Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
one comment thread today because the comments were spiraling out of control. I witnessed the issue being discussed in that thread destroy other sites so I shut it down when it became overheated. I'll gladly take the heat for closing the comments rather than have it rip this site in two.
There are some issues that act as sticks of dynamite in places like this. We don't need to light the fuses and watch them burn down. Kudos for making the tough decision, and I think the right one.
Now that I have fled TOP, I have noticed that good moderation makes all the difference. I really appreciate the civility here versus the charnel house that TOP has become.
Shutting down a thread (quietly) protects the community when self-awareness goes missing. It also protects the individuals involved.
It's the gift of a fresh start. One can find redemption in that.
It is my opinion that you are acting wisely, Johnny. You are benefitting the community and protecting individual members. That's about as good as it gets in Community Management.
You know what's not good?
It's not good to repost those threads in a "Small Closet" where certain members can go read them and titillate themselves with hate and the humiliation of others.
Just sayin'
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Populations don’t like wars. They have to be lied into it.
That means we can be “truthed” into peace. — Julian Assange
how to disagree without arguing. Isn't another name for disagreement an argument?
I know when I disagree with my family members, often it turns into an argument.
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JtC: I know you don't have a hide/flag system per se, but I would suggest you consider an option to click something like "alert moderators" (granted, a lame phrase), something like that, and the moderators and admins can decide whether to delete nasty comments or not or what action to take.
Since c99 has become an overwhelming success, obviously people are going to argue. And please don't discount when some users sign up and use a name from another website that they aren't that same person at some other site.
do not attack the messenger. When someone says something we disagree with, we have no right to judge the person. We can only judge whether or not the message SUITS US.
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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
It might be absolutely ridiculous for person a to do or think b. Doesn't mean it is ridiculous for anyone else. I personally object to people seeing dogwhistles where none are present or intended and insisting that it exists because it exists for them. Projection is only acceptable when limited by the knowledge that is what it is.
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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Cared themselves, so long as they could fund wars, profit over conflict, underwrite monarchs so long as it was profitable, and destabilize those who might impose peace and prosperity for all.
and got so rich and so arrogant that the King of France was able to bully the Pope into putting an end to them. (Lots of really ugly hate propaganda involved in that too - including "confessions" extracted under torture.)
The system has been gamed as long as there has been a system, and as long as there have been players willing to be totally cutthroat ruthless. But - there's always someone more ruthless still, and so they rise and fall on the Wheel of Fate.
noticed that a bunch of crazy cultists were not dissuaded by the persecution visited upon them by his minions and decided to adopt their religion as the official religion of the Empire. He called it the Roman Universal Church, wrecked everyone else's temples, and put up his churches on the rubble.
I think the goal matters. If we're just trying to convince someone we're right, I think we'll encounter conflict. But if we think of arguing as a means to reveal a truth or to answer a question, then we could all win those kinds of arguments.
I got more confusion than I got answers at the moment, but it would be my hope that we could challenge each other (and allow ourselves to be challenged) while remaining mindful that we've all been through a very confusing stretch and we're likely in different stages of processing things that have already happened. Some of us are not in the mood to feel pushed at the moment, but I'd still like to bounce some ideas around. Lefties can do that, right? We have in the past.
Not everybody agrees, nor should they. But as long as we treat each other with respect, and listen and respond when engaged in conversation, I think we'll be fine. Will that always happen? Not a chance. So we're fortunate to have a discreet, wise moderator to help us in those moments.
It's good seeing you here. I don't know if I ever mentioned that we ended up using your suggestions about framing when canvassing for Bernie. Worked very well.
Do you by any chance know what happened to Frameshop over at The Pie Fight Place? I was always an irregular visitor and Frameshop was one of my favorite features.
One day I returned after a hiatus and it was gone. Just curious.
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"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
I remember trying to make that argument at TOP. Though I worded it to say it's not a left-right thing as much as a top-bottom thing, and a lot of Republicans are waking up to discover they don't like being someone's bottom.
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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me
That's an even better way to put it! But yeah, to me, this campaign feels like the most effective countermeasure to hate radio that we have ever offered. OWS did the precursory work to make it possible.
can be seen as anti-semitic or racist or sexist or gender related homophobic in their argumentation. It's the curse of any online blog discussion. It got much worse when the whole line of identity political issues were used in the election and primary campaigns (probably not at all over yet, I pretty much was waiting for this to happen) to cuddle those intimate and personal emotions everybody has about those issues.
People don't want to be accused of being anti-semitic, racist or sexist. As soon as you disagree with someone, who uses these issues in an "over the top" fashion, be it on purpose to manipulate you, or be it unconsciously because of lack of self-cognizance, you get the "free speechers" holler at you, because they insist on saying what they want, and you get the other people insisting that you are a rude "whatever."
It's tiring. It drove me away from TOP and I can't stand it creeping in here. It's always disappointing and painful to watch, but I guess it is pretty much unavoidable.
I liked JtC's calm bud nipping. And the site has done quite well considering that a lot of free-roaming speech is going on all around. No need to chastice yourself. JtC has a good instinct, imo.
the/some answer(s) is a good goal, trying to WIN, not so much.
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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Is respect. I respect that in this life we all have different life experiences that lead us to different views of the world. I am not better, or smarter than someone that I disagree with I simply am viewing the world from a different place.
In this country we spend a lot of time judging and belittling people who do not agree with our every thought. Those who are different are often met with violence and hatred both in word and deed.
Part of my support for Bernie has always been that he is willing to talk with those who disagree with him and look for common ground. It is essentially a skill that is necessary in places where there are few people.
I can agree to disagree with people I can ask questions about their beliefs and I can often find that under it all I can agree they have good reasons for what usually turn out to be well thought out conclusions. That simply do not mesh with mine.
I always learn something and my view of the world changes just a bit.
I saw that thread and was very uncomfortable with where it was going.
I agree with the good doc. Not every comment you disagree on needs to be answered.
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“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
I don't want to link the thread because I suspect Jtc had a reason for not doing so, but if you go into community content and scroll down to you see one that doesn't have "Add New comment" enabled you are probably in the right spot.
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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
and got engaged and said (to myself) uh-oh. And dropped it. I just read the entire thread. Some dogs like bones. JtC did right. Hola.
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Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
In the discourse of discussions in today's society, people are taught to ignore or not listen to any other points or different viewpoints- "that shows your weak or weaken your point of view". You see if everything, if people do not agree with you then shout them down, ignore them or make fun of them. This is why I left the other place.
The reason I am here is I do not want an echo chamber, but want civic discussion and sharing of knowledge, and guess what, sometimes we are going to have to agree to disagree which is not a bad thing.
Let us be the grown ups in the room and actually think about our behaviors, actions, comments- and remember something less is more.
Our society is in a very bad place headed in a worse direction and this unbending attitude is one of the lynch pins of that. Stretch it out into the future a bit and it becomes fairly clear we are heading no where good if we don't turn it around.
As your response is likely to be interpreted in different ways. I understood the Metas to reflect your interest in keeping your website NONPARTISAN, CIVIL, and focused on IMPROVEMENT FOR THE 99%. Under these terms, I don't see support for speech which is simply intended to be insulting to someone with a different viewpoint.
Am I right? Please feel free correct me where necessary!
to think that I had stepped into a time warp, or something.
Also, I would like to emphasize that all well-reasoned views are welcome here. And that C99P does not tolerate bullying tactics or rhetoric which is employed to shut down conversations, simply because another member(s) may not agree with a particular view, or comment. Saw a tad of that earlier, today, as well.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
If I can locate the This Week transcript, I'll post a comment in today's OT with a partial transcript from Bernie's interview with George S.
Bernie was very direct in stating his intentions, going forward. It made it clear that he is not contemplating a third party run. I'll provide a link to the entire transcript.
Have a good rest-of-the-weekend, Everyone!
Mollie
"The obstacle is the path."--Zen Proverb
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Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
There has been some blue thought policing going on that verges on bullying in several threads and definitely shut down discussions. I was beginning to tack loyalty statements into comments so that I wouldn't get flayed...and I still got called a shill.
In any case, it has been an awful week and there is still a lot of shit heading our way, let's not unravel now.
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"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking
Good moderation is cool. I do worry about the possibility of being censored for the wrong reasons. It can't be easy to decide when to shut someone down. I would worry about shutting down something I shouldn't, but then, I will never volunteer to be a moderator. I get get a bit extra passionate sometimes.
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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
As I've explained before, Johnny, somehow my brain-software for detecting hints has been disabled -- a vitally necessary survival feature in my childhood.
Now, I don't *think* I was involved in an out-of-control thread, but if I was one of the bad actors, would you please send me a message about my inappropriate behavior? IF I was a bad actor, I want to take responsibility for myself.
the thread being discussed isn't the only ugliness that's popped up the last few days. What is it, the weather, the primary, something in the water? I made a decision a couple of days ago to back off a tad on the moderating to allow folks a little more room to vent their spleens during this contentious period, maybe that wasn't the best choice.
Further explanation about the closed comment thread: I monitored that thread very carefully today knowing full well the explosive potential involved. I was asked to take sides in the comments and I refrained, it's not possible to take a side on that issue without alienating lots of folks one way or the other. I allowed both sides of the issue to voice their opinions up until things became testy, at that point rather than chastise anyone for their beliefs I felt the best option was to close the comments and nip it in the bud.
No site destruction ensued, no sanctions levied, no harm, no foul, let's move on.
Probably bummed out by the California primary results, although it led to a denouement I've always expected. Maybe others are out of sorts about that too. Or maybe it is the weather. It's gotten summer hot all of a sudden here in Albuquerque.
but we need to lighten up!
Your picture features the crown/symbol of Estonia.
I was just there, and my tee shirt features the crown, says "KEEP CALM AND DRINK BEER.
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"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
simply nothing new to be said, no further understanding to be gained, and no room left for finding some sort of compromise.
In which case, what is the purpose of the discussion?
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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
I find that the way the mod handled it was best under the circumstances in the moment. However, it's clear to me that "dog whistles" are obviously in the eye of the beholder, and in the last 15 years or so, we seem to be a bit over-the-top in identifying them or acting like they trump everything else in a discussion:
no room left for finding some sort of compromise.
That is really unfortunate, because there was plenty of room for it there.
And to be clear, I get it--this statement:
When some are able to prevent everyone else from discussing an issue
does not refer to "moderation". It's not the mod's fault that he wants to do what's best for the Big Picture here and I applaud how it was done. But it pisses me off that it had to be done at all, and at the end of the day, someone got their way when I feel they really should not have. And they're sure not complaining about it.
Yeah, there was some spilt milk. I'd like to see it not happen again but I'm sure it will. Mods can't win with stuff like this, and it is galling to watch.
The diarist wasn't satisfied with making the obvious points in the diary and with the embedded video, but tried to pound the point home in the first three comments with more embedded videos. That was overkill, and started to send a very clear message that perhaps was not intended (I wish I could be sure it wasn't).
Don't do this, people. If you don't think your point is strong enough in your diary - rewrite the diary until you are satisfied with it.
While it doesn't really change my bigger point, when one seems to be "piling on" to their original screed, that is completely not helpful; if it's that germane to your point, it should go in the body of the post. Stuff like that has a tendency to just get things off on the wrong foot in general. Now, it's one thing to be angered by that--and I get that kind of anger--but it is truly another thing, IMO, to assume anything, particularly when we ourselves--in the end--aren't completely sure about it. That should apply to all of us, on any subject, and I certainly hope it does going forward.
comment in your diary without self censorship tells the story. I know what I would do if it was my blog. I would take a side because that's what having a political/activist blog should be about.
I smile, but I'm also serious. One can't be impartial--as admins must be, particularly in this kind of forum--and "take sides". If you do, you're going to piss somebody off. The minute you do that, your "admin" cred takes a bit hit.
People "self-censor" every day. There's a difference between 'censorship' and what's going on here.
Then fled back to that pool of cess. We just have to anticipate that we will be infiltrated, attacked, and pushed to do some nasty things.
I am reminded of how the FBI infiltrated a group of Quakers who were agin Baby W's invasion of IraqNam, and held ever larger meetings on how to stop it. Two FeeBeeErs actually tried to sell them on the idea of bombing some power, industry or govt. instillation locally.
That's as smart as seeking Vegan supporters at Billy Bob's BBQ and Country Fried Steakhouse.
I do not expect the latest infiltration methods to be so ham-handed. For one thing, AI has gotten really, REALLY good quite recently.
I do have on suggestion. Let us say that some spammers or a-holes invade, and we have to stop for a bit. We need some emergency location to meet, discuss, and organize.
for the Oakland "Stop The Draft Week" way back when some of their provocateurs tried to push the idea of blowing up the bathrooms in the UC Berkeley ROTC buildings. They are always finding plots because they are always creating them - absolutely useless losers.
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That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
then it is time for us to take a deep breath and let those left tabs expand.
It has been stated elsewhere. I would like to state it in my own words.
I am on this planet in this life for the effort.
The effort is my effort against my failings and ignorance, my prejudice, my racism, my sexism, my poor judgment, my bad temper, my shadow, my fault.
That effort extends to my consciousness of the persons and other beings around me.
Not a struggle, which sounds like a strangulation cuddle, and not a fight, which is but more violence.
This is and will be forever the effort.
I fail each day. I am glad that there are those who do not fail as I do, whose efforts close the gaps. I am here to overcome failure through the law of large numbers. The redemption of the human group is this error-correction, to be corrected, to be taught, to be expanded.
Perhaps there are times when I cross the gap, and avoid transmitting the error, too.
the catalyst for 'check yourselves' was, but I have complete trust that whatever it was, was deserving of your moderation. Your standards are impeccable and they warrant everyone's respect.
Since the title of this thread is "Moderation" I have a couple questions.
First) On slow going, long term topics such as Climate Change, Palestine and many more I find it annoying to have to start a new essay when a new piece of news directly related to a previous essay comes down the pipe. If posted to the old essay, the essay stays hidden as old news and nobody sees the update except for a few moments on "recent" posts.
Having never been moderator of a forum, I don't know how to solve that problem, except to link to older essays. There should, perhaps, be topic dedicated essays that go like Climate Change 1, after a hundred comments, Climate Change 2... and so on.
2) Which brings me to groups. I would also like to see topical groups dedicated to Climate Change, Peace Activists, Election Fraud and so on ... I see two groups but don't have a clue how to form and propagate a group.
Comments
Check. I read and understand. n/t
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Thank you
I'm seeing arguments that look unfamiliar at this site.
We can disagree without arguing. Not every statement we don't share needs to be answered.
Please help support caucus99percent!
I disabled...
one comment thread today because the comments were spiraling out of control. I witnessed the issue being discussed in that thread destroy other sites so I shut it down when it became overheated. I'll gladly take the heat for closing the comments rather than have it rip this site in two.
Thanks Doc.
Good call
There are some issues that act as sticks of dynamite in places like this. We don't need to light the fuses and watch them burn down. Kudos for making the tough decision, and I think the right one.
Please help support caucus99percent!
Thanks for Moderating
Now that I have fled TOP, I have noticed that good moderation makes all the difference. I really appreciate the civility here versus the charnel house that TOP has become.
These things happen in communities.
Shutting down a thread (quietly) protects the community when self-awareness goes missing. It also protects the individuals involved.
It's the gift of a fresh start. One can find redemption in that.
It is my opinion that you are acting wisely, Johnny. You are benefitting the community and protecting individual members. That's about as good as it gets in Community Management.
You know what's not good?
It's not good to repost those threads in a "Small Closet" where certain members can go read them and titillate themselves with hate and the humiliation of others.
Just sayin'
Populations don’t like wars. They have to be lied into it.
That means we can be “truthed” into peace. — Julian Assange
Ah, great idea: Close comments.
Thank you for shutting it down
As someone who contributed to the heat, I think it was a wise move.
Hope people remember "Don't go there, Dorothy!" and the story behind it, though. (I was watching that event - ouch!!!!!)
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I missed what this is about, but just curious
how to disagree without arguing. Isn't another name for disagreement an argument?
I know when I disagree with my family members, often it turns into an argument.
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JtC: I know you don't have a hide/flag system per se, but I would suggest you consider an option to click something like "alert moderators" (granted, a lame phrase), something like that, and the moderators and admins can decide whether to delete nasty comments or not or what action to take.
Since c99 has become an overwhelming success, obviously people are going to argue. And please don't discount when some users sign up and use a name from another website that they aren't that same person at some other site.
I've always drawn the line between a discussion and an argument
At the point where the parties stop listening to each other. It's usually not that hard to identify.
Please help support caucus99percent!
I hear you about not listening, but we listen, and then
we disagree and argue. It's not nasty or personal, but an argument and disagreement means the same thing to me.
Arguments are one thing...
and I pretty much let folks go at it until the insults fly, but arguments that have the potential to blow up a site are a different story.
Understood and agreed.
Good move closing off the comments.
Good instincts you have.
If Yoda didn't say that, he should have!
"All Life is Problem Solving" - Karl Popper
My mental image is of JtC as a young James Tiberius Ckirk. n/t
Don't get personal. Stay focused on the message,
do not attack the messenger. When someone says something we disagree with, we have no right to judge the person. We can only judge whether or not the message SUITS US.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I think one disagrees,
then presents the argument for one's position.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Absolutely, but we can only speak for ourselves.
It might be absolutely ridiculous for person a to do or think b. Doesn't mean it is ridiculous for anyone else. I personally object to people seeing dogwhistles where none are present or intended and insisting that it exists because it exists for them. Projection is only acceptable when limited by the knowledge that is what it is.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
I had no idea
the de Rothchilds were Jewish.
I stayed out of that discussion.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
I do t think that they, over several centuries,
Cared themselves, so long as they could fund wars, profit over conflict, underwrite monarchs so long as it was profitable, and destabilize those who might impose peace and prosperity for all.
The Templars got there first and worst,
and got so rich and so arrogant that the King of France was able to bully the Pope into putting an end to them. (Lots of really ugly hate propaganda involved in that too - including "confessions" extracted under torture.)
The system has been gamed as long as there has been a system, and as long as there have been players willing to be totally cutthroat ruthless. But - there's always someone more ruthless still, and so they rise and fall on the Wheel of Fate.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
It all went wrong when Roman Emporer Constantine
noticed that a bunch of crazy cultists were not dissuaded by the persecution visited upon them by his minions and decided to adopt their religion as the official religion of the Empire. He called it the Roman Universal Church, wrecked everyone else's temples, and put up his churches on the rubble.
Sheesh, my iPad started taking dictation and put it in my post.
That was odd.
Watched the 2013 movie “Her” on DVD last night. Odd indeed… n/t
the thing is,
dog whistling might have been imputed to me when it was not possible. Until I read it, I didn't know.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Down Styphon! ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Kalvan_of_Otherwhen
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
The Rothschild didn't know they were Jews either (smirk)
Orwell was an optimist
The "Moderators" link...
in the left sidebar has instructions on how to contact admins and mods.
...how to disagree without
I think the goal matters. If we're just trying to convince someone we're right, I think we'll encounter conflict. But if we think of arguing as a means to reveal a truth or to answer a question, then we could all win those kinds of arguments.
I got more confusion than I got answers at the moment, but it would be my hope that we could challenge each other (and allow ourselves to be challenged) while remaining mindful that we've all been through a very confusing stretch and we're likely in different stages of processing things that have already happened. Some of us are not in the mood to feel pushed at the moment, but I'd still like to bounce some ideas around. Lefties can do that, right? We have in the past.
Strong discussions are a strength of this site
Not everybody agrees, nor should they. But as long as we treat each other with respect, and listen and respond when engaged in conversation, I think we'll be fine. Will that always happen? Not a chance. So we're fortunate to have a discreet, wise moderator to help us in those moments.
Please help support caucus99percent!
It's good seeing you here. I
It's good seeing you here. I don't know if I ever mentioned that we ended up using your suggestions about framing when canvassing for Bernie. Worked very well.
Really? I'm delighted to hear it
Would love to hear from you sometime what worked in particular. In an appropriate venue, anyway.
Please help support caucus99percent!
Frameshop
Do you by any chance know what happened to Frameshop over at The Pie Fight Place? I was always an irregular visitor and Frameshop was one of my favorite features.
One day I returned after a hiatus and it was gone. Just curious.
"They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war." Howard Zinn
Up vs down instead of left vs
Up vs down instead of left vs right worked very well in low income white neighborhoods.
Wow!
I remember trying to make that argument at TOP. Though I worded it to say it's not a left-right thing as much as a top-bottom thing, and a lot of Republicans are waking up to discover they don't like being someone's bottom.
"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me
LOL!
That's an even better way to put it! But yeah, to me, this campaign feels like the most effective countermeasure to hate radio that we have ever offered. OWS did the precursory work to make it possible.
Hey doc
To me, the MOST important thing is respecting the right of others to disagree.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
the problem arises only, when the disagreements
can be seen as anti-semitic or racist or sexist or gender related homophobic in their argumentation. It's the curse of any online blog discussion. It got much worse when the whole line of identity political issues were used in the election and primary campaigns (probably not at all over yet, I pretty much was waiting for this to happen) to cuddle those intimate and personal emotions everybody has about those issues.
People don't want to be accused of being anti-semitic, racist or sexist. As soon as you disagree with someone, who uses these issues in an "over the top" fashion, be it on purpose to manipulate you, or be it unconsciously because of lack of self-cognizance, you get the "free speechers" holler at you, because they insist on saying what they want, and you get the other people insisting that you are a rude "whatever."
It's tiring. It drove me away from TOP and I can't stand it creeping in here. It's always disappointing and painful to watch, but I guess it is pretty much unavoidable.
I liked JtC's calm bud nipping. And the site has done quite well considering that a lot of free-roaming speech is going on all around. No need to chastice yourself. JtC has a good instinct, imo.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Bingo: Trying to solve & resolve, undersand and find
the/some answer(s) is a good goal, trying to WIN, not so much.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
How to successfully disagree
DONT MAKE IT PERSONAL
(Smile)
Orwell was an optimist
What works for me
Is respect. I respect that in this life we all have different life experiences that lead us to different views of the world. I am not better, or smarter than someone that I disagree with I simply am viewing the world from a different place.
In this country we spend a lot of time judging and belittling people who do not agree with our every thought. Those who are different are often met with violence and hatred both in word and deed.
Part of my support for Bernie has always been that he is willing to talk with those who disagree with him and look for common ground. It is essentially a skill that is necessary in places where there are few people.
I can agree to disagree with people I can ask questions about their beliefs and I can often find that under it all I can agree they have good reasons for what usually turn out to be well thought out conclusions. That simply do not mesh with mine.
I always learn something and my view of the world changes just a bit.
"Not every statement we don't share needs to be answered"
That's so true. I think "do I really care if they know I disagree with this?" and then I move on. Silence is golden.
To thine own self be true.
I Am 100% with you and DD on this EOM
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Thanks JtC
I saw that thread and was very uncomfortable with where it was going.
I agree with the good doc. Not every comment you disagree on needs to be answered.
“When out of fear you twist the lesser evil into the lie that it is something good, you eventually rob people of the capacity to distinguish between good and evil.”
~ Hannah Arendt
What thread?
Serious question.
in order to not make a big deal out of it
I don't want to link the thread because I suspect Jtc had a reason for not doing so, but if you go into community content and scroll down to you see one that doesn't have "Add New comment" enabled you are probably in the right spot.
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Thank you. I found it and got dirty reading through it,
and I know JtC did the best thing by shutting off the comments. I'm very impressed at his moderation technique.
Shirley, I weighed in early on
and got engaged and said (to myself) uh-oh. And dropped it. I just read the entire thread. Some dogs like bones. JtC did right. Hola.
Hey! my dear friends or soon-to-be's, JtC could use the donations to keep this site functioning for those of us who can still see the life preserver or flotsam in the water.
Thanks
was wondering.
Moderation-?
What is this word you speak of?
In the discourse of discussions in today's society, people are taught to ignore or not listen to any other points or different viewpoints- "that shows your weak or weaken your point of view". You see if everything, if people do not agree with you then shout them down, ignore them or make fun of them. This is why I left the other place.
The reason I am here is I do not want an echo chamber, but want civic discussion and sharing of knowledge, and guess what, sometimes we are going to have to agree to disagree which is not a bad thing.
Let us be the grown ups in the room and actually think about our behaviors, actions, comments- and remember something less is more.
So agree
Our society is in a very bad place headed in a worse direction and this unbending attitude is one of the lynch pins of that. Stretch it out into the future a bit and it becomes fairly clear we are heading no where good if we don't turn it around.
thanks, when the zoo has its little problems
and when humor fails, it's time to check who has your back.
https://www.euronews.com/live
You might need to be more specific, JtC,
As your response is likely to be interpreted in different ways. I understood the Metas to reflect your interest in keeping your website NONPARTISAN, CIVIL, and focused on IMPROVEMENT FOR THE 99%. Under these terms, I don't see support for speech which is simply intended to be insulting to someone with a different viewpoint.
Am I right? Please feel free correct me where necessary!
"All Life is Problem Solving" - Karl Popper
Thank you, JtC! Whew! I was beginning
to think that I had stepped into a time warp, or something.
Also, I would like to emphasize that all well-reasoned views are welcome here. And that C99P does not tolerate bullying tactics or rhetoric which is employed to shut down conversations, simply because another member(s) may not agree with a particular view, or comment. Saw a tad of that earlier, today, as well.
If I can locate the This Week transcript, I'll post a comment in today's OT with a partial transcript from Bernie's interview with George S.
Bernie was very direct in stating his intentions, going forward. It made it clear that he is not contemplating a third party run. I'll provide a link to the entire transcript.
Have a good rest-of-the-weekend, Everyone!
Mollie
"The obstacle is the path."--Zen Proverb
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
Yes. It isn't just that discussion and that essay IMO
There has been some blue thought policing going on that verges on bullying in several threads and definitely shut down discussions. I was beginning to tack loyalty statements into comments so that I wouldn't get flayed...and I still got called a shill.
In any case, it has been an awful week and there is still a lot of shit heading our way, let's not unravel now.
"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking
NEW: http://www.twitter.com/trueblueinwdc
I'm thinking I am
very glad I missed it.
Good moderation is cool. I do worry about the possibility of being censored for the wrong reasons. It can't be easy to decide when to shut someone down. I would worry about shutting down something I shouldn't, but then, I will never volunteer to be a moderator. I get get a bit extra passionate sometimes.
'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "
I saw a mention about a thread having gone out of control --
but as far as I know, I missed that post.
As I've explained before, Johnny, somehow my brain-software for detecting hints has been disabled -- a vitally necessary survival feature in my childhood.
Now, I don't *think* I was involved in an out-of-control thread, but if I was one of the bad actors, would you please send me a message about my inappropriate behavior? IF I was a bad actor, I want to take responsibility for myself.
Thanks!
Best CW
I'll also add...
the thread being discussed isn't the only ugliness that's popped up the last few days. What is it, the weather, the primary, something in the water? I made a decision a couple of days ago to back off a tad on the moderating to allow folks a little more room to vent their spleens during this contentious period, maybe that wasn't the best choice.
Further explanation about the closed comment thread: I monitored that thread very carefully today knowing full well the explosive potential involved. I was asked to take sides in the comments and I refrained, it's not possible to take a side on that issue without alienating lots of folks one way or the other. I allowed both sides of the issue to voice their opinions up until things became testy, at that point rather than chastise anyone for their beliefs I felt the best option was to close the comments and nip it in the bud.
No site destruction ensued, no sanctions levied, no harm, no foul, let's move on.
Hear, hear! ;-D EOM
Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.
I read less last week, so I must have missed it
Probably bummed out by the California primary results, although it led to a denouement I've always expected. Maybe others are out of sorts about that too. Or maybe it is the weather. It's gotten summer hot all of a sudden here in Albuquerque.
Thanks again for your adult supervision.
Please help support caucus99percent!
Johnny is an excellent bud nipper, he nipped me once, and
I never forgot it.
And "die moral von der geschicht" is this:
Alles ist gut.
https://www.euronews.com/live
This is decidedly off topic, Mimi,
but we need to lighten up!
Your picture features the crown/symbol of Estonia.
I was just there, and my tee shirt features the crown, says "KEEP CALM AND DRINK BEER.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
oh my, my apologies to Estonia, ... sigh
I wished at least once I wouldn't make pile of pooh. No luck. I always dump the wrong stuff at the wrong place. It's awful to be me
you want me to redact it?
https://www.euronews.com/live
It's hilarious! Leave it up!
Estonians keep calm! They are an example we should follow.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
well, if i had any part in that I'm apologizing here publically
Fwiw
Don't believe everything you think.
I'm offline for a few days
And look what happens
"We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
Very unfortunate.
When an issue can't be discussed. You're right, this site has turned.
Doesn't seem so to me.
(sniffs the milk)
No, I see where somebody spilled some, but not turned.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well, we disagree.
When some are able to prevent everyone else from discussing an issue, that's a right turn that can't be straightened.
Perhaps there are some issues about which there is
simply nothing new to be said, no further understanding to be gained, and no room left for finding some sort of compromise.
In which case, what is the purpose of the discussion?
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
At the end of the day
it was stopped.
I find that the way the mod handled it was best under the circumstances in the moment. However, it's clear to me that "dog whistles" are obviously in the eye of the beholder, and in the last 15 years or so, we seem to be a bit over-the-top in identifying them or acting like they trump everything else in a discussion:
That is really unfortunate, because there was plenty of room for it there.
And to be clear, I get it--this statement:
does not refer to "moderation". It's not the mod's fault that he wants to do what's best for the Big Picture here and I applaud how it was done. But it pisses me off that it had to be done at all, and at the end of the day, someone got their way when I feel they really should not have. And they're sure not complaining about it.
Yeah, there was some spilt milk. I'd like to see it not happen again but I'm sure it will. Mods can't win with stuff like this, and it is galling to watch.
It was an object lesson in how *not* to start a discussion
The diarist wasn't satisfied with making the obvious points in the diary and with the embedded video, but tried to pound the point home in the first three comments with more embedded videos. That was overkill, and started to send a very clear message that perhaps was not intended (I wish I could be sure it wasn't).
Don't do this, people. If you don't think your point is strong enough in your diary - rewrite the diary until you are satisfied with it.
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
Or the person trying to rebut
Could write their own diary.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.
That is also a very good point n/t
I can agree with that, too
While it doesn't really change my bigger point, when one seems to be "piling on" to their original screed, that is completely not helpful; if it's that germane to your point, it should go in the body of the post. Stuff like that has a tendency to just get things off on the wrong foot in general. Now, it's one thing to be angered by that--and I get that kind of anger--but it is truly another thing, IMO, to assume anything, particularly when we ourselves--in the end--aren't completely sure about it. That should apply to all of us, on any subject, and I certainly hope it does going forward.
See my new diary. About to publish it.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
The fact that I can't
comment in your diary without self censorship tells the story. I know what I would do if it was my blog. I would take a side because that's what having a political/activist blog should be about.
That is no doubt
why you're not running a political blog
I smile, but I'm also serious. One can't be impartial--as admins must be, particularly in this kind of forum--and "take sides". If you do, you're going to piss somebody off. The minute you do that, your "admin" cred takes a bit hit.
People "self-censor" every day. There's a difference between 'censorship' and what's going on here.
Hey, Big Al, this 2008 post from Arthur Silber reminded me of
your suggestion that the way to protest the rigged system is for everyone to boycott it completely and just not take part any more.
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.de/2008/02/tale-that-might-be-told.html
So glad you mentioned Silber
I've been reading him long time. I cry a lot when I read him but am always stronger for doing so. I love the guy.
Thanks for that lotlizard
I like it.
Great Silber article, lotlizard.
Thanks for reminding me of it.
Seems we've reached the
election Silber foresaw. He always
has seemed to be ahead of the
times.
Only connect. - E.M. Forster
Glad I missed it...
Sorry folks got upset. Moderators in all things?
Thanks for the cleansing JtC.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Thank you! n/t
"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change." Stephen Hawking
NEW: http://www.twitter.com/trueblueinwdc
There was a wave of GOS folk who appeared briefly,
Then fled back to that pool of cess. We just have to anticipate that we will be infiltrated, attacked, and pushed to do some nasty things.
I am reminded of how the FBI infiltrated a group of Quakers who were agin Baby W's invasion of IraqNam, and held ever larger meetings on how to stop it. Two FeeBeeErs actually tried to sell them on the idea of bombing some power, industry or govt. instillation locally.
That's as smart as seeking Vegan supporters at Billy Bob's BBQ and Country Fried Steakhouse.
I do not expect the latest infiltration methods to be so ham-handed. For one thing, AI has gotten really, REALLY good quite recently.
I do have on suggestion. Let us say that some spammers or a-holes invade, and we have to stop for a bit. We need some emergency location to meet, discuss, and organize.
They've been pulling that shit forever. In a planning session
for the Oakland "Stop The Draft Week" way back when some of their provocateurs tried to push the idea of blowing up the bathrooms in the UC Berkeley ROTC buildings. They are always finding plots because they are always creating them - absolutely useless losers.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
All in
I get angry sometimes and my hatred comes out. Anyone here: please call me on it when I'm out of line.
I can dig it.
When the comments are squeezed into the right margin
then it is time for us to take a deep breath and let those left tabs expand.
It has been stated elsewhere. I would like to state it in my own words.
I am on this planet in this life for the effort.
The effort is my effort against my failings and ignorance, my prejudice, my racism, my sexism, my poor judgment, my bad temper, my shadow, my fault.
That effort extends to my consciousness of the persons and other beings around me.
Not a struggle, which sounds like a strangulation cuddle, and not a fight, which is but more violence.
This is and will be forever the effort.
I fail each day. I am glad that there are those who do not fail as I do, whose efforts close the gaps. I am here to overcome failure through the law of large numbers. The redemption of the human group is this error-correction, to be corrected, to be taught, to be expanded.
Perhaps there are times when I cross the gap, and avoid transmitting the error, too.
Peace and love be with you, reader.
I don't know what
the catalyst for 'check yourselves' was, but I have complete trust that whatever it was, was deserving of your moderation. Your standards are impeccable and they warrant everyone's respect.
Two moderator questions.
Since the title of this thread is "Moderation" I have a couple questions.
First) On slow going, long term topics such as Climate Change, Palestine and many more I find it annoying to have to start a new essay when a new piece of news directly related to a previous essay comes down the pipe. If posted to the old essay, the essay stays hidden as old news and nobody sees the update except for a few moments on "recent" posts.
Having never been moderator of a forum, I don't know how to solve that problem, except to link to older essays. There should, perhaps, be topic dedicated essays that go like Climate Change 1, after a hundred comments, Climate Change 2... and so on.
2) Which brings me to groups. I would also like to see topical groups dedicated to Climate Change, Peace Activists, Election Fraud and so on ... I see two groups but don't have a clue how to form and propagate a group.
From the Light House.