How to spot the corporate shills amongst us.
There has been an obvious infiltration of corporate shills on C99. And I'm not talking the blatant ones recently. I'm talking people who have been here all along, pretending to be our friends when in reality, they're trying to subtly defuse any populist movement getting behind Jill Stein.
But before I start pointing out examples of their activities on C99, just as I once did on TOS - which is what got me banned from there the first time - take a moment to read what Caitlin Johnstone wrote in How to spot a shill in 8 easy steps.
In an address to the Green party convention, Julian Assange warned Jill Stein voters that Hillary’s online paid shills will be relentless in their attacks in the coming weeks.
“… let me tell you that I’ve just seen that the attacks have started to ramp up on Jill Stein. They are going to go through the roof. I’ve had attacks from what is effectively the Clinton threat machine. They’re now post-convention. You guys are going to be post-convention. Those attacks are going to be ferocious. But you’ll see from that and learn lessons from that about how the media works and how one can defend your principles and ideas in the face of that kind of media corruption.”
What does that even mean, though? It means that even if you’re a light user of social media, you will probably be trolled at some point. And you probably won’t even know it.
To sum up the 8 ways for the TL;DR crowd:
1: I'm just like you!: The corporate shills are already in place, earning street cred here all along.
2: Bait And Switch: "I love Jill Stein, but...."
3: Someone told me this rumor about Jill, can you check it out for me?: Casting suspicion while attempting to seem innocent. The goal is to suppress your enthusiasm.
4: Divide and Conquer: Jill is anti-vaccine. Doesn't matter if it's a lie, so long as it suppresses enthusiasm.
5: Self-Fulfilling Prophecies: The old narrative was Clinton was "inevitable". The new one is Stein is a "wasted vote".
6: Decoy Insults: Again, going to the 'wasted vote' meme, insulting you for the consequences of voting for Jill. But it requires you to buy into the Jill can't win meme to even make sense.
7: Astroturfing: when Hillary pays people to attend her rallies.
8: Divide And Demoralize: Remember the violent Bernie supporters who threw chairs, etc.? yeah, didn't happen. but it was used to suppress enthusiasm and seed doubt.
So let's see how these tactics have been applied at C99.
First off, let's face a fact: The only viable candidate for former Bernie supporters is Jill Stein. The Green Party is 95% the same platform as Bernie's revolution. You're not going to find what you're looking for from Clinton, Trump or Johnson. And there isn't time to start a brand new party. Who would even be the candidate? No. The only alternative to Bernie has always been Jill Stein.
Having cheated Bernie out of the election, the shills must do everything they can to suppress enthusiasm for Jill Stein.
From an essay in April I don't want to link to because I'm not trying to call people out here, just educate everyone: (in response to a comment that the poster would vote for Jill if Bernie didn't win)
What do you expect to accomplish by voting Green?
Goals, purpose? It's obvious Jill Stein can't win, so what the goal of voting for the Green party? Is it a protest vote? Trying to build the Green party up?
Notice the poster is either a shill, reinforcing the "Jill can't win" meme from the get go, or passing that meme on because it's been drilled into his head so hard he believes it. No one thought Bernie had a chance in hell once upon a time too.
In the above case it's most likely a paid shill. further down that thread, another poster pointed out that
you've been pushing this "boycott" thing all day, and it just makes zero sense. Many others besides myself have told you this, and yet you continue to push it and push it pretty persistently. Kudos for you to be such a believer of your own ideas--one has to have faith in one's self, after all--but it's as if you and a bunch of other folks didn't already have this same conversation 18 hours ago in a different comment thread/post.Yes indeed, there's room for differing opinions here--so I expect mine to matter, too. And IMO, there are "opinions" and then there's "pointed repetition". This is probably a really good time to point out that there are a whole lot of quite-savvy veterans and refugees of Trial Balloon Central that have migrated here, whose Spidey sense at sussing out pointed repetition has gotten pretty damned accurate over the years,
Of course, the possible shill doesn't want someone pointing out their tactics so the possible shill then told the above poster to "stay the fuck away from me."
Immediately, of course, the shills street creds were massaged by another poster telling him to "Just keep being you." Because these shills work as teams. Of course, that could also have simply been the shills sock puppet.
And of course, the person in question might not even be a shill at all. That's what makes them so successful, they convince the masses to buy into their negativity.
I intended to show a lot of examples, including one in which two posters - I noticed they tend to work in pairs on C99 - were saying Jill Stein was arrogant. But to do so would inevitably end up exposing actual posters on here and some of them might be innocent dupes getting played. I have no desire to start that shit storm. I only desire to open people's eyes.
the bottom line is this: The shills are here. Their goal is to suppress enthusiasm for Jill Stein. Reinforce the "wasted vote" meme whenever possible - though that's become less and less successful on this site. Reinforce the "Jill can't win" meme has had greater success. Keep pushing for any other option than Jill (starting a new party, one with no leader lol). And, of course, defeatist essays and comments.
There are far more Stein supporters than the MSM would have you think. She CAN win this. They'll do anything to keep you from believing that.
Or, as Caitlin put it:
In the end, you can only make yourself aware that these things are going on, scroll past anyone who is obviously baiting, and keep your focus set on the positives of your candidate, and the future you want to create. Educate yourself about your candidate and her vision and enthuse about her relentlessly, and don’t engage anyone casting suspicion or trying to tell you your vote is being wasted. Just press “like”. That really confuses them.
Comments
What's Up? It's called Freedom of Speech
Sure, it's ludicrous in this case, but there you have it all the same. This is exactly why the "shill fear" is a problem. In fact it's a much bigger problem than the shills themselves. I can easily read a post from someone and decide I disagree with it. If I think it's "shill-ey" enough, I'll simply ignore it entirely hoping to starve it to death. Even the opinion of a paid shill is still just an opinion. Salem Witch Trials, on the other hand, destroy the community.
In simple answer to your question, I hope to build a viable third party and/or a coherent enough voting bloc to influence the two major parties. I recognize this won't happen this year or next.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Some of the very names I decided to keep out
found their way here and piped up about Jill not being electable (sound familiar?) or attacked me.
People can draw their own conclusions. I certainly do.
To JtC, who runs this great website: As for the Big Migration in July, I didn't realize there was a second one. I came in the first one in March when Kos issued his edict. I only came because I stumbled upon a link. I'd already left Kos. So JtC, this place of yours is now full of ex Bernie supporters from two migrations. They have a common experience with paid shills. Thus I feel this essay is very pertinent to them and from the response, it would seem I am correct. I'm not saying this is a Jill STein site, but a large % of the people here support Jill Stein and should be aware that some who post here sound exactly like paid shills.
And if it walks like a duck....
I meant March...
what you are suggesting with this witchhunt is no different than the echo chamber at Daily Kos. Should I purge all non-Green members here? Is that what you want, because I'll tell you that is the antithesis of what this site is about.
What is so hard to understand about "all opinions are welcome here as long as the discussion is civil"? That's what this site is about.
Let the admins and moderators determine who are paid shills or not.
Please don't change the narrative.
This essay is not about instigating a witch hunt. I went to great lengths to avoid that. Some are going to great lengths to turn it into that.
It's about making people more politically savvy. So they don't fall for the shills tricks. So they recognize what these paid shills do and how they do it.
It was never about hunting them down. Never.
Ehhhhh, not so much. The problem with lists like:
"10 "key indicators of ..." is that each and every such indicator is also possibly an indicator of about 12 other things. Thus one cannot become politically savvy by learning that disagreeing with position x on grounds y could be a divisive subterfuge by the forces of evil because one probably should've figured that out anyway, with respect to any conceivable statement, just as they should realize that any conceivable statement could be an honest personal opinion of the person stating it, or a statement of a general rule of thumb, etc.
We've had Hill shills and Trump shills and survived because nobody really gave a shit. We've had true believer Berners and now hardcore Stein supporters and that's cool too. But, at the end of the day an anti-Green shill or anti-Trump or anti-Hillary or anti-Berniecampaigner, paid of otherwise, as long as they aren't too disruptive, repetitive or impolite is fine, 'cause this site supports none of those folks because it is concerned with ideas. We don't need to know if so-and-so's criticism of candidate z is sincere or not, because what matters, if anything, is whether or not the criticism is valid.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Yes, exactly! I sometimes think I spot them but one way or
another, it's really just invalid criticism. So stick to the issues.
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I am allowed to critize
any pol or political party anywhere on earth here. I like it like that. I'm no shill for Hill, Jill or Bernie or The Hairball. I took Bob Dylan's excellent advise and I 'don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters.' Trolls and shills my ass. You'll notice that the die hard Democratic Killary supporters do not get much traction and tend to flee.
As for Jill she too is a pol and the Greens are pretty ineffective at being any kind of 'viable' party at this point. Hell they can't even get a decent geek to do their live feeds. Telling me that Jill is the only option I have as a Bernie supporter makes me mad lot's of us here we're skeptical about Bernie and some didn't fall for his fake revolution. Perhaps we listened to his FP stances and his refusal to really take her on. I don't buy the but he had to cause he had integrity bs. one bit.
What your advocating is the cult of persona like I'm with her or him or whoever the next greatest savior leader is. I don't care if you all want to wave your Green pompoms all over the place but please do not accuse those of us who see things differently or do not believe in the politics or the pols of mass deception of being shills, trolls and throwing people under the bus. This site is not partisan and I do believe the Greens are a political party.
As for saying I she cannot win, so what she can't. The Greens have never in my life seemed like they want to be a viable alternative to the duopoly. Can they ever be, who knows but to say that it's now or never and there is no time to build a new party is chicken little bs. Politics are not static neither is history. You might consider listening to what Big Al, or those of us who are not true believers have to say instead of writing them off as shills trolls or paid operatives. lol.
Maybe you Berner's who have now taken up Jill's shoe since Bernie threw his in with the Clinton's could use some push back on your fan club mentality. I have said many of the things that you listed as shilling or trolling. Big Al is not a troll or a shill either as it turned out he was freaking right about Bernie. He calls them as he see's them.
Who I or anyone votes for is none of your bee's wax. I have had enough with partisan follower fanatic's and cultist's telling me what my only alternative is. I watched the Green convention and saw how they operate. I did not like one bit David Cobb or their convention. I agreed with Assange when he said 'Did you not test this?' How can they be a contender in this election?
I see the value of voting for Jill as a protest vote so that the Greens can qualify to be an 'official' party but that doesn't mean this is our only option. It also doesn't mean that the Greens are going to be the answer or even want to be. I will vote for Jill this surreal election but in no way will I stop voicing my opinion of Jill, Hill, Bernie or the Hairball.
And yet
I've counted you as one of the people I trust from the day I got here and I've not trusted Big Al from day one. Why? Because your opinions don't set off my red flags. Big Al may not be a shill at all, I've said so in this essay. But his response could have came out of the corporates for Hillary Handbook.
Funny, though, I purposefully left names out of this because I knew that true shills would turn it into a personal attack and what is happening? Even though I left people out of it, those same people - not counting you shaharazade - are turning it into a personal attack anyways.
That's just too much coincidence to be coincidence. I'm thinking they're actually guilty as charged.
You have no idea how funny that is. He pretty much got
tossed out of Hillsville for being abrasively anti-Hill (and anti-Dem). This is because he supports the Big Al calls 'em as he sees 'em party and he doesn't have a lot of patience with a lot of things.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I hope you don't trust me.
I'm a paid shill. LOL!
I crack myself up!!!!!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
I knew it!
Nobody over the age of about 25 really has a flat ass.
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I had to come clean!
I had to out myself. It's the only way to redemption.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
In order to redeem yourself, let's trade.
I'll be the paid shill for a while. I can use the money. Just hook me up with... wait, who are we supposed to be shilling for again?
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Shill for me! I'm starting the Binary Religion & Party. Tell
people to install a digital clock gadget on their online devices and to say "binary" during each of the 96 times per day that such a number appears. You'll be paid with superdelegate sainthoods. Unlike bitcoins, they can't be hacked.
Please consider subscribing monthly, to help keep c99 going.
Age is hell!
I don't remember, either!
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
My vote doesn't matter
because I live in a 90% lean Republican red state. I'd like to see the Electoral College done away with so the president is selected by popular vote instead. (I'd also like world peace, an end to global warming, mandatory organic growing for foodstuffs and, oh yeah, taxing the sh*t out of the 1%.)
More than likely I will vote Green because their issues align with mine, and I am disgusted with the Dems and not just because of their nominee. However, I admit that if I lived in a swing state I'd think about it differently.
I don't mind hearing from people with different opinions, it's all part of a long conversation.
Something was left off the list- Create a paranoid environment
To me this community is a great forum that contains free thinkers and people that have and value open opinions. There are many times I read something and it makes me think or do more research. Moreover, I try my best to post clear, concise and correct data in my comments and essays.
Therefore, my advice to people do not take things on face value (do your homework and ask questions), listen (or read), if you disagree then disagree and do not be a dick when interacting with people. Basically, explain why you in a civil manner support or not agree with someone. Guess what it is freaking okay to disagree because we do not want to be clones and need to realize we have to value/respect others opinions or positions (agree to disagree is okay).
I have found if you ask anyone a reasonable questions and they can not support or explain their position, opinions or arguments then guess what move on from the discussion. If someone pesters you then ignore them and the pest will fly away (yes this is a pun about a fly being a bug).
Peace
{Insert applause break here} Well Said...
I couldn't agree more.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
You Guys Are Cool
I mostly lurk here, but I appreciate the site's stance regarding debate very much.
Because I'm a leftist who supported Bernie and now advocates Anybody But Clinton, there are a whole lot of places where my perspective is unwelcome. It enrages me that the corporate media is covering for Clinton and acting like Trump is some new order of evil, when he's basically just saying the quiet parts out loud of standard Republican messaging, plus moving left on the two issues the elite will not tolerate: global war and global corporate domination. (Okay, it's really one issue with two prongs.) But when I point that sort of thing out, I often get accused of backing Trump, when my point really is that he's the lesser evil. Because he's the lesser evil, I can vote however I want. The whole herding/shaming argument is moot to me. I live in California, so the odds are that my vote doesn't matter at all. But if through some miracle Stein got within striking distance of Clinton in California, I would HAPPILY give her my vote, just on that basis. No California, No President Clinton. I may vote Green anyway, although I'm currently planning on voting Peace and Freedom. I would also be perfectly willing to vote Trump, if he was in striking distance in California. I could go into all the reasons why Clinton would be the more effective evil, and how the red scare she's ramping up shut down any left progress, but that's not the focus of this comment.
With the manufactured consent and information suppression in the media and culture, reading people arguing out such difficult, inflammatory issues rather than seeing a lot of banning and blocking is a huge relief to me. I know it's difficult for those involved. I have been there. So I don't mean to minimize how upsetting it is to be attacked and labeled and insulted. But you're doing something important, and I deeply appreciate it.
Also, I believe I have previously, on this site, probably in the middle of the night, written about how Jill Stein can't win. I'm not a shill either. All issues of organization and policy aside, she can't win because Clinton has already shown an ability to rig the vote by more than 10% in many large "blue" states. And Stein would need to win every single blue state, plus some more. She can't win, because we don't have a democracy.
But given that we don't have a democracy, but the government is still going through the motions of having an election, because that's less costly in many ways than declaring Hillary Empress, voting does matter, at least a little bit. Vote Green and help move the Overton Window further, and continue one of the most important achievements of Sanders' campaign: demonstrating that we are NOT a center-right country. We are a left-socialist country. Even majorities of Republican voters want democratic socialist policies, when stripped of the tribal identifiers. Vote Green and get them federal funding, which will go back into the local economy, presumably, instead of into Clinton crony back accounts offshore. Vote Green, give Paul Manafort a chance to fight rigging against rigging, and accept that putting Trump into the Presidency is the actual better outcome long term for progressives and leftists. We can make him a one term president. Regardless of his own desires and actions, electing him probably scares enough Rs into not passing TPP.
My biggest fear with newly passionate Stein supporters making unrealistic assertions about November is that they'll crawl back to Hillary in the end. She doesn't care if you like her. Even staying home works for her, because low turnout is easier to rig. So when I pipe up about how unrealistic it is to assert that Stein can win, it is not because I'm a shill. It's that I think the more citizens on the left accept how horrible this situation is, the more we can steel ourselves to do what's necessary to achieve progress long term. And that's a problem with the kinds of sites that want to choke off certain kinds of discussion. Yes, there are paid operatives flooding the Internet, muddying discourse in myriad ways. But their tactics are only effective if you fall into emotive traps, or fail to factor in how much corporate media is propaganda rather than information.
I guess the TLDR is: we need more debate not less, across a wider, not narrower field. Thank you to the founders and primary players of Caucus99 for providing a forum for that.
I gave you a thumbs up, although I think Hill is marginally
better than Trump. But this is the kind of discussion I like to see too. I'll probably vote Stein and hope the voting machines are unrigged by then.
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I often get accused of backing Trump,
I am quite willing to back Trump if it makes Hillary lose, and I've been given shit about it here. JtC had my back. This place is non-partisan and allows all discussion as long as it is civil and accurate. What I don't like and have a hard time tolerating is hotheads. Sticks and stones and all that jazz.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
As another Californian, might I chime in and say
that I think that voting for Jill could potentially reap more benefits that voting for anyone else (except perhaps Johnson)? While I strongly advocating for any third party at all and Peace and Freedom is a fantastic party, enough votes could change whether Jill reaches at least the crucial 5% national leave (I'm certainly not one of those people who thinks that Jill Stein could win, even if there was no rigging. People are so blind and Nader is such a whipping boy, that it could never happen. I would be massively happy with that 5%, myself). If I thought Peace and Freedom had a better chance to hit that 5%, I would definitely be voting for them myself (and it would be wonderful because at the very least, they aren't carrying out the baggage that the Green party is). Of course, is CA is somehow close that changes things (of course...if CA is close, Trump has won every swing state and several Blue states as well, so it still goes back to the same scenario where CA won't be affecting the EC).
California
That's a good point, about the 5%. I'll keep it in mind.
Having said that, my vote is pretty much guaranteed not to be counted. If you know about all the different tactics Padilla used to get Hillary that win, then you know what I mean. I #Demexited on 7/12, hours after that awful thing in New Hampshire. So I'm probably already flagged in the file to be one of those set aside, whited-out, and shredded. I guess if I go to the polling place instead of doing VBM, I have a chance of having the majority of my vote count (after fractionalizing) after being run through the scanner. Although my whole neighborhood was a Bernie stronghold, so maybe we'll all just be wholesale flipped.
Part of me still can't believe this is what voting really is here.
I switched to Green myself.
And I'm VBM. So that might be an issue for me too.
Fight! Fight!
I'm more tolerant than you.
Are not.
Am too.
Not.
Am.
Etc.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
In my opinion
A better way to have written this would've been simply to suggest that people ignore any statement which isn't factually based and verifiable. That tosses out your entire list below without worrying about who's a shill and who isn't.
1: I'm just like you!: The corporate shills are already in place, earning street cred here all along.
So what? At one point we thought similarly and now we don't.
2: Bait And Switch: "I love Jill Stein, but...."
So what? I don't care who you love. I care about policy positions.
3: Someone told me this rumor about Jill, can you check it out for me?: Casting suspicion while attempting to seem innocent. The goal is to suppress your enthusiasm.
Rush Limbaugh tactics alive and well. Anyone who falls for the accusation phrased as a question gambit deserves what they get.
4: Divide and Conquer: Jill is anti-vaccine. Doesn't matter if it's a lie, so long as it suppresses enthusiasm.
Without citations, so what? Just more political propaganda. Anyone who doesn't research things like this is already lost to the machine.
5: Self-Fulfilling Prophecies: The old narrative was Clinton was "inevitable". The new one is Stein is a "wasted vote".
So what? It's my vote. I think I ought to get to choose how I spend it and what value I expect from it. The "wasted vote" argument rests on an entire bed of assumptions that I don't buy into.
6: Decoy Insults: Again, going to the 'wasted vote' meme, insulting you for the consequences of voting for Jill. But it requires you to buy into the Jill can't win meme to even make sense.
So What? I appreciate this tactic because it makes it much easier to know how to ignore. Anyone who cannot press their case in adult terms clearly has no point I need to hear.
7: Astroturfing: when Hillary pays people to attend her rallies.
So what? Hillary's been doing this for years. She is perfectly willing to deceive us through manipulations of media... social and otherwise. This is well documented so really shouldn't be a stunning news flash.
8: Divide And Demoralize: Remember the violent Bernie supporters who threw chairs, etc.? yeah, didn't happen. but it was used to suppress enthusiasm and seed doubt.
The whole divide and demoralize concept rests on the fact that I've bought into any of the eight previous meta-points... all of which are utterly devoid of any meaningful content.
Moving on to your specific examples...
Yeah... all except for two things. For starters, it is wildly unlikely that Jill will win and Bernie didn't win... not even close. So it's hard for me to argue that someone who thinks "Jill can't win" is either paid for that opinion or too stupid to reason things out for themselves.
My point here is that you could've supported your cause by simply urging people to stick to a reality based mindset. Rather, you got into attacking the messenger and the particular messenger you attacked is laughable.
A lot of wanderers in the U.S. political desert recognize that all the duopoly has to offer is a choice of mirages. Come, let us trudge towards empty expanse of sand #1, littered with the bleached bones of Deaniacs and Hope and Changers.
-- lotlizard
Thom Hartman
??????
Now he's a shill for the party....
He would support anyone running with a D.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Apolitical means we each make our own conclusions
and do our secret ballot vote (or not) in November. This site is about more people-oriented matters than who will be Prez. If we are the Free-Thinks who swam here from Dkos or whatever, we must nourish that Free-Thinking part. We (since I have been here, April??) have had some losses of voices who I considered Free-Thinkers. Please all, bring your compostibles here! we read and digest differently, to be expected. I did not come here to stay as part of any political group. YMMV.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
i defer to lunachickie and her wonderful essay
http://caucus99percent.com/content/well-we-must-be-doing-something-right
the same should apply here. ignore them.
"Hold my nose" posts are my favorites.
They're the ones where they lay out, in extensive detail, some problematic element of her recorded, and finish with, "but I'll hod my nose and vote for her anyway because Trump." (as if such votes were counted any differently)
The goal is to discount her crookedness and to sell the notion that even Very Serious People who are well acquainted with her ethics still prefer her to Trump, or as Serious People would have it, Hitler,Jr. Never mind the little noticed (and never"mainstreamed) fact that he and the Clintons were on friendly terms not so long ago.
"Hold my nose" posts are my favorites.
They're the ones where they lay out, in extensive detail, some problematic element of her recorded, and finish with, "but I'll hod my nose and vote for her anyway because Trump." (as if such votes were counted any differently)
The goal is to discount her crookedness and to sell the notion that even Very Serious People who are well acquainted with her ethics still prefer her to Trump, or as Serious People would have it, Hitler,Jr. Never mind the little noticed (and never"mainstreamed) fact that he and the Clintons were on friendly terms not so long ago.
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