What's the matter with Trump supporters?

Judging is easy. Understanding is hard

When you look at a crowd of Donald Trump supporters, several things stand out.
They are white.
They are often older.
They are angry.

But what are they angry about? Most people look at Trump's rhetoric about immigrants and foreigners and stop there.
It's easy to not get further than that because what Trump says is often so shocking. However, that says everything about you and little about Trump's supporters.
If you want to understand what motivates Trump's supporters you have to ask them. You can't just project your assumptions upon them.

the poll shows national security is an area of vulnerability for Trump: 25 percent say he is the “most qualified” Republican to handle the issue, closely followed by Cruz at 18 percent. Another 11 percent pick Rubio. Only 6 percent say Carson.
Compare that to the 48 percent landslide Trump gets when GOP primary voters are asked which Republican candidate is “most qualified” to handle the economy. No other candidate even garners double digits on this measure. The next closest are Bush and Cruz at 9 percent each, followed by Rubio at 8 percent.

Handling the economy is the overwhelming reason for Trump's lead in the polls. "Immigration issues" rank a distant third in Republican voter priority.

At least one journalist put two-and-two together when this study came out last month.

What’s killing Donald Trump’s voters?
That’s my reaction to the highly disturbing health news that two Princeton economists have uncovered about a key slice of the billionaire presidential candidate’s support base.
Since 1999, middle-aged white Americans with a high school diploma or less education have been dying in record numbers, according to Angus Deaton (a winner this year of a Nobel Prize) and his wife, Anne Case.

The biggest group of Trump supporters also happens to be the exact same group showing signs of measurable distress.
This isn't a coincidence.

It is to the left-behind crowd, whose demographic profiles closely resemble those of Donald Trump’s base, that Trump speaks most directly and effectively.
“In terms of demographics, Trump’s supporters are a bit older, less educated and earn less than the average Republican,” Real Clear Politics reported in September, citing YouGov polls....
What unites Trump’s supporters is a profound sense of discontent, betrayal and abandonment by a country and economy that promised them a better life than what they’re struggling through.
...
Most of this rising mortality, says the Deaton-Case study, is driven by an epidemic of self-destruction: Suicides and substance abuse, particularly alcohol-related liver disease and overdoses of heroin and prescription opioids.

Middle-aged whites are in obvious distress in the most clear and undeniable way science can measure - they are killing themselves.
If you look at any group, race, or even animal genus, a rising mortality rate is incontrovertible scientific evidence of real distress.

Later analysis of this study revealed that the death rates are being driven by white women.
That's an interesting point because white women slightly outnumber white men among Trump supporters according to polls despite Trump's misogynistic statements.

So why are so many middle-aged whites killing themselves?
I found the first responses to this study enlightening. For example:
Is 'white privilege' killing off middle-aged white people?

Middle-aged men and women alike fell prey to their own choices and the consequences.

That was a mild example. Less mainstreams outlets such as here and here have outright shadenfreude.

I can safely say that something is seriously wrong with you when you can't work up any empathy from poor people killing themselves by the thousands out of hopelessness and despair, just because they are the "wrong" skin color in your eyes.

The best example of this is Bill Maher's rant.

“Middle-aged American whites are dropping like flies,” Maher said before Jay Leno pretended to collapse next to him to audience laughter. But what is killing the old guard? Drugs, alcohol, suicide and “possibly trying to fit into skinny jeans” the report finds (excluding that last bit).
The findings also include suicide rates for whites are now four times that of black Americans and due to a rise in heroin use among whites, the death rate from it is also up. But, no fear, Maher has some advice, “You’re white! Cheer the fuck up!”

It makes me wonder if this flippant attitude comes from working a suicide prevention hotline? Press 1 or hang up if you are white.
I realize that Bill Maher is just a comedian, but he's also representative of the liberal class of this country, so its no wonder so many whites are pissed off at liberals. After all, if liberals are so eager to stereotype them and dismiss obvious pain and distress based on nothing else but skin color, then "F U too" is a normal, healthy response.

And as for Maher's comment about how "It's always a great time to be white" in history.
Perhaps Bill should look into the history of the Irish.
Or white serfs during the many centuries of feudalism.
Or the conditions of those factories during the Industrial Revolution. Oliver Twist and The Jungle weren't stories about white privilege.
Or how working class whites did during the Great Depression.

Come to think of it, what period in history was Bill Maher thinking of when being poor and white did not suck?
It appears that liberals can be just as guilty as conservatives when it comes to historical revisionism to fit a political agenda.

Even those articles that take a more neutral stand, such as this one, leave serious questions about the assumptions involved.

“It could be that high-school educated whites were accustomed to the rising living standards of their parents, and expected the same for themselves until the financial rug was pulled out from under them,” Skinner said in an e-mail. “For African-American households, rising living standards were never guaranteed.”

Really? That's why people drink themselves to death or put a bullet in their head? That's only one step removed from Maher calling suicidal people "whimps".

I have news for these people:
People don't kill themselves because they are whimps. Or because someone else is getting ahead. Suicide is a very personal thing.
What's more, it's a tragedy, not a joke. If you find yourself working hard to find reasons to dismiss it, then you are the one messed up.
When the suicide rate climbs 40% in a decade, its a health crisis in addition to being a tragedy.
When one small segments of society accounts for 70% of all the suicides, then its a sign that something is wrong with that society.
And if the reactions listed above to this study is an example of liberal society in America, then something is seriously wrong with liberal America. It isn't just conservatives that are willing to reject scientific evidence if it conflicts with their dogma.

This is an important point because it goes to the heart of why Trump is so popular. Chris Hedges explains this in no uncertain terms.

A faux liberal class, epitomized by amoral politicians such as the Clintons and Barack Obama, has led many disenfranchised people, especially the white underclass, to direct a legitimate rage toward liberals and the supposed liberal values they represent. Racism, bigotry, religious intolerance, homophobia, sexism and vigilante violence, condemned by liberal, college-educated elites, are embraced by those who have been betrayed, those who now speak back to liberal elites in words, gestures and acts, sometimes violent, designed to denigrate the core values of a liberal democracy. The hatred is the product of a liberal class that did nothing to halt corporations from driving tens of millions of families into poverty and desperation as it mouthed empty platitudes about rights and economic advancement.
...
But what the Republican elites have done, as they now realize to their horror, is empower a huge swath of the public—largely white—that is gripped by magical thinking and fetishizes violence. It was only a matter of time before a demagogue whom these elites could not control would ride the wave of alienation and rage. If Trump fails in his bid to become the GOP presidential nominee, another demagogue will emerge to take his place. Trump is not making a political revolution. He is responding to one....
The liberal class failed for decades to decry neoliberalism’s assault on the poor and on workingmen and -women. It busied itself with a boutique activism. It is not that cultural diversity is bad. It isn’t. It is that cultural diversity when divorced from economic and political justice, from the empowerment of the oppressed, is elitist. And this is why these liberal values are being rejected by a disenfranchised white underclass. They are seen as serving the elites, and marginalized groups, at the expense of that underclass...
The country realizes it has been sold out. Most citizens are apathetic and do not vote consistently. Some, especially in the white underclass, are willing to follow anyone, no matter how buffoonish, who promises that the parasites and courtiers will be driven from power. This mixture of rage and apathy is a recipe for totalitarianism.

Trump supporters are overwhelmingly pessimistic, which shouldn't be a surprise from a group more likely to be suicidally depressed. Given that frame of mind, it should also not be surprising that Trump supporters don't care in the slightest when Trump lies.

“I spoke to a lot of his supporters who are waiting to come into this rally. And I asked them what they think of Donald Trump and whether or not they’re bothered by his inaccurate statements and whether they think they matter. And not a single one of them said that they thought it mattered.

Clinical psychologists are in overwhelming agreement that Trump has a “textbook narcissitic personality disorder.”
That gives rise to two serious concerns.

1. Trump is applying for the greatest job in the land, who's primary task is to serve. But there isn't a single bone in Trump's body that is concerned with anything but himself.
2. What does this say about his supporters?

“For me, the compelling question is the psychological state of his supporters. They are unable or unwilling to make a connection between the challenges faced by any president and the knowledge and behavior of Donald Trump. In a democracy, that is disastrous.”

Trump is stunningly unqualified for the highest job in this country, and that's not the biggest problem.
His policies have all the trademarks of fascism. I spotted this way back in July. He's downright scary, and that makes his supporters scary.
But like fascist supporters in Europe in the 1920's, they have legitimate grievances. Ignoring or dismissing those grievances won't make the problems go away.

No matter what angle you look at this, Trump isn't the problem. Trump is only a symptom of a much larger problem, and liberal America seems either unable or unwilling to recognize this.
For very different reasons and motives, both liberals and conservatives are in denial here, which means this political crisis is likely to get worse before it gets better. Trump is likely to only be the start of a trend.

Share
up
0 users have voted.

Comments

before posting it to GOS. Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions.

up
0 users have voted.

They are much like Bernie supporters only with a twist. We're pissed and not as stupid. I intend to support Bernie as far as possible. But then?

I haven't thought this through, but I have thought about it. If Hillary is shoved down our throats, what if I vote for Trump? Wouldn't that make my vote count twice more or less? -1 from Hillary and a +1 for Trump Mathematically, I would cancel my vote out. But in this case, I don't think so. And then there is the do I really want to vote for Trump? Hmmm, no - but I really want Hillary to lose. The only way to bury the GOP is to bury the Third Way. The only way to bury the Third Way is to bury their candidate Hillary. The sane option is to vote Green or write Bernie or even Daffy Duck in, but there is a perverse pleasure to be received in voting against Hillary and for Trump. Glad I don't have to vote today.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

I have no tears, loss of sleep to be experienced because, or great sadness for the white victimology blues....

Trump supporters have a lot to be angry about, but they are out of touch with and misplace their anger. Not only are they being used and abused by the establishment, they are being mocked by "white liberals and black elitist" anti-establishment types for being white, undereducated, lower class, and politically incorrect. Nothing is too outrageous to say about white people, particularly white males.

The hatred is the product of a liberal class that did nothing to halt corporations from driving tens of millions of families into poverty and desperation as it mouthed empty platitudes about rights and economic advancement.

The working class (blue collar) was the first to be thrown under the bus. It was typical, "first they came for the jews". Over the last 35 years, they have been working their way up the economic ladder, but apparently not far enough to impact the Hillary voters.

1. Trump is applying for the greatest job in the land, who's primary task is to serve. But there isn't a single bone in Trump's body that is concerned with anything but himself. 2. What does this say about his supporters?

As far as I'm concerned, the same is true for Hillary and her supporters. Hillary is a fascist and so is Obama, and we've been on this path for years. Electing Hillary will seal the deal and take it to a higher level. Trump oth is so nuts and unpredictable, there is a chance he'll blow up the wrong target and nail the .001%. And that in my opinion is his appeal.

There's a lot in your diary to unpack.

up
0 users have voted.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

gulfgal98's picture

to see how this flies. It is a very provocative diary.

One problem I had was with the link to the Chicago paper. It did not go t the article for me.

Back to the meat of this diary. I do agree that Trump is a symptom of a much larger problem and that the increasing death rate of middle age white males with a high school education or less is also a symptom of the larger issue. Being able to sell that at dkos may be a very difficult sale. Hedges has it right about the liberal class and that is what dkos represents.

Your sub header right after your intro is excellent. It is something i have been thinking about a lot in recent months. Judging is easy. Understanding is hard. I think this diary goes to that point, but the question is will anyone understand? After writing my Wednesday open thread on apology, I have been thinking a lot about understanding others and why they act or react as they do. Often we react instinctively which automatically shuts down our ability to understand why others think and do as they do.

I think this is a very timely diary. Good luck on helping people to understand beyond just judging. I hope it sparks a real conversation beyond the usual clown car stuff.

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

This essay flies directly against modern, mainstream liberal dogma. It won't fly on DKos for the same reasons that Chris Hedges is hated there.

It still needs to be said.
The study in question wasn't as interesting as the response it got.
Most liberals literally didn't know how to react to it. At least the non-racist ones.

It's almost like the Catholic Church when Galileo told them that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. Scientific proof had to be dismissed because church dogma demanded it.
That's a similar reaction to this study by liberals. A group of people killing themselves en mass is scientific proof of a group in distress. So liberals have to question the very nature of what makes scientific proof. Otherwise decades of liberal dogma must suffer.

up
0 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

He used to be liked very much until perhaps 18 months ago.

Was it over a particular issue?

Or has Chris Hedges changed? His reality-based writing seems a bit more passionate. I've noticed that he is also stating facts that make people feel uncomfortable, and stating them boldly.

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
shaharazade's picture

reason that Glenn Greenwald, Cornell West, Assange, Snowden or any other truth teller is. 18 months ago there we're probably more 'far lefty' purists those, triatorious enemies of the party and state still participating. Over the years I've spent there reality based has been stood on it's head and now it's all about fear of the other side and they include people like Hedges. Passionate writing is extreme and it might piss off the 'moderate' Dem. voters and enable the right wing loonies. Hedges is spouting RW talking points, which I get accused of quite often by the deluded partisan sheple. This is the 'demographic' Markos has decided he wants and promotes.

Actually you answered your own question...

His reality-based writing seems a bit more passionate. I've noticed that he is also stating facts that make people feel uncomfortable, and stating them boldly.

up
0 users have voted.
Pluto's Republic's picture

Whenever possible, I like to keep the perspective global rather than national. Especially regarding the US, since it is the self-appointed killing force that collectively punishes all other countries.

On that note, I popped over to Zero Hedge, and found this at the top of the stories"

Prince Of World Beheading Champion Saudi Arabia Calls Trump "A Disgrace To America"

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 12/11/2015

You know you've 'made it' when the prince of one of the world's biggest human rights abuser (and leading 'beheader') nations calls you a "disgrace to America."

Read on….

up
0 users have voted.

____________________

The political system is what it is because the People are who they are. — Plato
Unabashed Liberal's picture

blog on economic matters.

As far as I can tell, a lot of Kossacks are corporatist and/or neoliberal Dems.

That is the antithesis of Hedges.

Hedges for President! Seriously, he'd get my vote in a heartbeat!

Wink

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown

Postscript: Pelosi is angry because she wants more 'pay fors' (cuts in social programs is what that normally refers to) in the Omnibus bill (in exchange for tax cuts).

More later--reporting is very cryptic, right now.

up
0 users have voted.

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

that liberals today have basically surrendered the entire field of economics, except when it comes to having a token bone thrown their way.
Now its only about skin color and gender percentages and not offending people.

Two centuries of dreams and ideas discarded.

up
0 users have voted.
Unabashed Liberal's picture

of "liberal."

In the opinion of many writers who write at leftist blogs--ZCommunications, CounterPunch, etc., Dkos is pretty much a 'conservative' Democratic, and Dem Party-sanctioned blog.

What is the definition of 'liberal' that's in play? Again, several commenters at your just-posted essay, who are faithful Kossacks, parrot the DLC type of thinking--pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

(Including one who appears to have no caring, understanding, or empathy regarding his sister's plight--an addict, or alcoholic.)

Comments like that aren't even close to being liberals. But, it is reflective of much of the thinking over there.

IOW, I'm not sure that Hedges is referring to obviously 'conservative' Democrats or Independents, like the ones which heavily populate DKos. Or, at least, I've never taken him to be referring to those folks.

But, that's just my take . . .

Mollie


"Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare."--Japanese Proverb
up
0 users have voted.

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

mimi's picture

... he calls for a revolution that scares all those, who want just elect better Democrats. So people feel offended, how much is dependent on how much they are supporters of Obama, Clinton or Sanders. Most people are smart enough to see that his arguments are to the point and they have no answers to counter them other than ... that you can't give up and have to vote for somebody to be a good citizen.

It's pretty shameful to hate men like Hedges, Chomsky or West, imo. Some people say Hedges is too bold and causes depression in those people, who read them and find his arguments truthful and honest. What they miss in Hedges' words is at least a hint to something that gives people hope or something to believe in. For example: "Don't you dare to give up", or "it's better to show up than to give up" is a sentence you hear often from the left progressives or left social democrats (including Sanders). When people read Hedges you end up not knowing how to have hope into anything, because they do not see the "practical steps" they can take to change the "empire" they all hate in some shape and form.

I think that's the reason. Hedges argues against voting for Sanders. That leaves a lot of people clueless and helpless. I decided to ignore Hedges on that point. Everything else he writes is very necessary to consider, imo. Anyhow it's nobody's business to know for whom you vote. So, why even quarrel over that?

up
0 users have voted.
gulfgal98's picture

I believe this is a very important diary because it shines a light back upon the failures of what Chris Hedges has so well articulated as the “liberal class.” We have allowed ourselves to become corralled off into smaller and smaller groups by the oligarchs, We preach for social justice, but we cannot have social justice without the corresponding economic and environmental justice.

The real divide is not left/right, or Republican/Democrat, or even conservative/liberal but it is up versus down. Until the members of this site and the powers that be here understand and embrace that fact, we will continue to slip further and further into a third world status. For the first time in modern history, the middle class is not the majority. I thoroughly believe that the impoverishment of the middle class has been done on purpose so that they can continue to divide us up into smaller and smaller groups, each of which is competing for smaller and smaller pieces of the pie. Then demagogues such as Trump can step in and demonize every possible group and get away with it.

While we cannot reach all those who have been demonized on this site as rednecks or ignorant or worse, I have found through my Peace vigil that we can have conversations with conservatives that are productive in that we can come to a mutual understanding and agreement on many points. This is the very reason that this diary is an important one.

As liberals, we should be open minded and less judgmental and try to develop some measure of understanding of those on the other side. That is how alliances are formed and we sure as hell are going need them if we are going to save this country and maintain the earth’s ability to sustain life in the coming generations.

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

shaharazade's picture

I became an active member of my county Democratic party shortly after Bush was selected, I was recruited by a Green. I was then a flaming unabashed liberal. I was totally disgusted by the Clinton DLC Democratic machine. I started thinking about needed coalitions to fight the take over by the extreme RW. She said the left needs to come together and get rid of this RW wing coup and then we can go back to squabbling among ourselves about the degrees of liberalism. Turns out it was a by-partisan coup This diversionary tactic ia at this point solidified.

I know what the RW lunatics are about so lets focus on getting the Democratic evil fucks out of our party. Demonizing any group or 'demographic' seems pointless as neither party has any interest in resolving the great divides they have cultivated for decades. I don't know why people insist that racism and classism are separate issues that do not have common ground. All kinds of nasty ism's grow in the carefully tilled and seeded ground that feeds the ignorance, fear hatred and bigotry.

I have one son who is a Republican. He fancies that he is 'mainstream'. He's not religious, thank god, but he listened to Bill O'Riley and would start any conversation about politics or life with 'you liberals, are so corrupt' We a had a short coming together at the end of the Bush regime where he actually said 'maybe it's time you liberals took over.' Obama was his man. That lasted until Obama got elected and proceeded to be just as corrupt and evil as the Republicans.

In gjohnsit's diary's comment section I noticed a lot of the Dem. partisan culture warriors sounded just like him only their ire was directed at the 'white privileged' male middle aged Republican males who are self destructing. People said these people are responsible for their own plight as they support the RW and are racists who get welfare and then blame black people. They sounded just like Obama when he lectures about how if your 'responsible' you deserve help. WTF does being responsible have to do with a culture that is all about screw or get screwed and if you sink your irresponsible?

Right now I think with both party's offering nothing more then variations on a fascist theme it's stupid and useless to fight for either side. I ain't gonna study this bogus war no more.

up
0 users have voted.
hecate's picture

you link to from DeVega makes good points:

Life is hard. When black and brown folks suffer it is quotidian and "just life as usual" in these United States. When white folks in the same cohort encounter challenges it is headline worthy in one of the country's (and world's) leading journals of record.

Ultimately, the white racial frame and white privilege are in overdrive this week.

White heroin addicts get sympathy and empathy on 60 Minutes while people of color are erased from the story--the latter is a group to be punished for drug use; the former is to be helped for they are "sick" and "made a mistake".

American society has historically been oriented around giving unearned advantages, resources, and opportunities to white folks en masse--and especially to white folks who are semi-skilled and lacking in education.

Outside observers often ask why Americans do not have a more pronounced sense of linked fate on matters of class across the color line. The answer? The white poor and working classes were given material and psychological incentives to hate and shun black and brown people.

Being "free, white, and twenty-one" still pays a ton of dividends in the United States. Alas, it would seem that having to deal with an iota of the life challenges and reduced opportunities that black and brown people have struggled with for decades and centuries on a daily basis is driving many white people to self-medicate, as well as kill themselves with pills, booze, and likely guns, ropes, and other means too.

But before one opens up the water works and rings the bell of public panic and concern, do not forget that those working class and poor whites who are killing themselves because the possessive investment in whiteness is not paying--at least to its historic gross standards--the same dividends to its owners, investors, and other beneficiaries as in years past, that white folks still have orders of magnitude more wealth, income, and other resources as compared to people of color in the same cohort.

As Louis C.K. keenly observed, being white in America is still a pretty damn good deal. If you selectively forget that fact, then you choose to overlook one of the dominant forces in American social and political life.

You write that if "you want to understand what motivates Trump's supporters you have to ask them." This is true.

More than four in 10 Republican primary voters say the most important quality in a candidate is strong leadership, which eclipses honesty, empathy, experience or electability. These voters heavily favor Mr. Trump.

In other words: Mussolini voters.

People who like Trump like bullies.

There’s one reason Trump stands out from the crowd of Republican candidates, even though they largely share his hostile opinions about women, immigrants and social progress generally: He is a loud-mouthed bully. More specifically, he’s the rich, white male bully who revels in his privilege and enjoys stomping on those with less unearned social power than he has. And the Republican base is eating it up.

[T]he only people who actually like Donald Trump are Republican primary voters, while the rest of us would probably crawl over broken glass to vote against the guy. It’s yet another sign of how much right-wing America, which has its own media and culture, is completely out of step with the rest of America. While the rest of the country has moved toward an anti-bullying mentality — as evidenced by the anti-bully bent of pop culture — right-wing media has been teaching the opposite lesson, that to be a bully is to be manly and powerful.

Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter? Where the rest of us see belligerent, screaming bullies, conservatives see their own fantasies of who they want to be, people who are rich and snooty and who enjoy pissing off the liberals as sport. In many ways, the bully is an aspirational image for many conservatives, most of who will never be as rich or as powerful as the people they emulate.

But Scut Farkus is not going to be elected president.

Americans generally view Muslims more positively than they do Trump himself . . . [W]hile nearly 60 percent of Americans view Muslims somewhat positively, about that same percentage views Trump negatively.

[A]lthough Voldemort has a net favorability rating of a little over -10 points, he's still doing better than Donald Trump, who's polling somewhere south of -20.

But the show will go on a while yet.

I suspect even Trump underestimated how stupid and credulous the conservatives supporting him would be. He’s dominated the polls for several months now without dignity or the aid of a single substantive idea or proposal – only half-baked slogans and incendiary rhetoric. And no matter how offensive he is, or who he insults, his numbers go up.

He appears completely indifferent to the consequences of his campaign. He’s made a mockery of our political process and he’s cultivated a dangerous climate with his fascistic rhetoric, and for no reason but his own self-aggrandizement.

Trump would collapse under the weight of his own shame if he were capable of that emotion. But, alas, he isn’t, and so the circus rolls on.

up
0 users have voted.

in that I should go further to qualify my diary.
Most people that will read this won't know that I was way out ahead of the pack in calling Trump a fascist, and that makes Trump's supporters fascists or at least fascist sympathizers.

However, your first quote is still the problem. You are basically saying that white people, in general, have nothing to complain about because they are white.
This is the problem with liberals in America today. Stereotyping based on race is OK as long as the race is white.
To dismiss people's obvious pain and distress because you can't set aside your stereotype is amazingly heartless and callous.
When people start killing themselves the question of whether the pain and distress ends. It exists. End of story. All that is left now is liberal dogma.

up
0 users have voted.
hecate's picture

think that's what Chauncey is saying—"that white people, in general, have nothing to complain about because they are white." I'm certainly not saying it.

And I don't think either of us are "stereotyping based on race" which "is OK as long as the race is white," or "dismiss[ing] people's obvious pain and distress" because we "can't set aside []our stereotype" which "is amazingly heartless and callous." That's a pretty strong indictment.

Neither do I believe either us would describe ourselves as "liberals." I know I don't.

up
0 users have voted.

I think that is exactly what Chauncey is saying. I think he's gone out of his way to stereotype based on white skin and to dismiss their obvious distress.

That being said, I should have been more clear that I was indicting Chauncey and not you. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

up
0 users have voted.
Shahryar's picture

No surprise that I like Cornel West and don't like Michael Eric Dyson's critique of West. Dyson has come up with pretzel logic.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/michael-eric-dyson-hillary-clinton-b...

Michael Eric Dyson: Hillary's White Privilege Will Make Her A Better President For Black Americans

"She won't have to make apologies in advance, a priori, [and say], 'It's not about black people...'" Dyson said. "Hillary Clinton doesn't bear that guilt, doesn't bear that consciousness, doesn't bear that kind of charge to be made: 'Hey, you're trying to hook up your people!' Well, black people are not her people, but she's able, as a result of white privilege, to speak to the interests of black people in ways that were denied to Barack Obama."

As Dyson explained, "sometimes President Obama didn't have permission to be black in public"

Here's the original article.. https://newrepublic.com/article/124391/yes-she-can

It makes me want to yell at the screen.

She believes the BLM activists are starting to understand that both direct action and legislative work will be needed to enact change for black folk in this country. Clinton told me about a female BLM activist she met in October in Washington, D.C., who was on the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing.

First of all, imagine the flak Bernie would get if he said BLM activists "are starting to understand". Wow. Secondly, anyone who was on a "President's Task Force" of any kind is not what I'd call one of the people.

up
0 users have voted.
Unabashed Liberal's picture

TFA buddy. IOW, another phony BLM activist.

IIRC, those two were finalists for the organization's (TFA's) $10,000 Peter Jennings Award for Civic Leadership.

So, agree--Packnet and McKesson appear to be flunkies for corporatist Dems, and for this Administration.

Neither she, nor McKesson's endorsements mean squat, IMO. Considering their backgrounds, I would think that it would be a poison pill to be endorsed by these two faux activists; by anyone on the Left, that is. So let Hillary go for it--then expose her/them.

Mollie


"Every time I lose a dog, he takes a piece of my heart. Every new dog gifts me with a piece of his. Someday, my heart will be total dog, and maybe then I will be just as generous, loving, and forgiving."--Author Unknown
up
0 users have voted.

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

joe shikspack's picture

You are basically saying that white people, in general, have nothing to complain about because they are white.

i've seen variations of de vega's argument repeated ad nauseam on the gos. what it reduces to is "you have been ignoring this same problem in the black population for years, you are only exhibiting concern because it has become a malady that white people experience. thus you don't really care about the problem, you only care about white people."

this diverts the discussion into a pointless argument about racism rather than a discussion of how, now that consciousness of the problem has been achieved, we can turn to fixing it for people of all flavors.

in its more advanced state of metastasis, the argument progresses into a mud fight about which group should be provided a remedy first.

up
0 users have voted.
mimi's picture

this diverts the discussion into a pointless argument about racism rather than a discussion of how, now that consciousness of the problem has been achieved, we can turn to fixing it for people of all flavors.

Have you ever tried? (not you personally, but the general you) Most people are not capable to fix anything for people of other flavors than their own. Because you are concerned of your own survival and advantage first, before you consider other people's survival and equality. It's just that sad.

The gos lives off the pointless arguments over -isms and the fights over it. Makes for good click statistics and boosts the players ego and importance. It's just a feature of that site. I think one has just to wait for wwwIII or the climate catastrophe til people will start working and thinking together as equal opportunity victims.

up
0 users have voted.
mimi's picture

mimi's picture

appropriately.

White middle and lower class folks in the US "feel pain" as much and as personal as "black middle and lower class folks" as individuals or ethnic minority group. It's something that is not accepted as being true or relevant by both sides. Matter of fact white poor folks have been still be more privileged as black poor folks, because of the institutional racism that was never seriously fought against by white folks of all ideological persuasions.

White socialism oriented folks believe that "the racial barrier or rifts" between black and white is more likely diminished and destroyed through social and economic equality as well as civil and human rights equality. So far that hasn't been proven to come through as being a factually true result, but it is still the best hope for bridging the inequality for most. One reason why people tend to believe a person like Bernie Sanders is for now the best hope to have. That is not dumb, but a rational consequence of not having alternatives, which is a result of your institutional and constitutional system's features.

Trump is a master in exploiting white folks human "pain" feelings and offers a seducive, malicious and very dangerous rhetoric and he plays a living example with his own CV that the "pain" of his white poorer buddies can be "cured" by not holding back to find "good" reasons for "race and ethnicity" being the culprit. He is perceived as so strong that he can afford to express the things that are too "outrageous" to say for most folks in public. Racist attitudes and policies seem to be "justified" through Trumps' logic and acceptable. There are lots of people who count on the seducive powers of saying mean and cruel things that lingers around in the hearts and minds of white folks' pains. Revenge, coolness, Schadenfreude, all of it play into it.

Same thing is pretty much true for black liberal and white liberal social democrats. They just sound so much more "compassionate, humane and all-inclusive". They know how to use the human "pain" feelings of various minority groups masterfully. Both side's "seducive powers" are amplified in horrible and dangerous ways through online, anonymous "conversations". I hesitate to call one side "dumber" than the other. I can only see one side being more capable to arouse emotions of malicious nature than the other that can lead to very dangerous consequences. The usual response to that danger is "ridicule" "mockery" and "comedy". It's not for no reason that the "comedians" have the high times of their careers these days, because if you make a joke and poke fun on any serious issue, you can still "talk about serious issues", but not in a serious manner. That sometimes makes me being tired and angry of endless comedians while exposing a problem at the same time distracting from the seriousness of a problem.

I think the one sentence I really can agree with in jjohnsit's diary most is the last one:

For very different reasons and motives, both liberals and conservatives are in denial here, which means this political crisis is likely to get worse before it gets better. Trump is likely to only be the start of a trend.

And with a little bit of bad luck the "getting worse" of the crisis can avalanche pretty fast. And then everyone will ask: How could this happen?

up
0 users have voted.
shaharazade's picture

How could this happen? since Bush2 got selected. The avalanche is already burying us all, globally. Hard to stop it, or even recognize that your living is an ongoing avalanche that's picking up speed as it sweeps across the planet and lays us all to waste.

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name,
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste

up
0 users have voted.
NCTim's picture

Meh

up
0 users have voted.

The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -

gulfgal98's picture

It is always strange to me that if you ever hear an interview with Susan Tedeschi, her voice is so different from the gritty bluesy singing voice that she has. I cannot say enough about Derek Trucks, both as a guitarist and as band leader. He is one of the keepers of the flame and he takes it very seriously.

up
0 users have voted.

Do I hear the sound of guillotines being constructed?

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ~ President John F. Kennedy

shaharazade's picture

there has always been a constant 25-30% of pig ignorant, authority loving, anti-democratic, bigoted, white working class, haters of 'other'. They have been pandered to by all sides of the political ruling class. As a young hippie I felt their wrath many times. My ex-father in law was the chief of police in a up-scale suburban town, he was middle aged working class and although uneducated not stupid. He hated hippies and said he had a hard time not punching them out when he passed the long haired anti-American freaks on the street. Strange because his youngest son was a long hair socialist freak. The police chief was not a Republican he was a Democrat although not at all liberal. . Was he a racist? Hard to tell as there we're no black to be found people for miles in white priveleged Lake Oswego.

The culture war has been fanned for decades and it now seems to be threatening to engulf us all. Why do these hateful ignorant authoritarian people have enough political power to set the tune we all end up dancing to? I think the Democratic bogus progressive/liberals who own and run the D party are complicit with the scary crazed right wing. The middle aged disenfranchised white dudes who are dying are collateral damage in the cooked up culture war. Their fear and hatred has been directed at the 'other' and racism has blossomed. It suits the masters of the universe to foster racism, 'family values' religious fanaticism , sexism, rather then have people focus on the rampant racist, classist, fascism that makes up the mutual agenda of both parties.

I agree with you on this gjohnsit Trump's popularity is a symptom. So is Hillary's inevitability and the insanity of so called Dem. liberal progressives insisting that she is a lesser evil or will be the champion who will slay the truly evil Republican lunatics. Me I think she is a stone killer psychopath and every bit as fascistic as Trump . Not a raving demagogue like Trump but in a way that makes her more dangerous. I cannot for the life of me figure out why POC self identify with the Clinton's, or for that matter women. It takes a lot of villages to keep their Foundation profitable (Haiti?) and lot's of droning and bombing to wipe out those evil doing extremist's and their children.

I also don't understand the authoritarian mind set of supporting the anti-democratic elitist ruling class that regardless of which race, gender, demographic or age you are means you, our society and the world harm. They work hard to keep the story line all about beating/blaming the other or punishing the other and yet it matters little which side wins. Which is worse a demagogue who want's to build giant walls or a wolf in liberal clothing who calls their racist immigration policy with it's prisons for profit and rampant deportation, reform?

As for Bill Maher he's a sexist, racist, violent, mean spirited comedian who may be funny sometimes but he is the epitome of a white privileged middle aged male. He may not be angry or suicidal why would he be he's rich and has power. He's a winner in the race to the top. He's got a lot of nerve mocking white men who are killing themselves while he advocates for the liberals who are not liberal and benefit from the misery and death that all of our ruling political class implement.

Misdirection, misinformation, delusion, have worked well for both the demagogue Republican right wingers and the so called rational moderate Democratic fascist's. Lesser evil my ass. Mocking the 'losers' in this sick game be they white, black, or of any gender is also a symptom of our cruel, fascistic, violent, culture that is carefully cultivated by both sides in this farce of democracy.

My millennial granddaughter sent me this version of this song. The pain inflicted on all humans and the planet by these evil fucks is what is truly scary. It's scary because people have been deluded into thinking this state of the world is 'inevitable'. Enough is enough as that old, white privileged Bernie says.

I hope you do publish this on dkos. I'll certainly rec it.

up
0 users have voted.
Unabashed Liberal's picture

so I can comment further, when I've got more time.

Mollie


"Vision without action is a daydream. Action without vision is a nightmare."--Japanese Proverb
up
0 users have voted.

Everyone thinks they have the best dog, and none of them are wrong.

lotlizard's picture

A lot of ordinary Germans feel caught in a squeeze, and the older ones among them have already felt that way for twenty years …

They keep being told by the political and economic elite that they're going to benefit …
from reunification …
from the euro …
from immigration …
from multiculturalism …
from trade agreements …
from more and more new members in the E.U. …
from following the U.S. on foreign policy and military matters …

And then, instead of said benefits materializing, there is one crisis after another.

And they see their standard of living keep declining and slipping away …

And to top it off, to them it seems like every other interest group is out there organizing and protesting, but as soon as they do it they get called bigots and neo-Nazis.

up
0 users have voted.
mimi's picture

(away from Germany more or less since 1980) ...

1. benfits from reunification: yes, the business of my (German formerly huge family) did benefit from that, tremendously. I guess that's not the folks (Western business), who should have benefited, but the "Easterners / ossies". So, the question is, what did the "Westerners" do wrong that the "Easterners" didn't feel the reunification was a benefit for them?

2. benefits from the euro: none at all, everyone lost purchasing power with the introduction of the euro (vs. German Mark)

3. benefits from immigration: I have no idea what the benefits were, nor do I know what the disadvantages would have been. I am always puzzled that people think it's a good idea to "buy" immigrants to work for them, instead of making sure the local "natives" learn enough to produce what a country needs. All I know is that most folks don't get over their feelings of greed or envy, if someone they think hasn't deserved to benefit (in their minds the "foreign immigrants" most of the time). So, the so-called melting pot diversity that is always propagated is imo mostly an emotionally phony statement. Seldom is it a true result of immigration. If it is the case though, it's great. It just doesn't happen a lot. As soon as folks are economically challenged and lose privileges they had, it's pretty much over. Sorry, to be that "negatively" thinking. Daily life in the so-called diverse melting pot societies feels ... pretty segregated to me. Which is really a pain in the ... behind. How to overcome those emotions is something, I guess, nobody has figured out yet. Other than good will and trying, there is not much going on. People tend to stick to "their own kind", which are those they grew up with. Tough luck for those, who grew up with nobody around to stick with.

4. from multiculturalism: yes, it's nice to be exposed to other cultures as long as it is through art and music etc. We have that in abundance everywhere now through new technologies.

5. from trade agreements: who understands those anyhow. When the average citizen is able to look behind what is making their profits go up or down, it's usually too late.

6. more and more members of the EU: oh boy, there ain't something like that, Europe is an artificial construct, in my mind. United States is the same as ONE European country with it's internal "Laender". But whoever wants to come in, let 'em in and then watch how they all start to fight each other and quarrel over their "EU responsibilities" they don't want to get engaged in. Now we see how fast they can tighten the borders again and all the kumbaya of European mono-culturalism and socio-economic integration is falling apart as soon as there are some strong "Eastern/Middle Eastern winds" blowing over.

7. benefits following the US on foreign policy and military matters: Are you kidding the Europeans? Oh boy, what could go wrong? I hear the same arguments I heard in 2001 - Germans should become more engaged and take their responsibilities militarily more seriously. They tickle the German's guilt feelings again. I wonder how long this will be working. My hunch is, it won't work for ever. The youth might be sick and tired of the "Good German / enabler of fascism" sort of accusations. But I am sure they will have other seductive arguments to pull the youth over to support "tough military coolness" again. Help us, God, not again the same shit.

That's just simple mimi's Sunday morning reactions. May be I need a coffee. I am tired of the shit. I heard one extended family member over in Germany saying that most of the "refugees" are not poor and most of them are well educated. I remember from the seventies and eighties how another extended family member couldn't understand "how Iranian immigrants" were supposedly poor, but always dressed as if they came just out of the latest, high-end boutique with their clothes. Stuff like that is what makes up the "emotional segregation" possible. Oh, and of course, when a bunch of sub-sahara immigrants cluster in some "mono-cultural" German little towns or neighborhoods, they don't like how they "treat the (German) women" (nowadays the argue over the Muslim's treating their own women badly as well). It was also a similar reactions when the first Russians with German ancestry could immigrate to Germany. Those Russians ... were somehow "dangerously" gang-ish.

Oh, well, I am going back to bed and sleep my negativity away. Have to go on and DO something positive, otherwise I am going nuts..

HI, lotlizard, I hope you are healthy and well over there ... glad you comment again here. It's very nice to hear your opinions and voice and sources.

up
0 users have voted.