This is what I was afraid of
Two weeks ago I wrote Androphobia: Fear of Men.
It got an interesting mix of responses. Some responses amounted to saying that I was over-reacting. To which my response is "I'll believe my own lying eyes over your opinion. Thank you very much."
Then today I saw this article.
Now the cascading accusations were reaching deep into the heart of the mainstream media. Charlie Rose … Matt Lauer … Mark Halperin … even liberal outlets like NPR and the New Republic were not spared. For that matter, not even the New Yorker and the New York Times were spared: At the Times, star political reporter Glenn Thrush is under investigation, and the New Yorker has just fired its star political reporter, Ryan Lizza, over “improper sexual conduct.”Some of these cases were clearly and inexcusably abusive – the actions egregious and the corroborating accounts damning.
Others, however, were less clear.
OK. That's to be expected.
But keep reading.
Normally when a publication decides to fire a reporter for cause, it does one of two things: It quietly announces their departure without stating a reason, giving the reporter some room to find another job; or, when the malfeasance may have impacted the reporting, it announces exactly why the person was fired, publishes the results of the internal investigation, and makes it clear which stories are being corrected or rescinded as a result of the reporter’s misbehavior.The New Yorker did neither; after what appears to have been a fairly brief investigation, it announced that Lizza was a sexual abuser, but left the rest of us to guess at what sort of abuse might be involved. Lizza, meanwhile, says: “The New Yorker has decided to characterize a respectful relationship with a woman I dated as somehow inappropriate. The New Yorker was unable to cite any company policy that was violated. … This decision, which was made hastily and without a full investigation of the relevant facts, was a terrible mistake”.
Tavis Smiley of PBS reports a similar experience:
PBS launched a so-called investigation of me without ever informing me. … Only after being threatened with a lawsuit, did PBS investigators reluctantly agree to interview me for three hours.
If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us. The PBS investigators refused to review any of my personal documentation, refused to provide me the names of any accusers, refused to speak to my current staff, and refused to provide me any semblance of due process to defend myself against allegations from unknown sources. Their mind was made up. Almost immediately following the meeting, this story broke in Variety as an “exclusive.” Indeed, I learned more about these allegations reading the Variety story than the PBS investigator shared with me, the accused, in our 3 hour face to face meeting.
Now, I don’t know the truth of Smiley’s or Lizza’s cases; I don’t have enough detail to form an opinion. And yet, that in itself seems disturbing. It seems safe to say that few of these men will ever work in journalism again; there is a blacklist, and unless they can conclusively clear themselves, most of their names are on it.
Just like I said two weeks ago, you don't date, flirt, or do anything that can ever be interpreted as informal with a female coworker. Not anymore. Not unless you want to risk destroying your career.
Blacklisting people so cavalierly is hard to defend. But with “believe all women” the order of the day, that’s effectively the new regime we’re looking at. No outlet wants to be deemed insufficiently concerned with sexual abuse. And even if a company were willing to endure the public outrage, its lawyers seem likely to advise against it. After all, if you hire the guy who got accused of sexual harassment, and he does it again, the company is going to be on the hook for a whole lot of money.
This is what I was talking about before, when the woman lawyer described what sexual harassment was in a legal sense. She wasn't lying and she wasn't wrong.
If the woman feels uncomfortable then it's sexual harassment. End of story.
That's how employers approach it. It's about liabilities, not right and wrong.
What is actually true is secondary in importance. It costs them virtually nothing to destroy a man's career, but it could be a huge risk to stand behind him.
What do you think an employer is going to do?
Some people don't want to believe that, but that's on them.
Ultimately the norm of reflexively believing every accusation, and meting out harsh treatment to every man who is accused, does grave harm to the cause of fighting rape and harassment. #BelieveAllWomen elides the messy reality that women, like the rest of humanity, aren't always telling the truth—and that even when they are, their interpretations of events is not always the most reasonable one. If we reify too many weak or false claims, the norm will quickly slide toward "believe no women."
That's where she is wrong. We are a long, LONG ways away from "believe no women."
That day may arrive one day, but it probably won't arrive during the remaining years of my career. In the meantime, men better get used to the new normal.
Comments
I rarely get a response
to my "hello... " from women under 30. Most keep their eyes lowered and keep on moving, fearful, I'm guessing, that my hello means I want to violently rape them or, at the very least, is an unwelcomed gesture making them uncomfortable at best. Most women over 40, on the other hand, respond with a hello of their own. On the other hand, one of the workers at my gym (25-ish, blond, cutie), Always gives me a "hey, Wink! another two miles?" Now, she's known me for ten years or so (but only at my workplace), since she was a kid. But that might be the difference. Must be strange, at least, for under 30 women to be fearful of a simple greeting.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
I noticed the same all the way in the late 70s.
I used to say that the "proper" response to "hello" was "GET AWAY FROM ME YOU PERVERT!!!" for years I thought that there was something wrong with me, that I was presenting myself as somehow threatening (I have abandonment issues and can look needy)But it wasn't me. It was fear, fear which had gone so far as to no longer care to be rational, to become hatred. I didn't see it in my working class high school, but I saw it universally in my middle class liberal arts college, and as the 80s progressed I saw it grow and grow. Today I am literally afraid to be in a room alone with a woman.
On to Biden since 1973
I suppose it could be fear
but I think the simpler answer is you have nothing to offer them; they have nothing to gain by engaging, even with polite indifference, with you. Don't get me wrong - I'm in the same boat!
I've been grappling with the uncomfortable notion lately that the women (singly and as part of couples) that my wife and I consider "our friends" are really just her friends. She's constantly getting invited to have "girls nite out" drinks and I think What gives?!? I like hanging out with all these people. How is their fun enhanced by excluding their spouses?
Because I know for certain that I would not have more fun doing anything without my wife, nor would I have more fun being exclusively in the company of men. In fact, the idea that I would seems preposterous!
Of course, nobody wants to give me an honest answer, and I'm starting to think that most women have a need in their lives for just a single male - their personal penis-supplier and pickle-jar-opener - and the rest of us can go to hell.
"you have nothing to offer them"
oowww!
What the backlash looks like
holiday parties
Florida
California
This last example I want to highlight. Basically these female lobbyists have blackmailed the senator with threats to make sure he doesn't do what he, and his coworkers, want to do - feel safe and comfortable while working.
Yeh, that'll go over well. I'm sure that it sends the right message. I'm sure it will encourage men to respect women and want them around [/snark].
yep. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
@gjohnsit
On the other hand, wasn't some Cheney-mentored Vice President, who happened to be Dark Ages religious and to evidently believe that women were property of men who should control their bodies and life choices, saying that he would never be alone with a woman in any business or nonpersonal context, thereby shutting women out of any career lines requiring personal contact, as The Good Lord Intended Back In Dino-riding Days? Could this be, at least in part, conditioning people to accept that women - sexual and untrustworthy creatures that they are - just can't have better-paying careers and had best revert to their designated Old Testament roles?
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
Excellent point, Ellen North!
I'll be stoned to death in a public forum for being naked, before I wear The Handmaid's Tale garb, though.
Of course you get
no answer from the whiners. I'm pretty sick and tired of men whining about this. Until they walk in a woman's shoes they can just stfu about the subject.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
right out of the chute.
you aren't even responding to a man.
I was interested to see what set you off.
You came here with "whiners" and "STFU".
boy, oh boy.
Deja told me downthread my "hostility" was showing.
@Deja- your pal came to the party in a real bad mood, did she not?
Irishking
Please read JtC's essay. I have a feeling you're about to get a message from the moderators if you keep this up. Just sayin'. And yes, RA might too (though she's not commenting on this particular essay now), but I know, for a fact that she read it, because she commented.
https://caucus99percent.com/content/mother-all-destroyers-updated
And someone apparently
believes that the diarist 'overreacted.'
dfarrah
@Wink
So wink, do you greet strange men in the morning? How do they respond? Break it into age brackets for me, please. Start w/ the under 30's.
I'm old now Wink, retired, but when I was young & took public transit to work I got plenty of "acknowledgement" from men on the street.
That I fucking ignored them had nothing to do w/ my fear of ANYTHING. To me, guys like you were just random strange men on the street.
Rude strange men who thought nothing of interrupting my thoughts or a conversation w/ my young son.
We don't fear the men who "greet" us we just want them to stop.
I say hello to everyone.
Male, female, young, old... if they have a pulse and are coming my way I nod and say hello. It's the way I was brought up. It's called being polite. I also call it acknowledging someone who likely hasn't been acknowledged all friggin' day. This is, after all, a cold cruel world. I find it to be generational. Even guys under 30 say nothing these days. Over 40 guys usually do. I just find it odd that "kids" these days blow off a simple greeting as if to say "fuck you!" Or, "how Dare you greet me! just who do you think you are?!"
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Rethink!
Perhaps some of the things we were taught were polite, wink.
You seem to believe humanity should be grateful for your morning nods & greetings and that we who won't respond are found wanting.
We were all taught enough horsecrap as kids that I think we have a responsibility to sort it through.
Women have had good reason to fear men throughout history & if you now, as a man, feel threatened by women speaking up, perhaps even dishonestly, then I say, well, it was bound to happen. Actually, seems a bit late. . .
I do too.
By my grandmother, chiefly.
I didn't see any evidence of that in the comment...even after going back to look for it specifically.
"I’m a human being, first and foremost, and as such I’m for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.” —Malcolm X
@Wink
I used to smile at everyone; they used to smile back. But I had a few too many guys, here and there, apparently think it meant I wanted to boink them (and seriously ask why did I smile at them if I didn't); sad state of affairs when friendly courtesy between one's fellow-humans and passing a smile around (often works kinda like a chain letter, only nicer, lol,) triggers some to simply think that they can get something out of it... live and learn. But it sucks, as smiles/friendly greetings are just as contagious as frowns and can change your mood and day for the better.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
I need to think about this a lot more.
I worked where I was the only female in more than one job and had no problems. I enjoyed working with those people. But I know harassment happens, and not just in high profile places. I know a couple of young married women working in minimum wage jobs who left those jobs because of sexual harassment by their bosses.
Some of what is happening now is wrong, just wrong, in how these things are being handled. The whole issue needs balance, and fairness to accusers and accused.
We can all agree to that
But the geni is out of the bottle.
I think we are headed toward a chaperone culture at work.
Chaperone culture
only for a few months. It costs too much. Instead we'll go to an "all surveillance all the time" culture where all
slavesemployees are recorded every minute of the work day. Any gap in the surveillance log will indicate guilt, except in the case of a police cam "malfunction" during which a civilian was killed."The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
"A species that is hurtling toward extinction has no business promoting slow incremental change." -- Caitlin Johnstone
@Granma So right.
So right.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
ok, do I get this right this time?
if you want to get rid of an old male politician or truth digging journalist or TV show host, who says something you don't like, one would produce some women, who claim he had harassed them. It works, as it's shown by the examples in this essay.
Now, what can we do to get rid of an old female politician or truth digging female journalist or TV show host? How about one would produce some men who would "come out" and claim they have been harassed by women? I would love to see, if that would work the same way. If it would work, I would say...
I read about the PBS firing of Tavis Smiley and had some comment in my fingertips to post here whenever it was - yesterday or the day before yesterday, I get nuts over the time zones between Europe, US East Coast, US West Coast, Hawaii, clocks on C99p, clocks on my comments etc. - But after the debacle I had with user 'on the cusp', I just said to myself forget about it, I will never get it right.
From your writing:
I doubt it is the end of the story. The lawyer wasn't wrong and she wasn't lying, but the only difference probably between the two cases is, that most men might not feel uncomfortable being
harassed/seduced sexually by a woman.
I think I am not wrong and I am not lying either. Am I?
May be the solution would be to elect some Japanese robots into Congress and some pole dancing marionettes as harassing journalists. They are so damn insensitive to never feel 'uncomfortable'.
What is good for the gander is good for the goose.
These unintended consequences, don't you love them?
With apologies to gjohnsit and all writers here who have talked about these issues. I forget who wrote what and have difficulties to connect what someone wrote with their names. That's my brain turning into a muddy pudding due to age. Sorry.
It's one of those issues I don't like to discuss, because no matter what I would say, it's always wrong.
I want my ..
https://www.euronews.com/live
mimi...
You can change your time zone by going to My Account/Edit, scroll down t the "Local Settings" and change it to Hawaii's time zone if that's where you are at. That should help you with time/clock issue.
Thank you, I am just too lazy
to switch back and forth, because I crossed the time zones between HI and Germany too often. My inner clock is still in the MD East Coast zone and when I am in Germany, I just hate to have to read the EB after midnight and being too tired. And if I am in HI I am always too late to say anything. Now if the earth would be flat, that would be ... fantastico
...
https://www.euronews.com/live
It's often not about bad behavior
For example: one guy at work tells another guy at work a raunchy joke. They thought they were alone, but a young woman overheard it.
She mentions it to her boss or HR, thinking that the guy will just get lectured. Instead the company freaks out and fires him, ruining his life.
The young woman feels bad, but is too embarrassed to speak out. Besides, it is no longer under her control anyway.
End of the day: One guy gets his life ruined. All the men at work get paranoid. No real sexual harassment was defeated.
Another example is in my comments above.
Guys don't want to have drinks with female lobbyists because of the sexual harassment scare.
Female lobbyists find out and threaten to out them in public for gender discrimination. Guys relent under this blackmail, and are now forced to associate with people they don't want to.
Victory over sexual harassment? Not likely. It'll only cause resentment against women in general.
agree, it's sad and bad
I think I will boycott lobbyists...
I can't help but make silly comments, because it's a difficult thing to talk about. Just to illustrate the difference in perception between some Germans and some Americans.
A long time ago, we (German TV studio in Washington DC) had an American younger female intern (very well educated) and she was told to work with me at my desk for a week or so.
Now, we watched the TV pool feed which showed some pictures of Angela Merkel, while she was in Washington DC (I don't remember anymore the year, but must have been between 2009 - 2012 ?). Somehow Merkel's suit's jacket was of a more lightweight fabric, so with a very sharp eye and a lot of interest in certain things, you could see Merkel's nippels peaking up under the fabric. The young woman got very upset and told me that this is not an appropriate way to dress and that Merkle lacks seriousness and professionalism. Oooohkaayyy ... I couldn't believe what she said and didn't know, if I should laugh or cry and ended up saying nothing, but admit having been quite happy when she finally had to switch to another co-workers desk in our studio.
I hope when Angela Merkel visits Trump in Spring 2018 that she doesn't dress up too 'risqué'. Who knows what could happen ... May be Merkel should inquire about breast binding bandages. Amazon will deliver on time and that would be the first time I would be grateful to Amazon for their services./s
https://www.euronews.com/live
The time George Bush gave Angela Merkel an unsolicited back rub
at a summit meeting while the cameras were rolling — weird, no? But people just laughed, “Well, that’s Bush for you,” — he got a pass.
O.K., it was more of a shoulder massage than a back rub, but imagine what would happen if Trump did that? All heck would break loose.
It's sad to read through the comments here
I do not want to name names, but some comments by some were just according to what I thought those users would say, before the issues ever were talked about in the main stream media and online. Let's say, if you follow a user's comment into the swamp, don't expect not to sink into it yourself and have difficulties to get out of it. Or in other words, don't expect to not wake up with fleas, after you slept with the dogs, or be dragged out of the muddy swamp like a Christmas angel in a white robe, all clean.
Misbehaving badly at a workplace is one thing women get very frustrated about and they would like that someone would be able to stop the person from misbehaving. As that almost never happens, the woman is a victim of the situation that 1. she can't get help to reign in the perpetrator and 2. if she does resent directly and openly, she has to fear for repercussions at her job.
What imo is overlooked in all of this, is which media tool enables whom to claim victim status or the reverse allow victimization of non-violently misbehaving men up to the point professional careers are destroyed. If a woman claims to be violently victimized by rape, she has to prove it and that is already traumatic enough, especially as labs often don't do their jobs properly, or not at all. If a man complains about being sexually harassed or molested by a woman, I wonder how he would have to prove that he was violently physically harmed. I have not heard yet, that women can physically harm a man by 'making unwanted passes on him'. But I learned here that there are cases where women's complaints can make men fearful for their professional careers. It's telling that the NYT just now writes about a case like that? The timing is ... oh well, just on time, I guess.
It's the TV news media and the online social media platforms that allow any sort of misuse and abuse on the psychological level, but if the claims are made against persons, whose work is in the political, media or journalism field, the media platforms just invite any kind of abuse or misuse.
So, I would say, it's alright to question women's motives when they accuse politicians or media celebrities they need for their own professional advancement. Through the media platforms they have power other women have not. Having power means that power will be abused. Therefore I think it is very justified to question and challenge those women's motives as compared to women, who never have the power to get help defending themselves against unwanted sexual advances. They would need help and don't get it. And I also fear that the media coverage and discussions about the women who "come out" against politicians or media celebs, will not help those women, who suffer under unwanted advances and potential threats alone, those women, who have no power and access to the media.
Just saying ... the unintended and unexpected consequences of potentially intentional misuse of media access is something one should watch out for and challenge. YMMV. Just my 0,01 Euros.
PS: The shoulder message Merkel got from GWB? Just as unprofessionally done as other things GWB did. Who cares? Weirdo is what weirdo does.
https://www.euronews.com/live
Those are also good points. n/t
American Nipple Phobia
is one of those things that seems utterly insane until you consider the motivations behind it. It's still not logically reasoned, but it has been cultivated to a very particular sex-negative purpose.
Feminists used to proudly disdain the bra until they decided gender relations were a zero-sum game. If men liked it, then it must be a bad thing for women.
The Religious Right was always horrified at the image of a sexually free woman. Less religious, but socially craven women despise other women who refuse to adequately commodify their sexuality - those who "give away the candy store" instead of withholding it for maximum pay-off. Slut-shaming is very much the province of these two types.
Corporatists have a financial incentive to keep the public sexually frustrated and unfulfilled, so they can sell the "solution" to their problems. They don't make a cent off of people freely sharing themselves with each other.
Contrary to notions of actual comfort or health, American women submit to the discomfort of the bra for the primary reason of modesty. It is the western equivalent of the Burqua. A woman will insist that she "just feels more comfortable" wearing a bra, and then bitch and moan about it until she can finally take it off at the end of the day.
bing!
And, no doubt that the only purpose of a bra is modesty. Nothing wrong with modesty, but why buy a $24 bra when one can buy a scarf for $7 ? Just wrap 'em up in a scarf instead. Gotta be Way more comfortable than a bra. And easier for us guys to dispense with.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
@FutureNow
And yet, male nipples are just fine...
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
bing!
And there really is no answer for women. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. They want a level playing field, and that means having drinks with the men (where many deals are initiated if not closed). But, men no longer feel comfortable with a woman or women present for fear they'll end up on Huffington Post.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
"not all men..."
I've learned that there are times to just shut up and listen.
When this #metoo started I saw a lot of guys saying "you're right, those men are terrible". But maybe the best thing is to sit back and consider how much of "those men" is in us. 50%? 10%? 5%? and try to eliminate that behavior.
A voice of reason, Sharhyar
Thank you!
You, and Big Al are just a couple of the men around here who add volumes to, not only this uncomfortable subject, but also this site.
Many thanks to you both.
@Shahryar The #YesAllWomen
The #YesAllWomen movement was helpful to me. But then created a horrible, vicious backlash, which, interestingly enough, ended my association with Daily Kos.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Comfort
You wrote "most men might not feel uncomfortable being harassed/seduced sexually by a woman".
I can't speak for most men, but I've been in situations more than once where a woman tried to seduce me and I found it very uncomfortable. Unwanted sexual advance means just that -- it's unwanted.
Despite the male stereotype, I don't think most men are eager to jump into bed at any time with any woman.
I would like to find out
how many men have been subjected to the same.
So maybe a men's metoo needs to be started.
(no, this isn't snark - women are aggressive, too)
dfarrah
You do it like this
This seems to work quite well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/us/andrea-ramsey-harassment.html
I've been waiting for this to start spreading. Frankly I thought it would take a bit longer, but then this is the digital age.
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons - For thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
I think you're concentrating on the wrong conclusion
How about we poke around and come up with some statistics on corollaries between conviction rates of rape cases in the last 200 years and the frequencies of the victim being victimized by the entire penal process? Or more precisely, the corrollary between defendants who have the financial means to use the media to impugn the accusers reputation and the conviction rates that follow as a consequence?
Frankly, I have no idea what this recent spate of accusations hopes to achieve, or what the motivation is behind them, but it seems that the potential backlash from the "believing all women" movement may very well share similar ties to the backlash that was felt from the Affirmative Action movement. In both cases the "wrongs" of the present are intractably tied to a history of hundreds of years of oppression by a class of people who felt they were entitled to do what ever the fuck they wanted.
So, perhaps we should be having two separate arguments that include both the past and the present.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I personally don't care about the rich and powerful
being brought low by an accusation of sexual harassment.
They are both the ones most likely to be guilty of the charge, and the ones who "historically oppressed".
The problem is that this doesn't stop there by any means.
I care about some poor shmuck who finds himself guilty of not understanding the situation, or using a poor choice of words, or simply being in the company of someone with a chip on their shoulder.
These things I understand because I've been guilty/victim of all of these things.
When you are poor working class in this country you operate without a safety net. One innocent mistake can ruin everything. And no one will even have any sympathy for you because it was your mistake for letting your guard down.
Your concern for the "poor schmucks" is understandable
But I wonder, would you also include our very own "Wink", who brags on this site about ogling girls young enough to be his granddaughter, who doesn't understand how "men are able to keep it in their pants" due to their "caveman instincts", and who has also marveled out loud why "women aren't raped more" in your concern of men being misunderstood? If so, maybe someone close to him should have a talk to him about his tone deafness and his habit of putting his foot in his mouth in this new environment you are so worried about.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I would say
Wink. Buddy. It's ok to have twisted thoughts. Even sjw feminists have them. But don't say them out loud. If you're unsure then stfu like I sometimes do.
But if you want me to police Wink or anyone else here you are barking up the wrong tree. I like to be offended sometimes. I think it's healthy. Our society has a stick up it's ass
Perhaps this drive by thought of yours
In response to a fellow blogger who wonders why "women aren't raped more" might warrant further clarification for any of us walking out the door wearing a vagina?
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Are you kidding me?
Have you seriously never had a twisted thought? You've never pictured yourself, say, beating an enemy into a pulp? Screwing over someone you love? Maybe something even worse?
Is your mind pure?
If so, then F YOU!
My mind isn't pure. I have twisted thoughts.
I'm OK with that, because I recognize them as being twisted. Humans are like that.
If your mind isn't pure, OTOH, then you aren't in any position to be judging my thoughts.
I thought it would be helpful
To unpack your meaning in your use of the word "ok" in your reply. Specifically, in what way is it "ok" for "Wink" to believe that mere randomness is keeping his dick in his pants when he sees a 20 ish year old girl working out at the gym? Because that is how I am interpreting his "caveman instinct" thesis on why women are raped in the first place.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
I know it's hard for
and other women, maybe, to believe that the sentiments expressed by Wink are the sentiments of (at least) 60% (if not 85%) of single males over 17, but... I'm on the "normal" or "majority" side of that line. That's like saying 17 year old girls don't fantasize over being "raped" by the latest pop star. Raw, physical tear-her-clothes-off s-e-x. But she, zoebear, confuses thoughts with action. Hell, if men acted on every thought or impulse there would be a helluva lot more cars in body shops! I've thanked God many a time for leaving the telephone pole unscathed.
Women are raped becuz they can be. Simple as that. Even if caught perps rarely serve time, usually walk. We just don't think of rape here in the U.S.A. as a big deal, do everything to diss the victim, defend the perp. Want to end rape? Do what they do in Germany: One, legalize prostitution. Two, lock up guilty perps for a Very long time. Like 25 to Life. Amazing how quickly rape disappears when they lock up the rapists. As for the ass grabbing in the office... I don't know that that ever goes away without accosted women bashing perps in the face. Right there in front of everybody. But don't confuse thoughts with action. One rarely, if ever, leads to the other. And almost every guy over the age of 17 (or younger) has those /similar thoughts. And, yes, it's amazing more women aren't raped. It's only due to millenia of "civilizing" our male butts that we keep those thoughts to ourselves. And keep it zipped. I don't know, maybe you're expecting a kinder, gentler version of the male species, but at the end of the day we're mostly cave men. We want meat, beer, sex. We dress better, smell better, but... are cave men just the same. We're just not that complicated.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
That was not your original argument
Your original argument was that men are not far removed from cavemen and their behavior is driven by their "instinctual" sexual predilections. Are you now saying normal male sexual behavior can be conditionally driven? Which by the very definition implied in the cognitive abilities of the Neanderthal contradicts your entire blithering argument.
You are either a caveman whose behavior is driven by instinct. Or you are a human being capable of conditional reasoning. Cherry picking your "thesis" from both classifications is not only the most intellectually lazy argument I've heard on this subject, but unbelievably tedious to engage in on every imaginable level.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
zoebear...
see my comment directly below this one. This back and forth between you and Wink in essay after essay is getting tedious. I understand your position and truly respect it but I want it to stop. Please?
I will respect your request
But feel as if the disgusting comments made here should not have gone unchallenged. It is rare when I call another member out, but the silence from seemingly the entire community over his remarks just sickened me.
I will take a break from visiting this blog and decide if this is a place I want to spend what little free time I have. Appreciate your position. No hard feelings.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Thank you (edited)...
moderating a discussion board is no easy task, especially when open discussion is afforded. How long do I let it go? How do I step in without pissing everyone off? Should I even step in in lieu of the said open discussion tenet?
I hope to be wise enough to do this moderation thing but sometimes I just don't know.
Edit to add: I don't wish to thwart your engagement in this subject with other members of this site. It's an important issue that needs aired out. It's just that this back and forth with Wink and yourself has gone on over several essays with no advancement in understanding.
We are bleeding members over this issue and as always my first concern is the health of this site. Maybe I'm wrong but I just want to tamp down some of the acrimony without squelching the discussion.
I hope that's understandable.
Yes, it is understandable
From your POV and your focus on the site as a whole. I truly don't envy your position in situations such as this.
As far as furthering an understanding on the topic at hand, I, too would've preferred the "conversation" move in that direction. I may not have helped in that regard with my own comments, but in the brunt of the ignorant and ugly remarks I bared witness to, it felt too far backwards for me to bend in order to reach a more sanguine place in the dialogue. I hope you understand my position as well.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Yes, I do understand...
and I hope the words between the lines I have written bespeak that position.
You have every right to feel the way you do
about the silence of the community regarding Wink’s disrespectful and provocative comments. But it doesn’t mean that there aren’t many here (female and male) who stand silently beside you. I think there are many of us who chose to remain silent for a variety of reasons, but whose sentiments are sympathetic to yours.
I just wanted to say this in the hope that you will consider re-evaluating the silence. I don’t think it is necessarily a reflection of a lack of support or understanding. But yes, it is also a valid criticism of the absence of a larger, more genuinely open and more meaningful discourse. And that is of course difficult in this limited and anonymous context.
Been silent here.
Not present enough (busy life) to carry on a protracted debate at this moment. In fact, for an issue that's so fucking obvious it seems abusive to expect it to be channeled into the confines of a civil debate. But facing off the cavemen, and standing with their victims, are many of us at this site and beyond. I'm only one of them.
There are real differences between men
and women, proven scientifically.
I would suggest that you study some of this material.
dfarrah
Wink...
will you just fucking knock it off. Are you getting off pissing some of our members off?
I've let this go on long enough so will you just please stop and let it fucking rest.
Would love to. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Wink,
I personally find it difficult to relate to what seem like to me flippant remarks. I wish you would give more consideration to what and how you say what you feel. Then, I might find it easier to understand and respond to you.
One reason the right-wing populists have scored wins in Germany
is the increased incidence of sexual harassment and rape on the part of male migrants from North Africa and the Middle East, upsetting the relative social stability Germany previously enjoyed on this front.
The politically correct mainstream in Germany was stubbornly determined to remain in denial about this, until the events of Cologne New Year’s Eve 2015-2016 forced it into public awareness as a topic for political discussion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany
Yeah, I was there
in the '70s. Had the "pleasure" of escorting a G.I. Joe convicted of raping his German "girlfriend" off to the local (Mannheim) German prison. I knew it would be a Long time before he got out. I thought then (and still do) that Germany does it right. Legalize prostitution and send convicted rapists off to the Big House for a Long time. Rape reduced substantially. But, we're still
prudesPuritans here in the U.S., so... fat chance we'll ever see that. I can see the RW Televangelists now. Is sad that that balance in Germany has been messed with with the intrusion of refugees of a culture that never left the cave days. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that behavior right here in the U.S. as we bring more refugees from "countries" that regard women as property.the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Jesus Wink
Rape has nothing to do with sex! It's power over the person they are raping.
I've stayed silent about this issue, but I find your comments on this very disturbing and distasteful. I have much more to say about your comments, but I'll leave it at this.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.
~Hannah Arendt
That's what the women
libbers of the '70s and '80s would have us believe. And, there's some, if not a lot, of truth to that. No argument from me. But, rape isn't just all about power. There Is a sexual component too. There was a post right here on C99 that essentially said what I just said. That dismissing sex from rape is b.s. Fact is, legalized prostitution (along with hard sentences) reduced rape in Germany substantially. To the point where it's not tolerated there. Rapists get locked up. And, I would suggest to those currently calling for whatever they're calling for, the usual psychobabble nonsense to change mens ways, to follow Germany's example instead. ymmv.
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Wink...
I asked you to stop earlier and you persist. I think you need a little vacation, take a couple of days off.
I have to disagree with this just a little bit
Rape does indeed have something to do with sex, since it is the abuse of sex to inflict the abuse of power on someone else. In a sense it's the ultimate expression of contempt for another person - denying their personhood, reducing them to a thing to be used, abused and discarded. And, sadly, there will always be the kind of sexual psychopaths who commit rape. But it should never, ever be regarded as either "natural" or "normal".
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
You sd rape IS about sex, then contradicted yourself
That's sex? Guess I've been doing wrong, all along. No wonder I'm single.
It's (ab)using sex to *express* contempt
and really ought to have been left in the far barbaric past. But....
There is no justice. There can be no peace.
@TheOtherMaven
Such an excellent description/definition of rape. Well done, Maven.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
"Rape has nothing to do with sex"
is a political slogan, not a scientific fact.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
@UntimelyRippd UR,
UR, that statement operates on two levels.
1)Rape has nothing to do with sex (In other words, sex is in no way involved with rape. Obviously untrue).
2)Rape has nothing to do with sex (In other words, rape does not emerge from sexual desire, but from the desire to bully. The excitement felt by the rapist has little in common with the excitement felt by a person confronted with another human being who fits their definition of "hot," and a lot in common with the excitement felt by a bunch of school bullies giving the nerd a swirlie. A lot more true.)
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Neither assertion 1 nor 2 is scientifically demonstrated
fact, though many people do assert #2 as if it had been persuasively demonstrated somehow. It has not.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
@UntimelyRippd
Well, the anecdotal evidence of the repeated rapes I experienced supports it, but of course, that's anecdotal. It's convincing to me--how could it not be? but no, it's not a scientific study. There are anecdotes I have heard from many other women, as well, but those, too, are not scientific, as you point out.
Since I doubt there's going to be any scientific study done on this subject by anybody I would trust--funding mostly doesn't work that way anymore, particularly on highly charged topics with a large potential political impact--
We might as well agree to disagree.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
@Anja Geitz I'd like to
I'd like to go on record that I don't agree with Wink on this at all.
I find that doctrines that base themselves on biological destiny, essential identity, and other kinds of inevitability are usually authoritarian and in need of justifications for cruelty. I view them with suspicion.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
Well, there has been alot
of research on differences between men and women.
The brains of men and women are different; and the differences explain some of the inability to understand each other.
(My comment is not an attempt to justify rape)
dfarrah
If there weren't a real difference, measurable across
populations if not across every randomly selected pair of individuals, then transgenderism wouldn't have any coherent meaning.
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
Exactly. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
keep digging. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
@Anja Geitz I'd say
I'd say unexpressed thoughts haven't got jack to do with me. They're his problem. Once he starts expressing them, in words or actions, then they're my problem. And then he has a problem.
I ain't a little girl anymore.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
nice try
@irishking I care about
I care about zoe. I don't want her to leave.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
You don't find
it odd that the women who are most upset about harassment are the same ones who dismiss the diarist's and other mens' discomfort over being harassed by women?
dfarrah
@gjohnsit
Agree! Most people appreciate beauty; it's normal and natural to enjoy looking at an attractive person of the opposite (or whatever) sex, and it used to be considered flattering to have a lot of the opposite (or whatever) sex enjoy looking at you, as long as they're polite and not too-crudely complimentary.
Seems to me that society is being socially engineered into a whole lot of tiny, separate islands all terrified of being trampled, having been trampled and used as commodities in too many different ways... and in being conditioned to regard each other as 'competitors' or potential predators/prey in a dog-eat-dog world where everyone is being carefully divided from everyone else to weaken both the individual and the whole.
Psychopathy is not a political position, whether labeled 'conservatism', 'centrism' or 'left'.
A tin labeled 'coffee' may be a can of worms or pathology identified by a lack of empathy/willingness to harm others to achieve personal desires.
oh, please... n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
Exactly. n/t
the little things you can do are more valuable than the giant things you can't! - @thanatokephaloides. On Twitter @wink1radio. (-2.1) All about building progressive media.
@Anja Geitz Frankly, I have no idea
Frankly, I have no idea what this recent spate of accusations hopes to achieve, or what the motivation is behind them, but it seems that the potential backlash from the "believing all women" movement may very well share similar ties to the backlash that was felt from the Affirmative Action movement.
I think so too.
"More for Gore or the son of a drug lord--None of the above, fuck it, cut the cord."
--Zack de la Rocha
"I tell you I'll have nothing to do with the place...The roof of that hall is made of bones."
-- Fiver
FWIW Soledad has thread on
Twitter where she agrees with Matt Damon
A truth of the nuclear age/climate change: we can no longer have endless war and survive on this planet. Oh sh*t.
Of course there's a spectrum of behavior,
like there's a spectrum of stealing or committing violent acts, or whatever. That's why there are varying degrees of punishment. It does not mean there should be no punishment for lesser offenses, just different levels of punishment. There can be reprimands, suspensions, leave without pay, etc., instead of outright firing. I think most larger employers, especially in government, have employee relations programs that try to be fair and consistent in how they handle workplace incidents. The entertainment industry, which includes the media because they're not there to tell us the truth, are outside the norm because of the money involved. Not the money from paying out for sexual harassment cases. It's about public relations. So they tend to mete our punishment relative to their overall bottom line. I don't think that's the case with most of society.
Far back as I remember,
it was standard practice to warn all employees to not pursue relationships with co-workers. It was also common knowledge employees should not flirt, say things that made people uncomfortable, and do whatever else that inhibits people from doing their jobs. You're there to work for an employer, not to get a date or flirt with others.
It was warned that if you do, you're asking for trouble.
Let's see, how far back can I remember? Forty years, ya for sure.
Served me well, I never had a single incident. Sure, there were a few times me and a female coworker became pretty friendly, a couple times a consensual feeling emerged that we never pursued. But I found that acting like you're supposed to act went a long way towards avoiding any trouble, or blacklisting.
Evidently some people missed the memo, or they just decided to not pay it any attention.
Are there going to be instances where a someone accuses another falsely? Sure, always have been and always will be. I don't see what's happening now any different from the past. It will happen. It's up to the employer to have a fair and reasonable employee relations system to insure situations are handled properly, facts are accurately discerned, and any punishments handed out fairly and consistently.
What we're seeing now is a bunch of One Percenters getting caught and because of the high stakes involved, some employers might be rushing to judgment and/or meting out punishment that doesn't fit the crime. I don't see that trickling down to the rest of society.
You got nothing to worry about if you act like a normal and decent human being.
Thank you.
"The “jumpers” reminded us that one day we will all face only one choice and that is how we will die, not how we will live." Chris Hedges on 9/11
on the other hand, maybe it's a bizarre and ultimately
unworkable denial of human nature to tell human beings that the workplace is the workplace, and that while they're there, they're not supposed to be human beings. "You're here to work. Leave your humanity at the door for the next 8/9/10/14 hours. You can be a human when you're alone in your car on your 45-minute commute home. Or at least, as human as a human can manage to be, sitting alone and isolated in a big metal box moving at 75 miles an hour past/through/around/amidst a bunch of other big metal boxes with humans in them."
The earth is a multibillion-year-old sphere.
The Nazis killed millions of Jews.
On 9/11/01 a Boeing 757 (AA77) flew into the Pentagon.
AGCC is happening.
If you cannot accept these facts, I cannot fake an interest in any of your opinions.
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