Sanders says will vote for Clinton in November

I am really at a loss as to what to say or think.

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kharma's picture

He can vote for whoever he wants.

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There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.. This...is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.--John Adams

It is too bad. He should live in the moment more. Clinton's election fraud is breaking faith with progressives, so he shouldn't feel beholden to keep promises to her. Unfortunately he has always given evidence of buying into lesser evil just like Warren does. To the extent lesser evil exists, Trump could be argued to be lesser evil since he is against more Syria type wars and TTIP. Anyway, if Sanders doesn't break with her I will support Jill Stein.

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NWIA's picture

But Bernie changed that. I've been voting since 1984 and had never actually respected anyone I voted for, Dem or Green. Bernie changed that, too. And while I know he had said he would support the party's nominee, and he is probably too tired by this crap to jump to the Greens, it does hurt that he is publicly supporting her. He is an exceptionally gifted politician and can deflect as well as anyone. He didn't and I am sad.

I admire the idealism of many here who somehow believe that the corrupt system that has brought a Hillary presidency to the fore will now, somehow, realize that she and the system are simply wrong about everything. It's the same idealism that Bernie has that a party platform and a speech at her convention will bring equality and justice for all.

Bernie is going full board Dem. Gross.

Jill Stein 2016.

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PriceRip's picture

Bernie is going full board Dem. Gross.

          We watched the same video but saw entirely different realities.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

That's what voting FOR someone means. He may not like her but he's just given her his personal endorsement, his vote.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Wink's picture

Don't believe everything you hear. Bernie supports the same things he has supported for fifty years and more. The same things he's been talking about for 15 months. Read the tea leaves instead. I doubt Bernie votes for anyone but himself.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

lunachickie's picture

He has not given an endorsement. He answered a question.

He didn't ask you to vote for her.

We're not going to get a fucking thing done like this.

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WindDancer13's picture

for someone like probably most US Americans will do this year and as they have done for many years past? It sounds like some people would be happy to sink the all good work he has done as long as he says,"Never Clinton." Exactly what would that accomplish?

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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.--Aristotle
If there is no struggle there is no progress.--Frederick Douglass

lunachickie's picture

and vote for HER. I'm just not seeing that coming.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

Never gonna happen if we keep voting 'em in.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Amanda Matthews's picture

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

wait until James Comey does his thing. He knows that if you are going to try to kill a Queen, you only get one shot at it. The FBI investigation is on 2 tracks--the graft of the Clinton Foundation, and her mishandling of classified documents. In each case they will find evidence of destruction or concealment of evidence, perjury, obstruction,... The FBI has already leaked that Obama will not be able to hide what they find.
The Clinton's graft & monumental hubris will eventually be their downfall. It is now a matter of timing. An early indictment might give us Bernie as POTUS; a later one, Trump as POTUS; and even if she and Obama get her elected, we will have years of impeachment proceeding.
Be patient while this plays out.

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chuck utzman

TULSI 2020

but I agree with what you're saying here. There are too many angles to read right now, too many people involved in the election fraud to keep track of, too many things coming out about Shillary. If Bernie were to go all in on election fraud and really try to bring that down, who in hell knows what they'll do? Maybe they have threatened him. And maybe he is trying to hold on to that day job in the Senate where he can at least try to still fight.

And I think you're spot on with some dirt coming out after she's elected - I almost wonder if that somehow isn't the ultimate goal here? Tarnish her further, bring the Democratic party down once and for all, and install what? I don't know, but I think there's one hell of a lot going on behind the scenes, and yes, while that pisses me off to no end, I'm not at all sure there's much we can do about it but wait. But believing anything our MSM says should also be taken with a huge grain of salt. they'll spin this thing a hundred ways before they're done, hell, they already have.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

Wink's picture

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

nonetheless ...

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

Wink's picture

deeply entrenched in '75. Nixon had nowhere near the protections HRC has, and was even less liked. If that's possible. He was allowed to swing, fall on his sword. HRC ain't going anywhere except to the White House. Not the big house.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

mimi's picture

putting my fist squarely on the mouth of those a**hole journalists.
That's all.

Bernie does what he can. Many people don't. 'nough said.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Film at eleven.

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

Lookout's picture

If not then I'm voting for Jill. I certainly support the Green Party more than the Corrupt Corporate Dems.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

Cassiodorus's picture

have leaped upon Sanders' slip of the tongue as if it were the only news about Sanders worth reporting over the whole of his fourteen-month campaign. I'm sure that most of them have in fact spent the past fourteen months studiously ignoring Sanders and his campaign. Even today they give large quantities of publicity to Donald Trump, a man with no significant campaign and a record of past behavior which can be generously described as that of a pseudo-celebrity, the Vanilla Ice of politics, in order to maintain the appearance of democracy (which is after all what he's there for) between now and November.

My announcement is an attempt to make up for all that oligarchy-produced pseudo-news. So:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

Cassiodorus promises vote for Stein

California -- 24 June 2016

Known blogger, onetime fixture at Daily Kos, and fount of wisdom "Cassiodorus" promised today that he would vote for Jill Stein in this year's Presidential election. "If any other candidates for President want my vote, they're going to have to earn it," he added.

Contact: Stenographers of Power
666 K. Street
Washington DC 20001
stenographersofpower@gmail.com

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

lunachickie's picture

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paradigmshift's picture

Voter fraud came into existence one day after voting, it is not a recent phenomenon. JFK may well have stole some votes. You cannot give up because there are cheaters. Got to fight the good fight.

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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Cassiodorus's picture

What else was I going to do?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

mouselander's picture

Bernie and any number of solid progressive types - Noam Chomsky comes to mind - have embraced the notion that the absolute worst outcome of the upcoming election would be a Trump presidency, and therefore it's necessary to vote for Hillary Clinton as the least bad of the two "viable" options. I respect that point of view, but I personally think it's wrong.

This article from today's Salon by Peter Gaffney makes what I consider to be a very strong argument as to why the lesser-evil voting strategy is an exceedingly bad idea. Jill Stein is not going to win the election, but a vote for her is an unambiguous repudiation of the status quo, and an investment in a more just, honest and ethical system of government going forward. A situation not unlike the election of 1856, in which a large swath of voters embraced the candidate of the newly minted Republican Party (John Fremont), rather than voting for the tried-and-failed policies of Democrat John Buchanan or "Know-Nothing" Millard Fillmore.

Yes, Fremont lost that round, but the thing to keep in mind is, there had to be a Fremont before there could be a Lincoln. Imagine if in 2016 Stein receives even 10 percent of the vote - now that would be an honest-to-God political earthquake that would shake the "one-party-pretending-to-be-two" duopoly to its foundations.

Sorry, Bernie, #ImWithJillNotWithShill

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inactive account

Shahryar's picture

agree that we're not voting for Hillary.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

infamous line "who else you gonna vote for?" crap.

Who else indeed. Now I really don't know. I was going to vote for the guy who is now voting for Clinton (even if it had to be a write-in vote. NOW what? I still believe in all that Sanders said before today. He was absolutely right about everything that is wrong in this country. But he experienced, first hand their nastiness, lack of ethics and integrity, the fact that there's nothing so low that Clinton and her campaign won't stoop to and they've used some of the dirtiest tricks in the world, including attempting to discredit Sanders' civil rights work by going so far as to attempt to CHANGE THE HISTORICAL RECORD. This shit was/is unheard of.

***
Photographer Says Disputed 1962 Photo Really Does Show Bernie Sanders

http://time.com/4220480/bernie-sanders-disputed-civil-rights-photo-1962/

***

This whole campaign has been as, if not more, shameful than the Republican's has. But events and episodes like that Jonathan Capehart/Washington Post smear was really beneath contempt. And remember, as in this event, there us ALWAYS a Clinton operative in the background.

I just don't understand why he had to say this. And why now?

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Shahryar's picture

they're all happy to do their part. In some cases it's outright lying, in other cases it's deliberate ignorance.

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...i finally sent back the Democratic Party survey that seemingly everyone has gotten in the mail recently. in big, bold marker i wrote:

"Bernie or Bust!!
No more status quo!
No Clinton!
No Warren VP!
No Biden!
No Trump!
We tried to change the trajectory of the Democratic Party and you handed the nomination to Clinton!"

it may not do much good but if enough people did it they maybe they would get a better idea of the number of Democrats and Democratic leaning independents that are not going to fall in line for Clinton. they're making some very wrong assumptions about my vote. i'm just clarifying it for them.

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lunachickie's picture

"over" yet. But I like your survey responses Smile

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you will vote for someone is not the same as an endorsement. Doesn't change anything for me. I'm still Bernie or bust. I will never vote for Trump. I will nevet vote for $hillary

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elenacarlena's picture

all take seriously. So IF Hill is the nominee, maybe he'll vote for her. Maybe we can still change his mind about running third party, but we're going to have to convince him he can win. He won't run as a spoiler because he won't let Trump win.

But the primary isn't over until the convention. Let's all pray that Hill's illegal doings come back to bite her hard on the rump before then, so Bern can be the nominee. He won't make any other plans until after then, I'm sure.

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Cassiodorus's picture

Mostly they're about Trump's nonseriousness as a candidate, his role as a decoy, and his job in clearing away Republican opposition so that Veruca Salt can get the Presidency she's been promised. My concerns are buttressed by facts. Here's a short summary:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2016/06/2...

Has Bernie Sanders addressed any of this just yet?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

lunachickie's picture

Veruca Salt? Yeah, I never thought about that before, but it kinda fits, don't it?

Thanks for that Biggrin

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lunachickie's picture

Sanders is not going to address the notion that The Donald is and always has been a deliberate spoiler here.

Nobody saw his popularity coming, which is his biggest problem. That and "he could win the Presidency", which would suck for him if he doesn't really want the job.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

WAPO has been spewing ugly Trump articles for a while. A dozen a day. Something terrifies them. Unless they're doing it for someone else. This one was was interesting, though:

Who does Donald Trump listen to? Other Trumps.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
paradigmshift's picture

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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Cassiodorus's picture

The WaPo is a propaganda rag, no? How do you know what they feel if they're all about addressing you as the audience they want?

I'm still waiting for a rational argument as to what impedes a Veruca Salt presidency. She's a lousy campaigner? Doesn't matter when your opponent has no campaign funds and they're all going to you. The media gives Trump free time? Have the media give her even more free time. She isn't promising anything? Make up some promises and have them thoroughly weasel-worded so they can't be called in.

Why not just crown President Salt now?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

hecate's picture

that Lolita Trump is The Hairball's premier advisor. She told The Hairball to dump Lewandowski, and so he did.

The Hairball has not at allClUzHfEUYAEGnCo.jpg kept secret his burning desire to fuck Lolita Trump. And why not? As he has repeatedly, smugly said, he simply provides the sperm for the children, and then the wives and the nannies are expected to raise them.

He doesn't regard Lolita Trump as truly and exclusively his daughter, because he was never around, when she was a child. He only came in, when she was cresting into adulthood.

Thus, she is just another hot hole to fuck. Like the country.

Knuckledraggers like the Romans and the Borgias, they commonly fucked their daughters. So why not The Hairball? Like them, he shall march on a road of bones . . . .

And, once in the White House, he'll rid himself of whatever Eastern European import he happens to be married to at the moment, and elevate Lolita Trump to First Ladyhood. Hosannas, they shall then ring out, and everywhere, and for all time.

It will be like Chinatown, except, at last, properly, publicly, consummated.

So let it be written. So let it be done.

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riverlover's picture

I just noticed that the Donald's socks match his tie. Shades of 80's. No comment about the other happy couple.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

…and Trump won't let them?

Or, are you saying that Trump is pimping his intelligent and beautiful daughter to WAPO execs?

Or, are you saying Trump first met his three children just recently and he hired them to be his campaign "Apprentices?"

Or, were you simply harkening back to the bygone years of "All the President's Penises?"

:

Damn. Now I can't remember the reason why I posted that story in the first place. I clearly spend too much time analyzing WAPO.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
hecate's picture

thought about The Hairball sharing Lolita Trump with the Post people. But no doubt he would. For the right price.

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elenacarlena's picture

running because Hill asked him to. Or maybe they didn't conspire, but when he mentioned the possibility to her, she saw the possibilities for herself so encouraged him, "Oh sure, you'd be great; no, I wouldn't mind". They used to be friends! It's not an outlandish CT in the slightest. I've been saying this openly around the Internet since Trump's candidacy seemed to take off, in hopes that fewer Repubs would vote for him. Hasn't worked so far, but if more of them have buyer's remorse that's OK with me.

However, Bern should not say things like that without proof. He needs to be taken seriously; I'm a part-time comedian so I don't have that same need. He needs to attract all possible votes, and I don't see how floating this theory would help him.

Also however, just in case Trump is a serious candidate, he has certainly been saying hateful things and stirring up racism etc. So I will at some point worry about making sure he's not elected. I am not at that point now; I'm focused on the convention, signing the petition for the FBI to finish their investigation by then, and following the lawsuits in hopes they'll be well along by then. Also following the California vote, somewhat impatiently.

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Cassiodorus's picture

is clearly for rubes. And, just for fun, let's take a look at Vijay Prashad's pessimistic take on our dilemma:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/23/hillary-clintons-third-way/

Here's the juiciest passage:

When Bill Clinton went after women on welfare, Hillary Clinton produced a book called It Takes A Village, in which she recommended that social workers do mandatory house searches of the homes of women on welfare.

Now all you nice liberals worry your little hearts out about how Donald Trump is a fascist. Don't you all look so cute?

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"The war on Gaza, backed by the West, is a demonstration that the West is willing to cross all lines. That it will discard any nuance of humanity. That it is willing to commit genocide" -- Moon of Alabama

elenacarlena's picture

There's a lot there about her "evolution" to a pragmatist.

And you're right, that passage is appalling. How racist, how classist!! The point the author makes about how welfare recipients needed to take "personal responsibility," but no matter how much damage they do the wealthy never need to take "personal responsibility" is an excellent one. I might even use that in future essays and/or vlogs - haranguing for the wealthy to take personal responsibility.

But someone pointed out, and I think this is a very valid point, that we tend to look at Hillary through a "worst case" lens while we tend to look at Trump through a "best case" lens. I think this is often true. There seem to be an awful lot of people saying, "Maybe Trump won't be that bad," because we don't know what his actions will be as a politician, because he has never been in office. But this I doubt sincerely, and I think that thinking optimistic thoughts about the Trump bully is potentially dangerous.

We know he will say anything to fire up his base, much of which acts hatefully and he encourages them. If Trump proves popular and/or Hill proves unpopular with Repubs, bringing lots of them to the polls, in all likelihood Congress will remain in Repub hands. We know Trump is tired of using his own money to get elected. Is there any doubt he will do exactly what the Republicans want, in order to advance his own ambitions? He would be a disaster, and minorities and women and the poor would be the ones hurt.

Now granted, Hill and Bill have done some damage to minorities and the poor and some women. But if she is popular, she will have a Dem Congress. When Dems are in charge, they tend to do at least a few things for average people - such as the ACA and the Lily Ledbetter Act. They can't hide behind "the Repubs made us do it," and they still want to be seen as the champion of the little person, so a few things get done. Tentatively, incrementally, but ask poor people with pre-existing conditions if their lives improved under Obama his first two years. OTOH, if Hill has a Repub Congress, then she will face the same obstructionism as Obama, and her whole "get things done" meme will face the same fate. Repubs will fight her just because she is disliked by their base.

OK. My research isn't done at this point. And I'm not too concerned about it unless and until she is the nominee. I have other work I need to do. I will remember things like the article you link to. But with Bern saying there must not be a Trump and with minorities saying there must not be a Trump, I am inclined to think that there must not be a Trump, and I expect research will show she will be incrementally better than a Trump.

Not good enough? Of course not. Then work hard to make a viable third party. I will get behind that. If you really feel she is as bad as he, what are you going to do about it? An anemic protest vote? What does that do? How about a real, determined, significant third party bid for more than 50% of the votes instead? If you'll work your rump off for someone other than those two, then fine, I'll vote third party. If the third party effort is weak, though, then I'll hold my nose (again; as usual; well, at least I had the pleasure of voting for Bern once) and vote for Hillary.

Don't make me do that. IF Bern is not the Dem nominee, work hard for a viable third party. Can we agree on that?

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Amanda Matthews's picture

I can agree that we need a Third Party. We need to get out of this bad guy/good guy election trap and actually ensure that there's a debate on the ISSUES, and not just fear mongering choice of evils like we have now and is epitomized in this damn election.

From that same article:
*
As Senator from New York and Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton pushed a belligerent foreign policy that included wars of aggression and unequivocal defence of U.S. allies (such as Israel). She oversaw the coup in Honduras and the regime-change operation in Libya— two instances, among many, which showed that her liberalism seemed identical to neo-conservatism. Little wonder that the neo-conservative writer Robert Kagan said of her: “I feel comfortable with her on foreign policy.” Little in Hillary Clinton’s record should give anyone illusions that she will govern from anywhere other than the Right. That is her temperament. The two pillars of her administration will be Wall Street and war. It is to be expected.

*

What I just copied and pasted is an absolutely accurate description of what we will get with Clinton. She's proven that by example. When you see someone do the same shit over and over and over, it should be clear that is exactly how that person is. She loves Wall Street. She loves war. She loves the 1%. And she doesn't give a fat rat's ass about us plebs. There is NOTHING in her past or present that says she is going to become an ethical, decent, caring human being in future. There is EVERYTHING in her past and present that says she will not. We don't know what Trump will do (I won't vote for that guy ever) but we DO know what Clinton will do.

She (and the horn dog she's 'married' to) have both been looking us in the eyes and lying to us since the early 90s, and they've done it at the expense of others. For example the time they basically called a woman a liar and a prostitute (Bill said she was a friend of the family that sold her 'lies for money') when the story was true all along. Bob Herbert said all that needed to be said about BOTH Clintons 15 years ago:

"The Clintons are a terminally vulgar and unethical couple who betrayed everyone who ever believed in them"

This remark really puzzles me: " When Dems are in charge, they tend to do at least a few things for average people - such as the ACA and the Lily Ledbetter Act." We're supposed to be grateful and settle for that? Shillary's true constituents use the federal government to enable them to destabilize areas they want to take over (iraq or the Ukraine for instance) and to allow Wall Street to rape the economies of half the planet and cash in. What we get, per your example, are a seriously flawed healthcare coverage package that's falling apart as we type, and this so-called big favor we were granted by the Dems passing an extension on the time we have to seek a fair paycheck? Do you know what the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009 does? It is not this big leap into equal pay like the bill's name suggests. All the act states is that the 180-day statute of limitations for filing an equal-pay lawsuit regarding pay discrimination resets with each new paycheck affected by that discriminatory action. Well BFD. That right should have always been in effect. They did us no big favors there. They didn't legislate equal pay, just gave us more time to try to fight for it in court ourselves. Whoo Hoo. It's done nothing for the big discrepancy in male to female pay so far. When do we start to see all these benefits?

I'm sick of living off the scrap heap and watching an extremely small segments of our society live very well off our labor, which they think is only worth poverty wages, while we pay the bulk of the taxes and foot the bills for their wars. That situation exists thanks to the help and support of Hillary Clinton.

Here is some EARLY exposure to the trash named Clinton. We've had to put up with these classless, greedy, corrupt opportunists for around 25 years. People knows how toxic Shills and the hubby both are. Some of them can justify it to themselves somehow. She's said that she's going to put Slick Willie in charge of the economy. Oh happy day! How much more damage can we expect? I can't imagine anyone being able to hold their nose long enough to vote for this creature or who can stand the thought of that probable pedophile back in the White House. That's what bothers me about Sanders. He knows what she's like, he's dealt with her first hand. That's what bothers me about the nose holders. This is not all new ground we're breaking here. We've been through this same scenario with these same people before.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

riverlover's picture

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Amanda Matthews's picture

got a LOT of exposure to Jefferson AIRPLANE. (Starship not so much).

That song is sooo applicable here.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

elenacarlena's picture

potentially enabling the greater evil.

Give me a viable third party, I'll vote for that instead. Heck, I'll work my rump off for it.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

***
Ex CEO of Goldman Sachs endorses Hillary says appalling that Trump won't promise to cut social programs

http://caucus99percent.com/content/ex-ceo-goldman-sachs-endorses-hillary...
***

EDIT: Just to add that I'm f*cking sick and tired of living below the poverty line. The internet is my only extravagance. So by all means let's put the trash back in the White House who enabled the Wall Street financial terrorists to screw most of the people on this planet. You must not have lost much during that crash. For people like me, old and laid off and unable to find another damn since 10-26-12 job because of my age, the conditions that we are still living under are the result of Bill Clinton's handiwork and was supported by that wretch that is running for the Oval Office today. I will live a life on the margins until I die and so will millions like me. And you think that creature is the lesser of two evils? She's as bad as he is, She's probably smarter so she's probably capable of even worse than he managed to accomplished. And she's been kissing Wall Street ass for decades. So forgive me if my idea of lesser evil isn't the bitch who, with her hubby, supported everything and everyone who brought us to the point we're at today.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Raggedy Ann's picture

That is the most eloquent and cogent argument I've ever read about those two. You nailed them.

I get asked, quite a bit, if I am going to vote for hrc. When I say no, inevitably I'm asked if I'm voting Herr Drumpf. When I say no. I'm asked why not hrc. (I need to start asking THEM why), and I launch into her hawkishness, social security, the minimum wage stuff, health care, all the usual arguments. I need to add this element. May I share your words with others I speak with?

Thanks, Amanda.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

Amanda Matthews's picture

allow this wretched, conniving creature back in any position of power over this country.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

elenacarlena's picture

VIABLE third party. What good is a mere protest vote going to do for you?

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Amanda Matthews's picture

heart attack that the Clinton creature be sent home to clutch her pearls, wonder who Bill's sleeping with, and try to be a decent abuela.

And that is NOT your original point. Not at all. From your post...

***
"But someone pointed out, and I think this is a very valid point, that we tend to look at Hillary through a "worst case" lens while we tend to look at Trump through a "best case" lens. "

*

Now granted, Hill and Bill have done some damage to minorities and the poor and some women. But if she is popular, she will have a Dem Congress. When Dems are in charge, they tend to do at least a few things for average people - such as the ACA and the Lily Ledbetter Act.

(NOTE: I proved that that second cut from your post was nothing but crap. Why no comments on that?
***
I KNOW she's not the lesser of two evils. She's the personification of the 'evil' we've been living under since since her hubby handed the keys to the White House and the government over to the 1%. She is a war whore. She is a liar. I've been watching her and the hubby since the early 90s. I know what and who she is by watching her in 'action'. That video I posted, I saw it in REAL TIME back when I was raising my kids one Sunday night when I was a young wife and mother. I say what I say because I've been watching them with disgust for 25 years now. Slick Willie was my first 'hold my nose' vote. And I've been holding it for decades, including Barack Obama. I knew about his record and his support of the Pritzkers during his FIRST run for office and I knew we were getting another fucking ringer. I refuse to do it ever again. I am sick of war. I am fed up with financial terrorists running and ruining the economy. I am sick of liars. And she's all three rolled up into an ugly pantsuit and a $25 thousand dollar Armani jacket.

You can certainly have every right to vote for whomever you want to vote for. Everyone does. But let's be honest here, shall we? You were originally promoting the Clinton woman as being of a lesser 'evil' than Trump and then gave your argument why, since Sanders is out of the race, people should now vote Clinton. I might be confused but I thought the intent of this website was opposition to Clinton. I am not saying that you shouldn't belong, that's not up to me nor do I care. I am saying that your post was a disingenuous way to say 'vote for the woman that is the antithesis of everything the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for and maybe she'll throw us some scraps' and it is exactly what we SHOULD NOT DO. That's how we keep getting right wing Third Way phonies running as Democrats as our only choice.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

I might be confused but I thought the intent of this website was opposition to Clinton.

This is a nonpartisan site, the vast majority of the members may be anti Hillary Clinton, but that is not the intention of this site, or it's official position.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

who anyone votes for I just won't sit here are read about how good the Dems are to us or how Shills will throw us a bone or two.

Thank you again.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

can't blame you for that. Oh, and I agree, it's just that the site itself doesn't take an official stance one way or another, unlike other sites.

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elenacarlena's picture

Fair Pay Act were good for average people. And I am not going to argue every point because I don't really want to argue with you because I don't want to spend time on researching this yet, hoping she'll be indicted and Bern will be the candidate and it's moot. I never said Sanders was out of the race. Yes, IF we get down to two people, Hill and Trump, right now I think Hill is the better option. I know she's bad, and I will look at the evidence in due time if I have to decide eventually to vote for one or the other. No, this is not an anti-Clinton Web site, this is an issues Web site. But I am not investigating Clinton v Trump in depth right now because I have a million things to do and I'm hoping I won't have to choose between those two. One of those things is, I have signed up to get Jill Stein on the ballot here in Kentucky. You might look into that in your own state if you like her. They're only on the ballot in 10 states right now, IIRC.

But I still think you're looking at Trump through a "best case" lens. You think he cares about you and your problems? I seriously doubt it. No matter how bad you prove her to be, you have not proven him to be better.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

what Trump will do, and I have NEVER said that he cares about us and our problems. But I know for damn well certain the other one doesn't. If that is what I claimed you would have seen links trying to prove it. But you haven't so don't try to read your own agenda into my posts. The only thing I'm sure of is you can't prove she'd be any better because it's guaranteed that she'll keep us on the destructive path her hubby set us on and has been both the Republican's and the Third Way's agenda.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

Alex Ocana's picture

I listened to last nights speech, and the one at the Latino conference and felt fired up. Ready to kick ass for socialism. But today, Sanders poisoned the seeds for me saying he is going to vote for Hillary Clinton.

My analogy as a Bolivian is: It would be like Evo Morales declaring he is going to vote for a return to corporate control of Bolivia by voting for Tutu over the other corporate white man Doria Medina because Tutu is a shade whiter. I didn't spend years in the streets to have socialism sold out to some corporate-corrupt, lying, war mongering, election- stealing evil clown and her corrupt pack of hyenas. The blood of our people is dripping from the teeth of Republicans and Democrat capitalists.

What Sanders just did is support a candidate who is destroying people's lives all over the world and sheep dogged them right into the laps of Hillary Netanyahu Pinochet Kissinger Clinton and the rest of the god damn corporate rip-off artists. I repeat, he sheep dogged us. He lead millions of young people into the dead end toxic fog of the corporate/military Democratic Party where all social movements die along with the masses who support them.

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From the Light House.

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Only connect. - E.M. Forster

lunachickie's picture

My analogy as an American is that there is nothing to compare this to in American history, ever. None of this Sanders thing has ever really happened before. So with all due respect, I think it's really difficult to try to fit it into a pigeonhole of history which doesn't really apply to it.

If you feel he's "poisoned the seeds", well, I can't stop you from thinking that. I think you're very wrong about it, but all I can do is put it out there. If you want to give up on him, understand that it accomplishes exactly nothing, other than you letting go and giving up. Not everyone intends to do that.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

The seeds have already taken root. Nothing is returning and everything has changed already.

Besides, the Black Swans of Summer have just begun to land.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
lunachickie's picture

and make us glad the seeds have at least taken root. Because that article is depressing as fuck.

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riverlover's picture

because we are Roundup-resistant.

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vtcc73's picture

We're being deceived! We've been abandoned! See! he isn't a real progressive! Look! right there - what he said! All is lost, we're all fucked.....

All of this in an essay and many comments arising from a knee jerk reaction to Bernie Sanders saying that he would vote for Hillary Clinton in the general election. A couple of sentences and the revolution is over. Are we really this fragile?

If we are then, yes, the revolution is indeed fucked. Things will get far nastier when power is actually being wrestled from TPTB instead of only being threatened by some old guy and a few million of his friends. A few of us may be faint of heart, easily distressed, or not up to the heavy lifting of political revolution but "all is lost" built out of a couple words in answer to a stupid gotcha question intended to sow the seeds of defeatism? Is that really is all it takes?

So. Lets suppose Bernie is selling out or lacks the will/guts/sense to fight back. In his words he has declared that he is not the power in this revolution, we are. Some power, huh? Please take a moment to consider that there are other possible reasons for what Bernie says and does and far more that we don't know that is happening in and through the work of his campaign staff. We've come this far with the guy, why not a bit further?

I'm truly not trying to ridicule anyone. I want anyone who sees defeat in a simple statement recorded in the media to understand that the defeat they see may only be in their fears. Whether it is a reality or not will eventually be known. Not quite yet, I think.

I would suggest considering that perhaps seeing this as a betrayal is nothing other than confirmation bias at work. Being in fact betrayed and deceived so spectacularly as in the past few months makes it really easy to see it at every turn. You want me to lay it out I will. First, take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. Give it a little time and this may lose the power given it by our fears.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

Amanda Matthews's picture

Nice speech Otter. Forgive us for daring to discuss something we feel is worth discussing. This is rather noteworthy news and it was posted as such. And then I posted MY opinion. I do NOT apologize.

I have never thought that it was my place to tell people what they can and cannot discuss. Nor would I ever "lay it out" for anyone by telling them to step away from the keyboard. Maybe people like to discuss their 'fears'. Maybe people like to discuss things that concern them about what's going on, not just the happy happy stuff from the campaign trail - like big crowds and little birds - maybe to some of us this is really worth discussing because it really does rankle and it makes us WONDER. As I damn well feel we should. What next?

You don't know what's going on either, do you? Well maybe you could discuss why this is all right with you instead of telling everyone else who disagrees to shut up and go away. Because we won't you know. Talking down to people really doesn't work.

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

vtcc73's picture

where none is offered Amanda. I haven't told you to shut up or to not discuss anything. I couldn't take that away from you if I wanted to, I don't. Please continue getting spun up over this if that is helpful. I've suggested that it is neither helpful nor an accurate assessment of the statement. You obviously disagree. I'm good with that.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

vtcc73's picture

the title of my post was condescending and inappropriate. I intended it as an attention getting device and failed miserably. It was aggressive and uncalled for to someone expressing their real concern. I'm sorry.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

Pluto's Republic's picture

…when all dignity and self-esteem has abruptly left the room, casting the harsh light of fecklessness on all the participants.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
vtcc73's picture

This is the fourth or fifth essay this week decrying the actions of Bernie as a selling out. The logical gaps and mental gymnastics supporting the claims have been astounding. So much read into so little with no credit given for a lifetime of consistent progressive action. The first couple looked like concern trolling intended to poison the well. I did my best to treat them as genuine which they probably were. One more pushed a button and I overreacted. I should have been more patient and gentle, rigorously respectful (not always my nature), but chose to try shock therapy. Wrong choice when it is family. It's hard to remember we're all on the same side for the most part. Being respectful of feelings, never right or wrong regardless of what we think about them, is never the wrong path. I reacted rather than reflected. I was wrong and the only thing to do is own up to it.

A real troll probably won't get so much slack.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

Pluto's Republic's picture

I don't have a dog in this hunt. Real revolution doesn't need a leader. But it does need a movement of independent thinkers. Americans may not have the inner resources to self-govern yet.

The fact that folks call themselves Dems…. that seems odd. Even Bernie isn't a Democrat, in that sense.

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
lunachickie's picture

except I don't think it's all about "confirmation bias", I think a certain amount of it is about "dampening spirits".

Either way, for the people who truly feel affected by this, this is the best advice I've seen here in these threads:

First, take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. Give it a little time and this may lose the power given it by our fears.

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vtcc73's picture

because there are many of us who have never seen victory or when they thought that just maybe they were beginning to win, thanks Obama, the rug gets snatched out from under us. Expecting to be deceived and betrayed is a mindset conducive to seeing it in every word or deed of those whom we expect to let us down. It even affects us with those we have reason to trust.

Take the specific topic of the essay - Bernie's statement that he will vote for HRC in November. I don't think I need to explain all of the reasons one might see that as Bernie selling out. I've read all of the comments. People have done a pretty thorough job telling all of us why it's a sell out, no? What about the other side? Are there other reasonable explanations for him saying what he said? I have a few not mentioned in the comments but I think a decent argument has already been made. Even on balance there is reason to wait and see.

I honestly don't know how Bernie has done the things he has done. I'm humbled that he has been an activist who has made a difference over his entire adult life. I don't have that kind of fortitude. I can't bang my head on something for very long with little to show in results. He's played the long game taking or creating wins as they've been possible. Now at 74, he's turned a lifetime of effort into something that we should hope will live long past his existence. The second part of that is that he understands it won't be his work that wins the day. He entrusts that to us. How the hell can't we find the heart and soul to take such a gift and run with it? I'm not going to let a few doubts and fears stop me from carrying on the message. I really want the rest of you alongside me.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

lunachickie's picture

that's very true--mostly because if you're not listening to the little debbie downers, "dampening spirits" isn't going to happen unless anybody lets it anyway.

Your comment should be a separate post, it's awesome. So true...

Even on balance there is reason to wait and see.

How the hell can't we find the heart and soul to take such a gift and run with it? I'm not going to let a few doubts and fears stop me from carrying on the message. I really want the rest of you alongside me.

Edit: commentS. More than one--great stuff!

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vtcc73's picture

I really don't know where that last paragraph came from. It is heartfelt and as honest as I know how to be.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

riverlover's picture

I still stubbornly believe that Patience is a virtue. No matter what, some of us have realized that the sea is full of icebergs and stand our watches. Bernie at the helm, or not. I hope someone else is in the pilot house or waiting their turn.

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I don't see this new Bernie persona as a betrayal but a missed opportunity. To have come so far as a trailblazer, been so successful, and then shrug your shoulders and cave to the very system that you are fighting against is dispiriting. Even more so when there's a smoking gun (electoral fraud) you can fight in court and an alternative route to, if not the presidency (third party/Greens), then at least a structure (new party apparatus) for your followers to fill in and grow with.

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Amanda Matthews's picture

"To have come so far as a trailblazer, been so successful, and then shrug your shoulders and cave to the very system that you are fighting against is dispiriting."

The only, thing I would have added is "...is dispiriting and puzzling".

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I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are. - Bill Hicks

Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. - Frank Zappa

vtcc73's picture

The narrative in many peoples' minds is that Bernie only needs to do something, something and he will be president. All will be right then. Sorry, that isn't how it works. He is powerless to change any of the indignities and injustices done to him (us?) at the hands of the DNC, the Clintons, their surrogates and supporters, and the media. He's done the things he has some chance at a measure of success like the lawsuits. Throwing a tantrum or crying in the media may be satisfying to some of his supporters but I doubt he sees is as useful. Saying that all he has to do is join Jill Stein in a third party run is arguable. It might, an wafer thin might, get him to the White House. There are opportunity costs to such a move due to the calendar and there are too many unknowns and risks to assure a win. I suspect if his focus was himself (damn the risks I want this!) he might be tempted. It is probably his last real shot after all. Not his style and it isn't what he's shown to be his character over a long career. So, I guess, I don't see a real opportunity to be missed, only an imaginary one.

Having said that, my preference is for him to go Green right now. I think instead he's being true to himself and his principles. I can respect that because he's proven to be a far better judge of things political than I ever have or ever will be.

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"Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now..."

Wink's picture

wins a three-way. He got 43% of the Primary popular vote. He doesn't need that in a three way, but is likely to get close to 40. A real chance at winning the whole enchilada. As you said, it isn't his style. He is doing what he said he would do, which, long term, is a good place to be.

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the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.

vtcc73's picture

He got 43% of the people who voted in the Democratic primaries. Hillary's and Trump's raw vote numbers are greater than his. The general election will be different. We can argue how different and by how much but in the end it is all baseless opinion. There are way too may variables to make an educated guess much less a calculated prediction. I think I'd like to see it happen until I remember that Murphy always gets a say. Unintended consequences can be a bitch. Seeing this election thrown into the House of Representatives is a horror show scenario I'm not convinced is worth the risk. Just another opinion.

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riverlover's picture

I don't belive that cat farm would even consider picking the next Prez. Instead they will throw it to the 8 (?) Supremes where all bets are off again. Brexit II?

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