind so many of our problems that it may yet offer solutions.

would "black markets", those deemed illegal, where there is really no regulation, except you can't do that, like sell drugs? Would that not be a "free market", where anything goes, as does in the illegal drug "market"? Where one literally, "kills" their competition?

Black markets are real, the do in fact impact our world economy, heck look at the opium production out of Afghanistan and the rise in heroine usage in the US and Europe.

Black markets are something we as a society don't seem to want to talk about or acknowledge they exist, they are comprised of people, not the state, and exist independent of the state, ie "free" of real regulation because what ever regulation does exist, doesn't matter nor is it required for the market to operate or even exist.

In a nut shell, illegal markets could effective be described as "free markets", because they are free of anything, as long as one doesn't get caught. it's certainly the idea that comes to my mind when anyone talks about "free markets", I envision people going round "killing" their competition. (I'm sure many of the 1% would like it to be that way in all markets....)

What do you think about black markets = free markets?

I have been thinking about this over the years and haven't seen much discussion about it anywhere really. I admit, I'm ignorant, that is I don't know, hence my desire to spark a discussion.

But then I'd have to wonder about things like: How much influence does the state have in creating black markets in a variety of ways, including how they decide to sanction some markets and not others, how states distribute social goods (including money) thus driving folks to black markets, to what extent do states ignore money laundering of the drug trade (or even encourage it), and to what extent are states involved in the drug trade more directly (think of the drug running the CIA helped along, if it wasn't directly involved, in order to fund the Contras), etc....

How many of the TBTFB have been fined for facilitating drug laundering? (facilitate the black markets)

HSHB is a prime example, from Bloombergnews:

HSBC was accused of failing to monitor more than $670 billion in wire transfers and more than $9.4 billion in purchases of U.S. currency from HSBC Mexico, allowing for money laundering, prosecutors said. The bank also violated U.S. economic sanctions against Iran, Libya, Sudan, Burma and Cuba, according to a criminal information filed in the case.

This is just one of many more examples, I think Wacovia was busted for the same kind of thing. The kind of monies involved isn't chump change, so I think there's some validity for deeper analysis and discussion. (Apologies, don't mean to jack your discussion...)

Thanks Katie. The neoliberals have pointedly ignored and rejected ethical aspects of economics. They limit their assumptions and, therefore, their range of topics for discussion right at the beginning. Any attempt to discuss the harm done by their economic view is met with scoffing and claims of meritocracy versus freeloaders. Neoliberal economics is nothing but propaganda. I hope that Sandel's lectures get a very wide viewing audience.

Reaganomics has held the field far too long. With a little luck, Bernie's resurrection of the New Deal ethos will correct the corporate rapaciousness. If we don't soon begin to see the reality of corporate viciousness, greed, and outright stupidity in savaging our planet, we will all be doomed to a blighted future at best or extinction at worst. Along these lines, Ranting Rooster's example of black markets is apropos: no rules and no recourse. The worst of all possible worlds.