Why HRC is Better Than Trump

UPDATE 2:06 PM PST
Well, that escalated quickly. To sum up my comments.
1. I am truly sorry for the timing of this diary. Yuuge mistake.
2. Sorry for using words that, due to my ignorance, I did not realize were triggers: "hate, purity, emotional, cookie" these have been marked as the sure sign of trollism, and I am sorry I let such words further undermine already very unpopular opinion.
3. To those I pissed off, or set off their troll alarms - I hate to grovel, but I am not above asking you to please forgive my shoddy timing and word choice, and not let this diary define my presence here. I have learned a lot here, and felt welcomed, and been thrilled to have a new place to go after leaving TOP. A troll I am not, and will never be. Hopefully, I haven't created a situation where I just get dismissed out of hand, but if so I guess I brought it on myself.

UPDATE 5:26 AM:
Thank you all for commenting. As usual, I learned a lot from the discussion. There were some not thrilled, and I get it. My timing was for shit, first and foremost. And I want you to know there tonight for Bernie's speech.
twitter.com/SqueakBaxter/status/740439072502652939
It is an emotional time. We all have to deal in our own way. Mine is to convince everybody to do something I already know they don't want to do, at the worst possible time, when I myself get to vote for Jill Stein because I am in Cali. I think editorial discretion is the lesson here. But to those who read and commented, thank you, and I hope you didn't get too pissed off.

First, this is not the best time for this, but it was a comment I left on a previous diary and I thought it was substantial enough to make it's own, so here it is.

I know this lesser of two evils argument is hated around here, and rightfully so. But I still feel I can make the case that if the #PoliticalRevolution can ONLY have Clinton or Trump this year, and Bernie does not go independent, that it IS MUCH better for the Movement to have a President Clinton than a President Trump. I will never tell anyone they SHOULD vote for HRC, especially if they view their vote as a pure expression of their beliefs. And I respect #BernieOrBust to the utmost. However, personally, and this is just me (he said putting up his hands like Vince Vaughn might) , I look at a vote as a strategic choice. Strategically, IMHO, it is MUCH better to have Clinton. Here is why.

1. The Supreme Court-This is obviously the heart of most lesser of two evils arguments, which makes it a hated device amongst the left, which it should be. The thing is, we hate it because it works, and it works because it has to. Anybody who understands politics understands that the Court is key because of it's power, but also because bad picks last a lifetime, and they do damage. If you don't understand what Scalia, Rheinquist, et al, along with the Federalist Society have done to this country, then you probably won't buy this argument. But if you know, then you really know. That damage is not so easily undone.

2. Power begets power. Anybody living in a red state will tell you that as soon as the GOP gets any real power they start fucking shit up right away, Flint style, Scott Walker Style, Kansas Tax Cut style, Texas Abortion Style, etc. But also, through politicizing of every sector of government, and downright using their positions of authority to straight up cheat, the GOP finds ways to get MORE power and make it MUCH harder for the Movement to gain traction.
Right now, the GOP has the House, Senate, states, and half the court. Trump is no run of the mill Republican, but HE WILL DO WHAT THEY WANT except on pet issues. And protecting rights and NOT expanding power exponentially is not one of his pet issues. GOP full control is a scary thing. The Iraq War, and a lot of other bad shit, happened the last time that was the case. With so many GOP held offices around the country, HRC would be a bit of a countervailing force.

3. My most original argument:
If Trump is President, WE FIGHT HIM. BUT,
there will be violent youth riots in reaction to racist policies, which will bring a police crackdown and suburban backlash. This is the WORST thing that could happen to the left.

If Clinton is President, WE FIGHT HER. BUT,
the youth will protest injustices of all kinds, instead of riot, and we will organize and pressure Dems-THAT IS MUCH MORE PLEASANT

4. National Security
This one is a tough call. But Trump IS erratic, unstable, unfit, and his party is filled with belligerent jerks who could easily bully him into action. I think there is little chance of us committing non-Special Forces ground troops anywhere under either Trump or HRC, due to $$ and war fatigue in both parties, but Trump is an embarrassing and dangerous nightmare on the world stage.

HRC is not a warmonger, but she is FULL ON MIC. Cheney was a warmonger. HRC, Biden, and Kerry were cowards in their Iraq vote. They wanted tough-guy credibility. Kerry felt he got burned when he voted against Gulf War 1, and it "went well," so he was a yes. HRC wanted to be a post 9-11 President. She has no conscience. But warmonger? No.
The weapons deals to the middle east? Yes they are terrible, but this IS US policy right now. Why? First, unfortunately exports are good for the economy even when they are machines of death. Second, and more importantly, we are selling them shitloads of arms to fight in their regional conflicts, because we are telling them that WE won't do for them what we used to, militarily, with our forces. And that is actually good.

So basically, if it's Trump or Clinton, we must FIGHT them tooth and nail. Strategically, and to mitigate a new level of race-baiting, I would rather FIGHT Clinton.

So there you have my well-reasoned yet certainly unpopular opinion. As I say, thank you for reading and commenting if you like. And as always, I wish I could give you a cookie. But, as always, this thing just doesn't work like that.

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is the shittiest of the shittiest.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

Thumb's picture

$$Hillary voters have made it clear that they're okay with President Trump.

Sorry Hill People, but if you were honestly that afraid of Trump you would have supported Bernie. But you didn't because you're not. So don't try to play the scary bogeyman card on us now.

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"Polls don't tell us how well a candidate is doing; Polls tell us how well the media is doing." ~ Me

a Federalist society type.

i have no reason -- literally, not one bit of historical evidence to believe that Trump's picks will be any worse than HRC's. and insanely, he's more likely than she is to be able to get a non-lunatic through a Republican congress.

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The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.

I'm done with that.

Where was Harry Reid and changing the threshold to 50 plus 1 to get Obama's judges confirmed.

Again it's like the little guys paying more taxes so the elite can prosper. I'm done.

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garbage. Do you just not see at all that is exactly how we got here? Do you not see that is a YUGE part of the reason for Trump's very existence as a candidate? My God, if you're going to be that willfully blind please don't write about it anymore here. Some of us are still in recovery and trying to get our "emotions" under control today, about the last fucking thing we need is more of that lesser evil shit. Hillary is no such thing as the lesser evil, in my mind today, she is THE evil one, period, end of discussion. At least Donald Fucking Trump has some honesty, ugly and stupid as it is, and manipulative as he is. She is a GD snake, a snake with a smiling face who tries so hard to make you not see her fangs right before she sinks them into your jugular. And she's just about to do it, to all of us.

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

are a mistake is when hundreds of thousands are a dead and chaos reigns.

I am begining to think that Trump may blow up before the Republican Party Convention.

The easiest opponent a Democratic Party Nominee has ever faced.

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stevej's picture

if there were no elections Hillary would never think her war votes were mistakes.

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“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.” -Voltaire

thinks her war votes are a mistake are when the polls shows Bernie kicking her ass in that department. She could give a rat's ass about people dying. And I believe you're right. trump looks like he's losing his shit.
BernieOrBust...

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secondary if there at all

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RejectingThe3rdWay's picture

I'm sorry but the only time Hillary thinks her war votes

are a mistake is when public opinion polls tell her it is a mistake

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When I was a kid, Republicans used to red scare people, now it's the Democrats. I am getting too damn old for this crap!

snoopydawg's picture

That Hillary has been in favor of going back to the 80's.

http://www.empireslayer.org/2013/11/hilary-clinton-pro-war-and-imperiali...

The countries she destabilized, Libya, Syria, Ukraine and Honduras. Plus the number of dead civilians in Yemen could be added to her tally because she sold those weapons being used on them to Saudi Arabia Including cluster bombs which she voted against banning.
And I brought that up on TOP every time they went after Bernie for his gun vote.
After Obama's betrayals beginning with the FISA vote and the other things he went back on, it was his increasingly use of drones that made me decide I couldn't vote for his second term.
In my mind that makes me an accountable for his actions. Same with Hillary.
I don't feel comfortable with Bernie's foreign policy either, but he did say that regime changes are stupid.
I'm sure that he voted for many war funding bills during his career, but I liked what he said about the I/P situation.

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

CambridgePulsar1919's picture

You're just wrong.

President $$Hillary's only goal will be to mollify the necessary 51% of morons in order for the moneyed establishment to remain in power.

That's it.

Any positive changes will be minimal, and only serve to support the goal of keeping the scum in power.

Republicans are monsters, Trump is only different in that he says his shit aloud. Once you accept that you begin to understand what this fight against the establishment is all about.

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"Republicans are monsters". To me, that matters. I would NEVER defend HRC on HER merits, on any level.

But I am willing to concede I MAY be "wrong", as you say, because these are tough calls for me. In fact, there is NO RIGHT way to deal with this situation.

This diary reflects my strategic thinking. No MORAL or POSITIVE case could ever be made for a Clinton vote.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Cassiodorus's picture

there is NO RIGHT way to deal with this situation.

Organize, and vote for, another candidate.

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"the Democratic Party is not 'left'." -- Sabrina Salvati

CambridgePulsar1919's picture

As it stands right now, as a person whose state will almost certainly go blue (NY), I plan to vote for Stein.

Of course we all know that a vote for Stein is a vote for Trump Wink

Which forces me to ask; what is a vote for Trump; 2 votes for Trump?

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Hawkfish's picture

Because it changes the. R - D count by 2. That's just arithmetic.

But mathematics is only a tool. It can't tell you what is moral. With that in mind, this former mathematician is trying to get a Stein vote counted.

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We can’t save the world by playing by the rules, because the rules have to be changed.
- Greta Thunberg

The delta is two, but that's quite distinct from the actual value. Or has there been an advance in math by which t = dt is an identity?

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Alphalop's picture

Those that get it and those that don't...

(Can you guess which group I am in? Wink )

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"I used to vote Republican & Democrat, I also used to shit my pants. Eventually I got smart enough to stop doing both things." -Me

lunachickie's picture

and I need to be reassured that my general election vote for her will count.

I hope Sanders' requested meeting with Obama today has to do with getting our election monitored in November. The disenfranchisement is obviously out of control. If this government of the United States of America cannot assure its citizens that ALL their votes count, then our republic is a sham and a con.

I will never, ever vote Clinton. Burn this fucker down, I'm done.

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Stein, and the Green Party for that matter need to clarify their position on mandatory vaccination.
On vaccines:

“I think obviously vaccinations work. Vaccination has worked for many, many years. I am sensitive to the fact that there are some families who disagree but the difficulty is if I have a kid who is suffering from an illness who is subjected to a kid who walks into a room without vaccines that could kill that child and that’s wrong.”
--Bernie Sanders

The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
— Hillary Clinton

I don't know if we have an "official" stance, but I can tell you my personal stance at this point. According to the most recent review of vaccination policies across the globe, mandatory vaccination that doesn't allow for medical exemptions is practically unheard of. In most countries, people trust their regulatory agencies and have very high rates of vaccination through voluntary programs. In the US, however, regulatory agencies are routinely packed with corporate lobbyists and CEOs. So the foxes are guarding the chicken coop as usual in the US. So who wouldn't be skeptical? I think dropping vaccinations rates that can and must be fixed in order to get at the vaccination issue: the widespread distrust of the medical-indsutrial complex. [???]

Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.
--Jill Stein

That is a rambling non-answer, and provides cover for anti-vaxxers.

It is better than

We had so many instances, people that work for me, just the other day, 2 years old, a beautiful child, went to have the vaccine and came back and a week later got a tremendous fever, got very, very sick, now is autistic."
--Donald Trump

But barely.

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Stein, and the Green Party for that matter need to clarify their position on mandatory vaccination.
On vaccines:

“I think obviously vaccinations work. Vaccination has worked for many, many years. I am sensitive to the fact that there are some families who disagree but the difficulty is if I have a kid who is suffering from an illness who is subjected to a kid who walks into a room without vaccines that could kill that child and that’s wrong.”
--Bernie Sanders

Great Answer!

The science is clear: The earth is round, the sky is blue, and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids. #GrandmothersKnowBest
— Hillary Clinton

Even better!

I don't know if we have an "official" stance, but I can tell you my personal stance at this point. According to the most recent review of vaccination policies across the globe, mandatory vaccination that doesn't allow for medical exemptions is practically unheard of. In most countries, people trust their regulatory agencies and have very high rates of vaccination through voluntary programs. In the US, however, regulatory agencies are routinely packed with corporate lobbyists and CEOs. So the foxes are guarding the chicken coop as usual in the US. So who wouldn't be skeptical? I think dropping vaccinations rates that can and must be fixed in order to get at the vaccination issue: the widespread distrust of the medical-indsutrial complex. [???]

Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced. Still, vaccines should be treated like any medical procedure--each one needs to be tested and regulated by parties that do not have a financial interest in them. In an age when industry lobbyists and CEOs are routinely appointed to key regulatory positions through the notorious revolving door, its no wonder many Americans don't trust the FDA to be an unbiased source of sound advice. A Monsanto lobbyists and CEO like Michael Taylor, former high-ranking DEA official, should not decide what food is safe for you to eat. Same goes for vaccines and pharmaceuticals. We need to take the corporate influence out of government so people will trust our health authorities, and the rest of the government for that matter. End the revolving door. Appoint qualified professionals without a financial interest in the product being regulated. Create public funding of elections to stop the buying of elections by corporations and the super-rich.
--Jill Stein

That is a rambling non-answer, and provides cover for anti-vaxxers.

It is better than

We had so many instances, people that work for me, just the other day, 2 years old, a beautiful child, went to have the vaccine and came back and a week later got a tremendous fever, got very, very sick, now is autistic."
--Donald Trump

But barely.

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More mindless identity politics. There are some pretty dumb grandmothers out there. There are even psychopathic grandmothers who are perfectly happy blowing other grandmothers' children away or sending them to Honduras to "send a message."

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Twain Disciple

lunachickie's picture

Really?

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with climate change or that unless we fight the corruption now, these will be the last days of our democracy and freedom. Never mind that Hillary represents all the big profit-over-people industries that our destroying us: medical insurance, pharmaceuticals, Wall Street, prison industry, MIC, fossil fuels - and is thus prevented from taking anything approaching the radical actions that are needed, unlike Jill Stein who has made such actions her central platform.

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Beware the bullshit factories.

Haikukitty's picture

She specifically says:

Vaccines in general have made a huge contribution to public health. Reducing or eliminating devastating diseases like small pox and polio. In Canada, where I happen to have some numbers, hundreds of annual death from measles and whooping cough were eliminated after vaccines were introduced.

Then rightly points out that having corporate CEOs and lobbyists working in our regulatory bodies decreases public trust and leads to things like the vaccine deniers.

You want people to get vaccines? Rebuild public trust.

Not once did she say vaccines don't work or they are bad.

I find that pretty weak sauce compared to the things Hillary and Trump have said about issues like, oh, I don't know - healthcare for all, dropping nuclear bombs and starting wars, building walls or bombing the Middle East. Henry Kissinger... I could go on all day.

But Jill Stein raises a valid issue about our systemic corruption that is eroding public trust in all our institutions and you just can't get down with that?

Of course you should vote for whoever you want, but I sure wish it was for a better reason.

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LapsedLawyer's picture

Bernie, in the primaries.

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"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
-- John Lennon

You wanted to stir shit.
Congratulations c99%, you're better than that.
I love it here.

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'Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years, Doctor, and I’m happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd "

You are wrong. I wanted to share a viewpoint, not start shit.
But I am ALSO wrong, because it seems to NOT have the desired effect. Hence my apology in my update. And it is sincere. Not for my content, but for my timing, and perhaps for the venue.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Raggedy Ann's picture

would be to take "hate" out of your title. Do you get that? Many here have asked you to change that word, yet, there it still is.
Sincerely,
Raggedy Ann.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Raggedy Ann's picture

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Unity is unthinkable.

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Right after I get back from skiing with the Devil in Hell.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

You can spin it in your head to your liking. We all have that capability. Thing is, I'm done. Raggedy Andy is done. We're not voting establishment any longer. America is in decline and the establishment will finish the job. Drumpf or hrc will complete our fate. I will not participate. I will vote third party unless Bernie somehow secures the nomination at the convention.

I understand if you can't bring yourself to do as I do. It can be scary. I'm not afraid anymore. There's not much left they can do to me or take away from me. I'm done.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

"I understand if you can't bring yourself to do as I do"

Thank you...I feel that is the REAL spirit behind my diary, although it is only in the intro.
I just want us as a Movement to respect different opinions on this particular dilemma. I don't think it should be used as some kind of purity test. And I think it's CRAZY for any Democrat to blame Bernie or BernieOrBust if HRC loses. Votes are NEVER owed, only to be earned. And in some cases, people get my vote without earning it. But that is up to ME, not some entitled and bloated political party.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

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Sea Turtle

please dial it back. Personal attacks are against the guidelines.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

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Sea Turtle

If you have a concern regarding the integrity of any poster, you should submit it for moderation. I assure you it will be looked at and all appropriate action taken. JtC watches this place closely. Trolls don't live long. Please just stay above the fray by not getting personal. Attack the argument, not the person.

I agree that the timing of this post is bad. If this person is trolling, good luck with that. There isn't a chance in hell that he'll convince anyone here to vote for Hillary that isn't already so inclined.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

No reason a 1% politician should be advocated for on a 99% caucus site.

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It is a strategy that the writer speaks to... One that many of us fell into for many years. Maybe an open conversation on how ridiculous it has proven to be will earn converts.

From the dreaded meta....

This site is a non-partisan site. It does not endorse any candidate. This site is issues-oriented and is about the interests of the 99%.

There are people here who support a number of different candidates and there are even some who think that participation in the elections is a total waste of time and effort. Those views are all welcome here.

We have a diversity of opinion and we like it that way. What we are working toward is agreement and action on the 99%'s agenda - not which candidate wins the swimsuit competition. Whichever candidate sweeps the pageant, there will need to be considerable activism to compel them to act in the interests of the 99%. That is what we must prepare for even while we discuss the relative merits and disastrous horrors presented by the various candidates on parade.

A focus on the issues will allow us to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Meanwhile, informed, polite discussion of candidates and issues is welcome here.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

lunachickie's picture

how anyone even tries to "troll" here. It seems kind of futile, for those expecting a particular result Wink

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I wouldn't try to advocate this here, but then, we don't want c99 to be an echo chamber. It is a non-partisan site. It doesn't endorse any candidate. The lesser of evils is something we could never discuss on top without a horrible fight. It is nice to be able to freely say when pigs fly. Who knows, maybe we'll get another convert and Hillary will lose a vote.

It is important that we don't get personal or brawl with one another in comments. The last thing I personally want is an environment like top.

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"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

lunachickie's picture

It is important that we don't get personal or brawl with one another in comments. The last thing I personally want is an environment like top.

And there are plenty of ways to say "someone's a troll" without even coming right out and saying it.

"Starting shit" is not the problem--it's "responding to the shit with bigger shit" that gets you every time. If I wanted to think of this post as "starting shit", that's my prerogative. I'm not gonna say that out loud, but I might think it.

Even if I didn't or don't, here's the thing--if enough civilized people post reasons why said "shit" was futile to begin with, there will be no further shit. Every single time.

No, really! Biggrin

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Posting this diary was clearly a mistake. But we all make them. Ultimately, I don't want my voice here to be disregarded, which is why I wish I hadn't posted. But intellectually, I still stand by my opinion. I am NOT trying to bully or shame anybody like trolls will do. And if you check my twitter, twitter.com/SqueakBaxter - u will see I am a Berner through and through. And I (now) know better than to express these nuanced opinions on Twitter, but I didn't think I would piss people off by posting here, just generate discussion. But, especially because of the timing, I was wrong.

Try not to let this diary define my entire political resume, if possible. Thanks.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

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sorry, but I really, really resent the "hate" remarks. I am a 54 year old female, and I resent like hell all that talk of Hillary Haters. IF your point was honest discussion and debate, that word was not necessary. That word makes a LOT of us think paid troll. And really, if you can't see that by now, then why are you here?

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Only a fool lets someone else tell him who his enemy is. Assata Shakur

The title alone had me ignoring this 'essay' until I saw some of the sidebar comments.

It is used to put anyone responding on the defensive and is a a method for anyone using said accusation to short fuse a discussion by 'claiming victory' just by the accusation alone.

It is dismissive, diminutive, and very often used by trolls and hacks in order to gain some sort of high ground. And given the horrible candidate that Clinton is, her supporters are most desperate to begin with some high ground since they usually can only present reasons to vote against Trump based in the fear that he will be worse than her.

I've yet to see a reason to vote for a lying, obviously corrupt, two-faced hypocrite who'll just do as she pleases if/when she takes office.

Promises? HAHAHAHA - she'll have evolved again by the time keeping promises comes around. The word will make her laugh at those who thought she would actually keep them too.

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snoopydawg's picture

image_86.jpeg

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Which AIPAC/MIC/pharma/bank bought politician are you going to vote for? Don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

Just like the "cookie" comment, I has no idea the "hate" comment was so loaded. Thank you for informing me, and I'm sorry for being a little late to the party on some of this stuff. I am going to change the title, but it may be too late to have the desired effect.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

Raggedy Ann's picture

Make the effort. Change the title. You'll be glad you did.

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

a feeling of admiring someone or something that is good, valuable, important, etc.

: a feeling or understanding that someone or something is important, serious, etc., and should be treated in an appropriate way

synonyms: esteem · regard · high opinion · admiration · reverence ·deference · honor

Being polite, or giving a basic amount of civility is one thing. Being tolerant of others view points is one thing. But when I hear requests and demands for respect, my first reaction is - does this person, group, thing, event - has it earned respect - is it worthy of respect?

I don't see the value in Clinton. I see nothing to admire. I do not see a good person. Look at those synonyms. I don't associate those words with Clinton.

I just want us as a Movement to respect different opinions on this particular dilemma.

So no. The movement may listen, and provide a degree of civility and tolerance in considering other opinions, but no one, no opinion, no thing, people, group, event, etc. is worthy of respect for the sake of simply existing/being.

Dick Cheney
George Bush
Patriot Act
NAFTA
Repeal of Glass-Steagall

Are these things worthy of 'respect' simply because they are who or what they are as a person, or an occurrence? No, they are not.

So an alternative OPINION does not have to be shown respect if it is not worthy of such respect. That's a lesson the Democratic Party has taught many people. Fall in line, Unify, this is your candidate whether you like it or not. Now just simply like and respect her because you were told to, because - well - you have to.

Respect is earned, not bestowed.

We need a new word for being respectful to others without the idea that we owe them respect. Civil, polite tolerance used to be a real thing, but people whine today that tolerance is not enough and they demand respect.

Again: Respect is earned, not bestowed.

Look at those synonyms again. I owe no one respect unless they have earned it. And if they lose that respect, I definitely don't owe them further consideration - you know, like proven liars, security risks, and two faced candidates who will say anything to anyone to get elected and then do as they choose once in office.

Demands for Respect? Just no.

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"I understand if you can't bring yourself to do as I do"

Thank you...I feel that is the REAL spirit behind my diary, although it is only in the intro.
I just want us as a Movement to respect different opinions on this particular dilemma. I don't think it should be used as some kind of purity test. And I think it's CRAZY for any Democrat to blame Bernie or BernieOrBust if HRC loses. Votes are NEVER owed, only to be earned. And in some cases, people get my vote without earning it. But that is up to ME, not some entitled and bloated political party.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

shaharazade's picture

you talking about? I doubt if we even have common ground about what a movement consists of. I also do not like being told The Mad Bomber is not a war monger. Good lord the woman who cackled like psycho about killing Kadafi. 'We came we saw we killed?' Your whole essay reads like the talking points sheet straight from the party Royalists. Ask me your fishing in the wrong hole for unity and using some really stale bait. So if you think the Democratic party is entitled and bloated why would that make anyone here decide to vote for the most entitled, bloated, crook of a candidate I have ever come across.

Well founded fear of the Clinton machine and the Third Way Democratic, trumps my fear of The Hairball. Do the right thing and do not vote for the evil regardless of whether or not it fly's under the Democratic party's brand of lesser. I somehow do not quite believe that you really are interested in this site or this community. Your essay reminds me of the fake put up job's at dkos that say 'I was for Bernie until....' May not be trolling but it's nothing that will help this site grow or any of us learn.

I know RW Democratic talking points when I read them and god knows I've spent 10 reading them. Enough is enough. Maybe a little Glenn Greenwald will help you to grow left. Why give cc99% member's a lecture on respect while preaching the gospel the fear the right. Gimmie a break your insulting my intelligence with these 'centrist' talking points. That are nothing but double speak lies and fear. I will never vote for the Clinton's or any other Third Way corrupt Dem.

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/07/perfect-end-to-democratic-primary-an...

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I didn't vote for Bill Clinton either time he ran - I voted for Perot because he was the only candidate that realized what NAFTA would do to this country - as well as the problems it has caused in Mexico and Canada. The Clintons are a political mafia, imo. I can't support that. Hoping that Comey will finish his investigation (understand that he now has opened yet another investigation but has declined to say what it is about) before the convention - or at least allow a few more leaks... Also there is a lawsuit that is to be filed (I think) on Thursday by True The Vote to address the election fraud/suppression that took place during this primary. I'm not giving up on Bernie Sanders or his/our political revolution. And I will never - NEVER - vote Hillary.

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Raggedy Ann's picture

for hrc. We must not be afraid. Look where fear has brought us. I can't take it anymore and won't. I believe there is more going on behind the scenes that we are privy to, otherwise I think Bernie might be hinting he's dropping out. I will hang with Bernie to the end. If he is not on the November ballot, there will be many more to choose from in my state. Who knows - if Herr Drumpf implodes before his convention, they might replace him, which will stir rebellion among those that voted for him - make no mistake about that because we know the type of people supporting him.

In any event, Bernie or bust. I will never vote for hrc - NEVER!

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"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11

RDSVermont's picture

this post belong on TOP?

Sorry, but I'm not buying this HRC bull shit. In my mind, there appears to be zero historical evidence that HRC would be much "better" than anyone else.

It's time to write-in Bernie or vote another party. Please do not endorse HRC!

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Our village and town are so small that we don't have a village idiot or a town drunk. Nope, we all take turns.

lotlizard's picture

The essayist’s figure of speech whereby the many well-reasoned arguments here why Hillary isn’t any lesser an evil are equated to “hate” — yes, that grates on me too, but there’s no one correct political line on c99p. That remains true even if a preponderance of c99ers may have chosen the Bernie camp at this moment in time.

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Thank you.

I REALLY want a diary like this to be welcome here, because if we can't share ideas, then we can't grow. I have been one of the more "centrist" voices I have encountered on this blog. But I also have BEEN MOVED LEFT by persuasive arguments here. I am not on a team, I want to do what's right. Hopefully, with my qualifying language, and willingness to engage opposite opinion, you will see that I in no way resemble shills at the TOP.

And I don't need to be right. I need to figure out what I think is right, and do that. And if I think I have a sound take, I need to share it and get great feedback like in these comments. And if this place works properly, we can all learn a lot here, and grow.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

TheOtherMaven's picture

that arsenic is better than strychnine. Maybe arsenic has a larger Lethal Dose, but they're both poison.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

elenacarlena's picture

I think this is premature, but come on. Let's not say "Bernie or go to TOP". That's just like them saying "Hillary or get out of here". You want an echo chamber or discussion?

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

Thank you

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

elenacarlena's picture

But good luck!

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Please check out Pet Vet Help, consider joining us to help pets, and follow me @ElenaCarlena on Twitter! Thank you.

I am a STRONG Bernie supporter,, more than $1200 into our campaign.

I despise HRC. I loathe Trump and the GOP.

I care about the planet. Trump is a climate denier. His Admin would do much more harm to the planet than a HRC. It would be easier to recover from a HRC admin than from a Trump/GOP admin. Esp, if we start to "primary" her from Inauguration Day on. THe GOP could change laws that would take decades to recover from. We don't have that time.

Also, Rightist on the Supreme Court could really screw up things way worse than a HRC appointee.

Some of us live in solid Blue states and have an easy decision ahead. I live in a swing state so my vote will matter. I will see.

If this site turns into a pro-Trump site, I am outta here and disgusted and discouraged.

Even Noam Chomsky, forchissakes, is for The Lesser Evil. Shall we throw him under the bus? Along with Thom Hartman like I read on the site yesterday?

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I am outta here and disgusted and discouraged.

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Haikukitty's picture

You can see from the comment thread that no such thing is the case.

But I appreciate people being able to make their case, and I appreciate the opportunity to try to convince them otherwise.

We can't convince people if we don't allow them to speak. And also, we ultimately don't have the right to make other people's decisions.

It's obvious that the bulk of the responses are not pro-HRC. But the reason I left TOP was because I couldn't speak without being attacked. I don't want us to become that here.

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I left GOS for the same circumstances.
I love the civility and the Resilience essays and the humor and the cleverness here.
But if guilt trips to unity are the way of the future, I will not stay.

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Haikukitty's picture

I think a vote for Hillary is a vote any true progressive will end up feeling guilty about, even if they don't feel guilty about it now.

She is everything wrong with the current Democratic party rolled up into one uninspiring, corrupt package.

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lunachickie's picture

it is understood that our resolve is strong, therefore there will be people who try to convince us otherwise, in many different ways.

Guilt trips will be one way.

if guilt trips to unity are the way of the future, I will not stay.

They're only "the way of the future" for anyone who gets that shit to work.

I've got news for anyone who believes it will around here--the Bozo Bus is back thataway (jerks thumb to the rear). So don't let 'em get to you, just show them the way to the bus.

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Also the loss of national sovereignty of any kind to multinational corporations' "anticipated profits." Hillary will support it, Trump opposes it, whatever he says he thinks about climate change.

And that's if our Mad Bomber doesn't quickly start WWIII, continuing her very consistent warmongering. Then we're done sooner.

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Haikukitty's picture

Hillary helped create it. Never Hillary.

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Anja Geitz's picture

I know that it negates our right to sue for damages, but is there also a connection to Big Energy?

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There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier

Haikukitty's picture

for implementing green energy business or creating local markets - anything that might impact a corporations profits in a negative way.

Under existing trade laws - it has already happened in Ontario, Canada. They tried to build clean energy and local jobs by requiring that their green energy companies which they were helping to grow were locally based. One man moved to Canada in order to qualify and started his company there. The municipality or city (I can't recall which) were sued by China since China would lose business since they were not a local company and could not supply the solar panels.

Here is a new challenge now: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-a...

It takes away the sovereignty of local communities to act in their own best interests. It is an absolute nightmare for clean energy and local economic initiatives.

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cannot credibly claim to care about the environment, our civil liberties (SCOTUS is going to be looking at more than abortion--there is domestic surveillance, drug issues, and a host of other things outside of that one issue, and all of which Hillary is at least as conservative as any Republican on), a more peaceful foreign policy, or robust and just domestic economic programs.

This isn't about purity, it's about actual evidence. I don't appreciate the accusations of purity. They're clumsy and intellectually bankrupt. Kindly stop.

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darkmatter's picture

And actually I don't care about what you personally feel either.

You said you would pull the lever for her. That is literally all the modern Democratic party has ever asked of you. They see you stamping your feet and then falling into line because of the same rickety arguments year after year after year, as they sell your future and the future of your children (if you have any) away. They likely laugh at behavior like that, really, because it's too self-effacing and self-destructive to be taken seriously. Politics is hardball, and "I despise you but I'll vote for you" ain't hardball.

I hope your job is not outsourceable to Malaysia, and that you don't have friends in active military service. You want to stroll in here calling everyone purists? Guess what, of all the things most like Daily Kos in this thread, your snide guiltmongering is it. You even use the approved DK vocabulary: "under the bus," "echo chamber," "purist."

And really, "pro-Trump"? That's truly disingenuous. There may be some who are considering the idea of voting Trump as the maximum block against the broken Democratic party, but no one is arguing for Trump on the merits.

Finally, if Trump proposes the grand bargain to cut/privatize Social Security, the Dems will (I think) fight him. If Hillary proposes the grand bargain (as Bill wanted to, as Obama wanted to), what?

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Now I see that my uses of "cookie" "hate" and "purity" have all been loaded words for people. Once again, thank you for helping me learn.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

I'll leave the triggering to those who feel the need for their 'safe spaces' - the poor put upon stressed out folk that they are.
(safe spaces: places where people can pony up their views and not be called out for their bullshit or reasonably discussed with because they might be 'triggered')

Maybe you should add the word trigger to your list.

And be thankful we're not a site where a bunch of triggered people are whining about being triggered because someone said something that gave them sad uncomfortable feelz.

Ugh.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

lunachickie's picture

in response to this:

Wow-my apology needs an apology? Ok, it's on the list too now!!

is in the quote of that which you replied to--Vayle's sig-line:

You can not be shamed by someone you do not respect.

Anybody that's paying attention to the response you're getting here better learn that real quick. To the vast, vast majority of posters here, there is just no good argument for that woman or that Party she belongs to. Not one.

You know what really sucks? She's a woman and she takes her uterus for granted. I can't even depend on her to keep the fundies' ugly hands off Roe v. Wade. To see Planned Parenthood's "leadership" endorse her--one of them being the daughter of Ann Richards, who has surely spun all the way to China from her grave--ripped my heart out. Between that and watching her suck up to Henry Kissinger, she's done fucked herself right royally from head to toe.

So, well, if you don't really mean well, we'll all know soon enough, Grady. But if you're really, honestly sincere, please understand that you're not going to be a hero for the Democrats, by magically finding that argument which will Change Our Minds About Hillary. Most of us are way, way, way beyond that.

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FYI-my response was not sarcastic, even if it appeared to be.

In fact, talking about this diary fiasco with my friend, led him to explain how the word "trigger" has it's own negative connotations, and that they have been discussed somewhat widely in various forums.

I am somewhat new to posting on these sites, and I am still learning. It probably looks pretty bad to somebody who has seen these pitfalls before, and thought they had been settled. I never want to be a negative force in this space. I have already admitted my publishing of this diary at this time was VERY ill-advised, and as you suggest, this may not even be the right forum for such a diary. And as I have learned, it was riddled with phrases that I should have known not to use. I only left it up, after people suggested I should, to preserve the vast discussion it generated.

I hope you maybe check other things I have written, and see that I come here in good faith.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

lunachickie's picture

but this is not a "purity site". If you believe otherwise, either you're really new or you're really not reading a lot of it.

I wouldn't mind seeing a quote from Chomsky where he's going to pull for HRC, I hadn't heard that one yet.

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I listened to an extended interview with her by Mark Thompson on "Make it Plain" last night and she is worlds better than either major party candidate. So don't waste your vote by writing in a name that won't even be reported by the Board of Elections.

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I've seen lots of changes. What doesn't change is people. Same old hairless apes.

The funny thing is, I AM going to vote for Jill Stein. But I live in California. I hate to admit, I will be rooting for HRC over Trump. And if, sadly, I lived in a swing state, I would find my self holding my nose like never before.

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GradySeasons
"The nightlife ain't no good life, but it's my life."

TheOtherMaven's picture

and vote for cowshit over pigshit.

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There is no justice. There can be no peace.

lunachickie's picture

and it's got Stein on the ballot, so that's where my vote is going as of today. I can't hold my nose enough to vote for either of those other two.

I'll assume for the time being that it won't count, and we'll see what happens at the convention.

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