Hillary, The B Word, The C word and Misogyny

Can we stop the misogynistic slurs regarding Hillary, please? My new video posted at Steven D Talks:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFEe15lK89o]

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

Here's why it's problematic:

Redskins image[1].png

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

When I was a kid, your word was thrown around a lot. PC came later. It hurt a lot of kids who had difficulties in school for a variety of reasons.

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tourniquet's picture

not at all. have a look at my comment history, i'm all "cunt this" and "nigger that" pretty much every post.

what kind of a pretzeled frame of a question is this, anyway? lol..

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

see my comment right below this one, you are pushing it.

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Don't blame me for responding to what you said, both n that post, but in other posts on this thread.

http://caucus99percent.com/comment/165846#comment-165846

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You're tap dancing on the outskirts of Asstown, knock it off.

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tourniquet's picture

not falling in line is my MO. if you'd like me to leave, i'll leave... but you'll find in my account description that i'm not into wet-noodle bullshit pseudo-politics. i think i've pretty carefully delineated my response to the trigger-warning safe space anti-discourse right here in this thread. if that type of thing is something you're looking to defend, as the owner of this site, just say the word and i'm out like trout.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

it's your decision, keep it up and it will be my decision.

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tourniquet's picture

this thread has a whole lot of different conversations going on, both relative to and not-so-much relative to the OP.

this is how a thread like this is always going to pan out.

i voiced my opinion about trigger warnings and safe spaces and was immediately met with accusations of supporting racism and misogyny. this is why i gladly skipped away from dailyHERP. i expect to be able to explain my position in lieu of such accusations, because i feel that such accusations are just as, if not far more inflammatory than my original comment.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

is DBAA, all I'm asking is that you stay within that guideline.

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tourniquet's picture

that you would hold that standard to someone who would post a comment like

so you can't comment without using offensive language? (DERP)

in a deliberate misinterpretation of my post. i didn't say anything about offensive language. my post was about safe spaces and trigger warnings which, JtC, are as much a danger to your own website as they are to any other.

i'm backing off now, it's clear i'm kicking a hornet's nest. but please consider the fact that these things are not good for discourse, online or in the real world. this place is not an echo chamber and i'd prefer it remain that way.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

considered. This issue is a tightrope for me, a judgement either way would surely be met as wrong by some. There is no win in this for me, so the best I can hope for is to keep the peace, which is what I'm trying to do.

Peace out...

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tourniquet's picture

your predicament, and it's unfortunate.

free speech is a tightrope that you need not consider, as owner of a site. it's good that you do.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

point of view.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

language is the subject of this thread and your comment, quoted below. was not limited to trigger warnings and safe spaces.

the idea of trigger warnings, safe spaces and other nauseatingly infantilizing identarian concepts are one of the reasons i was so turned off by dailyRichWhiteGuys. the point is not to "protect" anyone, the point is the protection of often-deeply-flawed ideologies from dissent by stifling discussion.

(Obviously, your claim that the true purpose of rules that are supposed to protect others is to stifle discussion is nothing but your interpretation.)

It's interesting that, according to you, other people on this thread confronted you about "supporting racism and misogyny" but you focused on a post consisting solely of "So, you can't comment without using offensive language?"

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R words, DERP - I have no clue what anyone is talking about and why everyone is so upset. All the laments about not being able to speak your mind at other blogs and now everyone is upset because they don't like someone else's words. JtC is right. WTF.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

tourniquet's picture

is how trigger warnings, safe spaces, and other such disingenuous rhetorical tactics are often used: to stifle dissent of an idea before it is voiced. "anyone who says X is wrong is a racist, and X is right!" is a disingenuous argument, even if "X is right!" is objectively true. that's what i'm talking about; dissenters are a priori derided as racists, the listener/reader's minds are preloaded to assume any dissent is racist without any critical thought.

it is a disingenuous and manipulative use of rhetoric.

also, i directly responded to the person that accused me of supporting racist language. you can check my prior comments for that info.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

you are getting close to DBAA-land...cut the crap.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

I assume stands for "don't be an ass," yes? If so, that's an unfortunate rule to try to enforce, because who decides who is an ass?

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board owner, the admins and/or the mods.

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really asking that question? You've been an ass around here quite a bit lately. I've been watching. Just a week or two ago I had several members contact me about some racist comments you were making, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now this.

Yes, my judgement is that you are being an ass. The question now is, will you stop.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Care to point that out? And care to point out exactly how I'm being an asshole here?

Hopefully me asking for clarification isn't able to be perceived as assholish in any way. I'm genuinely curious how anything I've said in the past month could possibly be racist or what here can be viewed as me being an asshole.

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Everyone and this blog exists at the pleasure of the owner. Do you own this place?

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I used the words "nigger" and "cunt." Was it triggering?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

every comment. But I'm not the only one reading either, although I may be the main one commenting.

Don't expect to enter politics without being asked to explain yourself, though. Rightly or wrongly, if you were famous, this would probably be an issue (see the Schlesinger video above).

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

I'd never expect not to be asked to explain myself.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

wants to post about this subject?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Kind of as a way of pointing out that context matters.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

riverlover's picture

I am female but with adult kids, one of each. Nigger was never in my vocabulary. Bitch still is, as a verb, not a descriptive noun. Others I ignore. I think my kids got less of that vocabulary and it will go out of style. A female breeding dog is still a bitch. Unfortunately, daddy dog is still a sire, meaning higher rank.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

TheOtherMaven's picture

Breeding males are "toms", breeding females are "queens". Smile

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

riverlover's picture

Once spayed they become kittehs again, but most retain queen attitude.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

All of the online communities I started watching after Bernie's campaign ended have veered straight back to straight up identity politics. Policing language is the most important thing ever, especially when it can be used as a cudgel.

In all honesty, my best guess at this point is that Bernie's movement is going to total up to a big fat zero. Most former supporters will either drift away or join the Cultural Revolution-types among the millennials. They'll say things like "men are rarely the victims of sexism," then fly into poutrage when they can't win electoral majorities.

I think the economic struggle is just too hard for people to engage with. PC is easier.

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riverlover's picture

But there is a very engaged pushback to us.

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elenacarlena's picture

This is hardly his "most important thing ever," but it's important enough to be discussed once in a while.

Encouraging people to think about how they express their objections to the candidate is hardly using language policing as a cudgel. This language is a cudgel. Then you object to people objecting to being beaten over the head by your language.

No one has ever explained to me why they are so quick to say the B word but so reluctant to say the N word.

And I don't see where any of this has to do with identity politics. It is relatively unusual for the left to use language that is derogatory against entire groups of people, so we object here. Of course such language shouldn't be used on the right either, but good luck with getting through to them.

We ask for more inclusive respectful language and you think somehow that's going to divide us and make the movement a zero. Completely ignoring all those people turned off by derogatory language. I don't see the logic.

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edg's picture

I haven't noticed an explosion in use of those words in the essays I read here. What am I missing out on?

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Only connect. - E.M. Forster

elenacarlena's picture

not here. When the site is moderated to encourage respect for each other, attacking the ideas not the commenters, that eliminates a good bit of name calling.

But I would say there's been more of it generally around the Internet ever since Hillary became a viable (sorta) candidate, since she has been called every name in the book, most of them earned. Then many women aligned with her, for better or worse, and were called names in turn.

A certain segment of Internet society seems to find it much easier to repeat "what a B" than to make substantive comments on the issues.

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"And I don't see where any of this has to do with identity politics."

See no evil (in your tribe), hear no evil (in your tribe), and virtue signal - the credo of hypocrites everywhere.

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elenacarlena's picture

attacking the commenter. Got it.

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riverlover's picture

but not disparaging to me. Please let it rain here!

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/2016/08/learning-from-failure-mod... (and the rest of his blog for that matter).

The "left" in the US seems to have a real problem with falling into the partisan trap, only to be neutered by the Democrats. Combine this with purity politics and the language police and nothing can ever get done because you can never even get started. The Democratic party really is where good ideas go to be euthanized.

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It's a motherlode of an essay. So much to mine. I loved this:

The creation of a movement that included Republican as well as Democratic gays, lesbians, and sympathetic straight people also violated another commandment of contemporary left-wing activism, which is that movements for social change must exclude everyone who fails any of a battery of tests of ideological purity. It’s been pointed out, and truly, that the Right looks for allies to attract while the Left looks for heretics to expel; this is one of the reasons that for the last forty years, the Right has been so much more successful than the Left.

To some extent, purity politics is simply the flipside of piggybacking. If your movement also has to support every other movement on the leftward end of things, the only people who will be attracted to your movement are those few who also agree with the agendas of every one of the other movements on the list.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

from my other comments, but I get automatically suspicious when people use the term "purity politics." That's the same talking point the Clintonistas have been using on us since the late 80s. It's a bad talking point, and implies that being dedicated to a certain since of principles is a stupid, childish, foolish thing that drives other people away.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

another very important divide—the divide between the people who earn salaries and have done very well for themselves, and the people who earn wages and have been driven into poverty and misery by easily identifiable policies supported across the board by the people who earn salaries—

How much is a wage and how much is a salary? This is expelling heretics instead of looking for allies. The left is a flop because it is full of #$%@&. Too few are willing to pay the price - not unions, Bernie, or the many other segments of our society that claim to be progressive. The righties, however, are willing to blow up the baby with the bathwater and everybody knows it.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

edg's picture

Synonyms for wages - salary, compensation, pay, earnings, income

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minimum hourly salary or a living salary, but to a minimum hourly wage and a living wage. The context also made the distinction clear.

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edg's picture

is usually between salaried and hourly workers. Federal and state labor laws generally apply to hourly workers but not salaried workers. So, no, the context did not make the distinction as clear as using the standard salaried and hourly terms would have.

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is his riff on blue collar (wage) v. white collar (salary). Mr. Greer in another essay drew this distinction to make a point similar to the one Thomas Frank made in "Listen Liberal."

My own experience as a legal aid attorney bears out Mr. Greer's complaints in a lot of ways. We have been very good at avoiding the partisan trap. In may ways, this is because we deal with politicians of all parties at arms length while allowing their constituent services people to refer clients. We are also good at avoiding piggybacking and purity, we focus on specific issues and cases and maintain the ability to ally with other groups on issues where we agree, even if we oppose each other on different issues. Looking at some of the other groups I've worked with, the ones with a more rightward political philosophy have tended to be more adaptive and pragmatic about who they work with on an issue. But that's my own experience.

Like you, I think we on the left could use a little more willingness to "blow up the baby with the bathwater" (excellent phrase BTW). We (the left) need to be more willing to stand the fuck up and fight even if it means we lose this round. The tea party has been very effective in moving the Republicans even more to the left by hanging moderates like Mike Castle, or even conservatives like Eric Cantor out to dry. The tea party did not allow itself to capitulate to the "go moderate or lose" FUD that works so well against rank and file democrats. Daily Kos is exhibit A of how this FUD is lapped up by the rank and file Democrats. Hell, Democrats can't even eliminate Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the patron saint of payday lenders and rigger of elections, in a primary.

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lotlizard's picture

Salaried workers were exempt from being paid overtime.

That was the “classical” definition — you ran two different jobs on the corporate mainframe computer, one for “exempt payroll” and a different one for “non-exempt payroll.”

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There's a critical difference between climate change activism and gay marriage which is not addressed or even touched on here: that opposing climate change hurts the 1%'s interests, and supporting gay marriage costs them nothing. That being the case, it's difficult to take the author's analysis seriously - but, in fact, he raises some excellent points regardless. The problems he mentions really are problems.

Someone way down in the comments notes this as well; I have yet to find a response, though it may be in there somewhere.

edit: I found it, but it was a non-response. Disappointing.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

IMO, he kind of screwed the pooch when it came to transitioning from a campaign to a movement.

There's a lot of psychological reset buttons being set right now; a reliance on identity politics is one of them, as you point out, though I don't entirely agree with you about identity politics. It's pretty obvious to me racism and sexism and homophobia are actually a thing, since, after all, people have been and continue to be killed and raped because of those hatreds. But while I'm not willing to blow any of that off, it's also true that the versions of the anti-racism and anti-sexism fights we're being served up are pathetic shadows of their former selves, focused less on people being beaten, raped, killed, imprisoned than on things like what some famous person said to some other famous person, or what mean thing one person in a group said to another; at worst, this kind of politics expresses itself in the idea that Darth Vader's black mask means Star Wars is racist; at best, it expresses itself in removing the Confederate Flag (which was justified, but a really odd response to the firebombing of a church that resulted in multiple deaths).

But lots of psychological reset buttons are being pushed right now. People are even back to saying how dumb and bad the majority of Americans are for voting against their own interests--when it's bloody obvious that very large numbers of people wanted to vote for their own interests, and tried to, but were effectively prevented from doing so.

Our assumptions and entrenched frames may yet be the death of us. Or maybe not.

The fundamental problem with Bernie's movement is that as far as I can see, I'm in the exact same position as an activist now as I was before he rallied scores of millions behind his message: trying to create something out of nothing, or next to nothing, when I am neither rich nor famous. The tools Bernie's given me to help in that work are less helpful than those Dean gave me in 2004.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

There was a study done that showed that group leaders who value dominance will sabotage the group in order to stay in power when they feel challenged, even if that makes them worse off in the end because the whole group is dragged down.

I think it may be the same with a lot of leftist groups, particularly those who never cared much about class to begin with and therefore have nothing to discuss or work on but identity politics; the people who are doing most of the accusing and policing would rather be rulers or peers in a giant toxic shitstorm than subordinate their need for control/attention/drama.

Maybe what we need is to redefine the terms and go back to saying that left = class; civil rights and social equality are worthy causes, but if you're not in the class fight, if you're not in favor of socialism or communism or wealth equality or something generally of that sort, you're not really left.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

actually experienced this, or, well, something like it.

It's almost impossible to even talk about this stuff honestly.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lotlizard's picture

The only thing consistent about the morality of [progressives] is that all their values are subordinate to the feelings of [minorities, women, etc.].

Folding on the “value” or principle of free speech as an absolute — making it relative, subordinating it to policing language for possible offense to certain categories of persons — to what extent does that validate this criticism?

On the other hand, this is indeed the age of organized use of language aimed at evoking and manipulating feelings rather than conveying information — part of the standard arsenal of advertising, political propaganda, and psychological warfare. Couldn’t there be sufficiently solid ground for treating certain kinds of language as assault?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

And I wish to God that right-wing site was wrong, but they aren't, not altogether.
Look at what happened on Daily Kos when Black people (some of whom, I guess, may have been OMS identities/sockpuppets, but I'm sure some people, like Denise Oliver Velez, were real) decided to go after white progressives.

It worked real well, didn't it?

I tried to lift a paragraph from this article, which is really important, but the damned site won't let me. Here's the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/27/congressional-black-caucus-wall...

Basically, Wall St knows--and almost certainly the Chamber of Commerce knows too--that white liberals and progressives can't gainsay Black people or, to a lesser extent, Latino people, for fear of being labelled racist. The ability of Black and Latino people to call white people on the left racist, and have that be automatically true just because they said so, thus becomes a valuable commodity to rich white people who want to crush the left. So Wall St and the Chamber line up to purchase the speech of prominent, visible Black leaders and Latino leaders, and turn those leaders, essentially, into one big collective talking point. Even white "allies" of these Black and Latino people seem able to ride their moral capital coattails, as when a diary was published at DKos explaining how disliking the NSA was "white privilege." Or, more recently, as Hillary Clinton appears able to do, somehow being the exemplar of anti-racism no matter what she does.

It just depends on who buys Black leadership's speech. Progressives are unlikely to be able to outbid the bankers and big businessmen.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

tourniquet's picture

john lewis walking hand-in-hand with DWS for the "bridge" photo-op after her "LUNCH GALA!" and you'll see an extremely prominent, powerful poc supporting a candidate with ??? record on social issues and ??? record on civil rights and a well-known record of corruption.

if the guy's not selling his legacy, he's certainly making odd decisions.

and somebody somewhere would love to "how DARE you!" me for this observation.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twIaIXwQGr0]

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

mimi's picture

of free speech oppression. Poor me./s

Steven, I commend you for trying to bring up this issue. All I know is that the usage of "cheap and foul and discriminatory" language has gone up in the last 12 years or so.

I remember times when using the word "fuck" in public or meetings was considered a sign of weakness and lowliness of the person who used it. Meanwhile, in the spirit of defending your rights to free speech, an increase of vulgar speech through the lack of repercussions and public shame, when such speech was used on the online conversational platform, enabled an increase in hate, racism, sexism and all sorts of discrimination.

Therefore you cold observe an increased push back against such discriminatory speech. Which ironically and unfortunately too, didn't help, but again increased, unfortunately, the very issues they are fighting against. If you don't use the 'bad" words, there are even more sophisticated tricks to say as mean and derogatory language that sounds "less bad" but is more "powerful" in hurting and harming specific group of people.

There is a verbal competition among the people, who are targetted with such vulgar, dispicable speech, about who has the right to push back against those, who use it, the most. Who is the biggest victim of such hate speech? That again is taken by those. who are pushed back against, as another round of push backs. And so the the people spin around those vulgarities and expressed hateful emotions, easily out of control, and in the end enhance and increase the whole thing to a problem.

You can't influence the people from using foul language for their emotions and hate feelings. All you can do is to appeal to their conscience and hope they recognize that being a decent human being and voice your opinions accordingly would be the best way to not increase hate speech. And you did a fine job at that with your video. I am against sexism and racism, in all the directions. It's not a one gender problem or issue and not a one race problem, imo.

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I appreciate the thoughtful aspects, where they exist, of policing monitoring speech. I agree that it puts up artificial barriers and ways the conversation away from what is ultimately the most important - quality of life issues that include health care, housing, a living wage, a job, food, peace, and someplace to grow old gracefully and die.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

speech creates different barriers. Which is worse?

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Is it worse for someone else to cage you, or for you to create a cage around yourself? To me, that is the difference between "monitored speech," and "free speech."

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

alienates those around you. In a way, that's a self created cage, as one becomes isolated. The difference is that one can let oneself out of that kind of cage. You can't escape a cage someone else puts you in.

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tourniquet's picture

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

The internet is a place where accountable speech is nonexistant. Everyone wears a mask, and can't be identified, this allowing the ability to say anything and everything. And that bleeds into the real world to an extent.

Frankly, i'm fine with people saying whatever they want to say. It's their choice, after all. And it's other people's choices whether it not that person is worth listening to.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

in an Occupy GA.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

lotlizard's picture

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

whom with various forms of prejudice and bigotry could swallow a 4-6 hour meeting, during which time nothing got done that could make Wall St even slightly uncomfortable. Also, nothing got done that could make global corporate capitalism even the slightest bit uncomfortable.

Here's my two ideas, both of which are often unpopular: if you're in a movement, your movement should decide what its work is, and focus on that. The choice to expand your work in one direction or another, adding issues, though tempting, is an extremely serious choice, and should rarely be made. Here's my reasoning (which I said every time Occupy wanted to add another issue to the mix): who is going to work on this? We can say that we approve or disapprove of something, but if you say that the movement is going to work on an issue, that means labor hours, which means energy, time, and morale, which are in limited supply; and when you have a hard time getting people to take responsibility for a monthly covered-dish supper, you get less than sanguine about adding a whole laundry list of issues to the mix. Because every time I see an issue, I see work. When it comes to racism, sexism, etc., it's difficult, because saying you don't want to work on that is like saying you believe the POC or white women (or whoever else) in your movement are Non-People. That's intolerable. But it's equally intolerable to sit through multiple multi-hour meetings dominated primarily by people arguing with each other over whether something somebody said to somebody else at the encampment is racist/sexist/homophobic, while the world burns. It's a great way to make a lot of people leave your meetings and not come back, because they discern (rightly) that no action is going to be taken beyond--maybe--the action of somebody in the movement apologizing to somebody else and not saying those words again.

My second point, also generally unpopular, is that if you *do* want to work on the issues of racism and sexism, it's pretty weird to focus on what somebody in movement said to somebody else in movement, given the world we're living in. This is particularly true with racism. FFS, we've had a church firebombing. We've had state-sanctioned, state-performed murders on nearly a daily basis. And we're worried about the word choices of liberals and progressives? This focus on fixing white liberals' minds and speech, when the body count out there is fucking unbelievable, stuns me. It's like they're being massacred and their response is to...try and save my soul? HUH? ???

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

detroitmechworks's picture

At the same time, I think it's interesting that we've been having this same discussion about words and the use of words for almost 50 years now.

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ]

My opinion? I don't call Hillary cheap and obvious names because it's easy. On the other hand, Her Royal Worshipfullness, Baron of Wall Street, Duke of New York, Queen of America, is a bit more creative and fun.

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I do not pretend I know what I do not know.

Meteor Man's picture

Ok, fine. But George Carlin and Lenny Bruce used profanity to make a point about society, hypocrisy and power.

The use of tedious, repetitive profanity was not their goal.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

I only refer to her as $hillary, anymore. An apt name, I think.

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Anja Geitz's picture

In my neighborhood to phonebank, canvass, and protest the TPP, but they were all misogynists, I'd swallow the injustice of that to fight the injustice of the TPP.

If you look throughout history, you'll see the same kind of lines being drawn. Take the women's sufferage movement. Many educated women were using race as an argument saying that uneducated black men could vote but they could not. This splintered the group among those who had come from the communist groups whose focus was on economic equality but not on women's rights.

Perhaps the term "politics makes for strange bedfellows" should really read "Successful politics makes for strange bedfellows"

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Damnit Janet's picture

nothing worse than that name. Male or Female.

But in my home and under my breath, I have the right to call her exactly what she deserves to be called. Smile

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"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison

mimi's picture

then it's the right thing to do to call that person like that. Especially if the person you call a war criminal lies the heck out of the mouth to be a peace loving person etc. etc. That is even not an issue. At least not in this essay/video. Of course you can say that.

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shaharazade's picture

PC language policing. I swear like crazy and although I don't use the word cunt I do use bitch, fucker, asshole, prick dick and any other descriptive naughty Anglo Saxon word that fits. I try not to use them online as it allows the thought word police to call foul as you've broken their sick rules. One of the reasons I'm here is that I abhor fake PC that tells you that your language is the problem and that your sexist/racist if you use certain words.

I don't hate the Mad Bomber but she's is an evil bitch and a bad ass. My other problem with this essay is that I see no point in tempering my language or writing with the intent of being credible to the RW's be they Democratic or Republican. The self righteous sisters at dkos and elsewhere who think that equality for women is breaking corporate glass ceilings and being as bad ass as men CEO's or bombing villages of women, men and children is progress if women are doing it is so hypocritical it makes my head spin.

The Clinton's whole agenda and world view is among other things is racist and sexist but the policies they advocates and implement are crimes against all of humanity. So pardon me if I don't get all tweaked out about using politically correct language to denigrate these psycho's with power, male and female, black or white, who mean all humans harm. When a woman with power says 'it's worth it' to shoot black people in the streets, kill, bomb, torture, impoverish, demolish their lands and take away their universal human and civil rights excuse me if I use language that is not PC.

Now The Hairball uses hateful sexist, racist language with the intent of fanning the flames of hate, bigotry and fear. Context and intent count. Sorry to foam at the mouth here but after having to listen to PC language policing that supposedly denigrates all women I just don't buy it. Margret Thacher was a woman and I certainly feel okay calling her any name in the book. I'm not sexist I'm a humanist and Hillary denigrates all women as well as all humans.

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mimi's picture

politically incorrect "bad" words, one can always see that you are not a hater and that you have all the valid reasons in the world to be pissed and rant along. Anyone can see that you are neither sexist, nor racist and have a lot of humanity in you.

So, who and what language is it then people get "hot" about? I have often to google the "bad" slang words which are arousing furor, because I don't know them as ESL and a rather socially isolated person.

I think if you can feel the hate towards a person, if that hate seems unrelated to political issues, then it's getting a bit more difficult. I also think many different persons, dependent on their own life experiences, are sensitive to different kind of "hating". I know I am sensitive to other stuff than some feminist bloggers. The more factual discrimination there is towards a group of people, the harder it is to separate from unjustified over the top hateful speech and justified ranting on the basis of facts.

Some people can't stand more sophisticated expressed sarcasm. I can. Some people can't stand those writers who see in any subject the tribalism, sexism first before even considering the actual issue a writer tried to express. It's basically their reason d'etre to write just about those ethnic, gender issues. On the other hand, when it is really needed to point out crimes against humanity based on sexist or racist facts, those are not always the first to point them out factually. Robyn here is a rare example who consistantly writes about gender related factual crimes against humanity and can do so without hyperbolic language. Others foam quick and easily about minor sexist or racist "misdemeanors". May be I haven't suffered as much as many under such attacks and therefore am not that easily sensitized.

I think the more personal and private related the issues are some ranting writer is foanimg about, the worse.

Hecate has a very creative way to call out things without using the officially categorized "bad" words. And I think those expressions are very effective and fun.

And you know, online people are already so "conditioned" to take any language with an attitude of "oh, no, not that again" and just move on and ignore it than in real space. Being called bitch and getting the middle finger from a person in real space is a bit different as the same online.

So, now, don't bitch about what I said, cause I like you the way you are and express yourself. Smile

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

You're a better gal than I, Gunga Din.

And yes, that's a satirical reference to Kipling (can't really make any other kind).

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

shaharazade's picture

But I feel loving or hating pols is pointless as she or Bill are interchangeable with a lot of pols male and female. Because she is a nasty piece of work and a woman who plays the victim she does make me mad. I really don't like identity politics or PC rules of language or stance due to spending 10 long years on dkos. She is evil incarnate and I don't mind calling her or her female counterparts with power like Condi, Albright, Difi by any 'bad' name. I like to swear always have. I'm saying that calling female or male pols names is fair game and always has been. It's a democratic tradition.

I'm also pretty rebellious and for some reason thought that if we were civil to each other there were no PC rules about political speech or no need to self censor. 10 years of meme's, talking points and approved PC have made me leery of political speech being used to manipulate (double speak) or guilt trip people in the cooked up culture wars that are used to distract and divide and conquer. If I use sexist 'bad' words to denigrate The Mad Bomber that does not mean I am denigrating women or myself. I hate what she represents and the fact that she has power and is not held accountable. As she is a women I am even more personally outraged.

One of the things I really do hate about PC language is that it puts words or style above all our fundamental human rights. You can't get more racist or sexist then the policies that the Democratic pols implement. The Dems. even the so called progressives are complicit with the Republicans and use all our human and civil rights as bartering chips in their kabuki show. 'Victories for compromise' wherein all of us are denigrated by their anti-democratic, unjust legislation and policies.

'Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to and to give an appearance of solidarity to pure wind.' George Orwell from Why I Write

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elenacarlena's picture

with these heartless political creatures. But I think throwing bad words at them muddies the message.

How many times have you written that Obama is the N word? If never, why is it different to call Clinton the B word?

Sure, call the nominees effing Aholes that will start some S-word in the Middle East. But to use gendered words is to imply that there is something about their gender contributing to their Aholishness. If that is not your intent, then why use these words?

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

The political and historical context of a white person calling a black person "nigger" is morally apocalyptic.
The political and historical context of a man calling a woman bitch is personal tyranny and cruelty.
These two things are different. Neither is particularly good. But making them into one Big Bad Thing is not gonna be helpful.

That said, I don't call Obama nigger, and I don't call Hillary a bitch, even though she is a cruel, vicious, heartless, ruthless, predatory woman, which pretty much agrees with the definition of "bitch." But I don't call her one, because there's more to words than dictionary definitions--there is historical context.

*That* said, none of this is a moral absolute for me. I choose as I go.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

Apocalypse versus personal tyranny and cruelty. As you say, neither is particularly good.

So they're not one big bad thing. That doesn't change the fact that words reflective of either are bad things.

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shaharazade's picture

messaging, memes or talking points for who and to what purpose? I muddy no waters with insults that cut though the bs that says we must respect a psycho killer's race or gender. Who am I sending a messages to? Do I need to toe the line of hypocritical PC language when insulting and cursing these assholes regardless of their gender, race, religion or political alignment?

As for the N word for Obama or the C word for The Mad Bomber these are not words I would ever use for any human, no matter how racist and sexist and inhumane they themselves are. Even though I think both of these pols are 'rat bastards' those words do cross the line. They insult all the real victims of our sexist racist culture in our racist sexist culture .Both these words have so much historical baggage and are nothing but hate based on race and gender.

Does Killary not use the fact that she is a woman to twist and manipulate all those who see her racist, sexist agenda for what it is? She makes herself the victim rather then the perpetrator. Of course she as a woman has had misogynistic hatred aimed at her. Of course Obama as a black man is the target of the racism in this is sick culture. They are not prototypes of their gender or race. They are not just starting some shit in the ME they are monstrous psycho's who use their gender, race or religion to deflect us all from seeing what they are.

So excuse me if I use language you do not like or approve of. Gender or race has nothing to do with what they are. I somehow cannot fathom how you can brush off what both Hillary and Obama, a woman and a black man are doing to people of color or women globally as 'starting some shit in the ME. My god they are psycho killers who politically hide behind their gender and race in order to reek havoc and death on women people of color and insist that we cannot insult them because they are victims? Gimme a break racism and sexism are what both of these pols are about.

Forget about it. The Mad Bomber is an insult to females globally and Obomber is an insult to people of color and human rights globally, And yet you tell me my intent is bad because I use words you think are offensive. all I can say is you have this whole PC insanity ass backward. As I said I just don't give a rat ass about language that you find offensive.

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elenacarlena's picture

like either the D or R nominees for President, think either presidency will be disastrous, and agree that Obomber has been engaging in unethical actions in the ME to appease and enrich the American MIC and I want to end those actions.

And yes, Hillary and her minions have been particularly offensive in their attempt to call any criticism of her policies sexism.

But that doesn't make the B and C words not sexist when they're directed at her. They are still sexist.

You seem to be saying that you reserve the right to use any words you like, while at the same time saying you would never use these words that we object to.

This is exactly the point I, and I think Steven, are making:

As for the N word for Obama or the C word for The Mad Bomber these are not words I would ever use for any human, no matter how racist and sexist and inhumane they themselves are. Even though I think both of these pols are 'rat bastards' those words do cross the line. They insult all the real victims of our sexist racist culture in our racist sexist culture .Both these words have so much historical baggage and are nothing but hate based on race and gender.

Yet you end with, "I just don't give a rat ass about language that you find offensive."

Well, you don't have to care what I think. But how can you say the words cross the line and then defend everyone's right to use them?

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balance. I agree with Elena: Some people think they should be able to use any epithet contemptuous of women and their private parts at will, but would never use the n word. That word used to be acceptable at one time, too, but we made some progress there because it was demeaning to black people. Some words are hurtful to some groups. That is a fact. Using some self discipline to avoid hurting people gratuitously should not be that big a deal, especially for "bleeding heart liberals."

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

what Hillary Clinton is. When I compare her to a remora eel, I feel like I'm slandering the eel.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Shahryar's picture

I take it as "excessively cruel", the female equivalent to "bastard". When it's used to describe a specific woman, like Thatcher or Hillary, how is that bad?

Are we seriously saying the people who populate dKos are going to be critical of us for using the word? Like they're not critical now? Like we're going to worry about the way the 1% and their enablers use it to slow us down? When, by censoring ourselves, we do the work for them?

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"Bastard" means a child of either sex that some woman bore out out of wedlock. At the time the word was coined, bearing a child out of wedlock was considered a heinous thing for a woman to do. So, it's an epithet describing both the person to whom it is addressed and the mother of that person--a very early example of slut shaming. "Son of a bitch" also insults the mom.

On a different point, I could not possibly care less what Kos thnks of what I post. However, I don't understand why we think dropping words that hurt certain groups, be they the n word, redskin, chink, towel head or the words cited at the beginning of this thread is too much to ask of us in 2016. I don't use "prick" or "dick," either. "Sauce for the goose" and all that. However, they are not equivalent. The most offensive words are those that stereotype groups that were made second class citizens in this country by design and, in many instances, by law.

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