My Take on the Recurring Incredibly Annoying Argument That Absorbs About Half the Site's Energy Every Time It Comes Up and Makes Allies Treat Each Other Like Adversaries, Which I Really Wish Would Stop So We Could Get Back To Fighting the Oligarchy

My biases, stated up front:

  1. I want this site to survive
  2. I want this site to be a place to organize against the corruption that's killing us
  3. I want the people of this planet to rise against the corruption that's killing us before we die.

Now, my take on the issues of sexism, racism, homophobia and how it relates to people's freedom of speech on this site, with a side trek into how these issues are dividing up the infant Left:

First, as long as we're willing to buy into the opposition between economic injustice and other kinds of injustice--other kinds of injustice like

1) racial bigotry expressing itself some other way than poverty, labor discrimination, housing discrimination;
2) sexist bigotry expressing itself some other way than poverty, labor discrimination, etc--

As long as we accept the idea that those forms of injustice are somehow opposed to economic injustice, or not part of the same thing, we're going to have fights over which one trumps (heh) the others. We'll have a lot of people screaming at the economic activists that they're racist, and a lot of people screaming at the advocates against non-economic racism and sexism that they're contemptuous of working-class and poor white people.

In a similar way, as long as we're willing to buy into the opposition between the problem of political corruption and the problem of other kinds of injustice--sexism, racism, etc.--then we'll have fights over which one trumps the others.

And, no matter which side of this issue you are on--if our main fight is over what we say on this site, rather than fighting the people who are destroying our world, then we have a problem.

I realize you could say I'm buying into the opposition btw this fight over who can say what and the fight to stop the destruction of the world. But that's because the fight over what we can say here tends to consume the attention of the site and make people on here see each other as adversaries. And treat each other accordingly.

One of two things is going to happen: either one side is going to leave in irritation, or the two sides are going to choose to work together, at least on some things. Or, maybe, the whole site will go down in flames. I've seen similar things happen, both online and in Occupy.

My opinion is that, if I can stand with a bunch of "I love capitalism" Republican white guys in crew cuts against the NSA because I believe in the 4th amendment, I can stand with, say, a bunch of sexists if they want to join a fight for clean water against a gas company. That doesn't mean I endorse sexism. Sexism was the first form of oppression I ever encountered. If I don't talk about my abusive ex-stepfather on here, it's because I don't want to, not because I don't know what it's like to be a woman--in this case a girl child--oppressed by a man, and by the culture of male superiority which ensured that he got to hurt me for a long time.

I want us to survive. Both this site, and, more importantly, this planet. That's the bottom line for me.

I'll work with whoever I have to--as long as they are sincere about fighting the fight--so that we can survive.

That said, I think we could use a whole lot more kindness on this issue, and a lot more awareness of the fact that the people on this site are not our enemies.

In other words, if somebody is uncomfortable with something somebody else says, they should say "Hey, I'm uncomfortable with that." And if somebody said that to me, in most cases I'd say. "Oh. OK. I won't say that around you anymore." Now if somebody's "uncomfortable" because I say that I think 9-11 was an inside job, or that Hillary is taking blood money from Saudi Arabia, that's different. But if it's a simple word choice, I'd probably decide in favor of peace and quiet aboard this space station, to quote Jeffrey Sinclair. Like joe said in the first diary that started all this, how about avoiding certain words, not because you don't have the freedom to say them, but because you have the concern for the effect on the community if you do say them? How about avoiding certain words because they make your allies feel like they are scum on the bottom of your shoe?

http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Jeffrey_Sinclair

On the other side, if I were the one who was uncomfortable, I'd probably understand that I wasn't going to get everybody on the site who was using those words to do what I want. If it were only a few people who were unwilling to accomodate me, I'd probably just not go into those few people's diaries. If it's an endemic problem, then I'd have to decide whether it upset me enough to make me leave.

Bottom line: either one side will go off irritated, or both sides will decide to work together and make some accomodations. Or the whole site could crash and burn.

I know what I'd prefer.

UPDATE/EDIT:

This video pretty much expresses how I've felt in my quest, over the last fifteen years, to get America off of this horrible track we're on. I think it also expresses why I want this place to continue to exist.

The beginning of the video is *exactly* what it was like being an activist in DC. With the exception of one dear friend who worked on the Hill.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qVPNONdF58]

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How about we all grow up and stop flinging loaded words around for no redeeming value and crying over them when we run into them.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

lunachickie's picture

she IS a B Word. For starters.

How about we all grow up and just click out of a post that offends us, and then move on to another post?

We have that power already.

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which diairies to avoid and/or click out of because someone decided to arbitrarily drop a "bitch" into the comments for no reason? Another list? Please, go right ahead and defend to the bitter end the right of some to be casually and repetitively offensive to some for no other reason other than they feel like it and can.

With that, I'm going to take your advice and leave this 5th grade playground brawl.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Deja's picture

It would be stated in the essay by the author. And we adults will respect it, and of not, the hopefully admin/mods would act accordingly.

I threw the guy out of my apartment for dropping the N bomb, but had he not left when I ordered him to, I'd have had the cops do it.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Don't think I can bear going back to DKos to retrieve it, but the idea was that each author would establish some simple ground rules for their diary, in the diary.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lotlizard's picture

It might start with the N,B,C words, but some essayists might then be led to think they “own” the comment threads of their essay and try to extend the idea of house rules to control discussion in other ways.

“This is ‘my’ essay, so talking about [topic] in the comments is forbidden.”

Or: “This essay is a ‘safe space,’ so [set of the essayist’s arbitrary rules].”

Unless that’s clearly ruled out from the start, we could easily end up with essayists playing mini-Markos and managing each essay of theirs as their personal mini-TOP.

Open threads, in particular, should have consistent rules that remain the same for all open threads and don’t vary at the whim of the original poster.

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Maybe I have not been reading enough threads to note the existence of the war.

From this thread, the "war" here very much sounds like the dichotomy that the Hillary primary campaign and its supporters tried to set into motion before either Bernie or Hillary announced their respective runs.

Supposedly, Bernie was all about economic justice and, at the very best, indifferent to other kinds of injustice; and Hillary was all about rights of women and minorities; and this very quickly degenerated into Bernie's supporters being cast as racist and sexist and freeloaders, to which they reacted angrily. For their part, Bernie's supporters saw Hillary as pandering insincerely.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

The oligarchy has taken the fights against racism and sexism away from populists and the left (what there is of it) and have re-tailored it to their own purposes. That reshapes those fights even for people who are sincere and opposed to the oligarchy, unless great care is taken.

It's so damned hard to get those constructions out of your head altogether.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lunachickie's picture

this is only a "war" if we make it one.

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I meant only that I had not seen the thread or threads where the fighting allegedly occurred. I stated a mundane fact relating to my own experience; you stated a philosophical truth.

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Citizen Of Earth's picture

issue resolved. thank you.

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Donnie The #ShitHole Douchebag. Fake Friend to the Working Class. Real Asshole.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I've removed all names. Don't see the problem, but whatever it is, it's gone.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

incendiary policing action, but different strokes.

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There is no such thing as TMI. It can always be held in reserve for extortion.

Deja's picture

I'm getting annoyed with the hair-splitters, but the change is hilarious! I swear some people apparently just like to argue for argument sake. Like the whole 'white privilege' doesn't fit the definition of privilege so it should be called something else'. Ugh.

You have more patience than I do. Time for the local news, provided dumbass sports are not still going on.

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elenacarlena's picture

than this one.

If you can't say it all in the title, what are you doing here?

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Thank you, Elena, you made my day.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

Find a seat and chill out.

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

From here on out, I'll be so chill, you'll be able to use me to air condition a bedroom suite!

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Not Henry Kissinger's picture

yoda_weed_0.jpg

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The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?

I was one of the early "pissed off at Bernie because he threw it all away and didn't fight" peeps. Some of the more mentally unstable among us here attacked me personally, not my reasoning. That didn't help because I was also depressed and a previously full-throated Bernie advocate. That's the one type of commenter here I have zero respect for and who I believe is the most damaging to the health of this site - the one who can't acknowledge change, the truth, that differences in opinion have a right to coexist, and that you can disagree with others in a way that still respects their viewpoint. There's no room for mentally-unstable, perpetually-outraged individuals here. That's when administration needs to step in, pronto, and stop the damage before it spins into madness.

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Lady Libertine's picture

I missed it all, havent been around here much, nor much of anywhere not even Bernieland, for I guess a couple months now. Lots of reasons, nothing personal (re this blogspace).

Couple quick semi-random thoughts, from the Just Swooped In pov.

--- man, I saw some unbearably stupid stupid shit during and in the aftermath of Occupy. Some of it so bad, so ridiculous, I became 900% convinced that it was FBI (or whoever of the many agencies whose job it is is to divide, disrupt and kneecap any "opposition" from the unwashed masses) with some kind of cointelpro 5.0 scheme to infiltrate and destroy The Movement (any movement). Guess what? It worked.

"The Left" is so easily duped sometimes, and the idea that they use our strengths against us, came to mind quite often. Some of those strengths being that we are passionate, we are righteous, we demand not ask justice etc. So much so.... its not very hard for them to instigate, fan smoldering flames, and steer us to turn on each other. They love it when we do that.

So you just have to ask yourself sometimes, what is my line in the sand and if I enforce it - in meatspace, on a blog, wherever - what is the cost? And, is it worth it?

Define Winning.

2 - Basically in agreement with CTtS main point here in this essay.

I want us to survive. Both this site, and, more importantly, this planet. That's the bottom line for me.

I'll work with whoever I have to--as long as they are sincere about fighting the fight--so that we can survive.

That said, I think we could use a whole lot more kindness on this issue, and a lot more awareness of the fact that the people on this site are not our enemies.

3 - I trust joe shikspack and JtC with my very life! The rest of you jokers are suspect, ha ha just kidding. Glad Admins are working on it.

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lunachickie's picture

I missed it all

And--agreed with the main point, more or less. There were some weeds got into, but other than that?? Good to see you again Wink

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