WTF is going on with U.S.-Turkey relations?
Submitted by gjohnsit on Wed, 08/10/2016 - 1:54pm
I'm no fan of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, but at the same time I also recognize the strategic position Turkey occupies in the world. Erdogan is a dictator, but at the same time you don't destroy relations with a NATO ally for vague and mysterious reasons.
Yet, that appears to be exactly where things are heading.
(AP) — Turkey’s justice minister said Tuesday the United States would be sacrificing its alliance with Turkey to “a terrorist” if it were to refuse to extradite a U.S.-based Muslim cleric who the government says is behind the July 15 failed coup.
Bekir Bozdag also told the state-run Anadolu Agency that anti-American sentiment in Turkey is reaching “its peak” over the issue of cleric Fethullah Gulen’s return, and risks turning into hatred.
Turkey has branded Gulen’s movement a terror organization and wants him returned to Turkey to face trial. Washington has said it would need evidence of the cleric’s involvement, and says the regular extradition process must be allowed to take its course.
That sound reasonable, until you factor in how we kidnap and assassinate people around the world every day. Now we suddenly care about rule of law?
Gulen, who lives in self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania, has denied involvement in the violent coup attempt that left more than 270 people dead.
“If (the United States) does not return him, it will have sacrificed Turkey to a terrorist,” Bozdag said. “The United States is a great state and I believe will do what is expected from a great state.”
And it doesn't stop there.
The Woodrow Wilson Center, one of Washington’s best-known think tanks, is defending itself against charges that it played a role in the failed military coup against the government of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan last month.
The charges, played up prominently on Turkish newspapers in recent days, are a sign of a sharp deterioration in U.S.-Turkish relations in the wake of the coup....
Front-page accounts in pro-Erdogan newspapers over the weekend, complete with photos of Mr. Barkey and other conference attendees, suggested they were CIA agents who helped instigate the coup.
The CIA behind a coup?!? Pashaw! Who could believe something like that?
The response form the Obama Administration appears to be: "Be respectful of our coup attempt"
The Obama administration has a message for Turkey: Tone it down.
A day after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan expressed frustration that Secretary of State John Kerry had yet to visit his country in the wake of a failed coup attempt, a State Department official said the U.S. is increasingly concerned about the language emanating from its longtime NATO ally...
"This sort of conspiracy theory, inflammatory rhetoric ... is absolutely not helpful," State spokeswoman Elizabeth Trudeau said during Tuesday's daily briefing...
In his talk with Le Monde, Erdogan alluded to reports — which the State Department will not confirm — that Kerry will visit Turkey later this month. "It is late, too late," he said. "This makes us sad. What more do Americans need? Their strategic ally is facing a coup and it takes them 45 days before sending anyone over? This is shocking."
Perhaps the Turkish president's biggest poke in the U.S.'s eye, however, was his visit Tuesday to Russia, where he met with President Vladimir Putin.
Comments
Yes, the US actions are (apparently)
hypocritical, but why blame them for _finally_ doing the right thing (i.e., not returning Gulen to face a show trial and certain execution).
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
Hard to know who to believe these days.
We have been well known for our dirty tricks, I'm having difficulty working out what our advantage would be with this one, then again lately, the advantage scenario has not really been in evidence.
IMHO
Obama's essentially phoning it in at this point, excepting TPP passage (Because that gets him a venture capitalist job). He doesn't really give a shit about all the messes he's created the last four years.
NATO was supposedly formed to keep Europe free
from dictators. Turkey should be expelled.
I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.
The sooner the better.
native
It's a pretext.
Turkey doesn't really expect the US to turn over Gulen, but the rejection of the demand gives Erdogan a good excuse for developing closer ties with Putin and also helps solidify his support domestically.
Meanwhile, the US couldn't look more guilty if it tried.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
The putsch was incompetently done
by all accounts.
If the CIA wished to overthrow Erdogan it would have succeeded.
There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.
The CIA has F'd up more than one coup
I wouldn't put it past them Fing up this one.
They did wish to.
And it failed.
Though not so much out of lack of execution as just plain bad timing.
The neocons were forced into pulling the operational trigger by Kerry and Lavrov's deal on joint ISIS strikes, which also meant cutting off support for Agency backed resistance groups in Syria. The Turkish officers running those supplies would be out of jobs and the whole Syrian civil war would take a serious turn in favor of Assad. So it was in their mutual best interests to try to stop the process ASAP before it got too far advanced.
It was a desperate move though, at the wrong time, without popular or international support.
The neocons see their grand sand castle in the middle east disintegrating before their bloody eyes...
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
That's possible, but I've seen no proof
so far, none whatsoever, that the US was involved in the coup attempt. And I'm certainly not inclined to take Erdogan's word for it. Nor about much else, for that matter.
native
I don't see signs of US involvement in the coup.
But here's the thing.
I wanted to compare the Turkey coup to other coups that the US was not involved in, for pattern confirmation. But it's a rare coup or overthrow, in today's world, that is not engineered by the US.
All the regional coups in recent years are CIA-NGO Specials, complete with the hired rebels, State Department gun running, pleas for humanitarian interventions, and replacement regime/puppets standing by.
Still, I agree. The attempted coup in Turkey could have been an inside job this time. Although in terms of cui bono, the US would have come out the big winner.
I can think of quite a few reasons Turkey might align with Russia rather than the US, one being that they got a taste of the real NATO when they were forced to give up their major Caspian pipeline project with Russia in 2014, and were then treated like hired hands by the US. All they ever got to do, really, was lob a couple of small sarin gas bombs into some Syrian neighborhood, to frame Assad.
And then there was the issue of Erdogan's son, who had been running an oil smuggling business — transporting stolen ISIS oil across Turkey to sell to Israel. It was a well known "secret" in geopolitical circles. But, a month before Russia deployed to defend Syria, Putin attended his last G-8 meeting and showed fellow members satellite photos of Erdogan Junior's very visible oil smuggling operation, which funded ISIS.
A month or so later, Russian forces arrived in Syria and forced the US to destroy Junior's entire tanker fleet, over 1,500 strong. Although the US claimed they had spent billions deploying daily airstrikes for the previous 18 months, they somehow never noticed the continuous six-mile long oil tanker caravan. Apparently the US airstrikes, which cost American workers millions of dollars each day, didn't hit any meaningful targets, because ISIS expanded dramatically during that 18 month period.
Turkey became confused after all that, about which alliances were really in their best interest. Looks like they figured it out. The Russia-Turkey oil and gas pipeline supplying Europe from a new Greece super hub, will make them a lot richer than a lousy NATO parking lot for murder-weapons, which Turkey has to pay for. Besides, Russia has a more effective air force, with more advanced avionics, as they just proved in Syria. Why buy protection from NATO when you can get it free from Russia?
Thanks for pointing out the 6 miles long convoys of oil
going into Turkey, Pluto. I've commented about that before that Obama nor any of our allies touched those convoys. Nor the ones bringing supplies out to resupply isil.
IIRC correctly, Obama said that he didn't bomb them because he was concerned about collateral damage. Right.
Did you have a chance to read the article I put in my reply to you yesterday?
It shows all the different countries funding the different terrorists groups.
I have no idea how they can keep the groups apart, but this is one reason that Hillary wants a no fly zone over Syria. Obama is pissed that Putin is bombing our terrorists that he is funding to help overthrow Assad.
Most Americans never bother to ask what gives the US the right to overthrow any country's government.
Funny thing is that people believe the propaganda that the US is spreading freedom and democracy, but it takes out democratically elected governments and installs brutal dictators and as long as they do their job, they can commit heinous human rights violations and the US doesn't say anything about it.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
I did read the article, snoopydawg.
It gives an excellent play-by-play of the geopolitical thinking of the Parties involved in trying to overthrow the Syrian government.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article45257.htm
The goals of the US bombing run on Libya, as stated, are foolish and not credible. Air strikes cannot bring support to one of the many factions fighting for government control of Libya, because none of them have a ground game large enough to subdue the other four.
As that author implies, the Libya show-attack was a US temper tantrum over their continuing failure in the Middle East. The US has been jumping from land-mine to land-mine since the day they launched their first pointless attack on the people of Afghanistan.
I did laugh at the random inclusion of one of the Neocon Harpies™, Samantha Power. While they do loudly cheer for every US bloodbath, proxy war, and violent coup, I assume the author added her nonsense comment as a tongue-in-cheek hat-tip.
Do you really think there are still Americans who believe that the US is spreading freedom and democracy? I've heard a lot of silent Americans, lately, and even the radio hate jockeys don't seem to put a positive spin on US attacks on foreign nations, these days. On the other hand, if you ask someone on the street, "Who was behind the attack on the World Trade Center?" they'll tell you, "Saddam Hussein."
Do I believe that there are Americans who believe that we are
spreading freedom and democracy? Unfortunately the answer is yes. Plus they think that the troops are defending this country and our freedoms.
I live in Utah by Hill Air Force base and many of the people I used to work with had family in the military and my local news website if full of comments I wrote above. I don't think that they even bother to ask how the terrorists could take our freedoms away. They don't realize that our government already did that when they passed the patriot act.
These people have drunk the government's propaganda big time.
They hate Obama, think he lost the Iraq war, maybe they don't know about the SOFA made by Bush, but think he has made ISIL worse. Which he has because as you noted, he isn't actually trying to destroy them, but protect his CIA terrorists groups from being bombed by Russia.
And they see no problem with nuking the people in the Middle East.
But they question why the terrorists hate us and why they attacked Paris and Brussels.
They don't understand it's because of foreign policies for over a century that has killed over a billion people.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
Well yes, right you are.
Putting this whole coup affair in a wider context, as you do remarkably well in your comment, is very helpful. Much more so than my simple assertion that there's no evidence, so thank you. And I really should have said, there's no publicly available evidence. In fact it wouldn't surprise me at all if the US did indeed sponsor the coup attempt. I just don't see that Erdogan has proven it.
native
Again, I agree, native. It's all circumstantial.
And this time, there was an important twist: It was a high-level military coup. Thousands have since been kicked out of Turkey's military. It does sound a little like Erdogan is taunting Kerry to come for a "visit." But who can know?
Under the circumstances, I doubt that any evidence of foreign involvement in the coup will emerge. I also don't think the attempted coup will be tied to any of Turkey's future decisions.
Yeah, circumstantial evidence is about all we'll get
I am fairly certain that Gulen is a CIA asset though, they even sponsored his Green Card application.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
You're asking the wrong question.
Instead asking whether the US was involved, a better question might be:
IMO: there is NO way the Turkish officers commit without backing from somewhere in the US government. Just doesn't make sense.
The current working assumption appears to be that our Shroedinger's Cat system is still alive. But what if we all suspect it's not, and the real problem is we just can't bring ourselves to open the box?
Absolutely! n/t
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
No proof?
You may have missed the lockdown of Incirlik Air Base. Or the round up of people connected with Gulen and the CIA (they are a thing).
Whether or not Gulen was part of the failed coup is beside the point. Gulen is an enemy of Erdogan, and Erdogan is using him as a symbol for the US. You see, he accuses Gulen, and Gulen is owned by the CIA. And the question of proof is moot. It's not that you, reading western press accounts, sees the US involved in the coup. It's what the Turks, and more importantly, Erdogan sees.
Going with Russia and Iran instead of NATO has any number of advantages over the status quo. For ex, Putin hasn't tried to overthrow Erdogan. If Erdogan does throw his lot in with the East the war in Syria will end. The "ha ha" moderates and ISIS will both go down without aid streaming in from Turkey. The refugee crisis will end when peace is restored.
You might want to read about Operation Gladio, too.
You're right, Bob. I've revised my thinking.
It was folly to think that a coup could happen in a hot geopolitical hub without the deep involvement of the CIA.
If the shoe was on the other foot, we'd already be bombing.
So honestly, It's not about morals or doing the right thing.
We've demanded extraditions on far flimsier evidence.
There's no money in extraditing him.
Now If Turkey was to sweeten the pot with some oil contracts or campaign contributions, we would have that guy in cuffs faster than you can say "Predictable Corruption"
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
The fact that we couldn't be bothered
to send a representative to Turkey is "a tell".
I'd say it's a "tell"
that the US would have shed no tears, had the coup succeeded. I do not see it as evidence that the CIA was involved in planning or actively aiding the coup attempt. Though it's certainly possible, maybe even probable, that CIA had advance warnings and kept mum about them.
native
Kerry will be in Turkey in two weeks. One can only guess
the messages he will be carrying.
Maybe Erdogan's visit to Putin will give the latter some counterweight to Kerry's demands.
"The justness of individual land right is not justifiable to those to whom the land by right of first claim collectively belonged"
Wasn't it Germany last week that refused to extradite
someone else who was "behind the coup"? Using a failed coup as an excuse to get rid of political opponents; (in exile) it's what dictators do.
On to Biden since 1973
Turkey for Islamic control? Why?
The U.S. would NOT want another Islamic state in the mideast, no? But if you look at the history of what the U.S. has accomplished in the mideast you see a pattern that is just the OPPOSITE - make more and more areas of the mideast SEEM to be under radical Islamic control. This gives the U.S. the pretext of fighting radical Islamic terrorists, while simultaneously devouring the previous country's administration and freeing up another potential enemy of Israel. Just read the program of the U.S. Neocons Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer- and include Victoria Nuland inthe bunch. Only now with Russia in the mix it make it harder to allow extremists? or limits the truth of what we can report from those areas? We can't keep on calling Russia the trouble maker in Syria while the number of deaths keeps dwindling, life is more important than trying to dictate our policies in trouble areas of the mid-east. Quit wasting our tax dollars on neocon dreams that are never going to materialize and fix our fu*king roads, bridges, water systems and infrastructure....
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
I would not believe a word
of anything that comes out of Tayyip Erdogan's mouth. Not about Gulen, or about the CIA, or about anything else. As for Turkey (under his rule) being a valuable ally of the USA, I don't see how. He's been financing and cooperating with Syrian jihadis from the get-go (while enriching himself in the process) and his project of of transforming Turkey into an Islamist-dominated dictatorship is already well underway. He's trying to extort the EU of billions by threatening to release hoards of migrants across his borders.
This guy is supposed to be an ally? But why? Because Incirlik? Right, the place he's now got now surrounded by Turkish troops, and uses as another extortion demand. The sooner the US pulls its nukes out of Incirlik, the better. And while we're at it, this would be an excellent occasion to give up on the impossible dream of "getting rid" of Assad. Better to let Tayyip try to do that on his own.
To hell with Erdogan. It's high time to call his bluff, and Obama is absolutelycorrect in refusing to accede to his ridiculous demands. If Erdogan wants to flee into the arms of Russia and Iran, he is perfectly free to do so. Europe certainly doesn't need him, and neither does NATO. I'm not sure either Russia or Iran will love him to pieces either.
native
Erdogan's bluff will be alliance to Russia...
Turkey owes us nothing. But the U.S. getting OUR nukes out of Turky will be a good trick. Hope we fail...
Peace
FN
"Democracy is technique and the ability of power not to be understood as oppressor. Capitalism is the boss and democracy is its spokesperson." Peace - FN
Sussing out what's actually going on is no simple task.
There is some interesting discussion and exploration of possibilities in a July post at Boiling Frogs with Sibel Edmunds.
I found it a useful primer on the players and what the endgame might be from a decidedly non USA/CIA/NATO perspective. I remain confused and uncertain, but increasingly curious nonetheless. The viewpoints presented in the MSM don't even scratch the surface.
“ …and when we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine,and understand who God is, and what our own potential is and duties are as human beings.- RFK jr. 8/26/2024
Recent developments in Aleppo
Given the extent to which moderate jihadist forces are beating back, at least right now, Syrians/Russians in Aleppo, the restocking and re-arming, and increase of moderate head choppers could only have happened under Turkish approval. This makes me believe Erdogan is playing off both Russia and the West to get bunches of concessions. In the end, Erdogan will remain with the West as that is where the wealth is at, and also, he knows he can bully the Europeans any time he wants and get away with it.
You do realize,
that the term "moderate jihadist forces" is oxymoronic?
But yes, Turkey is helping them with their current assault on southwest Aleppo. R+6 forces are defending there, and it is not clear whether, or to what extent these are being "beaten back". It seems to be more of a see-saw battle at the moment. In the north of the city however, R+6 have completely sealed off the jihadis from an escape route, thus encircling and effectively laying siege to whatever is left of East Aleppo. The concerted attack from the southwest, drawing fighters from all across the country, is a desperate attempt to break the siege.
I think Erdogan's heyday of double-dealing and playing both ends against the middle in Syria, may be nearing its end. Perhaps Putin (clever fellow that he is) is trying to prolong it for obscure reasons of his own. But Erdogan has been gleefully burning bridges behind him, right and left. How much longer will "the West" continue going out of its way to repair them?
native
Are you talking about Jabhat Fatah al-Sham?
That's actually Nusra, they're just going by a new name because of the bad brand associations the last one developed. CNN covered them recently somehow, and never even hjnted at who they were.
Same dogshit, different can.
"Obama promised transparency, but Assange is the one who brought it."
There's the one certainty
with Erdoghan: he wants a new caliphate and he wants it as part of a restored Ottoman empire. He knows he can play Russia and the US toward that end.
Orwell: Where's the omelette?
US Trying To Prevent Islamification
Erdogan has been openly touting the establishment of Sharia in Turkey to replace a secular society he hates. The US doesn't want to endure another Iranian Islamic Revolution which threw out the US puppet Shah Reza Pahlavi and cost American multinationals billions. There is also the issue of the Incirlik air base, which has been revealed to be the home of at least 50 nuclear weapons. With that gone, the US can't threaten a nuclear attack against Russia without putting another host nation (such as Germany) at risk.
Follow the money is still sage advice.
Vowing To Oppose Everything Trump Attempts.
I don't know if this is a reliable source or not, but
Wow: Julian Assange Just Delivered the Next Batch of Emails! She’s Toast!
There's more at the link and like I said, I can't vouch for the reliability of the source, but thought I'd throw it out there. (They do have a copy of what appears to be the email.)
I have stated that if the CGI was ever dismantled
It would destroy many people in our government and in foreign governments, too.
Good Gawd, everywhere one looks the Clinton foundation is involved.
The tentacles of the foundation reaches all over the world.
Swarmiest couple ever in political power.
Scientists are concerned that conspiracy theories may die out if they keep coming true at the current alarming rate.
No, B4IN is not a reliable source.
nor is it intended to be one. As per its administrators:
"We don’t screen ANYTHING on the site, except for Terms of Service violations and when people complain.
It’s You Tube for news. That’s all it is.
Yes, some stories might stretch the truth and some might not even be true. You can say the same thing for mainstream news outlets, can’t you?"
native
This is all too bad.
I met some Turks when I was in the Navy 35 years ago. Great, fun people. Big drinkers and lousy chess players. I've always wanted to visit there. I've always been a live and let live person who thinks we should keep our noses out of other countries' business. Just like Bush Sr. did in Tiananmen Square.
The real SparkyGump has passed. It was an honor being your human.
Turkey sounds serious
edging away from NATO
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