Deconstructing the Nader-Spoiler Smear Tactic
If you are considering "wasting" {cough} your Vote this fall, consider this ...
Now that Hillary Clinton has wrapped up the Democratic Presidential nomination with the endorsement of Bernie Sanders, her supporters have transitioned to denigrating progressives who affirm they are “Bernie or Bust” by supporting Green Party Presidential Candidate Jill Stein over Clinton. [...]
Funny how Clinton supporters resort to Fear & Smear -- when it comes to former Sanders supporters (who are quite determined to continue with the movement on their own terms).
Funny how Clinton supporters have a hard time telling you who to Vote for (and Why) -- but only who to Vote against.
"A vote for Stein is like a vote for Nader!" or so goes their latest Fear tactic.
Well here's some analysis that says otherwise:
The Spoiler Myth: Clinton Has More Problems Than Jill Stein and the Bernie or Busters
by Michael J. Sainato, counterpunch.org -- Aug 5, 2016
Critics against Stein cite Ralph Nader and his running mate, Native American activist Winona LaDuke, as the spoilers of the 2000 election, in which he received over 90,000 votes in Florida, the state Gore lost by just over 500 votes. Had Gore won Florida, he would have won the general election, but those who smear Nader as a spoiler are ignoring other contributing factors to that election.
• Bill Clinton’s impeachment in December 1998 inspired helped inspire over 300,000 registered Democrats in Florida to vote for Bush in the general election.
• According to Florida exit polls, only a small percentage of Nader supporters would have voted for Gore instead of Bush, with most citing they wouldn’t have voted at all.
• The Supreme Court ruled, controversially, to halt the recount in Florida. [When finally completed months later, the uncounted "write-in" ballots showed that Al Gore had actually won Florida.]
• A study conducted by the Progressive Review in 2002 analyzed whether Al Gore’s polling prior to the general election inversely changed with Ralph Nader’s and no correlation was found.
• Voter turnout in Florida for the general election in 2000 was 70 percent, according to the Florida Division of Elections, a few percentage points lower than each general election Florida since then. Across the country in 2000, more than 100 million eligible voters didn’t cast a ballot.
Question: Which one of variables is no longer a factor in the current Presidential contest?
If Clinton can't win based on her own merit -- then does she really deserve to win, at all?
That is the real spoiler-effect that Clinton-supporters dread, more so than who you may or may not vote for
-- But rather, that too many people just might sit this one out (because the "official" Candidates are really just that bad, in terms of character, judgment, and their ultimate political intent).
Being a Spoiler is really something that belongs to the eye of the beholder ... and it kind of boils down to this:
• Who is "spoiling" what, for whom?
Comments
Israel n/t
Only connect. - E.M. Forster
Nothing, except that Bush claimed a relationship between Iraq
and 911. Hence, my statement that Gore might not have attacked Iraq. IOW, Gore might not have made up the same lie as Bush did--with help from Kerry, Hillary, et al. However, that does not mean Gore would not have started a war somewhere else over 911.
My post did not state or imply any connection between 911 and Iraq, other than that was how Bush chose to justify invading Iraq, again, with a lot of help from prominent Democrats.
It's not right for a corrupt political party to accuse another
party of spoiling. No party that has engaged in criminal like behavior should be considered more legitimate than a party that has not engaged in criminal like behavior. In fact, for that reason, I would say the Green party is more legitimate than the Democratic party and the Republican party.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Spoiling what? The Democratic Party's sense of entitlement to
zero competition, other than from the Republican Party? Screw that!
It's not about the DNC. In a nation of about 360 million, American voters. deserve more than just two choices, especially when those two choices seem to have devolved to family members of former Presidents.
You Can Get Anything You Want...
at Alice's Restaurant. Well... maybe not so much anymore.
Restaurant Owner: Good afternoon. On today's menu, we have a shit sandwich sprinkled with shards of broken glass, and then alternatively, we have a shit sandwich garnished with rusty nails.
Customer: Well, I really don't think I would care to order any kind of shit sandwich. What else do you have?
Owner: Those are the only items on our menu. Which do you prefer?
Customer: Um, neither. Guess I will have to find another place to have lunch. So long.
Owner: Do you realize that by denying me your business, I will have to lay off all my employees, and they won't be able to buy food or pay their rent? How can you live with yourself???
inactive account
Clever metaphor
I choose a different Menu.
I take a dim view
of so-called "strategic" voting in general, and the R-D duopoly we are obliged to endure, in particular. Being offered the limited choice of either a warmonger or a sociopath for President of the USA does not conform to my idea of what a democracy is supposed to be. In fact, I'm surprised that so many Americans blithely accept this state of affairs as being normal and proper.
However effective or ineffective my vote may be, I refuse to give it to a crazy person. If my refusal to endorse one sort of insanity over the other results in some sort of national disaster, am I to be held accountable for that? Well yes I am accountable, in the eyes of both Team Blue and Team Red, because both of them resent the fact that I'm not playing in what they consider to be the only game in town.
OK so maybe it is the only game in town.... for now. But a whole lot of other people besides me are sick and tired of this game and all its bought-off players and crooked referees, false promises and constant doublespeak. And its wars... always more of its wars. And it's just possible that before long, enough of them might decide to exit the Alice-in-Wonderland world of American-politics-as-usual.
native
Whats really sad is I honestly have know idea which is which
in your statement below.
Arguments could be made that they are both both these things...
How pathetic is that?
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
However, the big lie is out there...
And no matter what happens, the follow up lie is in place for this election:
Hillary Wins: It's The Bernie People's Fault she has to do everything the Republicans say, because by not voting for her, they took away the mandate she needed.
Hillary Loses: It's the Bernie People's Fault that we have President Trump, because they didn't vote for her.
Hillary Wins in a Landslide: All Bernie People have proven is that we must not allow challengers to the Democratic Primary to Divide us.
Hillary LOSES in a Landslide: All Bernie People have done is to prove that unless we are unified under the presumed candidate, negative messages will be amplified by our OWN SIDE! We can't have that!
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
I'm not voting for Nadar either.
Nader Schmader...
Better fear another SCOTUS coup d'etat.
"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones."
John Cage
Democratic Senators can stop that, if they choose.
Rather than vote out of fear over the SCOTUS (or fear over anything else), I will vote for the best candidate and do my best to get Democratic Senators to block bad nominees, like Scalia, Thomas and Alito. That's their job under the Constitution, not mine. If they continue not to do their job, that's on them, not on me.
How about this?
"Don't waste your vote by voting. It'll be stolen, rigged or dismissed anyways."
PS I Ralphed already and my vote was stolen. So no one can try to shame me into "voting" their way.
I'm so beyond the whole election crap thing. It's all fake. Off with their heads.
"Love One Another" ~ George Harrison
"Don't vote. It only encourages them."
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway
They say that life's a game and then they take the board away
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
And leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret-- A. Moore
How About Joe Lieberman?
Was Gore's VP choice a factor? How about Lieberman's insistance that "late" military votes be counted?
Or all the Jewish votes for Buchanan? The butterfly ballot?
How about Tipper Gore and her parental advisory warning on "bad" music? Why did Gore lose Tennessee?
Yep. It was all Nader's fault.
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
My husband was of the generation who grew up w/Corvairs
Nader was a cuss word in my house. I had doubts about Gore, but voted for him anyway.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
I did not know that 300,000 registered Florida Dems voted
for Bush in 2000. That alone puts the lie to the spoiler bullshit.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK | "The more I see of the moneyed peoples, the more I understand the guillotine." - G. B. Shaw Bernie/Tulsi 2020
Yep. Also puts the lie to punching at leftist voters.
The right of the Democratic Party gave us Florida 2000.
I was conflicted for quite a while.
Was "throwing away my vote" worth it? Then I watched Reich v Hedges on Democracy Now, and I'm fully committed. Of course I'm voting for Jill Stein.
I used to feel guilty about voting for Ralph Nader. Then I learned about 27,000 votes being shitcanned in Duval County, and understood that the election was absolutely stolen. But it took me a long time to grasp that that's SOP.
Voting for HIllary is throwing away your vote, especially
if you live in a red state or a blue state, as opposed to a swing state (assuming there even is such a thing as a swing state this time around).
But, even in a swing state, voting for Hillary is throwing away your vote. We just might get somewhere, if we all stop being afraid, as politicians try to make us be, and just vote for the candidate we think best. Maybe that's even what the Framers assumed we'd do.
Actually voting for Clinton is better than not voting at all.
I've been told that many times on this site.
Those who post that suffer from the False Dilemma Logical
Fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
The choice is not between voting for Hillary or not voting. The choice is between not voting and voting for someone, be it Hillary or a better candidate than Hillary. I think both Johnson and Stein are better candidates than Hillary. However, I hope those who want someone to Hillary's left vote for Stein, to make clear that desire.
The Borg is Alive and Still in Programming Mode
Today when the CCC (Clinton Chicken Coop at TOPS) was continuing the meme that Jill Stein is anti-science due to her questioning of required vaccinations, I made the comment that perhaps TOPS was the wrong audience if they were trying to convince others not to vote for Stein. Of course, I was criticized, but not flagged because i didn't say anything about Clinton. I suggested they needed other reasons not to vote for Stein. One Clintonista said that the anti-vax issue was a helpful argument for her daughter who used to be for Sanders but now is for Clinton, and the daughter didn't have time to do research to make the case for Clinton to her friends in Washington state. (Chopper-parents I guess).
But this comment made me think of that 1984 Apple commercial mashup that was floated by the Obama campaign in 2008 (this is someone else's, not mine, and I am putting some emphasis on parts that I found alarming) :
[video:https://youtu.be/cWvHbOoG3tI width:200 height:350]
So thanks, Jamess for some deconstruction tools.
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--Tennyson
One Other Deconstruction Comment
If Al Gore had won his home state of Tennessee, Florida would not have mattered. He would have won enough electoral votes.
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--Tennyson
My position on the Nader shibboleth is a little different
I am now saying "Why YES the Greens DID bring Gore down-and we are also responsible for all of your losses in the US Congress, the State legislatures and Governorships. And you'll freaking KEEP losing D seats until you actually address the problem-and that is you are NOT representing the citizens of this country, you're tools of the corporations that fund you". But see-that won't fly-because the Ds, dishonest, dissembling rats that they are, KNOW that Nader didn't cause the loss, just as the Greens didn't make them hemorrhage seats all across the USA-they use that meme as a threat to keep leftish people voting for them,and to hippy-punch in general. (It DOES serve to accentuate the ridiculousness of that position, though) I can only hope that the left can bring Clinton down, and be SEEN TO HAVE BROUGHT HER DOWN. THEN we get power.
You're right about that
The Left will never have political power until it puts a few prominent heads on pikes. The entire argument for LOTE voting is to prevent this from happening. The Democratic party wants to keep us safely corralled in the veal pen, where we can't exercise our muscles and grow up.
I don't think we can defeat Hillary this year by voting for Jill Stein, although I think the election will probably wind up being closer than it currently looks. The best outcome I can see is a 1-3 point Clinton win over Trump, with Stein getting 5+ percent. That would at least show Democrats that they are losing the left, in sufficient numbers that their future does not look as rosy as Hillary's hagiographers would have it. They can then decide if they want to actually woo us with accomplishments, or continue their metamorphosis into Republicans. My bet would be on the latter. But at least it would be public and unambiguous.
Please help support caucus99percent!
yep. With the HRC
win under their belt the Dem party has no where else to go except further Right, into the arms of the Repubs. They should feel so proud.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
They've whined about Nader for 16 years and counting and Nader
did not defeat Gore. Just the start of having their success with "Fear helping the Republican" and "Buggitah, Buggitah, Supreme Court" crumble will be enough for me.
Damn, I wish I could bookmark this comment.
Particularly this part
That's the ONLY way we can change the democratic party. Meekly falling in line sure as hell hasn't worked for progressives for the last several decades...
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Well...
the part you quote is not terribly original (though I don't remember the source) but bookmarking a comment is trivial.
Point at the comment title and right click. Copy Link Location. Paste or Bookmark as you desire. The link you want is this one-
http://caucus99percent.com/comment/150345#comment-150345
I didn't deliberately plagiarize that thought, and I'm
sure many others have had similar before me, but after your wonderful comment, I did some sleuthing and found this, the most likely source/springboard of mine, since I read Ian fairly regularly:
"The left must be seen to repudiate Obama, and they must be seen to take him down. If the left does not do this, left wing politics and policies will be discredited with Obama."
http://www.ianwelsh.net/the-primary-obama-movement-begins-today/
Indeed, it's called parallel thinking, hardly plagiarizing.
When there are as many people now with access to the same information it is an almost certainty that someone else will have expressed similar sentiments. Even more so if they have similar backgrounds/life experiences.
Parallel thinking doesn't just occur with the written word, history is rife with examples of people, worlds apart, inventing the same technology around the same time.
Since we are all building on what has come before it is only logical to expect such things.
So, don't consider yourself a plagiarist, think of yourself as someone that had a similar thought as another that you admire.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
But please, call it research.
My response to "Fear Trump!" is "If you really fear Trump,
you would have voted for Bernie". And to "Nader!" I say, "More Dems voted for Bush than Nader". And to "You must vote Hillary for her to win!" I respond, "It is your strategy to swing right to pick up Repug votes. I have already told you that you will lose with that strategy. I am not in charge of Hillary's campaign. If you want left votes, you have to stay on the left. If you think you can win enough right-wing votes to more than make up for the left-wing votes that you will lose, that's on you".
There is only so long that the Hillbots at TOP can keep telling me that they don't want me around before I say, "OK, it's your funeral". They don't want ME, they just want my vote. If they don't understand that those go together, I can't help them.
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bing! n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
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