Why HRC is Better Than Trump
UPDATE 2:06 PM PST
Well, that escalated quickly. To sum up my comments.
1. I am truly sorry for the timing of this diary. Yuuge mistake.
2. Sorry for using words that, due to my ignorance, I did not realize were triggers: "hate, purity, emotional, cookie" these have been marked as the sure sign of trollism, and I am sorry I let such words further undermine already very unpopular opinion.
3. To those I pissed off, or set off their troll alarms - I hate to grovel, but I am not above asking you to please forgive my shoddy timing and word choice, and not let this diary define my presence here. I have learned a lot here, and felt welcomed, and been thrilled to have a new place to go after leaving TOP. A troll I am not, and will never be. Hopefully, I haven't created a situation where I just get dismissed out of hand, but if so I guess I brought it on myself.
UPDATE 5:26 AM:
Thank you all for commenting. As usual, I learned a lot from the discussion. There were some not thrilled, and I get it. My timing was for shit, first and foremost. And I want you to know there tonight for Bernie's speech.
twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/740439072502652939
It is an emotional time. We all have to deal in our own way. Mine is to convince everybody to do something I already know they don't want to do, at the worst possible time, when I myself get to vote for Jill Stein because I am in Cali. I think editorial discretion is the lesson here. But to those who read and commented, thank you, and I hope you didn't get too pissed off.
First, this is not the best time for this, but it was a comment I left on a previous diary and I thought it was substantial enough to make it's own, so here it is.
I know this lesser of two evils argument is hated around here, and rightfully so. But I still feel I can make the case that if the #PoliticalRevolution can ONLY have Clinton or Trump this year, and Bernie does not go independent, that it IS MUCH better for the Movement to have a President Clinton than a President Trump. I will never tell anyone they SHOULD vote for HRC, especially if they view their vote as a pure expression of their beliefs. And I respect #BernieOrBust to the utmost. However, personally, and this is just me (he said putting up his hands like Vince Vaughn might) , I look at a vote as a strategic choice. Strategically, IMHO, it is MUCH better to have Clinton. Here is why.
1. The Supreme Court-This is obviously the heart of most lesser of two evils arguments, which makes it a hated device amongst the left, which it should be. The thing is, we hate it because it works, and it works because it has to. Anybody who understands politics understands that the Court is key because of it's power, but also because bad picks last a lifetime, and they do damage. If you don't understand what Scalia, Rheinquist, et al, along with the Federalist Society have done to this country, then you probably won't buy this argument. But if you know, then you really know. That damage is not so easily undone.
2. Power begets power. Anybody living in a red state will tell you that as soon as the GOP gets any real power they start fucking shit up right away, Flint style, Scott Walker Style, Kansas Tax Cut style, Texas Abortion Style, etc. But also, through politicizing of every sector of government, and downright using their positions of authority to straight up cheat, the GOP finds ways to get MORE power and make it MUCH harder for the Movement to gain traction.
Right now, the GOP has the House, Senate, states, and half the court. Trump is no run of the mill Republican, but HE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT except on pet issues. And protecting rights and NOT expanding power exponentially is not one of his pet issues. GOP full control is a scary thing. The Iraq War, and a lot of other bad shit, happened the last time that was the case. With so many GOP held offices around the country, HRC would be a bit of a countervailing force.
3. My most original argument:
If Trump is President, WE FIGHT HIM. BUT,
there will be violent youth riots in reaction to racist policies, which will bring a police crackdown and suburban backlash. This is the WORST thing that could happen to the left.
If Clinton is President, WE FIGHT HER. BUT,
the youth will protest injustices of all kinds, instead of riot, and we will organize and pressure Dems-THAT IS MUCH MORE PLEASANT
4. National Security
This one is a tough call. But Trump IS erratic, unstable, unfit, and his party is filled with belligerent jerks who could easily bully him into action. I think there is little chance of us committing non-Special Forces ground troops anywhere under either Trump or HRC, due to $$ and war fatigue in both parties, but Trump is an embarrassing and dangerous nightmare on the world stage.
HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC. Cheney was a warmonger. HRC, Biden, and Kerry were cowards in their Iraq vote. They wanted tough-guy credibility. Kerry felt he got burned when he voted against Gulf War 1, and it "went well," so he was a yes. HRC wanted to be a post 9-11 President. She has no conscience. But warmonger? No.
The weapons deals to the middle east? Yes they are terrible, but this IS US policy right now. Why? First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death. Second, and more importantly, we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.
So basically, if it's Trump or Clinton, we must FIGHT them tooth and nail. Strategically, and to mitigate a new level of race-baiting, I would rather FIGHT Clinton.
So there you have my well-reasoned yet certainly unpopular opinion. As I say, thank you for reading and commenting if you like. And as always, I wish I could give you a cookie. But, as always, this thing just doesn't work like that.
Comments
There's a reason
There's a reason the AP came out a day early with their declaration that Hillary won. Hillary banks early votes, and the declaration suppressed voting day votes. This was planned weeks in advance, and carried through effectively.
"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me
And that's how Bill knew Sanders was *toast*.
These people are unfuckingbelievable in their sheer brazen-ness.
If I was the praying type, I'd be on my knees begging that karma gets them nailed to a couple of crosses before they get us all blown to Hell with their warmongering stupidity. Every time I hear the words "Clinton" and "Israel" in the same sentence, I get a little more terrified.
Possibly this?
http://www.gregpalast.com/california-stolen-sanders-right-nowspecial-bul...
Clinton and Trump are not the answer
So why vote for half of 'not the answer'?
Fortunately, this isn't a partisan site, so I am where I thought I'd be a year ago. A 'write-in' for Bernie (if viable/allowed), or another vote for Jill Stein.
Gëzuar!!
from a reasonably stable genius.
Hillary will pursue a Trump-like agenda
on foreign policy as a seasoned battle-axe, with numerous kills already to her credit.
"HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC." A more self-contradictory statement could not have been made with any less words. To say she is no warmonger, that is illogical and it doesn't deserve much of a rebuttal.
"First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death.."
Really disgusting statement. Anyone who can muster up that as logic is no different than a serial killer on the loose, justifying the victims as losers. I am removing my short-lived status in the Democratic Party permanently now, after reading a statement like this. I only registered to vote Bernie in the primary. Never again. Now you've convinced me by such perverted logic that the Democrats are absolute scum, you are a perfect example of that corruption, and I'm glad Bernie may no longer want to be associated with such a corrupt, insane political party.
Trump is also a corrupt businessman with a decadent, hedonist lifestyle. It's more open to question on what he will do in office. Probably more like a Bush v3.0.
Hillary is in permanent denial over Zelaya. This was a coup d'etat. She sponsored it as Sec. of State. A military dictatorship or rightwing oligarch is her preferred form of government in Latin America. It's happening now with the embattled Roussef government in Brazil, but also her exploiter class is attacking the progressive movements in Paraguay and more recently, in Argentina.
“Can you imagine if they had found offshore companies in my name?”, former leftwing Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner asked. The current President Mauricio Macri is implicated in the Panama Papers scandal.
I think of Ana Maria Matute and her writings, especially about the Spanish Civil War. She died recently in 2014. Her stories usually returned back to the inhumanity against the children and the poor, caught in the crossfires of the fighting. Our next civil war need not be with guns and military battles. The oligarchs, the generals in charge, they will win by slowly killing us off by austerity measures, homelessness, lack of available medical care. God knows what else they will envision.
The key question is how much support Bernie can give to the Green Party with Jill Stein? That's really the only option for me.
Hillary is no populist, and it's trying to mix oil and water when asking Bernie supporters to vote for her. Never the twain shall meet.
NOT MY LOGIC- US GOVT LOGIC
It is not my logic, and I am against arming the world, or indeed even having for-profit arms manufacturers exist, for the record.
Do not misunderstand my diary as a defense of ANYTHING HRC or Obama, except perhaps on the their OVERALL court choices as solid.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Thank you
But it damn sure has to be said, and more than once. This just makes no sense:
that is NOT "the government's logic", if I'm reading the post correctly, it's the logic of the poster. And it has none.
It's been nice to have a discussion--always is good to talk among folks I have a lot of respect for. But I hope the poster learned something, and that something is a real treat for them. That treat, as a matter of fact, could be reported to any Powers That Be (wherever they are) and it would be pretty representative of what they're up against.
I hope they all learn something about the resolve of all the Dems who are about to tell the Democratic Party of the United States of America to go fuck off and die, and all the indies that are laughing at the very nerve of the Clintonistas, expecting them to unite with something they've never been a part of. Said Powers That Be should just save themselves some time, because people that really understand what Bernie Sanders stands for is something they will never know. The Powers That Be song and dance isn't good enough anymore. They not gonna convince me to vote for their bullshit candidates anymore.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
All due respect, but this isn't convincing
In particular the arguments regarding SCOTUS and national security lack credibility.
SCOTUS is only a winner for Hillary if one considers just two areas: abortion or Citizens United. On Citizens United she lacks credibility--she's taken advantage of the CU ruling to gain the nomination, and it is incredible to think she would seriously consider whether a nominee would overturn CU. What about other things, like NSA surveillance or drug laws? Hillary is a conservative on those matters, and it isn't reasonable to think she'll nominate somebody better than a republican on them.
On foreign policy and national security she's no better than Trump. In many ways she's worse: he's all talk so far whereas she voted for Iraq, pushed for Libya and Honduras and favors increased aggression in Syria. These are all things Trump is likely as not to favor (literally--he's unpredictable, and may or may not favor them on any given paragraph in one of his word salad buffets). I'll take the chance he decides against aggression over her belligerence any day of the week. Besides the issue of the morality of her choices on war, there are domestic issues to consider: foreign military entanglements drain our domestic resources. They also impact the safety of Americans abroad (usually negatively). And don't get me started on matters of national surveillance and other domestic security issues.
As far as power begetting power, the democratic party under the Clintons has for 25 years steadily lost power to the Republicans. Partly this is because the democratic leadership has not confronted Republican grabs for power. Whether it's deliberate or not is immaterial: the fact is that under the Clinton-style democratic party we have had these losses. It is incredible to me that anyone could believe electing Hillary would reverse that, when Hillary has literally been part of the reason the Republicans have risen to power.
Fighting Clinton is fighting Republicans as far as policy goes. They're different mainly in methodology and rhetoric.
She lacks credibility on abortion TOO
Or have you missed all those quotes about how she's "open to" more limitations on it?
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
She's explicitly said any SCOTUS nominee must
support abortion rights.
Now, whether her rhetoric can be trusted is debatable (not really: she's a liar).
Not at all
she's already said she'd compromise with the loony Right.
So no, she's lying here, just like she lies about everything else.
Agree wholeheartedly
with your comment but thinks this part is a bit of an unknown:
Unfortunately Bernie supporters appear to be queuing up to write unity diaries over at TOP.
Looks like the Democratic Socialist curious are now returning to their comfort zone.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
Entirely predictable, actually. I've written as much, there
here, and on the Kossaks for Sanders reddit.
I think some Bernie supporters have seriously underestimated two things: 1) how conservative the people of this country, and in particular democrats, are; 2) just how hard this "political revolution" will be.
I think that a lot comes down to temperament
Many feel uncomfortable if they perceive themselves to be on the outside.
Also, I am moderately hopeful that a significant portion of Sanders supporters are in this for the long haul. One thing that adds to this hope is that for many of us the campaign was an iteration of Occupy and others came over from BLM and other movements. Many weel peel off and return to the party fold but those who remain are in it for the long haul - this is not just about one election.
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire
The votes Hillary won't get
are not from people who post on Daily Kos. So it doesn't matter that some new conversion narratives are being posted there. It doesn't really surprise me.
The votes Hillary won't get are from those who don't go online to discuss politics. It is the independents she won't get, the people in rural areas who formerly had manufacturing as a basis for their local economies who were decimated by 1990s trade agreements and who now see a gaping hole of nothing for their futures. But somehow, I'm sure the progressive left will be to blame. They always are.
HAHAHA!
Yeah, I'll bet they were supporters. LOL! Have any of them been there since before 2016?
The Daily Kos
The pulse of what progressives and Bernie supporters are feeling?
You have got to be kidding me. That site is infested with paid shills. Please, spare us all the temptation to ridicule anyone citing the Daily Kos as a harbinger of anything that isn't manufactured straight out of the Clinton Camp, will ya?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
A historical footnote about "safe states" voting:
Its results are much less than impressive. Remember this plea, from 2004?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...
OK, now those vote totals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2004
You can read from the table that David Cobb came in seventh in the popular vote, with 0.1% of the vote. All of those great "Left" luminaries endorsing the plan, David Cobb campaigning in all fifty states, and that's what they did. But there's a reason: "safe states" voting is an attempt to decaffeinate the idea of political principle, which is that you would vote for a particular candidate because doing so is in your self-interest. "Safe states" voting is voting only when there's no point to it.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
... looks like the $hill's trolls are migrating over
from the GOS --
When Cicero had finished speaking, the people said “How well he spoke”.
When Demosthenes had finished speaking, the people said “Let us march”.
I don't get that feeling in
I don't get that feeling in this thread, but there is at least one bomb-throwing $$Hillbot douche troll commenting here.
You know the type; start with an insult, then harangue everyone for not wanting to engage in 'discussion'.
Attempting to unite progressivrs
behind an unindicted oligarch who just stole an election is TROLLING.
Ya, no matter how politely it's done
it IS still trolling. I'm with ya, but I'm willing to humor the nicer ones, even for a little bit.
It's always so instructive, when you get down to brass tacks with them, how they ignore well-placed, polite, in-depth questions in response. I hear crickets on at least three threads here already...
Please chill on this, okay?
The problem with the Daily Clinton was that the moderation became Red State moderation as of March 15th of this year. I could deal with the trolls, and as the author of more than 400 diaries and as a fierce opponent of the party line, I saw plenty of them.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
But polite trolling is still 'concern trolling'.
One 'essay' does not a pattern make.
Once Markos told us criticism of HRC was out
(Oh that's right -- he created this nonexistent category called "constructive criticism" of HRC -- whaddaya gonna say, "be a better syndicate leader?")
-- once he made her untouchable, the legions of wannabe hall monitors were notifying Elfling of every little slight to the party line, and the place became Red State right away.
If the mods here can make us safe from THAT, we should be good to go.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
Please read comments
I hope by reading the totality of my comments, along with my mea culpas, that you will conclude I am just a free-thinker with terrible judgement, and not a paid troll. If I thought this is where this would lead, I would not have posted. But as we see, I didn't think hard enough.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
hang in there man
I don't think it's site policy that we have to take an oath to NOT vote for Hillary. Yet, anyway.
Appreciate it
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
I've been a whistle-blower and union organizer
in the past. Small time events, nothing grand to brag about, can post some links if you like to read for interest. Some of us meet challenges head on and face the battle even when we know the odds are against us.
Generally speaking, human nature migrates to the path of least resistance. Go with the flow, come along to get along. Don't rock the boat. Tow the line. It's just the basic survival instinct in society.
But Bernie Sanders was not cut from the same cloth. He knows how the system turns on you, how it will spend enormous financial resources to discredit you, Yet his moral compass always points back to the same direction, even after it is shaken and has taken a small beating. There was a reason he came on board the Dems, but it was not to enrich his pockets from the charity of the oligarchs.
He has a bigger picture in mind, I don't presume to understand it at this point, but neither can I accept that he will end the political struggle on their terms. No matter how his strategy will develop in the coming days and weeks, I sure he won't kowtow to the queen.
Bernie or Bust!
Never Hillary
Never Hillary! Never ANY Clinton ( this includes future Chelsea )!! My only dilemma will be 1. Write in Bernie 2. Green Party 3. Vote for Trump if it looks like she might win my state. But as you can see, Never a vote for Hillary!
I thot this was a well reasoned and respectfully presented
essay. The only thing I didn't appreciate was that you put "hate" in the title. Disagreement is not hate.
The essay gets a rec from me for discussion altho I disagree completely it.
LesserEvilism is what got us where we are today and LesserEvilism will only continue the status quo which sucks for most of us.
I continue to support Bernie as long as he is in the running and then I will switch my support to Jill Stein, a woman who would actually make the attempt to change things for the better.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
"Lesser-evilism" only encourages the lesser evil to become
even less lesser evil the next time around -- a lesser lesser evil -- which in this case, allows for the lesser evil to be about as Republican as you can be and still be called a Democrat (a rather debased brand anyway at this juncture).
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon
Hey LL, I actually think I understood this.
The whole paradigm of LesserEvilism is so convoluted that only a convoluted explanation can come close to a word picture of the MindMaze that is LesserEvilism:
The Ruling Class wants us forever stuck in that MindMaze and wants to us convinced that we can NEVER find our way out of it.
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth.-Lucy Parsons
Someone on our Subreddit referred to the
lesser of two evils as having become the evil of two lessers ...
Take this BS back to GOS
There is a reason C99P exists and it's not for this goddamned $hillary propaganda.
Clinton Better than Trump?
Clinton is better than Trump because fighting her is more pleasant? Ha, surely you jest. Never seen your diaries before, yet all of a sudden, right after Cali, you migrate here to effect a rapprochment between Berners and Clintonbots? Very suspicious.
Very suspicious and completely predictable n/t
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
I can see now that is how this looks
I hope u read my comments and see that I see your point, and wish I had not shared this now. Ans maybe this was never the venue. Live and learn, but please don't automatically dismiss me as a troll. It's just not true, and that still counts for something.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Not feeling the Meh.
Sorry.
To embroider that further: Regrettably, she and the party seem to have chosen a course that will allow her to very precisely snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. They've done a *great* job of getting the support of 53%, of the 29% of the electorate that are still willing to identify as Democrats.
Unfortunately, in so doing, they have also managed to alienate a good chunk of the 41% of the electorate that no longer cares to state a party preference, and who (like it or not) are critical to success in the general election. Now, the chances are increasingly good that a lot of those folks will simply choose not to bother to vote, even beyond the numbers that will be motivated to vote Green. Combine that with the fact that many (if not most) R's hate the name Clinton even more than the name Obama, and you have the makings of a perfect storm: even R's that actively loathe Drumpf will hold their noses and vote for him simply as a way of voting against her, since it appears that they loathe her *more*.
I suspect that this election will have the lowest turnout percentage in history, and that is a Pyrrhic pity, to my way of thinking. But the Democratic Party and its owners will have gotten *exactly what it wanted*.
Well, good for them. They have clearly played the game to perfection, and I for one have received the message loud and clear. It doesn't matter at all what I do, and I'm in a swing state. Thus my plan to change my registration (after 40 years) from D to "no preference" the day after the coronation. I have other things to do with my remaining time and energy.
It's not even 53% of 29%. Turnout
is around 12% of eligible voters for Democrats. Hillary is being nominated because 6.3% of eligible voters think she should be. Let that sink in as a lesson for how broken our system is. Any other country with turnout this low would be mocked for having sham elections.
Ah the old " Cholera is
Ah the old " Cholera is better than Ebola..." canard...how predictable.
I'm wondering
if the best possible outcome, besides of course indictment etc..., is HRC winning an all-time low voter turnout election something like 39% to 37% with the Green Party/Libertarian/write in picking up the rest. She would want to maintain power and thus, in theory, would be forced to govern from the left. Of course that actually requires the left not voting for her!
It's true right now like it was back then. The old devils are at it again. When I say devil you know who I mean these animals in the dark malicious politicians with nefarious schemes charlatans and crooked cops. - 'Old Devils' William Elliot Whitmore
I don't care how horrible
I don't care how horrible trump is, I won't be voting for the slightly different but equally horrible Hillary Clinton.
"If you're on fire, and running down the street, people will get out of your way." Davey- Cordovan Athabascan Native
Hillary is a monster.
Trump is just a racist buffoon. We stand to see more damage globally with a Hillary presidency than we do with a Trump presidency. Hell, we likely wouldn't see much actual damage with a Trump presidency, as he has no support at all in either party to enact his idiotic ideas. Sure, some of his domestic ideas may get through, but I don't believe Hillary's domestic ideas are any better than the ones that Trump could get passed through congress. I think Hillary would actually be able to achieve more bad domestic policies than Trump ever could, because as has been proven, she has a majority of democrats supporting her, who will agree with whatever horrible for the people policies she decides is a great thing for her to do (will fatten her bank account). And I'm certain enough republicans would jump on many of those same issues, while blocking any small good ideas Hillary has, because despite all the bravado about how they're so anti-Hillary, they love all the same corrupting practices she lives and breathes.
Domestically, I don't see much difference between the two. Internationally, I fear a Hillary presidency more. Despite your bullshit claim that Hillary isn't a warmonger, we have decades of evidence proving otherwise. She loves war. She laughs gleefully at the executions of deposed leaders. She names a genocide-loving sociopath as a friend and mentor. She is stuck in a cold war, Russia is our enemy mentality. She calls our soldiers pawns, and says she views the world as a chessboard match against Russia. She calls the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians by our military a "business opportunity." She is a sociopathic fuck who shouldn't be allowed near any position of power. I trust Trump with a nuclear arsenal far more than I trust that bitch.
Personally, I say grow a fucking spine and don't vote for either of these disasters. You have a better third option in the Green Party. You may not think it's possible to get a third party candidate elected, but most of the people currently supporting Clinton or Trump are only doing so because they hate the other person more. Give them a third choice, they will vote for that third choice. You just have to be willing to do some of the work to show them they have a better option.
You put your finger on the most important thing:
Trump's and Hillary's comparative ability to accomplish their goals. As we have seen, the entire Democratic Party marches in lockstep in whatever direction Hillary commands. Those puppets, plus right wing Republicans, will create a coalition that will enable her to "get stuff done" that will destroy what's left of the middle class and embroil us in countless wars. Trump, on the other hand, will face an uphill battle to accomplish anything he tries to do - and I'm not even convinced he wants to do anything in particular. He just wants to be President.
Jesus. What a choice. A sociopath and a narcissist.
Twain Disciple
Two grifters, off to rule the world...........
Exactly.
I really don't want a Trump presidency, but the idea of a Hillary presidency fills me with genuine fear.
Good point about HRC's potential to do more damage
Trump will have more natural opposition in Congress, so I see your point there. Thank you.
GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."
Comparing Clinton to Trump
For the most part I can't find explicit policy statements from Trump. The most disturbing policy is that he is a climate denier. Other than that, we have to infer what he would do. On civil rights he actually has a good personal record, better than Hillary, though he makes inflammatory statements.
I have listened to his stump speeches online and some of interviews. I really can't find any objectionable stands on issues, except the environment. He wants to deport illegal aliens and not allow ME Muslims to enter the US. This is really a mainstream position, although we see this differently as Progressives, I think that our position is a minority one. We created radical terrorism by our actions in the ME and now we fund them. Who's equipment are ISIS, AQ and other radical terrorists using? US made, US paid through Saudi and Turkey. Now what do we do about the displaced people? Some of them are terrorists. How can we tell? We have created an impossible situation. Bush, Cheney, Rice, Obama, Clinton(s) are the culprits. Bush said that they hate us because of our freedoms. Bullshit! They hate us because we kill their people and defile their religion. Watch this campaign race because we are going to see a lot of issues like this, where the Progressive perspective runs contrary to popular opinion and Trump is going to appeal to the people.
Remember how Trump eviscerated mainstream, reputable Republican candidates. None of them had the baggage that Clinton has. He has already stated that he can't wait to debate (eviscerate) Clinton. It will stick; Clinton is defenceless since their is much truth in her closet that is negative. Will the public feel that Trump has gone overboard, that it is not fair? Judging by past performance, I would say not. "Crooked Hillary is the worst Secretary of state in history", and watch him make it stick. Bad judgement and warmongering will easily counter her claim of experience. "Remember the commercials, it's three AM and the phone rings. Well it was 3 AM and the phone rang from Bengazi and Hillary went back to sleep." Hillary's response possibly: I've been vetted on that, or that's unfair. She's done, she's toast, and he will enjoy every minute of it. Don't discount his abilities, he is wicked smart, has street smarts from business and has no inhibitions in telling it like he sees it. This is a nightmare opponent for a person who obfuscates and prevaricates.
He doesn't have specific policy positions, but general goals. Make America great, bring jobs back, stand up for the USA. This resonates with Americans, but is a bit too jingoistic for most of us. The devil is going to be in the details, and we have no idea yet. More than likely when he gets into office he will be more like W but without the Iraq war. In the meanwhile we are done with the Clintons for ever and have to rebuild. At some point the American public will get fed up with President trump just being yet another Republican and will vote in a Democratic Congress. Here's where we have to make the difference relative to the last time this played out. If you remember, we kept our "powder dry". It's became so fucking dry that there was nothing left of it. A really blown opportunity and we know exactly why. This is where the opportunity will happen. By then we need the corporate Democrats to be put out to pasture.
Capitalism has always been the rule of the people by the oligarchs. You only have two choices, eliminate them or restrict their power.
Trump has said having our military all over is stupid
and counterproductive. Our country gains nothing from it. He's suggested pulling us out of NATO. He's said he wants to negotiate with Putin - his self-image is involved in being a good negotiator.
Hillary, on the other hand, never heard of a military aggression she didn't like.
Now that Hillary has crowned herself, the GOP is suddenly criticizing their own candidate. The MIC, their owners, can't have a candidate who doesn't want to bomb everyone.
Yes, he has many bad qualities, too. But avoiding WWIII is a biggie.
It's been interesting to watch them turning on him already
and watching the people I know who actually support him dig their heels in deeper because "the media is full of shit and wants to get him out of the race".
Now, why they didn't get this when those same dogs did the same shit to Sanders, but whatever--if The Media starts turning on Trump, that shit is going to backfire. You think we're determined about Sanders? If you ever wondered about Trump supporters' resolve, do yourself a favor and go find you one to talk to...they'll tell you how much they've got.
I agree wholeheartedly, luna.
Rebellion will ensue from those Herr Drumpf supporters if he is knocked down or out or both. They will not go quietly.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Yeah, well
that's a real scary thought, too....
No doubt. eom
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
I so hope they just disappear
back into the woodwork. A vain hope, I'm afraid.
Still, their very vocal support of Trum - er, Drum - screw it! Their very vocal support of that idiot has brought this underbelly of our society to national attention. If we can say yes as a people to gay marriage and trans rights, we can say no to this unabashed racism and bigotry.
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
How do you choose between "killing our way of life" with war,
theft of our economy and theft of our Constitutional rights--and "racism and bigotry"?
Because, seriously, I'm not seeing a fucking choice there. At all.
Hate
read, considered, and dismissed.
As much as I hope Trump cannot be elected, I fear a Clinton Presidency more. She has greased the wheels of her corrupt machine for a long time, has a lot of politicians dangling over the fire, and will be able to accomplish terrible actions against those who have the temerity to fight the oligarchy. Trump is simply a big mouthed buffoon that will be stopped at every turn by the existing wheels of democracy... regardless of how much of a wreck the train is.
I'm not buying it. Any of it.
You really think that Hillary would not send the police that her husband militarized out into the street to stomp dissent? There is a reason today's cops look like an invading military force. As an American, I am infuriated that Hillary has sold our country to the highest bidders. As a liberal, I am infuriated at the insults Hillary and her shills have flung at me through this primary. When Hillary insults me and everything I believe in, calls me a sexist and a racist who wants "free stuff" and who wants to take poor people's healthcare (those two lies aren't even compatible) I take it personally. I will never vote for her. Never.
Twain Disciple
Most people just want decent jobs...
And Democrats aren't interested in providing an atmosphere in this country where that is even possible anymore.
Jobs problem? What jobs problem?
Everything is fine. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Decent jobs with a living wage.
That's the issue these days - wages are low, not livable. She'll never change that.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
Obama says everything is fine
It isn't. (Edit)
Obama has a legacy to lie about, just like Bush II did.
Recovery- Non Recovery.
Prosecution of those who lied us into war? Off the table.
Single Payer - Off the Table.
Prosecution of those who caused the financial collapse - Off the table.
Actually leading and standing up to Republicans - well that was off the table too.
And the reason it was all off the table is because both parties work together AGAINST the AMERICAN PEOPLE. They have no true desire to serve 'the people'. The people they serve are the business and wealth classes, and of course, themselves.
They won't hold themselves/each other accountable and they scoff t checks and balances. the only check they do not rail against is one that can be expensed tot he People's Debt tot he benefit of their masters.
This country is dead and over.
-----
Elizabeth Warren To Endorse Hillary Clinton: Report
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-hillary-clinton-end...
I think your second point is most cogent.
Those who think that a Trump victory will lead to a big backlash apparently have ignored U.S. history since Reagan. Stalinist and Baathist Republicans are deeply entrenched in U.S. power structures, and they're not going anywhere without some serious battles.
Even so, and even though my screen name is an acronym for my long-time policy, I am considering voting for Jill Stein - as a strategic move. Not as a protest against the Democratic Party, but as a protest against all parties, and the plurality victories which are used to force feed the electorate a continued binary dictatorship of the elite.
The problem is that Trump is the "alternative candidate."
And Clinton is the mainstream candidate.
Just as a side-note: we don't need to ignore American history since Reagan to understand that this isn't 1980 or 1984. We have in Bernie Sanders a far better representative of what needs to be done than Carter, Ted Kennedy, Mondale, Hart(pence), or Jesse Jackson. Hopefully the political revolution will continue.
The ruling classes need an extra party to make the rest of us feel as if we participate in democracy. That's what the Democrats are for. They make the US more durable than the Soviet Union was.
What in
the name of the flying spaghetti monster is a "Baathist Republican"?
Serious question.
;^)
Sorry I can't give you a serious answer. I thought "Stalinist Republican" didn't work for the TPers, and that just popped into my head. Not all such flashes qualify as brilliant.
P.S. I'm assuming you're aware of the Baath Party. Too bad it's not a better parallel.
I can't believe
that you didn't capitalize THE NAME. It's Flying Spaghetti Monster, damnit!
You shall be touched by his noodly appendage, forced to wear pirate gear for a month, and, worse yet: You must write "Ramen" on the blackboard 100,000 times.
Get crackin', missy!
(please forgive the missy - it was just appropriate to the comment!)
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
I'm always okay with that until they get to the words
"noodly appendages". And then I'm all like "do noodly-appendaged gods even deserve capitalization"??
HRC is a warmonger, I'm not
HRC is a warmonger, I'm not sure where you get that from. Iraq, Libya, etc., etc. The end result of either is going to be the country in shambles and a lot of our kids dead from 'fighting for the cause.'
HRC continues trying to push the feckless Obama agenda that's bounced off Republican-controlled congress like a racquetball for almost a decade now, the only thing they'll go along with is invading to stop ISIS and AQAP and Boko Haram and god knows who else. At some point this goes too far and we wind up facing down Putin in a non-diplomatic fashion, because someone's buying all those decommissioned Soviet arms. And nukes.
Trump abandons NATO and Russia invades its former SSRs, Europe is left to fight against them until we have no choice just like in 1941. Canada, overrun with Americans in such numbers not seen since the sixties, is forced to militarize the border.
North Korea, seeing America is very distracted, decides to do more than test a nuke on the ocean, and whether it works or not China is now stuck between its biggest trading partner and its most annoying ally, but wars aren't good for trade. We're a bit pissed China let them drop a nuke on Seattle so we go after them. Just like in 1941. Unfortunately, between North Korea, China, and Russia, we're seriously outnumbered and all the technology we have isn't going to make a dent.
Militias across the US see an opportunity and take it, and this time there's no National Guard left to stop them.
It's just a question of who uses a tac nuke first.
Ah, OK, so we're just emotional
today, got it. Sore losers? Would that be the point of that remark?
Yes, emotions are high today, some of us are majorly disturbed at watching what semblance of Democracy this country still operates under destroyed by a fucking DEMOCRAT. Screw this, we'd be better served by not voting at all. How nice for you that you have a choice, but would advocate that the rest of us legitimize one more corrupt "Dem" by voting for it. And please with that SCOTUS "argument" - you think that woman wont put one more neo-liberal shill in there? Sure, you'll save gay marriage and perhaps abortion, but nothing will be done about this planet or this country. Bad timing indeed.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
And it is not "hate" to point out the
corruption of Shillary, so really, take that mess back to the other place if that's your excuse for some of us knowing damned well better than to vote for our own destruction, willingly and happily, because she's a "democrat." That word in your title is uncalled for, period.
Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur
You should keep this bullshit in the
Sewer it came from, dailykos.
Don't bring your trolley here.
#BernieOrBust
Thats not a slogan.
You should keep this bullshit in the
Sewer it came from, dailykos.
Don't bring your trollery here.
#BernieOrBust
Thats not a slogan.
GradySeasons
has the site-granted right to post whatever they want. Quite frankly, it is you who sound like the troll. Let Grady have their say. Then - if you actually have a rebuttal besides BS slander - do so.
Otherwise, you sound just like the shitheads over there, with their Clinto or Nothing crap.
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
I would like to ask,
why are you ignoring her war crimes? Why are you ignoring the FACT that Clinton is a murderer? Because that is what you're doing. You appear to not understand the Libya war and what her role in it was (not to mention Obama's). Are you willing to evaluate real, accurate information about the Libya war? Have you even seen her own emails that clearly indict her own warmonger self?
If you vote for Clinton you are voting for a de factor war criminal that has committed crimes against humanity including the intentional murder of hundreds of thousands of people.
It's really that simple.
No. Stop. Just. Stop.
Like many, I've no intention of voting for Trump. A vote for Trump is an entirely different thing than not voting for $hillary.
However... can we just stop trying to put lipstick on the Clinton pig?
She's not getting my goddamn vote and i'm sure i'm not the only one. And i'm sure i'm not the only one who is tired of the "unity" bullshit. Iraq2.0 is enough reason for me to not vote for Hillary and I'm sure others have their own lines in the sand that have been crossed.
This "unity" bullshit is why we get crap candidates to begin with. We progressives decide to be reasonable and pragramatic and then let time dull the passion. Teabaggers were successful (politically) b/c they stuck to their guns. Its time for progressives to do that as well.
Like most Bernie supporters, I'll not vote for a fucktard like Trump. But at least the damage that buffon does will be obvious and apparent. Besides Hillary's corruption being a more insidious kind of long-term corrosiveness, she thinks she knows what she's doing when her actual track record is pretty shitty.
No, I'm not going to fucking vote for Clinton and the whiny calls for "unity" behind the lesser-of-two-evils candidate ignore both a) the why of Sanders supporters' passion and b) the Clinton campaign's behavior.
Prior to the primary, though I wouldn't have voted for Clinton, i probably would've donated time/resources or at least stuck up for her in checkout lines, doctor's offices, wherever... However, after the behavior of her campaign this primary season, Fuck. That. Shit. $hillary and the Clinton campaign have shredded ANY fucking goodwill i had for them in '15.
Fuck. Hillary.
Break the glass ceiling
With Jill Stein
Beware the bullshit factories.
Support Hillary?
My Dear,
If I wanted to vote for a Bush, I'd support Republicans. Not in any lifetime.
Essus
Hillary has not given the slightest indication
That she will address that fact that our campaign finance system is broken and our election system is rigged. Nothing else matters compared to that. Donate to Jill Stein.
Beware the bullshit factories.
Heh.
JOIN THE GREAT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BOYCOTT OF 2016!
No
I will not become a member of the great unwashed. If you really want to have your views noticed, then you need to actually vote. If/when that changes, fine.
But right now, I am not casting my opinion into the void, never to be known.
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
Um, that's not the point, to do it silently.
But ya, I know the audience here is primarily partisan or long time partisan which makes a boycott illogical. I've heard it all before.
Although the re-registration effort is basically a boycott anyway.
And what if I voted for Trump, would that be better than "not having my views noticed"?
I am not at all partisan
I completely reject the options given to me by both parties.
However, the re-registration is something that will be counted. It will be noticed. Not voting counts for nothing at all.
Should you vote for Trump, you're just "Dumfph!"
The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.
better??
You've got to be joking??!! Really? Clinton is far more insidious, dangerous, ill-tempered, and spiteful than even Trump. Both are equal to the old farmer saying...10 pounds of shit in a 5# bag. Hillary has the possibility of being a two termer, where Trump will be voted out in one, primaried by his own party. Hillary has the corruption, the heavy hand of many calculated years, deals, scam, and political payments and favors to propel her catastrophe over the American populous for far too long. The question is do we want a fox (Trump )in charge of the White (Hen) House, or a skunk and a weasel that are hiding under the floor til after dark, to suck the life from the remaining eggs, and cut the throats of the innocent left sleeping on an allegedly safe roost.
Of course Hillary would be a better president than trump.
But she can't get elected running against him.
Life is strong. I'm weak, but Life is strong.
Thanks for the essay but disagree
I can not and will not support Clinton because she truly represents what is wrong with our country- executives lying to your face when they need something, taking money from other powers to enrich themselves, stepping on others to enrich themselves, speaking in polished terms to justify their own agenda, working the system to enrich the establishment- the good old boys & girls system. To me Clinton is part of the problem- the elite and establishment will do anything to keep their power. She does not give a shit about us.
I will not vote for Trump, but at least I know where he stands on the issues, with Hillary she is two faced and will lie to our faces and stab us in the back to advance her own interests.
With the pending recession coming and the likelihood of congress being controlled by Republicans (due to voter suppression (ID/vote rolls purging)and gerrymandering- nothing and I mean nothing will be passed. Therefore, she will be a one term president and maybe one of the worse president in history due to this inaction and the economy tanking (due to soft recovery and nothing left to squeeze out of us).
No more will I vote for an empty suit- ie. Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, I want a leader (someone that gives a shit and fight for the betterment of the entire society not just the elite).
GradySeasons: Please start a Part 2 of this post. 230+ comments
is simply too difficult for those
of us on phones and other mobile
devices to follow.
Thanks!
Only connect. - E.M. Forster
With appropriate apology
"If I sit silently, I have sinned." - Mossadegh
Heh :)
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