Why the Mar-a-Lago raid could be the best thing ever for the Left

Die-Hard Trump fans don't care about facts. I can sort of understand where they are coming from because of the way the Democrats went about going after Trump (i.e. the Dems started with the B.S. Russiagate). So if you stopped listening after that then you missed the real and substantial scandals of Trump.

Here's the thing: The FBI has been the hammer that has been crushing the Left for just over a century. From the Palmer Raids, past COINTELPRO, and all through the War on some Terror, the FBI has been at war with the Left in this country, and it's been winning. The FBI is the perfect tool for the proto-fascist/neo-fascist right.
In other words, the FBI is the natural ally of Trump and his supporters.

So any split between the FBI and the reactionary Right is a win for the Left.
Boy, did we have a split!

Let's face it: the Trumpian wing of the Republican Party is not very smart, but they make up for it in volume and hypocrisy.
If you think about it, it was inevitable that this split would happen. I mean, an arrogant, greedy, narcissistic, con man that isn't very smart, is leading a political movement of people who also aren't very smart and refuse to believe anything that doesn't fit into their world view. It may take longer with some, but eventually reality wins. Reality always wins in the end.

What's more, this split is destined to get worse because once reality starts to shine a light into their Trumpian world they will lash out. That means whoever is close at the time will get hit first.
The crazy Trump fan who attacked the FBI office today is a good example.

This is only the beginning. Trump is in serious legal trouble, and as his legal troubles compound he's going to play the victim more and more, and his supporters will keep getting more unhinged.

Let's start with the Mar-a-Lago search warrant.

The Justice Department has asked a court to unseal the warrant the FBI received before searching the Florida estate of former President Donald Trump, Attorney General Merrick Garland said Thursday, acknowledging the extraordinary public interest in the case.

The request was striking because such documents traditionally remain sealed during a pending investigation. But the Justice Department appeared to recognize that its silence since the search had created a vacuum for bitter attacks from the former president and his allies, and Garland felt it wise to respond to the widespread demands for details about what the led to the FBI action.

It would be unprecedented, and extremely stupid, for the prosecution to want a search warrant unsealed if this was truly a "witch hunt", as some believe. However, there is NOTHING stopping Trump from releasing the search warrant today if he wanted to, and he would be stupid not to, if this was a witch hunt.
So do you believe that both the Justice Department and the Trump legal team are stupid?

And now it turns out that the FBI was looking for documents on nuclear weapons.

A more immediate and serious legal problem for Trump is the fallout from his efforts to overturn the 2020 Georgia elections. It appears that the DA's in Georgia don't have a sense of humor regarding this.

Court documents filed late Tuesday reveal Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis has informed all 16 of the individuals who signed an “unofficial electoral certificate” that was ultimately sent to the National Archives in late 2020 they may be indicted in the probe.

The significant development indicates prosecutors are moving closer to possible criminal charges against those involved in the effort. It also suggests the probe may be drawing closer to Trump himself, as it comes on the heels of subpoenas that were issued to several members of the former President’s legal team who took part in overseeing the effort to overturn the election results in Georgia and other key battleground states.

When those 16 people suddenly realize that they are looking at jail time, and Trump will throw them under the bus, how many of them do you think are going to flip and suddenly become witnesses for the prosecution?
Rudy Giuliani has been ordered to appear in front of the Georgia grand jury investigating the 2020 election next week. Sen. Lindsey Graham has also been asked to testify.
This case has caused Trump to hire a celebrity lawyer, famous for defending rappers.

Another legal problem for Trump comes from his finances. He's been able to tie up his shenanigans in the courts for decades, but now it appears that his luck is running out.

A commercial real estate firm held in contempt of court for failing to hand over records on its appraisals of several Trump Organization properties to New York’s attorney general has turned over nearly 36,000 documents, court filings show.

New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron had found Cushman & Wakefield in contempt last month for not producing documents in state Attorney General Letitia James’ civil probe into the Trump Organization’s business practices and ordered the firm to pay a $10,000-a-day fine until it complied.

It was this very case that caused Trump to plead the 5th just the other day.

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snoopydawg's picture

related to nuclear weapons or something along that line. If that’s true then why did the justice department wait for 18 months to go and get them? If it’s not true the fact still remains that whatever documents he had he’s had them for 18 months.

Judicial watch said that Clinton also took classified documents home from the WH after he left and the Bush justice department didn’t raid his house.

And again Trump had every right to plead the 5th even after he made fun of people for doing it. He said he now understands why they do. Shitlibs find it hilarious that he did instead of acknowledging that it’s one of the few rights we have left. If Trump fudged on his taxes and they can prove it then yes he should have to answer for it. BUT then I hope that this starts a precedent and the new IRS agents go after every other person who has. And if this raid on Trumps house wakes up the republicans to the abuses that the FBI does then that would be great news. But that doesn’t take away how they only follow the law when it’s convenient for them to. Let’s not forget how they lied to the FISA court to get their warrant to spy on Trump’s campaign and the person who lied got to walk.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg

If that’s true then why did the justice department wait for 18 months to go and get them? If it’s not true the fact still remains that whatever documents he had he’s had them for 18 months.

So now the criticism is that the FBI wasn't aggressive enough? Meh.
The only thing that matters is what documents did they find.

Judicial watch said that Clinton also took classified documents home from the WH after he left and the Bush justice department didn’t raid his house.

It wasn't a felony until the Trump presidency.

It's interesting how some people on the left refuse to see something good (or not welcome it) when it's right in their face.

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snoopydawg's picture

@gjohnsit

Jezus when did it start being acceptable for people here to put words in my mouth? As for yipping and yahooing that the FBI did something to someone most people don’t like, when did so called leftist start cheering for anything they did? Good grief. They are not our friends no matter what they do. At least they ain’t my friends and I’ll never get behind anything that terrorists organization does. What’s next this site starts saying that we back the blue?

Of course I believe that no one is above the law, but our law is very selective about who it goes after. I said that if Trump is guilty and it can be proven then that’s a start, but it sure does seem selective about what rich people it’s going after.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg @snoopydawg the FBI, and any other govt agency with a reputation, finally does something right. We should applaud when appropriate actions are taken, always with concern for the searchee's rights, even beyond whatever care they would take with an ordinary person, which is usually considerably less.

Merrick Garland, true to his moderate cautious nature, has actually shown he's a by-the-book person and is well aware of the necessity of respecting the duties and rights involved on both sides. Double bonus points for the fact that it was a Trump-appointed FBI Director who signed off on the raid.

The Trumpsters are squealing and on the defensive because their guy got caught with dozens of boxes of govt docs illegally in his possession, some apparently containing classified material (per National Archives) and possibly highly sensitive nuclear info, and there's no getting around it.

No one knows where this will all lead, and as always one remains very skeptical that the Donald will ever see what it's like on the wrong side of the bars inside Sing-Sing, but it's encouraging that apparently the chief law enforcement officer in the land is not taking a Too Big to Prosecute approach.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

The Trumpsters are squealing and on the defensive because their guy got caught with dozens of boxes of govt docs illegally in his possession, some apparently containing classified material (per National Archives) and possibly highly sensitive nuclear info, and there's no getting around it.

Well as long as the Trumpers are upset everything about this is okay. There’s more to this story coming out hourly and it’s still making Garland look like he’s being political. Today’s story is that they knew Trump had some papers and they or someone there put a lock on them, but then even though they were secure they raided him anyway.

I wish people wouldn’t idolize anyone just because of what side they are playing for. Good grief people have been slamming Garland for 18 months because he’s too slow, but now he’s wearing a halo.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg taken against Trump of an adverse nature, including criminal, will be seen by his fervent and fully-committed supporters as "political". And no, it would be absurd and naive to accept assurances about classified docs being "secure" bc T supposedly put a lock on them. They will only be secure when they are out of T's possession and back in govt custody where they belong.

As for MG, he hasn't quite reached hero status yet; too early in the process. The only heroes I have in mind at the moment, during a particularly hot and humid summer period here at the Ponderossiya, is the unknown hero who invented a/c, whoever s/he is. That person deserves a place on Mt Rushmore, preferably displacing colonialist Teddy R. Meanwhile MG has a long way to go. Let's see if he follows through aggressively, or ends up pulling an Eric Holder.

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@snoopydawg

Today’s story is that they knew Trump had some papers and they or someone there put a lock on them, but then even though they were secure they raided him anyway.

First of all, they were confidential papers. You don't get to take them with you no matter what.
Secondly, the Justice Department had subpoena them and Trump had defied the subpoena.
Thirdly, a padlock is NOT sufficient

I wish people wouldn’t idolize anyone just because of what side they are playing for.

No one is idolizing anyone.
You seem to be listening to a Trump source.

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@snoopydawg

Jezus when did it start being acceptable for people here to put words in my mouth?

But at the same time you've never explained what you were trying to say, by pointing out the 18 month delay. What was the point you were trying to make then?

As for yipping and yahooing that the FBI did something to someone most people don’t like, when did so called leftist start cheering for anything they did? Good grief. They are not our friends no matter what they do. At least they ain’t my friends and I’ll never get behind anything that terrorists organization does. What’s next this site starts saying that we back the blue?

Now that's just being disingenuous to the point of outright lying. And I'm taking that very personally.
You know what I meant here. I said it very clearly above.
How ironic is it that it is YOU that have chosen to deliberately pretend to misunderstand my point.

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@snoopydawg facts not in evidence

If that’s true then why did the justice department wait for 18 months to go and get them?

The latest reporting is that an unnamed inside person at MAL notified authorities in JUNE that there still remained many govt docs at the house. This was after the recovery of some materials earlier on 2 visits, including the Feb retrieval of 15 boxes of govt docs and a June retrieval. https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2022/08/11/fbi-agents-reportedly-l...

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snoopydawg's picture

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

snoopydawg's picture

Shitlibs believe that it’s true and now there is no need for a trial. Let’s just lock him up and throw away the key because he’s been found guilty of everything he has been accused of….

Even WaPoo is saying that was why they raided his house.

Thanks Obama for making it legal for the government to blow smoke up our buttocks so we can believe that trickle down works! Or that everything the media tells us is true.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg serves

and now there is no need for a trial. Let’s just lock him up and throw away the key because he’s been found guilty of everything he has been accused of….

it was the Donald himself who spent much of the 2016 campaign leading his campaign crowds in chants of "Lock Her Up!" in reference to HRC>. Talk about no need for a trial ...

I wasn't on this board in that time frame, so someone can fill me in on whether T's famous chant was a subject of discussion here, and whether anyone expressed concern that maybe the Trumpsters were showing some authoritarian tendencies with their convenient overlooking of certain due process niceties. Any hastiness or rush to judgment we might see from a few currently on the anti-T left, eager to finally see the Donald get his comeuppance, pales in comparison to the constant mob justice displays by the Trumpsters against you know who.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

But just because he did that then now it’s okay for democrats to do it? The world doesn’t revolve around kindergarten level.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg Get back to me when we start seeing Biden, Harris, Pelosi or the Chuckster at D rallies leading chants of Lock Him Up!

"hot air": this is exactly the response I got when I expressed my concern about T's overheated, overripe rhetoric to a paying guest here in 2016 during the R convention, a young college sophomore and slavishly-devoted R and Trumpster. He waved away my concerns precisely on the lines of It's just T blowing hot air, no big deal.

I doubted it then, and do today. I think it was a tell about T's notions of how Real Justice should work in this country -- lock up your enemies, who are unpatriotic and a cancer on the country anyway, because you have been elected by the People., even if you haven't actually been elected by the People. For T, that's how it's done by some of these "tough guy" leaders he admires in certain authoritarian countries, because they don't bother with sissy niceties like due process and equal justice, which are all woke notions coming from the anti-American left.

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snoopydawg's picture

@wokkamile

lock up your enemies, who are unpatriotic and a cancer on the country anyway, because you have been elected by the People., even if you haven't actually been elected by the People. For T, that's how it's done by some of these "tough guy" leaders he admires in certain authoritarian countries, because they don't bother with sissy niceties like due process and equal justice, which are all woke notions coming from the anti-American left.

Tell me when Trump seriously went after Hillary after he got elected? Or anyone else he locked up just like those tough guy leaders he admires? Seems to me that it was the democrats that hounded his ass for 5 years and are still doing it with their bogus one sided investigation into the 1/6 riots. It’s democrats that are keeping his name in the daily news instead of breathing a sigh of relief that he’s out of office.

How about Adam Schiff who for 4 years said that Trump was guilty of collusion with Russia and that he had the evidence of it happening? Schiff hid the fact that crowdstrike said that they never had proof that the dnc computer files left their office.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg extreme skeptic of the R-gate stuff, Schiff or not. So much so that I confused some of my fellow liberals, who got it into their soft heads that bc I ended up on this one issue with Trump, that must mean I am some secret "Trump-loving Republican". For my efforts at standing for truth regardless of where the chips may fall, I was banished from the social media platform group I had helped form. They marched straight down the line with Rachel on that one, and it's probably a blessing that I no longer have to put up with their rigid lockstep thinking.

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@wokkamile
Russiagate was one of them. I was also early on Russiagate. The final straw that got me kicked off of the GOS was because I called bullsh*t on it.
Invading Iraq was another one. The pro-War crowd never made a convincing argument that Iraq was anything close to being a danger to the U.S.

I know this one will be controversial here - the anti-COVID vaccine. I've waiting for someone to give me some evidence that COVID didn't actually kill a million Americans. Instead the only pitch that I've seen is "It only killed the old and sickly." To which I say "So?" The lives of the old and sickly have value too. If 1 million Americans died from slipping in the shower, it would still be a health crisis.
Plus, those that opposed the COVID vaccine because they believe that they weren't properly tested (which is a valid concern) base it on anecdotal evidence. Many of those same people endorse ivermectin, which hasn't been tested for COVID at all, but believe in it based on anecdotal evidence.
Those are double-standards.
[I know that some people here will now tell me why I'm wrong. You are more than welcome to. But I don't care. I won't judge you. We are too far down this road for it to matter anymore.]

The last thing that sets off my B.S. detector is this line of reasoning that while they have evidence of Trump's criminal wrongdoing, they can't act on it because 1) Hillary was a criminal too, 2) It will excite Trump's base, 3) the FBI will bungle it.
Response 1) I don't care. That window is mostly closed. Bad people get away with stuff all of the time. That doesn't mean that we should simply give up on punishing bad people. 2) Letting Trump get away with criminality will make his base all the bolder, 3) They may, but see response #1

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@gjohnsit comment, I should add that letting Trump get away with still more crimes -- because, because etc -- will also only make Trump bolder, esp if he somehow manages to sneak in for another term. But as I understand, conviction on some of the areas under investigation would also carry a penalty of preventing him from holding federal office again.

Re FBI bungling, always a chance of that, it's also my understanding this investigation is being overseen by the more sober senior lawyers and officials at the DOJ, including Garland, which brings confidence.

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The Liberal Moonbat's picture

So do you believe that both the Justice Department and the Trump legal team are stupid?

Yes; yes I do.

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In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is declared insane when he speaks of colors.

To paraphrase Jodie Foster: Human is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from.

usefewersyllables's picture

of course, due to National Security reasons. Par for the course.

But assuming that what we are being told is true, and there were in fact DOE TS nuke docs there, what are the chances that the rando who blew the whistle in June had the necessary Q clearance to even look at those docs? Zero. There's your felony, right there.

The wheels grind exceedingly slow, but exceedingly fine. The fact that they are grinding *at all* in this case is nothing short of astonishing. And yes, I'm enjoying a goodly dose of schadenfreude with this development.

It'll probably cause a civil war, and we'll all end up dead, as all of the brain-dead Trumpers go and ballistically Freedumb everything they see. But allow me a moment for a grim smile here, anyway.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables about that needing Q clearance stuff, or whether such a law might apply one to govt employees, perhaps in certain departments, who would normally have such sensitive material in their midst.

The (presumably mere civilian) insider who notified authorities couldn't know if it was of a highly classified/nuclear secrets nature unless he looked, so catch-22. It would be absurd for the feds to prosecute the person who brought the sensitive issue to their attention and counter-productive, not to mention very bad PR for the govt. And I'm not sure anyway if there is a law covering such a situation of a person happening upon such docs by accident and not disclosing their contents to the public. So I don't see the felony, and don't see the feds going after the person even if such a law exists.

Agree with the rest however. It's good to see a boastful bully and hypocrite finally at least get a punch in the nose, even if much more than a punch is needed.

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usefewersyllables's picture

@wokkamile

the whistleblower. The felony comes from taking TS documents out of the required secure facility so that people without the proper clearance can ever see them at all. They are all clearly marked with the required verbiage, and anybody with that elevated clearance should know very damned well what comes with it.

I suspect that he pocketed some of that material just so that he could use it to blackmail the government later, if needed; not just out of curiosity. If so, the bite out of his ass that the government should take will be very well deserved indeed.

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Twice bitten, permanently shy.

@usefewersyllables at this point of course, but he might have done it to alter or erase evidence of activities or plans he authorized or suggested that wouldn't look good for him if publicized.

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Lookout's picture

Reality always wins in the end.

Like in the JFK, RFK, Malcolm X, & MLK assassinations which both the CIA and FBI were involved? Because I have not seen that story.

I'll say again the selective pro-dim approach of the FBI is very suspicious. Ignoring Hunter's blatant illegal activities as well as Hillary's, as well as promoting the false Russiagate narrative. Which I see as much worse than the files...which we still DON"T know the content. When (or if) we ever do, I might change my opinion depending on the nature of that content. At this point it still seems to me a Jan. 6 fishing expedition. I don't trust the FBI and do not see them as non-partisan as some have claimed.

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“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

@Lookout Can't think of a better way to get Rs to the voting booth.
A very close friend worked for the FBI for a few years. Their bureau's mantra is, "If we want you, we will get you." They must not have wanted Her or Hunter, or JFK's assassin.
No matter how hard I try to give Trump no thought at all, the media, and now the FBI, simply won't let me.
Why anyone would have nuclear secrets in their home is nuts, if true. What good is it? Think your code is still the one exclusively for the sitting president?
Anyway, this news is not helpful to Ds, and is probably gonna blow up in their faces.

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snoopydawg's picture

@on the cusp

Trump was going to give the documents to Putin. Or maybe it was the Saudis? I know it was Kim the little guy in North Korea. Seriously take a look at orange state this morning and see how many headlines there have it all figured out. I just read a comment from someone who used to work with top secret stuff who said that nuclear documents are stored electronically and access to them is very hard to get and they can’t be printed.

Hillary’s insecure email server was a big threat to national security too and was illegal for her to use it. Anyone else who did what she did wouldn’t be walking free today. Especially when they were found on Weiner’s laptop. But sure the FBI has been non partisan since Trump was elected. Right? Good lord they worked with Hellabitch to frame him as a Russian puppet.

Wokkamile…Adam Schiff bloviated for 4 years that he had proof of Trump working with Putin and Russia. Democrats impeached him on 2 bogus charges. But since no one said lock him up we can just forget about it I guess.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

Bisbonian's picture

@on the cusp
I can't remember the change-out schedule any more (SAC closed their doors in 1992, and I was a civilian the next day.) It was something simple, like every 30 days, or 90, or something. Anything in Trump's posession is way out of date.

Also, the secrets in the "football" aren't very interesting...they are coded numbers and letters that pertain to launching all the nukes, or some subset of them, or just to be extra ready for those messages. If the President calls for a launch, and the coded numbers/letters match what the grunts have in their "secrets bag", then thay launch. Surely many of us here have watched DR Strangelove a few times...Stanley Kubrick was questioned by the FBI on how he got such accurate information for his movie. Kubrick said it was merely the most logical scenario.

Hillary’s insecure email server was a big threat to national security too and was illegal for her to use it. Anyone else who did what she did wouldn’t be walking free today. Especially when they were found on Weiner’s laptop.

Quite true, snoopydog. But she's in the club.

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"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X

@on the cusp

Can't think of a better way to get Rs to the voting booth.

The die-hard Trumpians will be voting anyway.
But a chance to show that Trump was in fact breaking the law, and doing it in a really stupid way? That's worth it.

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@gjohnsit to rally all Rs behind Trump. Even indies are outraged that the timing of this looks like a political ply by the FBI. That they have been working against him since his election is not going unnoticed.
I am all for justice being applied to everyone, regardless of wealth or power. If Trump committed a crime, he should be prosecuted and sentenced accordingly. As should Hillary and Hunter.
I just think this smells more of election interference than criminality. That will be the motivation of Rs to strengthen their party, even if he did commit a crime.

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@on the cusp
is because a) you could use this reasoning at any time, for any reason. It's essentially a Get-Out-Of-Jail free card for Trump, both before the election AND AFTERWARD. Any action taken against Trump will fall into this category. This sort of thinking will have everyone on the Left running scared all of the time.
b) the wheels of government take time. Just look at criminal cases that have nothing to do with politicians. Forget TV show crimes. Real cases with serious offenses often take a year, or years.
c) if this happened in 2023 there would be accusations about the timing to the election. if it happened in 2024 there would be accusations about the timing to the election.
d) Republicans don't need a reason to rally against the hated "socialists". Once the evidence of criminality is exposed, independents won't rally to support Trump.

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@gjohnsit is one thing for them to fight amongst themselves, a rare thing, but when Ds get into the fray, they close ranks.

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@Lookout cases ... we haven't gotten to the End yet! Sorta seriously.

Example: In the Lincoln assassination, it took nearly 125 yrs after that event for indy historians to find the misfiled Confed Govt docs in the archives which appear to link that govt in rebellion with financial/intelligence efforts to arrange the kidnapping of AL. It's believed now that JWB was not acting on his own in the way he did but for Confed govt support; iow, it's the most logical explanation for what that govt was doing and the movements of Booth just prior to 4-14-65. The leading mainstream Lincoln assassination historian, previously a Simple Conspiracy proponent, just Booth and his small group, reversed himself and backed the Grand Conspiracy theory proposed by the indy researchers.

Re your But What About... paragraph, there will always be What About?, always cases semi- or uninvestigated or properly pursued. Therefore we shouldn't get distracted by such dead-end thinking into doing what's appropriate and right at this moment, even if some might think there are still other cases out there that should have been pursued. That would be my polite response, and one which avoids getting bogged down yet again in the details of those other distractions.

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@Lookout

Like in the JFK, RFK, Malcolm X, & MLK assassinations which both the CIA and FBI were involved? Because I have not seen that story.

That wasn't exactly what I was thinking. Even with those incidents, the official stories of RFK, Malcolm X, and MLK have been undermined in recent years.
But I was thinking of more broad things, such neoliberalism and globalism, both of which were considered universally good and inevitable 30 years ago.

I'll say again the selective pro-dim approach of the FBI is very suspicious. Ignoring Hunter's blatant illegal activities as well as Hillary's, as well as promoting the false Russiagate narrative.

It's not pro-Dem. It's pro-establishment.
Consider what the FBI let the Bush Administration get away with. Or what they allow congress, from both parties, to get away with.
Plus there is the expectation that if you were going to be corrupt, you would be smart about it. Not crude and obvious, like Trump.

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Pluto's Republic's picture

@Lookout

!

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____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Ohio Barbarian's picture

He won't even be convicted of anything. As for classified documents, he was the President when he took them, right? The President can declassify anything he wants, so there's his defense if it comes to that. He's more bulletproof than Hillary Clinton was with her emails that Bernie Sanders got so sick of hearing about.

He's part of Carlin's big club that we ain't in. Many other club members may not like him. But jail him? No. Bad precedent for them.

This whole thing is clearly an effort to try to stop Trump from running again in 2024, IMHO. It's not about justice or even national security.

I must admit, however, that it is ironic to see Republicans calling for defunding the FBI. It's not a total surprise, but distrust of the national security state by Trump voters is definitely a positive development.

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Never let your morals prevent you from doing the right thing.--Salvor Hardin, Foundation, by Isaac Asimov

@Ohio Barbarian considerable powers on de-classification, though I believe a proper procedure has to first be adhered to, but he doesn't have the right to take these documents with him when he leaves office. Presidential Records Act makes that a crime, some of it a felony -- mere possession.

Meanwhile, it's premature to be too confident in any outcomes as we don't know yet what the govt found in those docs, although it's still a reasonable hope by many of us that the Don could get in such criminal jeopardy in the next 6-12 months, with the docs, with the DA's investigation into the attempted election tampering in GA, etc etc, that finally the cowardly Rs might decide he's just too radioactive to nominate again. One can hope.

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@Ohio Barbarian

He won't even be convicted of anything.

Just because he won't see a jail, doesn't mean he won't be convicted of anything.

As for classified documents, he was the President when he took them, right? The President can declassify anything he wants, so there's his defense if it comes to that.

There's three things wrong with this statement.
1) declassifying things is a process. He can't just say "I declassify" and it is done.
2) he can only declassify things while he's president. he's not president anymore
3) if it actually was nuclear weapons documents, then that requires all sorts of other steps to declassify

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@gjohnsit and property list taken by the FBI.
Well, there is a Big Problem. The attached supporting affidavit which shows probable cause was not attached. If that problem isn't corrected instanter, the warrant can be quashed, all evidence be suppressed, and the criminal case is dead in its' tracks, due to an illegal search and seizure.
The FBI is becoming a joke. While I do not like to see attorneys from either side get too involved with these searches, Trump's attorneys were barred from being observers. That is NOT typical. I can't count how many searches I have observed.
If the State is too incompetent to properly obtain evidence to indict and convict, then no conviction should result. The State has 100% burden to prove guilt.
I am very curious to see how that goof shakes out.

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snoopydawg's picture

@on the cusp

the warrant. Tell us why that is. And wasn’t that what Clinesmith was guilty of? Lying about the affidavit in order to get the FISA warrant to spy on Trump? Gee talk about no one being above the law after he got probation for doing that.

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It is not until the tide goes out that you discover who has been swimming naked.

@snoopydawg by the police officer to convince the magistrate there is a criminal activity occurring and that if allowed to search a specific place for evidence, and not giving the green light to just search everything everywhere, is justified. It is illegal to search beyond set parameters. A warrant for a house search does not open up a search to a second house, or an office. The search and seizure is supposed to be for specific evidence of a specific kind at a specific place. Without seeing that affidavit, we cannot determine if this search was legal or not.
I have challenged warrants numerous times, got the evidence suppressed, killed the case on the spot. Usually, it is the cops hunting for drugs in the house, going all over the property and finding guns or stolen property.

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@on the cusp . the fed authorities made any such blunder, and for any such obvious omission, if it in fact was omitted, any reasonably sober lawyer repping even DJT would have noticed. And this is federal law here, not state, so the procedures might be different.

If you have any cite to any legal authority with fed criminal law experience who has brought up this issue, it would be helpful to see.

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@wokkamile @wokkamile R.41,Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
I bring it up.

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@on the cusp a little search that Trump's team and the RW media brought this up earlier today. Not that the affidavit was omitted, which u seemed to argue above, but that it hasn't been unsealed.

This piece for an explanation why the affidavit hasn't been disclosed yet, makes perfect sense in an ongoing investigation where, basically, sources and methods could be compromised, which is just what Trump wants, more detailed info as to how the feds are going about their investigation so he can thwart it. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-12/experts-explain-why-m...

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@wokkamile @wokkamile or for the equivalent of an examining trial, such as we have in Texas.
Please do not read into this that I am some Trumper. Can't stand him.
I am a lawyer, have taken oaths. I am not a prosecutor. I am a defense attorney. Trump's attorneys would be committing egregious malpractice if they didn't spot that immediately. His attorney's will ultimately win on this issue.
A good defense attorney has no reason to ask his client if they did the crime. You ask if your client is aware of any evidence out there that could tend to get them convicted.
I just won't lose my shit over Trump. Never have, never will. He deserves the same fairness that you and I do. He is no worse than the 17 pen I have represented who were charged with murder.
I focus on issues, not personalities. The procedure required to be followed must be followed. Period.

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@on the cusp entitled to see the affidavit at this stage, during the ongoing investigation. A fed magistrate did see it, and on the basis of that and the warrant he determined there was probable cause to search. T's atty got to see the warrant but not the affidavit, as per usual procedure. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2022/8/11/23300933/donald-trump-...

While I do not like to see attorneys from either side get too involved with these searches, Trump's attorneys were barred from being observers.

According to this report, that is not true. At least one T atty was present during the search. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/08/trump-fbi-maralago-search-00050442

So the complaint is what exactly? That the affidavit hasn't been released to T or to the public? You are back and forth mixing discussion of the warrant and the affidavit in your above comments. What exactly did the feds do wrong? Per standard procedure, it was all by the book, which is to be expected given this was the most important search warrant produced by the DOJ in recent times. The T legal team is not entitled to know at this stage how the DOJ is conducting its investigation and who their informants are, so they get to see the warrant but not the more specific attached affidavit, and there is solid fed case law backing this policy.

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@wokkamile federal case law, and please square it with Brady.
Since Trump didn't hire me, I will not be delving into his legal problems further. I do not love or hate him enough to give a shit, one way or another.

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@on the cusp link provided in the Vox story I linked above. Def/public qualified interest in seeing court documents can be overridden by greater govt interest in protecting such info during an ongoing investigation:

Indeed, while the Supreme Court has said that “the courts of this country recognize a general right to inspect and copy public records and documents, including judicial records and documents,” lower courts have held that this right can be overcome by the government’s need to keep sensitive information about ongoing investigations secret. As the US Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit, which oversees federal cases in Florida, said in one case, documents may be kept secret when there is a “substantial probability that the government’s ongoing investigation would be severely compromised if the sealed documents were released.”

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orlbucfan's picture

@Ohio Barbarian is kept from running again. Nixon-Raygun-Bush I-Clinton-Cheney/Dumbya/Bush II-BO-tRump. What a lineup!!!!!!!!! The FBI? You mean garbage like J. Edgar Hoover? And if the maggot had papers in his crib, that would nail any American, finish him off!! I am sick of watching my nation and the world fall to pieces! Rec'd!!

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Inner and Outer Space: the Final Frontiers.

I ain't seen one in my gov't since Carter and I'm not totally sure about him.

BTW, I'm a recovering Bernie Bro.

As for the die-harders.... sorry, I think anti-Trumpers are just as bad if not worse than the Trumpers when it comes to facts.

Comments like these are what got me in trouble so I'm toning them back.... Please excuse the interruption

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@exindy
And Carter was NOT on the Left.
Look at my examples I listed. The Palmer Raids were against socialists and trade unionists. COINTELPRO was against socialists, civil rights and anti-war leaders. And in the last 20+ years they've been infiltrating and undermining any anti-war, environmentalist group...and socialists.
So by "the Left" I mean, the Left.

I think anti-Trumpers are just as bad if not worse than the Trumpers when it comes to facts.

That may or may not be true, but I'm not talking about anti-Trumpers. I'm talking about The Left.

As an old (well, maybe not THAT old) ITer, I think the maintenance of a personal server dealing with Sec of State business and emails to be much, much worse than a hard-copy list of 3 year old access codes to the football.

As a current old ITer, I think you don't have enough information to make that call.

As much as I cannot stand Trumpty-dumpty, he is the closest we have seen to a populist since Carter.

I don't consider either of them anywhere CLOSE to being a populist.
Trump is a "right-wing reactionary". There is no such thing as a right-wing populist.
While Carter was one of the biggest deregulators in American history.

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@gjohnsit

Populism is NOT a right/left proposition in todays mismanaged society. It is vertical.

As above, toning back my comments. Please excuse the interruption.

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@exindy

The only time that group was in any way curtailed was during the Trump presidency.

I beg to differ. Trump went out of his way to gut every regulatory body in the government.

As far as having the "Left" rejoicing? Seriously? Once again, who is this Left? Name one.

Me. There are a few others on this blog. Some people I know in my union and in my family. Do you want their names?

Based on what I have been seeing in the international community and the operation of our barely functional society, just what are our choices? IMHO, I think we could really use a little of swamp draining.

I agree with that. Too bad we won't get any swamp draining under Trump, Biden, or any other likely candidate.

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@gjohnsit draining -- Trump was projecting again. He brought more swamp with him instead of draining it. Swampy ethics and swampy illegal conduct for sure.

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@exindy Excellent observations! (I am so far left, it would be hard to actually label me!)

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