Wednesday Open Thread: mind, matter and good vibrations
It's Day 2 of the Year 2019 CE, 1st Wednesday of the year
January 2, 2019, FWIW
"What's matter? Never mind. What's mind? No matter." Old when I was a kid, a change on the "mind-body problem". The problem is probably as old as consciousness and is arguably multiple interwoven problems. There is no definitive solution. In my teens I opted for believing that mind was a manifestation of matter, specifically neuronal activity within the brain and nervous system. I couldn't prove that, but could find no evidence really supportive of any other solution. In college I came to declare it a "non-problem" because of "el's rules of relevance" and moved on with my life. There was always a little twitch there because, unlike "das ding an sich" and similar issues, there was some potential for an empirical approach, but I had no plans to willingly shut down the brain in order to determine if the mind carried on or not. That, I figured, could wait.
(This essay, btw, is something of an unplanned extension of this prior essay pair: https://caucus99percent.com/content/wednesday-open-thread-models-maps-re... | https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/9/19/1794563/-Wednesday-Open-Threa... , which, in turn back references this older material https://caucus99percent.com/content/separate-reality-kossack-way-knowled... ; original: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/1/25/938809/- .)
OK, so this was occasioned by an article entitled The Hippies Were Right: It's All about Vibrations, Man! and subtitled A new theory of consciousness. The artile was in the December 12, 2018 Scientific American Weekly Review and can be read separately here: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-hippies-were-right... . In it the authors propose something of a fundamental or universal theory of consciousness, with implications of panpsychism, wide spread "consciousness" of at least some sort adhering in all matter. We get to the crux of the matter and the hook embedded in the title in the following two paragraphs:
Fast forward to the present era and we can ask ourselves now: Did the hippies actually solve this problem? My colleague Jonathan Schooler (University of California, Santa Barbara) and I think they effectively did, with the radical intuition that it’s all about vibrations … man. Over the past decade, we have developed a “resonance theory of consciousness” that suggests that resonance—another word for synchronized vibrations—is at the heart of not only human consciousness but of physical reality more generally.
So how were the hippies right? Well, we agree that vibrations, resonance, are the key mechanism behind human consciousness, as well as animal consciousness more generally. And, as I’ll discuss below, that they are the basic mechanism for all physical interactions to occur.
The idea or argument presented has a certain coherence and attractiveness given modern physics and the evolution thereof, the wave theory of matter and Schroedinger's wave equation, Huygens synchronization and a lot of other phenomena such as in an included list from Stephen Strogatz's book Sync. The author also points to neurophysicist Pascal Fries' work and his concept of “communication through coherence” or CTC. The author continues to assert that insofar as everything vibrates, everything has some modicum of consciousness. (It can be argued that not only does everything vibrate, but that everything is simply vibrations and nothing more but that's a whole other box of cats.) The consciousness inherent in an electron or rock is, however negligible, except for the famous talking rock quoted below. Aggregates, however, are a different matter, which depends upon coherence, integration, communication and resonance. Ah, resonance. Does that resonate with ya? In conclusion (more or less) he states:
Our resonance theory of consciousness attempts to provide a unified framework that includes neuroscience and the study of human consciousness, but also more fundamental questions of neurobiology and biophysics. It gets to the heart of the differences that matter when it comes to consciousness and the evolution of physical systems.
It is all about vibrations, but it’s also about the type of vibrations and, most importantly, about shared vibrations.
It is an interesting read and poorly summarized here and perhaps contains even a grain or wavelength of truth and inspiration. If nothing else, it permits we aging hippies to revisit some concepts and misconceptions from our youth as well as some common misinformation (The Beach Boys were never hip nor hippie just as they were never surf nor surfer. They were Jan and Dean in striped shirts.)
For what it's worth, it's short, so maybe give it a read, it can't hurt ya.
But what if something's rhythm is "offbeat"?
And, lastly, what, when you get down to it, is a vibration in space time other than a ripple in the fabric of reality?
Image is: Image from page 36 of "Principles of electro-medicine, electrosurgery and radiology"
Its an open thread so have at it. The floor is yours
.
Comments
Returning to youthful interests
Has been a real joy these last few months.
I find that I'm happiest building, working, writing, or doing anything involving creativity. When I can't do it, I'm unhappy. I love physical creations of my work. I guess it's the reason I've found so much of modern life unfulfilling. With martial arts or making something I can see measurable and definitive results.
So, maybe it is all vibrations, man... I have been having a lot of crazy ideas recently involving old ways of doing things, and have had a few brainstorms I really need to find an experimental space to try out. (I have some theories on molten silicate and quenching mediums, but the only people working with the stuff currently are University of Hawaii scientists studying Lava flows to try to save human habitation... Seriously... Ugh... Materials science makes way for the economic benefit of predicting the fucking future... Holy crap, did I just actually say that? I think I've officially become a Mad Scientist.)
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-upHSP9KU]
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
Good morning, detroit. Hey, creation is always good, right,
except when it isn't.> If it makes you happy and harms none, why not. Oscillations, harmonics, harmonies, harmony. If you're attuned or in tune, then things runs more smoothly I suspect, so again, why not.
OTOH, having a quench tub of molten silicate laying around the shop is very difficult to envision. Enjoy yourself and have a great year.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
LOL... not quite.
The theory is actually the opposite of what you're envisioning. It has to do with formation of glass fractures from silicate when quenched. Since Glass normally must be cooled slowly to avoid cracking, I'm wondering if there's a potential to form an artificial stress point using a quenching medium to create the requisite differences in expansion and viscosity.
Essentially, I'm wondering if it's possible to create synthetic Obsidian with a predetermined fracture point for industrial/personal use. The theory is that replicating the conditions under which obsidian forms (Rapid cooling of Silicate in seawater) creates a unpredictable fracture pattern. I'm wondering if it can be stabilized by the possible use of another quenching medium, akin to how blacksmiths quench a blade slightly slower in oil rather than water, but still quickly enough to create a hardened and sharp edge.
That's the theory, anyway. Totally one that would require a LOT of testing.
I do not pretend I know what I do not know.
The "mind-body connection" supposedly was that
the mind could make the body sick or well, as Sigmund Freud had said.
Until someone shows me a functioning mind without a body, other than in science fiction, I am assuming that the mind and body are one. And, here comes the unpopular part: However, if one does govern the other, my view is that the body that affects the mind.
It doesn't really matter if I am right or wrong, given that I am not treating anyone, but that is my view.
As always, thank you, el.
Good morning HAW. I tend to ascribe to your view myself,
but see it as more symbiotic. "They", to the extent separable, intract and influence each other. We know brain damage can alter mental functioning, and we are learning that the gut can influence brain functioning, but there is also evidence that thoughts can, under some circumstances, influence bodily functioning. Like you, I await evidence of a disembodied mind. Harmonic vibrations can destroy bridges and cut steel, but we've yet to see anybody pull off the mind-meld or anything like it.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Thanks, el!
Good morning
Let's see...my mind is embodied by my body, but my body doesn't mind. No that's not it ...my body won't mind my mind cause it's not just anybody. Oh well it's above my pay grade. The peter principle in action.
Regardless of the conclusion finding harmony of mind and body is the goal, as well as the harmony of person and planet. Hope your day is harmonious!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
Good morning, lookout. I agree wholeheartedly with this:
Ever since some time in the mid-sixties I've always idly wondered what would happen if, at 00:00:00 UT on some specific date everybody in the world would play an e-flat at maximum volume/amplitude on whatever instrument or playback device they had available. Probably nothing beyond massive global annoyance.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
My buddy postulates...
we would have world peace if everyone were to smoke a joint or eat a brownie at the same time (4:20?). Of course the consequences of a case of simultaneous global munchies might be problematic.
Have a good one!
“Until justice rolls down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.”
have a good one yourself, amigo.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
If you don't mind
It doesn't matter
This topic fascinates. Since all life vibrates at certain frequencies, and different frequencies affect other frequencies, wonder how the man-made frequencies (electronic type like RF) affect our individual frequency patterns. And therefore our thought patterns. Suspect the bombardment of vibrational waves has some code imbedded in the noise. Know of any research involving this?
Good morning, QMS. Beyond subliminal audio, I know of
no experimentation in that area but I'm sure that the spook community (CIA, KGB, MI-whatever) has done their best to pull it off, and lack of any evidence that it is ongoing is quite likely to constitute evidence that they failed. The best they seem to be able to come up with is acoustic devices to create pain and nausea. You know that they wouldn't be fucking around with that stuff if they could actually imprint thoughts on us or even disrupt thinking.
Have a great day and year.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
And a good morning to you sir
I should do more research. I know it has been proven that cell phone signals effect the brain from cancer research studies. But that info is obscured by involved industries. Like microwaves. I do feel the vibes when holstering phone near my Titanium hip. Also aware of the effects of radar on round organs in the body (like eyes and gonads) from personal experience.
The theory is along the lines of perception management. Studies have shown a reduced ability to learn in children exposed to more than 3 hours of television on a regular basis. Although the flicker rate is too fine for normal perception, I wonder if the fields produced by LCD's and the like have an effect upon our internal harmonics. More study is needed.
Cheers!
I just wrote a long response which vanished when I tried to
post it because I wasn't authorized to post. I somehow got logged out in mid post. I'll try to recall it a bit later on.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I hate it when that happens
several of my longer scribes went to the same place in never ether land. Like the dog that ate my opus. Prolly did me a favor.
I read that at 3 pm today Trump is meeting
with Democrat and Republican leaders in the White House to 'cut a deal'.
Isn't that something? /s
What is that something?
[video:https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0]
https://www.euronews.com/live
Funk him
… and his shitty deal making.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
Good morning, Tim. Thanks for reading and posting that vid.
Have a good one and a great new year.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Heh, good morning, mimi. Maybe they'll simultaneously fund
the wall and create a fund for its destruction and removal by the younger generation?
Have a good one and a great year.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Because 2007 was so great, do it again
“Imagine a State of the Union with the government closed”. Okay! hopes
dash it
there's no place like home
there's no place like home
there's no place like home
Sonoma County homeless population among the biggest nationwide Thompson and Huffman, representing.
oops! we're capitalists
Don't look behind the curtain, vote D!
UniParty 2020
no bomb too small
Did people really think the Beach Boys were hip or hippies ?
I never did. I do think Brian Wilson is a genius of popular song.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ji0ZE0jpcg width:500 height:300]
I'll check out that essay.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Brian Wilson was a big Owsley Stanley supporter
Owlsley Stanley
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
That may well be, but still ...
I mean, a lot of people tripped a little and many bands gave a nod to the psychedelic thing but there was a real difference between the scenes in NoCal and SoCal. I'm sure e.l. will "bear" me out on this.
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Tru Dat
Originally I was going to go with a Glen Campbell reference.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
Heh. We were at one point under curfew enforced by the
national guard when there was a knock on the door. It was a old buddy from LA who had decided to come see us, hopped in his car, and smoked a few while listening to music tapes the whole way. His greeting was something like:
Yeah, it was a tad different.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Good morning, Az. All I can say is that it's called
"The San Francisco Sound", there were great concerts everywhere all the time, a veritable sea of medications of all kinds and a certain spirit, viewpoint and mindset partially carried over from the beats and partly derived from the Berkeley radicals. It all was, afaik, pretty absent down south. Every time I wandered back to the San Diego-L.A. area to visit old buds and family I found that they had no idea. I recall once I discovered some old folkies had finally discovered the Beatles via Sargent Pepper's, but had never heard of Country Joe and The Fish, The Dead, Big Brother, Quicksilver, etc., while the more rock and roll oriented hadn't either, but were all Loving Spoonful/Mammas and Papas, etc., though some of the latter were hip to the Mothers of Invention.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
CAn't recall how much that leaks into that article, but there
are tons of folks who are sure that BW was a genius, that the later BBs were cool and hip, and that the ealy BBs were surf. All of those things are false, but it is a powerful myth and a pet peeve of mine.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Well ...
A lot of people rave about Pet Sounds and Surf's Up is not about surfing.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ZjIdyWu-U width:400 height:240]
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
SOS
New year same old shit.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
That song has bugged me since I first heard it. You want change
you go make change, or at least try. Waiting doesn't change anything. Huelga! Venceremos! etc.!
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Wherever I go
Things change. I have a low stupidity threshold, and don't mince words. So far, so good. I have not been accosted. The Kavanaugh supporter @ the brew pub steers clear of me, as does the god and guns guy @ the gym and our former state legislator. During the early voting, I told the state legislator he was an asshole and I wouldn't vote for him, if he were running unopposed. Along with calling him a butt kissing, boot licking, Americans for Prosperity shill, who is too stupid to represent me. After the election, I stopped in his campaign headquarters to wish him luck finding a new job. I didn't mean it, I just wanted to rub in the loss. Fuck you, Chris Malone (see controversies).
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
I don't feel qualified in any scientific way to comment
On vibrations being conscious or not conscious. But I do feel there is a logical connection between stress in the mind and dis-ease in the body. In fact, I believe it can actually work both ways. There have been studies on gut related issues where connections between the drop of serotonin in the brain is related to the health of your digestive tract. That finding in and of itself is fascinating to me, as I firmly believe that the American diet of sugar and starch is debilitating us in a myriad of ways.
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Depends
… on whether it puts the boogie in your butt.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
Well, my butt is definitely conscious
And I do like to shake it once in awhile
[video:https://youtu.be/l3fZuW-aJsg]
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Good morning, zoebear.
There is an accellerating mass of formal studies ofvarious gut-brain connections. Watch this space for one of the latest dribbles.
Have a great one.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
I'm very pleased to hear that!
Thank you, EL. This is a subject that is very interesting to me, and one that has touched my family in very real ways. I look forward to further dribblings
There is always Music amongst the trees in the Garden, but our hearts must be very quiet to hear it. ~ Minnie Aumonier
Here's a small sample of some of the articles, extracts out
there as of last week.
oops, link broken. try https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=gut+to+brain+signalling+pathways&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Wave forms
I spent ~30 years as a controls engineer. Many of those years doing closed loop motor control. The more precise controls used resolvers generating a Sine wave for each motor rotation. Then using trigonometry to determine the position, within the rotation, of the motor shaft. Others used encoders generating a square wave pulse train. An absolute system would use multiple feedback devices to facilitate the calculations establishing the machines position without executing a homing algorithm.
I have a bunch of stories, but I will leave you with this. Never trust a digital control system/machine to do what it is supposed to do. It could be hazardous to your health. Stay out of the range of motion of a machine, AT ALL TIMES!
OK, one story. I led the project to integrate the crank shaft and cam shaft grinders for the GM Quad Four Engine. Controllers and human interfaces were more rudimentary, so we had to convert back and forth between sign magnitude
and two's complement. The conversion algorithm did not bother to strip the sign bit for zero, a boundary condition brain fart. The grinders were being run through their paces and one was stopped by commanding zero speed for the grinding wheel base carriage. The grinding wheels and part were still spinning, and the wheel base was not perceivably moving. Except it was slowly moving into the part. A group of us were standing around talking about what to do next, when the grinding wheels made contact with the part and continued to feed into the part partially disintegrating a grinding wheel. A chunk of grinding wheel, about the size of a baseball, flew out of the machine, cleared the adjacent machine and put a hole in one of those old school wooden tool boxes. Thank goodness it hit the tool box and not a person.
Notice the fingers that ride on the part and say Marposs? That is a gauging system to determine when the part is the right size. The gauging system is setup to stop grinding just before the desired size, and the part shrinks to the correct size when it cools.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
This stuff trips me out ...
Mechanical fire control computers.
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD2dtAqJcJ4&t=74s width:500 height:300]
[video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdZZuteFZfo&t=244s width:500 height:300]
We wanted decent healthcare, a living wage and free college.
The Democrats gave us Biden and war instead.
Digital control algorithms replicated
… many of the old mechanical systems. Things like electronic camming and virtual line shaft. I wrote the software to convert this from a progressive machining mechanical cam system to electronic control. The change over facilitated small part runs and quick part change over.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
A good friend
has run a screw machine shop outside Destoyit.
Heavy duty machines.
For the auto industry.
The cutting oil kilt im.
I was at the OEM
The noise of each machine is like listening to an engine with no valve covers. The guys that worked there didn't wear ear protection. I was dumbfounded.
The cutting fluid and lube is some nasty shit. I was a prissy engineer who would get the guy wearing coveralls to do the dirty stuff, and run their machine tool. One of the jobs had a pink eye outbreak attributed to the lube.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
May the ghost of Norbert Weiner protect and serve you.
I have stuff I can't tell about the massive work that went into trying to make computerized one-armed bandits act and feel like the real thing.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
Likewise
DOD stuff. I evolved into a high availability, SIL practitioner. Requiring, hazops analysis, failure mode analysis and MTBF/MTTR analysis. I worked on a floating pork system.
A bunch of the video is wrong. No way any of them know where it came from, or where it is going.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
I was more of an Alonzo Church accolite
Alonzo Church
I had theory of computability classes with Gerald Massey, an Alonzo Church associate.
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. - Friedrich Nietzsche -
good morning el
et al...
lotta space between all those spinning electrons ...inter space... trails, vibes and grooves, woo hoo
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Good morning, magi. Mostly empty space, of course, though
fields permeate everything. If you could perfectly sync your hand and the wall, could you reach through it?
Have a good one and a great year.
That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --
you too el...
have a great year... and a great day
Stop Climate Change Silence - Start the Conversation
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