Hillary, The B Word, The C word and Misogyny

Can we stop the misogynistic slurs regarding Hillary, please? My new video posted at Steven D Talks:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFEe15lK89o]

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Steven D's picture

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

unnecessary.

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martianexpatriate's picture

The way that I look at it, is that when someone does something terribly wrong, you should always fault them specifically for that. When you stoop to using this sort of language rather then faulting them for what they've done, you weaken your own position.

You make yourself look small, and you make her look better.

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go. (For the record, I don't use words that insult all males, either, even though it's not equivalent.)

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elenacarlena's picture

I ask people not to use those words whenever I see them and get a ton of pushback for it. It's sure nice to have allies! Thanks for speaking up.

Remember folks, you never know who might wander by and read your words out of context. If it's a right winger, they're going to think, "Aha! See! Liberals don't like (uppity, outspoken, whatever) women either! It really IS annoying!" Don't enable them. And don't let them lose your message (i.e., Hillary would continue unethical wars overseas) in the midst of their celebration of "liberal" misogyny.

And if you still object, ask yourself, "If the N word isn't okay no matter how bad the behavior of a black person, why is a derogatory term for women okay?"

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Steven D's picture

I should have spoken about this earlier.

We have enough reason to criticize Hillary for the terrible things she has done.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

masoginy is over rated. You feeling a need to protect women is masoginist. You ok with prick, dick, wanker? How about if you put white before them? The real issue is name calling regardless of gender or word used. It demeans the user more than the recipient. It isn't a replacement for skillful parlance, and it makes the user sound ignorant. Having said that, it is also shorthand and some well considered and acknowledged slurs convey a 1,000 words. I think the context and the intent also need to be considered.

Very thoughtful post Steven.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Steven D's picture

One more reason to not use such language: I think it harms legitimate criticism of Clinton because it makes it too easy for her followers to keep branding Sanders and Stein supporters as sexist Bernie Bros rather than address the real issues with her candidacy.

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"You can't just leave those who created the problem in charge of the solution."---Tyree Scott

It also makes Stein (the real left) supporters sound ignorant.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Like Steven D said, I do respect your opinion, but I vehemently disagree.

There is so much misogyny present in the world today, thanks to a whole host of things including Donald Trump, rape culture, society's focus on women's looks, lack of access for a woman to even have fucking autonomy over her own body, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Men are not normally the subject of sexism, so I'm not worried about throwing around the words "dick" or "douchebag" occasionally. I think that's a false equivalence thing right there -- white men are not an oppressed segment of society, and that's why those terms don't bother me.

It really isn't the same when someone calls Hillary Clinton or Ann Coulter a "c*nt". That's a very specific term meant to deeply degrade a woman.

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I miss Colorado.

When used, it speaks of deep anger and helplessness - unless, of course, the user is plain and totally uncouth.

Being a female has always worked for me, so I cannot personally relate to when it doesn't. And the once or twice being a female got in my way, I was able to step over it. I am so anti-authority and disdainful of commandments rules that I even hate them when they work for me. Rules need to provide options and choices for people who don't like them. If it doesn't win/win, there will be war.

Men are not generally targets of sexism - so what? Isn't that what we want? I have three grandsons, and I can give you a list of things that are biased against them. One day, I'll even do a post on what they are. I did mention one of them in comments at dkos, and holy moly, how the women objected. They wanted rights men don't have, each and all justified by whose body it was, regardless of whether or not it was ultimately relevant.

There is a line, shiz, and it is the line that concerns me - not who it is crossed by or against. I think segmenting that line weakens us as a tribe and fractures our assault against the self-appointed masters of the universe.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

dick is, by a long shot, because--hey! we have a sexist society. Therefore "dick" can mean nothing more than "an unpleasant person, unpleasant to be around," while "cunt," as you accurately put it, is meant to create a mortal social wound. (In English, anyway. As I recall from my childhood, it's not quite the same in Spanish.)

The question of name-calling and word-calling is a somewhat vexed one for me, but am willing to come down on the side of not doing it, because that's the easiest and simplest way to create a social good. I think.

This whole discussion started decades ago with the term "nigger," and now the same critique has been applied everywhere without much analysis of the historical context. I had somebody tell me once that I was oppressing the Romany because I said somebody gypped somebody else out of something. The historical context of a white person in America calling a black person a nigger is catastrophic, morally apocalyptic. A white person in America saying somebody gypped somebody probably doesn't even know that saying ever had a history specific to any group.

Without any historical analysis or context, all you're left with is that if one person says that a word or name is an evil epithet, intended to hurt, then everybody is supposed to nod and say "OK, none of us will ever say that word ever again." Like I said, I'm willing to go along with that as long as it seems to be the simplest road to creating a social good, whether it's the good of people being able to exist in community together, or the good of taking a stand against racism, but in a world where people say the color of Darth Vader's mask shows that Star Wars is racist, I can't guarantee that I'll always be on the same side of this issue.

BTW, Star Wars is racist (and I say this as a Star Wars fan), but if one spends one's time talking about the color of Darth Vader's mask, one will probably miss the actual racism that needs to be taken to task. Just sayin'.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

tourniquet's picture

whooole lot on where you're coming from, context-wise. when i was working in kitchens, the word "cunt" was bandied about nearly as often as the word "fuck", and it was used in the british sense... ie. not as a gendered insult. like the word "dick". what you didn't want to call people in a kitchen was "bitch", because that meant you were incapable of doing or unwilling to do your job. again, this wasn't gendered.

when i went back to school i had to start policing my language hard, not because i was calling people cunts but because i was an intimidating guy who swore a whole lot, and not many of my just-out-of-high-school classmates could differentiate between my normalcy, mind-at-ease use of the word "fuck" and someone who was very angry all the time.

i don't use the word "cunt" in anger. i've only really used it directly AT someone once, in a bar, when a drunk hit on a friend of mine and, after he rebuffed her, went on to talk shit about both of us being "faggots" for the next three hours, right behind us. she got both barrels, and i've got zero remorse. if it had been a male talking all that shit there would have been a fistfight inside ten minutes.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and the Brits do use it entirely differently than we do. They even use it about guys.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

zett's picture

was in a British context. So for me, cunt is not all that awful even though I'm American.

I will refrain from it on here, but in real life, I will call Hillary Rotten Clinton and her worthless husband and her lying daughter all the most awful epithets I can think of and am willing to learn more because I despise and detest them so utterly and I can't keep the rage inside all the time.

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tourniquet's picture

the etymology of "cunt" is shakespearean, so it's extremely british. i know a few kiwis and aussies that use the word prolifically as well, one of them called his own mother a cunt during a chat online. i don't know how it wound up being the paragon of gendered insults in the US, when "dick" is just about as mild an insult as you can come up with. i'm not sure i can think of an instance with friends where someone wasn't called a dick at some point.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

hellinahandcart's picture

So is Dickhead and Prick. And Bastard is completely useless. Dicks and Pricks and Bastards are great things in our society.
If you wanna piss a guy off, call him a "dickhole." Something about the "hole" is demeaning. (Doesn't work w/ the ass_hole-- that doesn't bother anyone)
So, I really think it's about the reaction, the response that name-callers are looking for. If you give a word a lot of power, you can be sure that the name-callers are going to use it even more.
When Ann Coulter first hit 'the scene' years ago, I heard a lot of B and C words. She said, gleefully, Yea, you're right, so F off. Not that I care much for Ann Coulter, to put it mildly, but I don't hear a lot of that sort of language slung at her anymore. She not only made it clear that she didn't care what you called her, but that she was going to wear it as a badge of honor. And so it has all but died out.
I appreciate what you're trying to do here, Steven D, but I think trying to put a veil of 'no-no' around certain words, particularly where women are concerned, covertly props up the idea of women needing protection (from men) in our society, in our patriarchal society.
I might add: Name Callers seem to understand that many women are vulnerable to words that relate to their bodies, since they're raised to think that their bodies are the most important thing about them. Inversely, a clever Name Caller- like Donald Trump- will name-call the thing that society most expects from men: Success.
"LOSERS!" "Low Energy!" "Pathetic!"
We have two completely different realms of modes of attack, depending on the gender, and, I'm sorry, but I think that shrinking from a word and/or phrases used in these attacks on both genders, we need to automatically eschew the base(less) attack and continue with intelligence and compassion.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

with the rise of the culture of meanness in our society, I think.

"Piece of shit" works fairly well. But it's hard to come up with a set of words bad enough for the Clintons. And focusing on Hillary's body is really beside the point. Her body is probably the least offensive thing about her.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

without insulting his mother. Dick, asshole, jerk, piece of shit are basically what you're left with.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

use the words in the first post on this thread. I know it's not equivalent in terms of power, history, etc., but I strive to be even handed about it anyway. The other words you mentioned can be used to insult men and women. Their usage is generally based on the behavior of one person, rather than some gender stereotype. I think that's fine. However, there are many more insults than those, including everyone's favorite four-letter cuss word. IMO, the best insults are not the crassest, anyway.

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These are fun.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wikipedia+shakespeare&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#...

From Pangloss

Malt worm!

Crusty botch of nature!

Your virginity breeds mites, much like a cheese.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Calling somebody a dick still had some power, because of the implied brainlessness. I also think that it doesn't work in print like it does face-to-face, where it becomes more clear that one is calling someone a mindless hunk of flesh driven by base desires. I think the culture of meanness has been supplemented by the culture of embracing stupidity, to (ironically) castrate that insult. However, the one that was really bad back then was calling a guy a dildo. Not just a dick, but a completely fake one. It also has the advantage of sounding very insulting, and kind of funny, when spoken out loud.

I have been mildly amused over the years, that in every election cycle, we get at least one politician that goes by "Dick". We had one here several years ago named Dick Posthumous, which sounded to me like a very serious social disease.

-And just because I haven't used it in decades, may I take this opportunity to say: I think Trump is a dildo. A big orange one, with life-like hair.

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"Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all."
- John Maynard Keynes

lotlizard's picture

they try to wound each other verbally by insulting each other’s deity.

Davidge: You know something, Jerry? Your great Shizumaat ain't shit!

Jeriba: [angry] Earthman, your Mickey Mouse is one big stupid dope!

[Davidge tries not to laugh]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Heartwarming/EnemyMine

Ignoring that Jerry never found out who Mickey Mouse really was, it's still heartwarming when Davidge calls him(?) out on an argument they had earlier:
Davidge: Oh, Shizumaat is too good for us humans, is that it!?
Jeriba: Not too good for humans, but too good for you!
Davidge: Oh, you're a judge of character.
Jeriba: Do you not remember what you said about Shizumaat?
Davidge: Yeah, well maybe you forgot what you said about Mickey Mouse!
Jeriba: [shamed] ...That was wrong. I... did not mean it.

That is about as UN-racist as it gets in science fiction.

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Being a female has always worked for me, so I cannot personally relate to when it doesn't.

Are you saying that you have never been discriminated against because you are a woman? If so, then I find this very hard to believe. Every woman I know has been discriminated against at some point or another, no matter how subtle or blatant.

I'm a fairly assertive woman, so I really have no problems speaking my mind, and I know that you don't either. It's not women like us that I'm talking about, and not every woman has the option to speak her mind if she so chooses. Misogyny still exists, and it's still everywhere, and it's still fucking ugly. I hate that my 16-year-old daughter is growing up in a society where it's still OK to hate on women the way that we do.

Rules need to provide options and choices for people who don't like them.

No, that is not always the case, nor should it be. i don't want some rapist asshole out on the street because some lenient judge wanted to provide an "option" for him to finish college. Fuck that.

Men are not generally targets of sexism - so what? Isn't that what we want? I have three grandsons, and I can give you a list of things that are biased against them.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm not going to get into Oppression Olympics with you, but you do sound like a white person bitching about how tough they have it to a black person.

There is a line, shiz, and it is the line that concerns me - not who it is crossed by or against. I think segmenting that line weakens us as a tribe and fractures our assault against the self-appointed masters of the universe.

What line are you talking about? Do you think this somehow regulates your speech? There is a whole host of names I refuse to call people, not because it's politically correct, but because I'd like to think I'm a decent human being.

So, I don't know, have your free speech then. If y'all want to, call Hillary Clinton a cunt, go for it. But know that I will judge the ever loving shit out of you if and when you do. Actions have unintended consequences.

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I miss Colorado.

mimi's picture

but you do sound like a white person bitching about how tough they have it to a black person.

What is bitching for the goose is bitching for the gander ... I guess.

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Words only wound or hurt people if you .... let them.

Cunt is just a word, sometimes used to vent anger and to insult.....but it usually backfires, and reflects badly on the person using it. It displays a certain weakness and ineptness...."that's the best response you could come up with"??

So nobody should be worried about Cunt. I say the more cunts the better...

In fact, the more that the word is used, and the more that it is used in positive ways or in common language -- the less power the word then has as some kind of "terrible insult".

It's sort of like saying the word Fuck all the time, .... after awhile it completely loses its shock value.

----
So do not ever fear ... mere words. Fear actions!!

FEAR HILLARY CLINTON!!!!!

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a saying we had as kids, Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.

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I thought that was a pretty stupid saying. People can be grievously injured by words in ways that aren't visible or bleed. We all know that. Don't let what people say hurt you is pretty weak tea.

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elenacarlena's picture

Funny how racism is not okay but sexism is.

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"Men are not normally the subject of sexism"

Men are quite often the subject of sexism - but because sexism against men hasn't been continuously pointed out by aggrieved harridans for decades, most people don't recognize it when it's right in their faces.

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just that it's less pervasive in our culture than misogyny.

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I miss Colorado.

Quite pervasive. Less recognized.

Shit, it's got you saying that gendered slurs are basically okay as long as they target men.

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See, now you make me miss Dkos. How sad.

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I miss Colorado.

I warned you a couple of months ago about pushing the MRA agenda on this site, actually I warned you not to do it again and here we are. You must have been drooling when you saw the opportunity to throw it out here again in this essay.

I feel I can't give you another warning about this as it's obvious you wont comply. You leave me with no alternative.

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elenacarlena's picture

I'm pretty sure most people will recognize that when it's right in their faces.

And what do you call black people who object to the N word?

BTW, I am one of those who responds positively when men ask me not to use certain words. Goose, gander, yes.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

some of those aggrieved harridans. Just sayin'.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

elenacarlena's picture

That's why the rule here is DBAA.

Misogynist words do not convey what you think they do. For Hillary, I like Mad Bomber best. But the B and C words and their ilk carry a subtext that the entire female half of the species is subhuman. If you won't use the N word, why are you comfortable with the B word? That in itself is sexist, IMO - our feelings are dismissed as not as important as the feelings of minority groups.

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Name calling is feeble - except for the mad bomber, of course.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

in a derogatory manner to entire groups of people. Don't blame me for Hillary, she does not represent any group to which I belong, I did/do everything in my power to stop her. Of course, my power is very limited next to that of a Clinton.

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heard many females take the word as their own, much like some black people use the "n" word in conversation with each other. I am not nearly offended with being called a bitch, as I am the "c" word. To some extent bitch con notates that a female is a formidable being.

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O.k. When is the next meeting for the revolution?
-FuturePassed on Sunday, November 25, 2018 10:22 p.m.

lotlizard's picture

There is, for example, B—— magazine out of Portland.
https://bitchmedia.org/

Someone there wrote suggested the B word could be taken as an acronym for “Being In Total Control, Honey.”

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elenacarlena's picture

But for one thing, they still don't want whites using the word. So the parallel would be for men not to use the B word.

And for another, some disagree with the attempt. Oprah, for example. She said that she does not tolerate anyone, black or white, using the word because there is no way to take the harm out of it: "I always think of the millions of people who heard that as their last word as they were hanging from a tree." http://www.tmz.com/2013/07/31/oprah-winfrey-n-word-race-rae-dawn-chong/

In parallel, I think of the millions of women who heard the B or C word as their last word before their significant other beat them to death or shot them. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/09/men-killing-women-domesti_n_592... Given the level of violence against women and disrespect for women (why are male judges and legislators allowed to determine whether or not I can have a medical procedure?), there is likewise no way to take the harm out of the words.

I get it, try to pretend it's not harmful or try to change its context. But it's still sexist and potentially harmful. That people see that the N word is racist without seeing that the B word is sexist is in itself evidence of lingering sexism - our opinions have no validity, we are just being overly emotional.

Are words as important as deeds? Of course not. But words reflect thoughts that in other contexts propel deeds.

And every time someone uses the B word to attack Hillary, it makes the attack a little less credible in the eyes of someone who does not know the attacker well, because now the suspicion will arise that the attacker only attacks because Hill is a woman.

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Corrupt, crooked, conniving, craptastic, con artist, and of course ... Clinton. (Bah dum dum).

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Thanks for the diary and video. I have been formulating several diaries in my head about sexism and I think it may be time to write them.

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I miss Colorado.

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Why can't we just say the damn words, instead of saying "the C/B/N word?" It's not like saying the words cunt, bitch, or nigger is the same as actually calling someone them. It's an informative setting, not an insulting setting. If someone is offended by having someone even mention the word, that's that person's problem. Censorship shouldn't exist in an informative setting.

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I agree that ultimately it is silly. I could argue though that some think not using it ever helps to remind people that it isn't a nice thing to say.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

elenacarlena's picture

words they otherwise feel constrained about saying, like bratty children thinking they can get away with something.

Case in point:

[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7oARlduy_o width:500]

For some people the words are triggering. If someone beat the crap out of you and broke your bones while yelling, "Thaumlord!" then you might very well change your name rather than hear that word, now triggering, ever again. Unfortunately, domestic violence victims can't stop the dehumanizing words. All we can do is all be aware that it's an issue and decide not to say them, to make things a little better rather than a little worse.

At any rate, we're not trying to censor. We're suggesting that people may want to make a different choice, because of the reasons we're discussing here.

If you choose to call an entire group of people derogatory names based on the behavior of particular individuals within that group, then expect pushback and objections. You have the freedom to say what you want, and we have the freedom to call you an a$$hole. It's still not censorship.

To respond with, "If you don't like it, that's your problem" is an attempt to say whatever you want without pushback. It doesn't work that way. I could say the same back at you.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

All that bull does is keep a person trapped in a past event while censoring the society around them. Society shouldn't be punished because some individuals would rather hide from their past instead of facing it and accepting that it happened. Yeah, it can ve hard. That's life.

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elenacarlena's picture

Asking you not to use derogatory terms is punishing you? All righty then.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Don't do that.

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elenacarlena's picture

Seriously, I read (paraphrasing), "Society should not be punished because women don't want to face and deal with having been beaten". We were discussing whether or not to use derogatory terms that refer to all women to insult Hillary.

So I interpret that as the "punishment" would be you feeling that you have to agree to our request, which is not to use the B and C words. Is that not what you meant?

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Yeah, it can be hard. That's life.

Thanks, Eric Trump. Glad you're here.

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I miss Colorado.

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

That's what GOS is to an extreme. Look at how "triggered" they get every time something unflattering is mentioned about Hillary there.

And isn't it ironic for you to purposely try to make an insensitive comment when calling my comment insensitive? And what for? So you can dismiss what was said, rather than taking it into consideration and trying to understand the viewpoints of another?

Look, I understand the people hiding behind the "triggered" bullshit. Life would be so much easier if we didn't hurt or offend one another. If we were perfect hive mind clones, everything would be so great, right? But that's not human. Being human, being alive, is a culmination of experiences, both good and bad. Yeah, bad experiences suck. They can suck in ways most people can't even imagine or comprehend. But no matter how bad an experience can get, people have to learn how to deal with it. The "triggered" bullshit is just an excuse to not deal with a personal problem, leaving it to fester and corrupt other aspects of a person's life.

How bad does the "triggered" bullshit have to be before you personally could acknowledge that it is a bigger problem than an individual person's experience? Does history need to be censored and whitewashed for fear of "triggering" someone with knowledge of the nazi's or the enslavement of african tribes?

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elenacarlena's picture

Of course most actions are part of a continuum.

Do you like Obama? I'm guessing not. Do you call him the N word no matter how much else you criticize him? I'm guessing not. Why not? Because it's racist.

So why isn't the parallel with Hillary the same? If you call her the B or C words, it's sexist in the same way that calling him the N word is racist.

I get that you feel we can't be overly sensitive to people's needs for safe space. But that doesn't make triggering bullshit. If you can't imagine things paired together with extreme violence causing a bad reaction to that paired thing later, then you haven't studied psychology and have difficulty with empathy. Are veterans that have trouble with fireworks on the 4th also big babies who need to get over their bullshit? It's just noise, after all.

Or do you think that being beaten, knifed, bones broken, and shot by your "loved one" is no big deal? All those other things, war, hanging, yeah, they're bad. But what women go through, meh.

Obviously, taking sensitivity to the point that we're whitewashing history would be going too far. Giving women the same respect you give minorities, not going too far.

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

You need to take a breath and calm down, then read what I'm actually saying. I'm not going to have a conversation with you if you're so worked up that you have to invent things that I didn't say to respond to.

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elenacarlena's picture

I set up no straw man. I suspect you are attacking because you have no defense.

What's next, telling me I'm hysterical?

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Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

Or do you think that being beaten, knifed, bones broken, and shot by your "loved one" is no big deal? All those other things, war, hanging, yeah, they're bad. But what women go through, meh.

There's one.

Asking you not to use derogatory terms is punishing you? All righty then.

There's another.

"Society should not be punished because women don't want to face and deal with having been beaten".

And another. Oh, sorry, that's just "paraphrasing." But still, it's not something I said, it's something you created to be offended at and attack.

So, are you going to just keep on calling me a sexist through blatant insinuation and attacking straw men? I assume that's why you're asking if I'm going to call you hysterical, right? Because you're assuming that I'm a misogynistic sexist because I reject the idea of censorship, or because I recognize the real and vast different contexts in which obscenities have been used?

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Meteor Man's picture

Does history need to be censored and whitewashed for fear of "triggering" someone with knowledge of the nazi's or the enslavement of african tribes?

But ""knowledge" of Nazi genocide or "knowledge" of the historical enslavement of African tribes is not the problem. Your misuse of the concept of "trigger" warnings is the problem.

Censorship of criticism of Hillary at DK or DU has nothing to do with "triggers" or the use of infantile profanity.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

tourniquet's picture

the idea of trigger warnings, safe spaces and other nauseatingly infantilizing identarian concepts are one of the reasons i was so turned off by dailyRichWhiteGuys. the point is not to "protect" anyone, the point is the protection of often-deeply-flawed ideologies from dissent by stifling discussion. big plus? anyone who disagrees with the ideology is at best "insensitive" (quelle horreur!) and at worst a racimisogynist(R).

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

So now I'm going to leave this website.

It's been real.

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I miss Colorado.

tourniquet's picture

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

Because of what two users said?

We've talked in real time. Do you think I'd support a website that harbored things like what happened to triv33?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

I have a really hard time reconciling this in my mind. c99p is not good with anything considered "identity politics", and that pisses me off more than I have ever let on.

I'm gonna take some time and think it over. I just don't know yet. I am still enraged about this entire thread and it has me rethinking my participation here, legit.

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I miss Colorado.

hecate's picture

with white identity politics, the original and still most pervasive and powerful form of identity politics, so pervasive and powerful that many people here either do not or will not recognize it even exists, much less acknowledge its uber alles dominance. Same ol' same ol'. As is found on most any political website. Drowning in white people.

There is additionally the Reality that some members of this site are out-MRAoids.

As women are granted even more rights and power in society, the MRA movement is growing in both size and sheer screeching decibels, as men who simply will not tolerate being held down by the harsh, unyielding demands of the feminist movement let their voices be heard. To such advocates, the future is a bleak dystopia where men are kept in pens and robotically milked for sperm, while women rule the world with a manicured, moisturized iron fist . . . .

[Y]ou've seen quite a bit, and yet even you cannot fully comprehend the depths of pathos and self-loathing it would require to advocate the rights of people who have dominated everything since every time, ever. The only thing more pathetic than a man crying out for his rights as a man—as a direct result of women demanding their own—is a white guy bitching about being called a "cracker" . . . .

What we're talking about here is Internet Men's Activism, where the second someone makes a comment about women's rights, comment sections and inboxes instantly fill up with the cries of the poor downtrodden middle-class white male, mostly in the form of misspelled rants about c*nts and n-words, or off-topic bitching that misses the point so badly that we think they accidentally replied to the wrong article . . . .

Not long after this topic page was created, the comment section exploded with self-righteous man-children explaining why all the above is wrong and men are the most downtrodden of all people.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

That's a nasty movement, if it's the one I'm thinking of. I certainly don't support it, nor do I think the majority of people here support it.

As far as "drowning in white people" goes, I'm going to organize wherever I am with whoever I am with, to oppose the shit that's happening to my world. I live in a segregated society, so of course I know more white people, and, like everyone, I organize most with people I know. However, the election fraud in FL (2000/2004) put me, for many years, into majority-black movements, mainly because not very many white people were willing to face what had happened honestly. So for a while, I wasn't so much "drowning in white people" as "drowning in Black people," if you want to put it that way.

A re-alignment has happened recently in which the majority of Black leadership have made a deal with the powers represented by Hillary Clinton, and the majority of Black people over 45 have followed that leadership into that deal. I don't like Hillary Clinton, I don't like the powers represented by her, and I don't like or trust the deal that was made, to the extent that I can see its parameters. I don't think that deal is going to end up doing right even by the Black people who entered into it.

So, since I've set myself in opposition to Clinton, her machine, and her deal, that means that there's a lot of Black people who just plain won't work with me to begin with. As far as other Black people, well, I tend to go to where they're working rather than demand that they come and provide my favorite website with diversity. I'd like it if someday, assuming that I work honestly and sensibly and conduct myself decently on their websites and shows (like the Benjamin Dixon show) maybe they might visit here, or even stick around.

It seems like I'm being asked to choose between that possibility and keeping some people who hold views I don't entirely share around. In other words, I'm asking to choose which caucusers (present or future) I want to keep around. What if I want to keep all of you around?

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

CS in AZ's picture

now, because JtC bounced him. He was intentionally obnoxious. He'd been warned before. Got a second chance, but didn't take the warning seriously I guess. JtC has made it clear, MRA stuff is over the line here and not allowed.

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Shahryar's picture

it's like "white power". Yes, that's how stupid it is.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

and generalizing it to the site. Obviously, there's an equal or greater number of people here who feel the exact opposite.

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

You're tougher than that. I haven't read this thread, and I don't plan to. I really don't give a damn what some people on the internet said. At least here, you get to speak your mind. Why would you resent allowing others to do the same even if you totally disagree. Click out, make an argument, bottom line - how important are people on the internet?

People make this big pitch about free speech and then threaten to take their ball and bat and go home when they run into it - yes, even pro Trump for whatever convoluted or otherwise reasons they might have. .

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Meteor Man's picture

Annoyingx irritating and offensive language and attitudes have always been part of human nature. You can't combat offensive rhetoric with surrender. The only useful approach is rising above the fray with mature corrections or skipping the post and only participating in substantive discussions.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

CS in AZ's picture

First of all, you just started Good News Tues, which was so much fun, between that and hecate's Tuesday Open Tummler, I'm thinking I need to start taking Tuesdays off from work just to hang out here.

Second, I love your posts, even when I think you're off base. You just have a way of making me smile. I need that! You are a person who speaks your mind, lets it flow, I like that!

Think about this - you use the words fuck and fucking in your posts all the time. What if someone said "I don't think people should say fuck or fucking. It upsets me. My father used to call me 'fucking brat' when he beat me as a child, so that word is triggering to me. I would like you to censor yourself to protect my feelings." -- would you do it?? Would you agree with that reasoning? Somehow I can't see that happening. I imagine Shiz more likely saying you know what, fuck that fucking shit!

I agree with dkmich, getting into an emotional twist because of what some people say on the Internet is not worth it. Being free to speak your own mind is fucking fantastic - right. But it means you gotta let others do the same. You don't have to read them.

Please stick around.

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I would hate to see Shiz leave. It would make me sad.

I am getting tired of the threats from people to take their bat and ball and go home. Nobody can make anybody stay. There are no GBCWs. This place is about free speech, and after dailykos, we wouldn't have it any other way.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Just last week I was advocating what you said to another person and telling them c99p doesn't have an ideological bent and not to get all upset over what some asshole said in a comment thread. Oh, the irony!

Total 180 because I ran into that "no ideological bent" part and, I admit it, sometimes that is fucking hard for me. Most of the time, I can detach from an issue and not make it personal, but this one is a toughy. I wrote a lot about sexism on TOP and, everytime I did, I got major flack for it. Major. I think I immediately go into attack mode when this subject comes up, but I also don't know how to stay away from it. it's a catch 22.

So I think I'll stick around if everyone will stop yelling at me now. Smile lol.

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I miss Colorado.

PriceRip's picture

          I have to practice "taking a walk in the woods" before I respond, and I suspect that will of necessity become my modus operandi. It's not c99% in particular, it's that the matrix is becoming less friendly at a rather accelerated rate and I do not see an end in sight. This place has some writers that make me think (even some with whom I don't agree), so I tend to "check in" here daily.

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Cant Stop the Macedonian Signal's picture

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"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha

"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver

Please?

(flings self at shiz's ankles and holds on)

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elenacarlena's picture

And when Oprah objects to it, she's infantilizing an entire race?

How about the R word? You okay with referring to a history in which American Indians were literally flayed for the money given out for their skins? Should we just get over that too?

No one here's trying to stifle dissent against Clinton. AFAIK, none of us like her. Did you watch Steven's video? He suggests criminal, liar, warmonger, etc. as alternatives. Criticize what she actually does, rather than derogating all women, and we can have a productive discussion.

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tourniquet's picture

regarding trigger warnings and the safe-space mentality, and how trigger warning and safe space mentality is used to stifle conversation and shut down dissent by painting the dissenter as a racist, misogynist, etc.

the comment had nothing to do with specific racist language.

but since you are interested, yes, i grew up in north carolina, and i am quite sensitive to the word nigger, and i let my friends who use the word know it in one way or another. by "R-word" i'm assuming you mean redskin.. i've hung out with a lot of native people (who, by the way, usually have referred to themselves by their tribe affiliation and NEVER say "native american", at least in my experience. more likely it's "indian" as a general term) and not one of them has had discernibly red skin, so i think it's a pretty stupid term. I, personally, do not use that term, but if you want to sound like a moron i'm not going to jump in and stop you. the derogatory terms i've heard for indigenous people usually include the word "nigger" and some sort of geographical component, "timber nigger" etc. i don't use those terms either, because i'm not a loud n proud racist pos.

honestly though, i've never once heard the word "redskin" used in a derogatory way, or really in any way directly referencing natives, and i've lived in the upper midwest for going on 15 years. i guess ymmv.

i agree with the principles of steven's video. you don't see me running around calling clinton a bitch. that would be stupid, because i don't know her personally.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

elenacarlena's picture

or everyone is ignoring is, there is no difference between a derogatory term based on race and one based on gender, except when women complain they get called further names and accused of acting like infants, whereas when minorities complain their complaints are respected.

And I did say American Indian, not native American. I first wrote Indian then thought that might be confusing, considering I did not want to specify the R word (but yes, you got it), so differentiated from Asian Indians.

So if you say the N word you are a racist POS, but if you say the B word that is just freedom of speech. Why doesn't the B word make you a sexist POS? You don't see the double standard?

If deciding that we don't want to use terms that are derogatory to a group makes this a space where one cannot express dissent, then that will be a problem. But I think you're anticipating a problem that does not exist here.

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riverlover's picture

to make disdaining terms at ones own microgroup. Less of that here, we all try for the most part to use defined words when typing here.

I could be disparaging of other post-menopausal women, but OMG, only do that to women higher in the class ($$$$) rank. I am shocked and appalled. At me.

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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.

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tourniquet's picture

there is a difference between a derogatory term based on race and one based on gender, because gendered insults transcend race fundamentally. that's a semantic discussion though. i think you're misinterpreting my "infantilizing" comment, if that's what you're referring to. the idea that adults need things like intellectual safe spaces (READ: ARTIFICIAL, DELIBERATELY CONSTRUCTED ECHO CHAMBERS) is absolutely infantilizing. if these people have such a hard time dealing with dissent, well, as the french say, "welcome to the internet".

the best example of the kindergarten safety-safe space is right on dailyDERP, where we'd have a clinton safe space where all the clinton shills could get together and trash sanders supporters. try to push back and risk a ban. childish, catty bullshit from a bunch of identarian shills. it's echoes of "white is right" from the mid 20th century.

i take complaints on face value. if it's obvious someone is being unjustly persecuted, i'm there with furious anger. if someone's complaining about something because they have incredibly thin skin, i'll sit back and watch the train wreck. it's a case-by-case basis, and should be... especially online, where you say you're a black woman and you're really a 30 year old male looking to up your SJW street cred, even if only in your own mind.

my comments on the term "native american" were not directed at you, just a swipe at the pc culture in general. i worked in a factory in south dakota for a while that employed a bunch of mexicans, and the management insisted on calling them "south americans" in some weird attempt at PC lingo. the mexicans, in response, started calling themselves "mexicano", because mexico is not in south america. they had a point, because the people that were employing them saw their national identity as somehow insulting, and there really wasn't much the employees could do about it, because many, if not most of them were illegal. (heh)

again, i don't use the word "bitch" as a gendered insult. this is more context. if i'm going to call someone a bitch it's going to be in the prison sense, someone that can't carry their weight, someone that is easily dominated. i don't tend to call women bitches unless they fit this criteria, but i will admit that "bitch" as a gendered term is on par with "dick" as a gendered term, should you choose to see them through a gendered lens: both are pretty ubiquitous, both are pretty mild, and both are pretty interchangeable gender-wise.

i'm not suggesting that the problem exists here, in fact that's part of the reason i like this site. but the problem very, very clearly exists, it's at the core of the clinton campaign. when clinton supporters talk about all dissenters being sexist, there you go. it's ironic that they've gone with the "OMG SHE'S CRAY CRAY" trope vs. jill stein, something that i would argue is one fuck of a lot more sexist than any sort of mainstream dissent of clinton has ever been.

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GIANT ALL-CAPS SIG

Meteor Man's picture

"Safe spaces" have nothing to do with the use of infantile derrogatory profanity. When you visit someone's home or go to a public venue there are simple standards of decency and common courtesy that are expected because it improves the ambience for everyone.

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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn

tourniquet's picture

it depends a lot on the context of the profanity. in long-term stressful situations, people tend to start to swear a lot, and i don't think it's infantile or derogatory, it's just a response to the situation. clearly there are social standards, but they go both ways. i'm not sure how i would read someone with culinary experience who was offended at the liberal use of profanity. i think you'd find the same in the armed forces, or any job with relentless stress.

but, such profanity isn't directed at anyone. abusive profanity is an entirely different beast.

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Alphalop's picture

i'm not sure how i would read someone with culinary experience who was offended at the liberal use of profanity. i think you'd find the same in the armed forces, or any job with relentless stress.

I think people that work in those environments don't view profanity the same way as "The Normals" do.

Here is a little personal anecdote about profanity and me.

I grew up in New Jersey (where we are not known for our lack of profanity, I think the middle finger is the NJ state bird.) and growing up borderline upper lower class/lower middle class at best, profanity was just a common form of speech and HOW it was said was more important than WHAT was said. For example, "Fuck You!" could be uttered as either an "Oh you got me you jerk" sort of way with no malicious intent or with venom that would lead to a fight.

Context is everything.

So fast forward a few years and on a whim just a few weeks after my 19th birthday I jumped in my car and moved 3000 miles away to Lake Tahoe on 3 days notice with a few friends taking only what I could pack into a Ford Escort.

So I started running in different circles, had friends from a lot of walks of life because we all had our love of skiing (or in a couple cases Dungeons and Dragons) in common. (Yeah, so what, I am a D&D geek, so is my Doctor. Blum 3 )

So with that came modifying my language because many of them had young children, and it wasn't that they gave me shit for using language like that in front of them, it just wasn't comfortable for me because it didn't fit both the environment and the context.

So, fast forward a few more years, I hadn't been back to Jersey in a while and when I had it was only for a brief week or so, and the use of such language gradually faded from my vernacular.

Then I started working for the prison system, where people basically ignore you if there isn't some profanity involved.

For example, "Get on the ground immediately!" never garners quite as rapid of a response as, "Everyone get the FUCK DOWN NOW!". (This isn't theoretical, I had ample opportunity to experiment with this because of the nature of the unit to which I was assigned.)

But before I go off on a tangent, back to my point.

A couple years into my stint with the department I was having dinner with a good friend of mine and his girlfriend that he met online from Detroit that moved out to Tahoe to be with him and his mother. (this was back in the days when hooking up with someone that you met online in IRC was considered pretty odd.)

Both he and I loved to cook, so we made this really elaborate meal for the ladies, and everything was going perfect.

Right up until I looked up and said to his mother, "Can you pass me the fucking salt please?".

Their was no malice or anything in the context that I used it, it was just the vernacular that I was used to using based on the environment that I was in.

Everything worked out ok, his soon to be girlfriend (and later wife) just about shot half a glass of wine out her nose trying to not laugh (Probably because Detroit, lol!) and his mother didn't even acknowledge it other than to pass me the salt. Smile

So I guess the moral of this long, meandering tale is that words have power, but only that which we are willing to impart to them.

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

Thaumlord-Exelbirth's picture

there is no difference between a derogatory term based on race and one based on gender,

There is one fairly significant difference. Racial terms like "nigger" or "redskin" have connections to race based murders. I'm fairly certain that female based derogatory terms don't have even remotely the same type of association. I mean, "bitch" has a slew of meanings, none of which pertain to the hunting down and murdering of women, and definitely not the word "cunt." Yeah, I grant that they're said during rapes and assaults, but so are racial slurs.

Interestingly, I'd say that "cunt" is actually the least misogynistic, as it is a word that references to the entirety of a woman's genitalia, including the pleasure causing parts, as opposed to "vagina," which reduces a woman's genitalia to just the birthing canal. Kinda seems like the "proper, polite" term implies that women are just baby growing incubators, and the "naughty, taboo" word acknowledges that women can enjoy sex.

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