Enough with the proclamations and ultimatums
We need a new 3rd party, Bernie needs to run Indie, Warren betrayed me, Bernie is going to betray me if he endorses Hillary.
Guess what? It aint about you, it aint about your emotional reactions to what needs to be a business decision.
I organized and entire NY county for Bernie, Hillary's home of Westchester NY. 11 months of working my day job and volunteering for Bernie for a total of 80 to 90 hours per week. I did unprecedented things like creating my own statewide voter database with phone numbers for about 56% of Dems, and shared it with any organizer who asked. I made an online crowdfund and bought 10,000 pieces of Westchester 4 Bernie lit, months before campaign staff stepped in state.
Remember when the DNC shut out the Sanders campaign from its own voter database (VAN). Well I had call lists for NY on google drive ready to go. When paid staff stepped in state they were blown the fuck away with the level of skills, training and infrastructure already in place.
There may have been no other Bernie group in the nation that accomplished as much prior to the first in state hire. Westchester 4 Bernie was #1 in NY state for door knocks in suburban field, #3 statewide if you count urban areas like NYC. That in itself is a stunning accomplishment, because urban areas have a much denser population than suburban areas.
How did I know to do these things? This was my 14th campaign since 2004. I know how to create and wield political power.
Its not about me, its about what 400 volunteers did by attending and hosting phone banks and canvasses. Its about a core group of 30 people who always operated by consensus, without ever saying we need to operate by consensus. 4 of whom just got back from a Camp Wellstone political campaign training last weekend and are all on board with brandnewcongress.org
Its about Veronica, never volunteered for a campaign, attended her first phone bank in November. Organized 6 events with Spanish speaking volunteers to do voter reg and canvassing of Latino communities, all the while being a canvass Captain of Mamaroneck, cutting turf...walk lists from the VAN database for canvass hosts in her town. 3 weeks out from April 19th Mamaroneck had 10 canvasses in a one week span. Veronica attended the June 3-5th Camp Wellstone political training in Albany and now plans to run for Mayor of Mamaroneck NY.
Its about Henry from Yonkers NY. A self described lone wolf. Henry was our Yonkers Canvass Captain, he created 6 canvass events in 6 days in Yonkers, each event in a different part of the city. From all those attendees he recruited enough people to host canvasses, the next week they had 6 canvass events hosted by all new recruits in Yonkers. SO henry moved into another town and did the same thing. All the while driving into the Sanders HQ in NYC to pick up lit and swag for the canvassers, and delivering these materials to all the different towns in Westchester, 2 to 3 times a week.
Henry hosted a canvass in Chappaqua NY. Yup Hillary's home town, he launched 37 canvassers at 10am the Saturday before the primary and was interviewed by the press. At the and of the day 60 canvassers had volunteered to go door to door. Henry plans on running for office.
Harry is 14 years old, and canvassed, made phone calls, and hosted phone banks, training first timers on the Bernie Dialer.
Dylan is 16 years old and got permission to travel with us to Connecticut to canvass the weekend before the CT primary and canvassed the weekend of the 4th and 5th in NJ with us and 29 people from NY CT and MA.
Nick is 14 years old, he attended some of my first events handing out flyers at train stations . He attended my first phone bank, we were using printed out call lists, before the Bernie Dialer or the openVPB system was online. Nick canvassed in NY CT and NJ.
Murray Beaver is 87 years old, he ran the volunteer sign up desk at my first Barnstorm event, 96 people attended he got 94 signups. Murray hosted canvasses and trained first timers on how to have that conversation when talking to a voter. Murray also walked his neighborhood and knocked on 100's of doors.
These are the people that created and wielded political power......
#NotMeUS
Yes, Bernie showed many first timers the path. But the people I mentioned above are no longer first timers. To a person, they all say they had the time of their lives. They are the revolution embodied and empowered. Once you have felt the impact of talking to a voter about Bernie and swaying them to vote and or volunteer, you become empowered. Once empowered, you can never go back.
I can also tell you this, not one of these people will stand down.
Comments
Amen!
I'm all for people doing what they feel they have to do; conversely, people shouldn't go around telling other people what they have to do. That's what they do at TOP, and that's why I'm here...
I want my two dollars!
Thanks for all your work
It will be interesting to see Bernie's approach. I think he has a plan. I'm with him until I can't be, and if Jill is on our ballot I'll support her. The idea that people will line up with $hillary because we should be scared of T-rump is mistaken I believe.
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Not really about my work
Thats why I mentioned 6 people who were the revolution.
Thats why I told a little story about each person.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
We all do whatever we're best at
just because people have a forum and they complain about shit doesn't mean they can't ALSO be participating.
This:
really leaves no room for discussion at all, and that's not fair. This is a BLOG. Blogs are for talking about stuff.
And not one fucking bit of it mattered
because you didn't get involved in stopping electronic voting machine companies from stealing the election. Not one fucking thing you did mattered because you didn't get Bernie's legal staff to go for the throat and start vigorously filing election fraud lawsuits against the DNC.
Not one fucking bit of it mattered because we don't have democracy in America and we never will again if we don't take it back.
Don't hate me, I'm just the messenger, but you might as well have stood in a corner and twiddled yourself while sucking your thumb for all the REAL difference you made. Oh sure, everyone got all worked up, you guys made a great run. Hell, you actually WON the election. But whatever. You don't count the votes. Stalin does.
It doesn't matter unless we continue the movement
and make it matter. But Roger and I may have very different ideas of what that would look like.
Still, despite some disagreements with him, I appreciate his unwillingness to despair.
There *is* a middle ground between despair and lies, after all.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Agreed, and we are gonna need people with his knowledge
and skill set as we take this to the next stage in 2018 getting our new party on the ballots and providing guidance to those of us that may decide to step forward and run for public office.
Something that I laughed off back in my days as an AFSCME regional vp/organizer/shop steward when I was asked if I would consider running for a state level office. My thought was, "Who the hell would vote for me?" despite their continued insistence that I would make a good candidate.
I am not sure if they were right then and I am still leaning towards the thought that they were wrong. Maybe not wrong because I wouldn't have made a good candidate but because I didn't believe it was possible.
That is one thing Bernie changed in me. Now I am starting to think that maybe I should. I am more knowledgeable about the issues than I was then and have had much more time to hone my public speaking and debate techniques both via LEAP and as an activist for several of the Medical Cannabis groups here in Florida.
I don't know, it's something I still need to give a lot of thought to, but more and more I am thinking, "Hey, if those asshats can get elected, why the heck not..."
The voters of Florida sure seem ready for a new alternative as far as parties go.
The one thing I am certain of is that if I ever do take that plunge it won't be as a Democratic candidate. There are some swamps too fetid to muck around in....
"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me
Thats it "unwillingness to despair"
Bernies campaign is the most amazing thing that's happened to me, since my parents took me to see RFK in a college gym in upstate NY in Oct 1967, where he told us all we would do amazing things.
I told Millennial Berniecrats that story, and they told me "We grew up with Occupy, and have been waiting to vote since then".
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
That is arrogant in the extreme.
To say "not one fucking bit of it mattered". You mean, we didn't win the state of New York?
Of course it mattered. It matters that people understand now how to organize.
We may end up organizing to change the rules of the Democratic party (that's where I am - yes, you might hate me for being a moderate_)
We may end up organizing a third party, or registering voters of all affiliations - that's what I plan to do, and yes, I will work my neighborhood as a Precinct Captain of the Democratic party. Don't like it? Too f ing bad. Get away from your computer, talk with real people, and see what real life organizing is like.
Peace.
In 2016 it didn't matter. In the NY primary it didn't matter.
But come back after Philadelphia and tell me if it mattered.
And come back in 5 years or 10 years when someone else tries to primary Hillary or depose Trump or replace the Democrats with the Honesty Party. In 10 years 10 or 15% of Hillary and Trump's supporters will have died and the age demographic that supported Bernie 70 - 30 will go from the demographic that votes the least to the demographic that will dominate elections by their sheer numbers.
On to Biden since 1973
In the NY Primary it sure as hell mattered
1) We bettered Zephyr Teachout by 5%
2) we touched over 45,000 peoples lives because a died in the wool member of the political revolution knocked on their door or called their cell phone and talked with conviction, authenticity and passion about the issues they face everyday.
Gil Scott Heron was right, the revolution will be no rerun brothers, the revolution will be live.
We will not stand down.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
You're willfully blind in the extreme
It didn't matter because we DID win New York and the votes were suppressed, not counted and fraudulently changed.
Take all that energy and "empowerment" - an illusion that you're doing something when as long is this is true, then every bit of the illusionary "power" you feel is actually being stolen from you by Sequoia Pacific nee Dominion Voting Systems - take it all and start applying it to bringing the fraudsters to justice, one way or another.
And don't say 10 years from now will matter. Not when we watched our democracy stolen 16 years ago and what did Kerry do? NOTHING. Bupkis. Nada. He just smiled and said thank you sir can I have another.
What is Bernie's legal team doing? What are YOU prepared to do?
You've had 16 years to face up to the reality of election fraud. You've had over a DECADE to face up to the reality of electronic voting systems.
You aren't empowered. You aren't making a difference. Not until you bring down the Sequoia's of the world. Even if you have to do it the hard way. Like your forefathers. Take all this energy you sunk into getting Bernie elected AND GET BERNIE ELECTED!!! By exposing and bringing down the enemy.
Identify the enemy and take them down. One way, or another.
Lawsuits are already being filed.
May not help by Nov 2016, but it's a start.
Lawsuits are already being filed.
May not help by Nov 2016, but it's a start.
Oops, sorry, double posted.
Bernie volunteers touched
tens of thousands of lives in Westchester county NY.
That right there was worth the price of admission.
First time volunteers were the campaign, they were interviewed on the cable news and the regional paper.
The impact on peoples lives was YUGE !!!!!!
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
We need it to keep going
and IMO, we cab get there successfully--or at least in one piece--if we ALL try really hard to not assert ourselves so forcefully that our valid points can be taken out of context.
That goes for me as well as anybody else, it is a general remark, please don't ascribe it as being solely about you simply by dint of the fact that I'm replying to your comment. And thank you for all that you are doing. You are far from alone.
I strongly object to your entire comment, Scott Crowder.
I'm coming to think we're seeing a new kind of 'demoralization troll' behavior in threads here and elsewhere, in which the commentor brings woe, despair, defeatism, hopelessness and a message that 'nothing you've done or will do in the future because the system is rigged, has been rigged, and will always be rigged by forces that are way to strong to be altered by your puny attempts to change them, and you're only showing how stupid, naive, useless, and powerless you are and always will be.'
I haven't decided yet whether to call this new technique 'demoralization trolling' or 'defeastist trollling', but you comment is surely a fine example of the method, using the 'mean, fuck-you-all' voice. I've seen another guy deliver the same messages with a lugubrious 'all is despair, failure is inevitable and soul-crushing' voice. There may be other variations, or more to come, but the shared message is 'Despair, puny humans and acknowledge that you have no power that can alter the immutable and universal definition of Reality that We have made.'
To which I say, however it is voiced: Fuck that noise. We're gonna keep working, and keep working together.
I don't know, Crone Wit. I think his P.O.V. matters.
For once, I'm not the cynic in the thread, and it's fun to feel hopeful.
But Scott is expressing a reality that is also a probable future.
The American people let this happen. Democracy has been a kabuki for a long, long time in this country. It was glaringly obvious, but the people didn't say an inconvenient word. It's also been obvious (for longer than a century) that the two-party system is just silly in a nation of this size and complexity. But the American people decided to pretend they had a representational democracy. That "pretending" has seriously damaged all of us, and caused grave and intractable harm to the nation.
So, why would one believe that the American people will suddenly rise to the occasion and seize their sovereign rights back from their rogue government? Does it seem "real" that they would engage in a coordinated revolution against the status quo after all these years of compliant abuse and denial-of-abuse?
I looked at all that Roger Fox had accomplished, and for the first time in forever, I fully entertained the possibility. It really was "empowering." This is an alternate future to Scott's, but which one will come to pass?
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
I agree with YOUR comment, Pluto; I'm not naive or unaware
of the fact that, or the manner in which, the 'Powers that Be' have controlled America's political reality. I first became aware of this in 1968-70, and I've watched it going on since then.
But please notice that in conveying your thoughts you did not feel the need to say
-- with each of those phrases followed by a scornful attack on the readers because nothing they did, or ever could do, would do any good at all because the 'Powers that Be' are invincible.
I see that comment of Scott's as a violent act, maybe even a cruel one. And, as I said, I've seen variations of the 'it's hopeless, you fools!' message appear on the sites I frequent since the last Primary Day, which (for all of us) felt like hitting a wall. As far as usernames show gender, the persons conveying this message seem to be male (Think of Ma Joad's speech to Pa at the end of Grapes of Wrath, about how men and women process 'walls' differently, it you want to understand why I brought up the maleness issue.) Whatever their gender, these particular writers are overwhelmed by a sense of failure which, for them, appears to block out the sun. They are experiencing the emotional equivalent of the start of a Nuclear Winter, and they feel they have to castigate us into feeling that, too, so they don't have to be in the dark alone.
There is a thematic sameness to all of these gloom-and-doom comments -- and they are different from the many comments in the first week or so of the aftermath which expressed grief, sadness, pain, confusion, feelings of being overwhelmed by feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness as well as just plain exhaustion. Those multitudinous comments (which were a bummer to read, no doubt!) did not carry the tone of 'accede to
eternal powerlessness, you fools!' which I find in Scott's comment above. The other hard-to-read comments were plainly made by people who understood that they were in a temporary state of emotional exhaustion, but who knew that, in a few days, they would remember that they are the kind of people who sing 'I get knoced down, and I get up again, it ain't never gonna get me down.'
Among the variations I've seen of the 'Abandon hope!' comments, two different methods have begun to make themselves evident, as I discussed above: The lugubrious method (which makes you feel like you're drowning in tar, sinking into the LaBrea tar-pits like the dinosaurs in that childhood book. The other main method -- of which Scott gives an excellent example above -- is the mean, insulting method. But the end result of either method is to use language to try to force the readers to feel despair and to relinquish their fruitless attempts to act with power.
I see that Scott states below, in a comment I haven't fully read yet, just saw it while scrolling by to write this) that he wants us to feel angry, like he does. Excuse me, but I decline to join you, Scott, in what one school of Buddhism defines as the lowest of the ten hells. As an old woman, I've had time to learn that although anger has its uses, it makes an awful place to live. And your particular hell-of-anger isn't one of the productive ways of using anger -- and your particular version of hell can't be anything but damaging, nt only for the incredible amount of energy burned up and turned into health-damaging cortisol, but because living in that version of hell does violence to the actual function of anger, which is 'to rectify'. We gain anger at age 2, the same year that we learn to say 'NO!'. And the two are related, because both are related to the violation of our boundaries and our ability to restore those boundaries by claiming our right and ability to act to regain those boundaries. This last year, we've seen millions of Americans take action to rectify the shattered boundaries of our shared political life (or, as Robert Reich said) to 'reclaim our economy and our democracy'.
The 'Establishment's' (wonderful '70s word!) methods of maintaining the Twisted System that you describe, Pluto, have been written about by many people for years and years and years. And yes, it is important to learn about those methods -- although I think you will agree that is is not necessary to cuss one's readers out to educate them on these issues. I've noticed that a lot of Progressives are highly-educated people who have managed to read (and otherwise learn) a lot of the same ideas in the highfalutin language, so when they come together to discuss this or that, they are already speaking in the same kind of 'insider' jargon. And I've noticed a propensity among those who share that language to view non-speakers with a certain disdain Perhaps blended with pity), if they notice those them at all. As someone who has spent a lifetime as a highly educated person in the pink-and-blue-collar world, I can tell you that for all those decades when the Powerful ruled uncontested, those regular guys in their taverns and those ordinary gals at the laundromat could and did have political discussion as astute and insightful as any worthwhile thread I've read in the last two decades, but they spoke in the ordinary language of ordinary people. Just as bright, and just as frustrated, as every reader has been.
But the thing that happened this last year, though, (besides the Internet) was that this old guy who had been in-but-not-of-Washington for decades realized that a whole lot of people needed to hear their real political needs named, and they needed to have solutions offered for those political problems, and they needed to be provided with way and means to come together in to takes actual, real-world steps to make those needed changes take shape in the real world. So the guy compiled his message and went out and started talking to people, using the same kind of language they used everyday. They listened, and realized that making the attempt was possible, and they called in others, and bit by bit the people who had heard the Word Of Changing Things Through Action came in their tens, then in their hundreds, then their thousands, then in their millions
And the Old Establishment of the Disempowering fought that message, and fights it still, by trying to get those whose aim is to Bring Change Through Action back into their old thralldom to the belief that The Powerful Hold all the Cards, so Give UP!
People like Scott and Lugubrious Guy may not think they are pushing the Establishment meme of 'You have No Power, Despair and Give Up!', and I'm sure they don't see themselves as working for HRC/DNC/et.al. when they speak and write in that way. But every time that mantra of powerlessness and despair is voiced, no matter the speaker's intention, that mantra in reinforced, and the recently-broken spell can again exert its emotional force and re-assert itself in the minds and hearts of those who hear or read it.
Do even when no intent to troll is (consciously) present, the mere repetition of the 'Despair, powerless foosl!' meme is trolling behavior because it reinforces the fundamental false belief by which The Powerful have kept The People in thrall, to their detriment, for so long.
I have no objection to civil discourse about the methods used by The Powerful to keep The People in thrall. but the message 'Despair, puny humans, for All Power is Ours!' is a trolling meme that I am obligated to call out -- particularly when that message is delivered in the wrapping of the mean and hate-filled 'fuck you' form of the comment that began this discussion.
That's all for now.
Your comment is both insightful and moving, Crone Wit.
Thank you for taking the time and spending the soul to express a voice of humanity that goes down to the bone. I am caught up in the meanings of your observations, which strike me as objective as you could possibly make them.
First of all, your take on the effect of despair messages on ordinary people bears repeating:
Your assessment on what I think of as "social engineering" — a "push-style" communication art, which has fully emerged with the advent of the social Internet — could not resonate more.
The psychological effect on readers that you describe looks solid to me, in both the technique used and the ultimate result achieved.
On that last, it's true that I have gained the most intense insights (on matters of profound complexity) using the language of the ordinary, which has an uncanny way of demystifying the deliberately obscure. Your comment has been particularly helpful in deconstructing propaganda, a project in which I am currently engaged.
As always, my friend, I am left better by our communication.
PS: Your Bernie-ops analysis is especially good.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
I see Scotts message as "Be empowered"
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
I saw it as, 'when are you gonna learn you're powerless,
you fucking idiots!
I'm not trying to demoralize anyone.
I'm trying to light a fire under people's butts.
We fucking WON this election from all the great work people like the OP did and we need people like that. We also need to be realistic and face the fact that before we can change anything we have to stop the election fraud first.
I'm not trying to demoralize you, I'm trying to wake you up.
Be fucking pissed. Be fucking furious. I am and I hope that comes across on this forum.
Am feelin' your pain
Trust me, we ARE already very angry how Hillary cheated and lied month after month, debate after debate, and election after election. Whether she actually ordered the vote tampering, or just condoned it by not stopping it, she had to know that her numbers were too high for the campaign she was running.
Getting the message out to the mainstream public, to future voters, to elected officials who can enact laws or audits to protect the voter are very important. The more we can present facts to everyone, the less we will sound like just blind followers of one candidate.
Bernie is one of the most public servant oriented and highly ethical politicians of my lifetime, and I am beyond disgust that he had to run against this most corrupt of candidates. The nonpartisan Foundation for Accountability and Civic Trust (FACT) placed Clinton at the top of its worst ethics violators of 2015 list.
It scare the sh*t out me what Hillary could lie and cheat and steal from the American 99% were she ever to get into power.
I'm awake. And you have no right to tell me what I have to feel.
I gave an extended reply to Pluto here --
http://caucus99percent.com/comment/111114#comment-111114
It's easy to tell you're "fucking furious". But that doesn't mean that *I* (r anyone else) have/has to "be fucking furious", or that I'm wrong or useless if I'm not.
I think you may be mistakenly equating 'being fucking pissed, being fucking furious' with 'having power and being able to act with power'.
Being angry doesn't magically give you power; all it does is give you anger (which you appear to enjoy using to lash out at others, a kind of 'kick-the-cat' displacement of anger, the kind of abuse that makes the abuser feel powerful again after his feelings about his own power shaken; and yes, the use of 'he' in regard to this method of abuse is appropriate.)
It *is* possible for one to act with power while angry; but having (or indulging in) anger does not grant or restore power.
And saying to anyone, any time, anywhere that nothing they have done or might do 'won't change a fucking thing' is the violent act of an emotional abuser.
you'd get cut from the Seahawks with that attitude
Being fucking pissed and being fucking furious is having a chip on your shoulder. It's a MOTIVATOR. If you lack that, well, fine, but don't delude yourself that that's a good thing when you're pushing for change.
You gotta have fire in your belly.
And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything you "might" do wouldn't change a fucking thing. I said unless you stop the election fraud, nothing else will matter. Nothing the OP did mattered towards getting Bernie elected because the election is rigged. Until you fight to change that fact, nothing you do WILL matter.
Tough shit if you want to whine about me instead, you're wasting your time.
Such a thoughtful reply --
deserves an answer.
So you base your rules for life on the rules about appropriate emotional behavior on some sports team? Thank you for clarifying the depth of your sources of wisdom. (You may be surprised to learn that a great many people go through their entire lives without giving a rat's ass about sports, let alone shaping their lives around a couple of cheap, hashed-together motivational slogans taken out of context.)
And this seems to be an encapsulation of the wise philosophy you learned from the jocks:
Sorry, chum, but I'm afraid that your comment doesn't make much sense to people who don't live by your poorly-defined philosophy.
You re-state the central omportance of Anger as a basis for self-definition and self-worth in your life:
Funny, in the middle-American societies I've lived in, "having a chip on your shoulder" described a person who was angry at the world, blew up over tiny things, fought with others (verbally and/or physically) really violently over tiny things, wouldn't stop fighting even after everybody could see that he had lost, and was likely to hold grudges and act on them covertly (like busting in somebody's car windows at night) long after the incident. This short fuse and uncontrollable behavior naturally made it difficult for these chip-on-the-shoulder guys (and I've only ever seen males display this behavior) -- made it hard to keep a job or keep friends. Even people who tried to stay sympathetic toward Chip Guys (like their Moms) could only describe them with pity: 'he's his own worst enemy' or 'He doesn't know what he's doing' (said while trying to get someone to excuse his behavior).
Now let's look at your 'Anger as necessary Motivatior' claim:
Here you say, in effect, that without "being fucking pissed and fucking furious" you will will be devoid of motivation and will therefore be unable to effect change. You also erroneously equate having "fire in your belly" with "[[b]eing fucking pissed and being fucking furious".
Having 'fire in your belly' is actually an image used to describe being able to maintain a high level of motivation and being able to continue to work effectively toward your goals even in the face of setbacks. Although Anger can serve for short-term motivation, there are many other energies that are better suited for long-term use in a motivated, positive-change-making life. Many of us have had the privilege of knowing people who, in their own small realm of life, have made use of their lives -- and particularly of their hardships! -- in such a way that the lives of hundreds of people are improved and enriched by those lives. (here's looking at you, Phyllis!)
One example of this way of living is shown by our own Leiper Destin in maintaining his BNR every day for over year in the very tough venue of dKos. The bad actors at dKos would have loved to have forced LD into going to the darkside by falling prey to living in Anger -- but did he let them? Hell no! Day after day he remained cheerful, positive, respectful and kind, even with his detractors -- and used the appearance of trolls in his thread as an opportunity to raise more funds for Bernie.
World-stage examples of well-directed, motivated lives who accomplished nearly miraculous social and political under extremely powerful oppressors are Dr. King, President Mandela, and the world's dear Gandhiji. Did these men experience anger, outrage, grief and feelings of powerlessness? Of course they did. Did they have people saying 'Nothing you can ever do will changes things or change things enough, so give up!' Of course they did. Did they choose to let themselves be devoured by Anger of Despair? They gathered their strength and found ways to encourage their ravaged followers to continue to work for change.
In writing all this tonight, Scott, I have not been writing 'to you' or even 'for you'. I knew from the get-go that whatever I wrote, you wouldn't get it. But that doesn't matter to me. There are other people who will read what I've written, and understand me, and get it. Those are the people it's written for. Sure, you may become able to get it, but I'm not holding my breath.
Okay, I'm done for now.
I just would like to say to you
that while you go on and on here about not attacking others or treating them as if they are merely stupid, your comments show just that attitude to me. "I knew from the get go that whatever I wrote, you wouldn't get it" is also dismissive and arrogant in the extreme to me, but that's just my humble opinion and I'm sure you'll have some snappy retort to that for me too.
As for Scott's use of a sports metaphor, that was nicely dismissed also, along with a lovely caveat about how you could give a "rats ass" for sports. I too could care not much about sports, but for you to use that condescending and dismissive phrasing, after calling someone ELSE out on tone? Just, really? SO nice that we have our own resident expert on all things "tone" to tell the rest of us how to make a comment.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment.
This is the second time you have chided me for how I comment. Perhaps my methods are in error or are otherwise offensive to the community or its standards.
If you feel I am harming discourse, I ask you to please take your concerns to the Mods. Ask them to evaluate my comments, method and style, and to discuss with me any and all ways in which I might be being inappropriate, so I can modify my behavior.
I think the timing of your making your observations is very fortuitous. Right at this moment, a community discussion is taking place regarding community comment behavior and moderation. If I am being inappropriate and damaging discourse, it might be of benefit to the community to let the Mods use my behavior as a teaching tool by using my comments and style as a discussion subject for the community.
There is certainly no reason for you to have to devote your time to being my personal, self-appointed 'tone cop'; that kind of thing is the reason Moderators exist. I might even bring this up with the Mods myself, but since you are the one offended by my behavior, I think the complaint would be more appropriately raised by you, the complainant.
I would have to assume that, if you make a third 'tone complaint', that you are too shy to bring my behavior to the Mods' attention. At that point, I would bring the situation go the Mods myself, for the community's benefit and my own edification.
Cronewit...
stop.
Sorry, Johnny. I didn't see your 6:14 comment until just now,
after I posted my 7:20 comment.
Johnny, I'm at a complete loss right now. You are telling me 'stop' -- which means that I am obviously violating some unwritten behavioral rule(s), but I don't know what boundary I'm crossing or what I'm doing wrong! And without knowing what I'm doing wrong, how can I do right? What standards am I expected to comply with, and how am I breaking them?
You will note from the timestamps in this thread that there have been a lot of 'crossing in times' in this discussion with me having twice gotten instructions from Mods to 'Stop' while I was in the midst of writing a comment that was posted quite a few minutes after the instruction to Stop. These 'crossings in time' make the thread look, at first glance, as though I was being told 'stop', then continuing to comment and that I did that twice, which would qualify as a scofflaw disregard for Mod's authority. That is not how it played out in realtime! And I mean no such disregard.
I read through the Moderation diaries & threads yesterday and today (although a lot of parts were incomprehensible to me, since I hadn't read the problem thread). In today's thread, I cam to understand that you, Johnny, saw tensions and verbal hostilities escalating to the point that they were close to damaging the site, so you closed down comments. I can only assume (unless you clarify) that your instructions here to Stop were based on Mod's perception that hostilities had gone (or were close to going) too far for the good of the site.
I do not see that there was any escalating tension between lizzy and myself today. There was some slight tension and testiness in lizzy's letter, because she found my behavior offensive. There were indicators in her language that she expected me to escalate -- however, I did not. I wrote my first comment, in which -- since my behavior had offended herr twice -- I acknowledge that it was possible that my behavior was indeed offensive, but in ways I did not yet recognize. I indicated my willingness to receive instructions about the ways in which my behavior might be damaging the site, and suggested we take the issue to the Mods to I could learn about the ways in which my behavior was inappropriate. That was my first comment today.
After posting that first comment, I saw dkmich's instruction to Stop, which was already rather old. I took his instruction to mean 'Stop arguing with lizzy'. But Lizzy and I weren't arguing, and in fact never did argue in this thread. dkmich was not aware that I had just posted a comment which I hoped would demonstrate that I was taking lizzy's concerns seriously, and that I hoped would make it possible for lizzy and I to move into peaceable discussion.
And I was glad that dkmich has showed up, because it gave me an opportunity to raise with him the possibility of my having my behavior evaluated by, and receiving instruction from the Mods (which I was willing to have made public as a 'teachable moment' for the community around the current issues of community standards and moderation). Since I had already 'gone on record' here, when I first arrived, about my 'hint deafness' and resulting need for clearly-communicated expectations, I re-introduced that aspect of myself because it would be central in the intervention I was requesting from the Mods. That was my second comment today.
After posting that second comment, I saw JtC's instruction to Stop; my breath stopped in my throat and returned in a panic; my pulse sped up. 'Stop what? Existing? Breathing? Commenting entirely? Having thoughts become words streaming through my brain to be expressed? Having fingers that move clickety-clack on the keyboard making room for those words? How am I wrong, and how can I correct it?' [NB: the presence of 'Existing? Breathing?' at the top of that list will suggest to the reader why my child-psyche had developed the hint-deafness before I was 3, and why I call it a survival skill.]
So there I sat, immobilized. At a complete loss about what to do next. If JtC's Stop meant 'Stop commenting entirely', then even if I just wrote and posted one word, I was already toast, for flouting MOD's authority. If JtC's Stop meant 'Stop arguing with lizzy' -- well, lizzy and I didn't argue in this thread, that I know of. So there shouldn't be any sanctions for making a non-arguing comment that isn't to lizzy. And further I know not.
So this is my third comment today. I'll post this, read the critter diary, and leave for today. Wonder if I'll still be here when I come back tomorrow.
CroneWit.
You make good points but then
even you have digressed into what some might view as name calling and I just think that if you're going to call others out on that, you should be willing to look at how some of your own comments could be construed that way. Making comments about people not understanding your points but dismissing them when they may not be as articulate as you are in making theirs just rubbed me the wrong way.
Your posts are very educational, and I think you may need to remember that some of us do read these comments and learn from them. That, to me, that was the greatest things many times about even that other place - while the diarist may have left things out, others were always there to fill in the facts and context, and that is priceless. But when you act as if others SHOULD know all that you know, and make remarks making them sound stupid for not knowing those things, you take away from your own very valid expertise. When you commented yesterday on the Espionage Act and sounded berating when asking the person you were addressing if they'd lived under a rock for not knowing some part of it? Hell, I had a clearance and even I don't know the finer points.
Maybe I misconstrued your tone, that is easily done in email as well as here. I in no way mean to be your personal moderator, and I will most likely refrain next time from commenting. That is all I meant to point out. Probably didn't do it in a very articulate way either, point taken. Peace?
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
lizzy, what a graceful and gracious reply!
It seem that both dkmich and JtC got the mistaken idea that we were at each other's throats and about to burst into flames!
There was a little tension and a slight testiness for a bit, but I hoped that my reply to you would let you know that I heard your concerns and was taking them seriously.
I went ahead and took the step of telling JtC and kdmich about my suggestion that you & I use this moment as the basis for a kind of 'intervention' for me to understand the standards and improve my ways. But at this moment, I dont know if I'll still be here tomorrow when I come back!
Well, lizzy, I want you to know that I appreciate your very kind reply very much! I hope we have an opportunity to get to know each other better as time goes on.
Best wishes CW
lizzy...
stop.
will do, just wanted to say I was not very good
at making my point. thanks man.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
Scott...
stop.
Mod speaking: Can we just stop.
There have been enough comments asking people to stop. JtC published a WTF diary asking people to stop. Can we just stop? Walk away.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon
Hi, dkmich. Sorry, I was writing the comment above
on my tablet (a slow process!) when you posted your 5:44 comment, and didn't see your comment until I opened c99 on my laptop and edited my 5:58 comment (now 6:12) for typos.
If you haven't read my comment, please do! In it, I suggest taking the issue of my method and style to the mods for review and discussion of any and all ways in which my method/style might be harming the community or damaging discourse. It's a genuine offer!
Very soon after I came here, There was a Meta discussion introducing newcomers to c99's style of moderation and sketching out appropriate/inappropriate behaviors here. I commented there expressing my consternation that, due to what I consider a social disability (a total deafness to hints about my behavior, a necessary survival skill in my childhood) the 'a word in your ear' method would very likely not work on me. I asked that if the Mods saw me acting inappropriately, that they have a clear and frank discussion about the problem with me, so I could understand the problem and alter my behavior if needed.
The way that 'hint-deafness' works is that when someone makes hints to me as a way to get me to change my behavior, I do not hear that statement as being about me. I hear it as a statement that the speaker is making about his or her own life and feelings, and that it would be inappropriate -- even rude -- to acknowledge or respond to that private expression. (I know, weird -- but it kept me alive.)
In my world, I think of hints as 'indirect', even 'masked' communication -- because the whole 'hinting' and 'taking the hint' scenario is based on the Hinter saying one thing that is not what they really mean, and expecting the Hintee to hear the thing that was NOT said and change her behavior accordingly. If the Hintee doesn't 'take the hint', they are viewed as 'being difficult' and of actually 'getting it' but pretending not to, just to be obstinate -- which just leads to more aggravation on the Hinter's part.
When I finally began to understand (in my mid-30s) how that social interaction was supposed to play out, it didn't make any sense to me. 'If they don't *say* it, how am I supposed to receive it, let alone act on it?' I asked; 'Am I supposed to read their minds and act according to what I think they might want?' This didn't make any sense to me. And during my college years, both the 70s-era Interpersonal Therapies I studied (which focused a lot on communication) and my Communication Theory-prof boss, asserted repeatedly that 'In any communication, it is the responsibility of the Communicator to ensure that the message had been made clear enough for the Receiver to completely understand it'; then the two would switch roles and the conversation would inch forward step by step. In the same way that the 'mindreading mode' didn't make sense, this 'the Speaker is responsible for making him/herself understood' model *did* make sense. So that method was what I chose to continue, with my early childhood survival skill confirmed as rational and reasonable by two academic schools of thought.
So if my behavior or style are unacceptable, please don't ask me to guess at what the definition of 'appropriate' is. (Obviously, if my behavior is wrong, my guesses about 'appropriate behavior' have already failed.) If my behavior is wrong (unacceptable), then please use direct, clear language to inform me of my errors and the expectations I should try to meet. And if making this discussion public to assist the community in developing its standards and its methods of moderation, I would be glad to make this usually-private available for the betterment of the community.
Please take this comment to the other mods for their consideration. Thank you.
Time for us all to go watch Disney-Pixar’s “Inside Out” again
1. Anger is a basic emotion with an essential function
2. Anger is only one of a team that includes other basic, equally valid and essential emotions (in the movie: Joy, Sadness, Fear, and Disgust)
So for me it’s positive that Scott is channeling the Anger character in line with point 1. And it’s also positive that other people are pushing back hard and speaking up in favor of other attitudes, in line with point 2.
We voted on paper
And I have played a role in fighting DRE voting since 2005, got Rebeca Mercuri to testify in NJ against the purchase of the Sequoia Advantage DRE's in NJ.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
What are DRE's?
Direct Recording Electronic
Direct Recording Electronic voting machines.
Thanks.
That's what I'm saying.
But it doesn't mean I'm going to do butkus for the Democratic party after the convention. More revolution, yes. The party can go screw itself right in the ear.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I'm down with more revolution -
Got UR back on that one.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
First time I ever bookmarked a single Essay here.
Because it is the first time I've seen "revolution" defined with authenticity. I bookmarked it because I don't want to forget the way it made me feel.
Toward the end, you use the word "empower" and I understood it at an entirely new level. I felt the potential of empowerment unleashed. It is an awesome transformation of self.
You did this, Roger, in the most unlikely county, the most symbolic county in the nation during the primaries. That makes you a community organizer, extraordinaire.
You're the kind of leader this revolution needs.
____________________
The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Hear hear, Pluto!
Kind words & high praise
Its not me telling people what to do, cause Bernie asked us to do the same thing I'm asking people to do.
We are the campaign, we are the revolution. If we are not the revolution there won't be one. I for one am down for a fight to the finish.
I will not stand down. We shall not stand down.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
Nobody here is telling you to stand down.
We are applauding your actions.
(Except Scott, who said that 'nothing you did/may do will make one fucking bit of difference', and said it several times in one comment. I know you don't agree with my reading of Scott's comment, but I tend to stick pretty closely to the words as written, and he was pretty global in his condemnation.)
Look forward please.
Let it go CW. He has anger, but you are egging it on even more. There has been injustice done during this primary, and anger is the normal response to unfairness.
Now, let us CHANNEL that anger/energy and get the word out beyond the world of the Berniecrats. We need to do our part to shine a light on it and help laws get passed that will bring it to an end for any future voting.
I am from a caucus state, and in my precinct was able to be a spotter and double check the numbers as they were reported and the delegates calculated. I had been warned by what happened in earlier states, and had my calculator on hand that day.
We do not have a democratic party
in my county since 2008. The former chairmen are both registered republicans now.
Locally, the cop running for constable who ran against the machine had his house set on fire. The district attorney, another constable, a county commissioner, and the county judge all got arrested, indicted, "not guilty" verdicts, lives and careers destroyed. I received anonymous death threats because I represented those people in portions or all of their trials. I got shot at. I couldn't go out at night alone for years.
So, it was wonderful to leave local politics behind and get interested in a presidential campaign.
And now, I am being urged to fall in line, or get into down ballots. Not me. Never again will I risk getting involved with local politics.
I will financially support a 3rd party. That's all I can or will do.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." ---- William Casey, CIA Director, 1981
Actually, though--
I do have a big problem with this part of the diary:
Guess what? It aint about you, it aint about your emotional reactions to what needs to be a business decision.
That is the belief that killed a hundred movements. It's all just a professional business decision by political experts way up here in the clouds we don't care what you little people feel which is really irrelevant. Saying that to people, especially under conditions that encourage them to despair, is a bad idea if you want any continued organization or action.
I think we should be caring a lot more about what the little people feel than we do.
It's through our disregard for our feelings that progressives are most effectively propagandized--it's the way the plutocracy gets us to shut down, shut up, and stop working. They propagandize right wingers through their intellects, because the right wing, since the 80s, disrespects rationality. They disrespect critical analysis and don't care what is true. So it's easier to attack them by fooling their minds. Progressives can't be propagandized like that, for the most part. We're strong in our minds, and we have a high regard for reason, critical thought, evidence, facts. So they don't propagandize us through our minds. They attack our hearts, because we disrespect our emotions as irrational fluff that shouldn't affect us. So we are weaker and more vulnerable in our emotions and they play us like harps.
If you really think it ain't about us and it ain't about the way we feel, you completely misunderstand what the real fight is about. The fight is about what people believe is possible. It's about what people feel. That's why Clinton's main weapons have been despair and fear--and despair is her far more potent weapon. She's been bludgeoning us and the entire Sanders movement with it, as have her surrogates in the MSM and elsewhere, for six months!
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
14 year old Harry, one of the little people
I guess hes a political expert up in the clouds.......
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
Not what I meant.
Your comment about the business decision was about Bernie's decision, not Harry's--right?
The professional politician makes his business decision and the feelings of the rank and file aren't important--except you obviously KNOW they are, since what you're aiming for is to keep people from despairing. Right?
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
I had no problem
understanding exactly what you meant. I wanted to make a similar reply but just couldn't get the words to line up right.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Admiration and THANKS for your work, and for
the volunteers and future candidates you raised up!
It's only the planet and our lives which are at stake
But I guess that's not as important as servicing the unstoppable greed, corruption and short-sightedness of those who want to own us.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Amen.
FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.
Its about Veronica...
These people are birthing a new progressive political movement, and I see them everywhere. They are the promise of a better tomorrow, one that is shared by every living being on the planet. They are the only hope I have for a world saner than the one their parents and grandparents have given them. They want a future to believe in, and they will fight and organize, together, for it.
We owe it to them to assist and support them in every way possible so that none of them ever have to face the prospects we face today.
Thank you for sharing this piece. It underlines the meaning of "#NotMeUS." You should be commended for the work you've done in pointing the way.
My "business decision"
is to vote for Jill Stein and the Greens, since I trust them to uphold values that were the hallmark of my support for Bernie. Luckily, the Greens are on most of the ballots since there is no other acceptable alternative. If someone has another idea that doesn't involve Hillary, Trump or Johnson, hopefully that will be put on the table sometime before November 2016. We have a country full of angry people who are willing to back a massive change in the presidency and voted in large numbers to do just that. Keeping that momentum going when Bernie seems to be poised to remove himself from the equation because of an obsolete agreement with the dishonest DNC will not be accomplished by telling backers that they're petty and selfish because they're trying to make sense of the directionless situation we're in right now. Yes, us not me, but only one person can be President of the United States of America.
as disappointment sets in we will get crabbier and crabbier
and take it out on each other. That's a normal thing. Nobody should take it personally.
I am not dissapointed
If someone had told me a few years ago that Bernie Sanders was going to not only run for the Dem nom but to get all the way to the convention I would have thought them absolutely insane. The establishment is crapping itself and I am ecstatic - and I suspect that I am not the only one.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
The day he entered the race I sent Bernie $$
I was energized and excited... I also took the risk of turning my FB feed into a daily support Bernie page... And became educated on his stances on various issues to be able to speak intelligently to the push backs. I Volunteered locally (Bklyn NY) and encouraged younger friends who were taking it to the streets for Bernie.
being someone who has had direct contact with local pols and very direct contact with the press I realized we would not be allowed to WIN the NY primary. and was not surprised when we didn't..but I WAS angry. I was angry about how ALL the press had already declared we would not win, how the ginormous rally up in the Bronx was virtually unreported, how the party put thousands of party thumbs on the scales etc etc. But I kept positive and kept pushing and kept donating... And IMHO it freaked out the NY party.. A very destructive to democracy MACHINE. Did Bernie losE big in NY... I don't think he did but I DONT KNOW ... did Bernie Lose in CALI. I don't think so but I DONT KNOW. and I don't know because we o longer have a real press In America anymore. And that is a fight we MUST take on.
I no longer watch cable "news". I rarely watch ANY news because news in America is owned by corps and they control the national narrative. For instance... This morning I turned on ABC for an update to the Orlando shootings... Got some tug on heart strings story and then a rah rah Clinton story and then a trump bad story and the 3 stories about DISNEY... ABC is owned by Disney. I DONT CARE that Disney is opening a park in CHINA. I don't care about the sequel to the fish movie. 49 people were murdered I. Orlando... And I got DISNEY.
you want to start making real change... FIGHT THE CORP TAKEOVER OF THE AMERICA. MEDIA. IMHO Until we reinstate a free media with a real backbone to report the REAL NEWS nothing is going to change.
Orwell was an optimist
Agreed
Boycott their sponsors
Picket their headquarters on an ongoing basis
Coordinate emailing/letter writing/phone calls to MSM mgmt & sponsors
Ridicule, mock, and expose their 'reporters', 'pundits', and false 'narratives', wherever and whenever possible
Work diligently to grow the movement so the propaganda/noise-machine becomes obsolete